A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Angelo]

Such a sweeping statement when there was a civil war fought in the south over the terms of the treaty which left the 6 counties behind and in the present day opinion polls have shown a consistent desire for a UI in the 26

The politicians have a funny way of showing it. Micheal Martin couldn't come across more indifferent if he tried. For someone who is leader of a party that purports to be Republican, he seems more concerned about SF (and therefore delaying a UI) than he does about promoting reunification of this country. It confirms the impression many people in the north have about FF and FG, all they care about is power - much like the DUP.

A united Ireland is very much a fringe issue in the Republic - at best

It is a total non-issue at election time

The Republic voted to give up its territorial claim over the North in 1998

And so too did Nationalists in the North vote for it to do so

The economy, health, housing and taxes  were the main issues at the last election in the south. Brexit wasn't a factor and a united Ireland was irrelevant to the majority of people.

You think FF/FG are indifferent to reunification, but the reality is it's most of the country. Political parties won't focus their efforts on something that people don't care about and won't get them votes

For most people they want to see a united Ireland in theory but it's a minor issue compared with the likes of above

And it's to the eternal shame of any Irish person in the 26 counties if they regard the independence of their own country as "a minor issue". The sort of people that wouldn't know a principle if it jimped up and bit them in the ass.

Most people are concerned day to day with family, school, work, money, chasing women etc. And given that reunification has not been a live political issue or prospect for most people alive in the south, its hardly going to be at the forefront of their thinking, politically, especially for those living far from the border. The south is not the north, were unification is a majorly divisive topic and the Troubles were a real, everyday part of life. Most people in the south would support reunificiation in theory, and, IMO would happily endorse a united Ireland if it actually came down to it. For years though, its been neither divisive enough nor a sufficiently realistic prospect that it would be a subject of debate or emotion in the south.

The only person I ever had a debate with in my life about NI politics and a united Ireland was a protestant woman from the north I went out with years ago. Everyone else I knew was pretty much of the same mind: we wish the north could become/remain peaceful and normal, and if it every became a possibility, we'd like to see a united Ireland. Outside of that, there was nothing to get exercised about among the vast majority of Irish people in the south.

And what's your take of southern politicians of FFG launching into a "But the IRA" type deflect tactics when one party brings up legacy issues of innocent troubles victims? What has the free state establishment ever done for victims of British state terrorism on this island?

I can't speak to that Angelo.

I've been in the US close to two decades now, so I'm not up to date on day to day hand waving or hypocrisy of leading Irish politicians.

My point was a more general one about what could be perceived, probably correctly, as complacency or indifference on the part of the general southern population with respect to the lives of people in the north. If it came down to it, I'm sure many of us would also have the same disconnect with what goes on or went on in inner city Dublin or Limerick.

My issue would be with the political establishment and their disgraceful, polarising attitude to northern nationalist, to their revisionism of the troubles - a conflict which they played a very active role in enflaming.

I think for anyone to say the policies, actions and statements from FFG politicians for decades have been nothing short of disgusting through the years.

There is a sense of where the free state looks down on northern nationalists - look at the GAA coverage, look at the way Ulster football is characterised, stereotyped and lampooned. You felt a hostility when you travelled south for matches. I know I felt it - not in the border counties mind but the further south you went.

I recall an interview Ricey gave about a decade ago where he spoke about that very subject and how you could sense that lingering animosity when you went down south. Tyrone's glory years kind of aligned with Armagh in that early 00s period. I'm sure the Armagh lads probably felt some of that too, Tyrone were characterised as a sneaky team who got where they were by cheating. Armagh were characterised as a bunch of aggressive gym monkeys who went out to play the macho man act and only got where they were by thuggery. Whereas Galway and Kerry and the likes were pure footballers who didn't engage in any of that who would never dare engage in any nonsense. This Dublin team are a team of model professionals and humanitarians. Gaelic football is just a subset of that culture that exists down south where northern nationalists are bogey men.

You see that type of mentality here too. Dublin7, Hound, Rossfan and a few more are master purveyors of it.

There is a culture in the south whereby caricatures of northern nationalists has been set, negative ones. The Troubles have been rewritten, whereas it was alright for the Free State to disappear hundreds, to knock off RIC officers, where civil war was accepted. For notherners we were animals to fight back against a sectarian state, to not turn a blind eye to the murders of our friends, neighbours and families, to not take being burned out of homes and denied the same rights to voting, jobs, education as the other section our community lying down. This narrative has been spun for decades by the Free State establishment politicians in the south and by the media which they control and regulate very tightly.

[J70]

Such a sweeping statement when there was a civil war fought in the south over the terms of the treaty which left the 6 counties behind and in the present day opinion polls have shown a consistent desire for a UI in the 26

The politicians have a funny way of showing it. Micheal Martin couldn't come across more indifferent if he tried. For someone who is leader of a party that purports to be Republican, he seems more concerned about SF (and therefore delaying a UI) than he does about promoting reunification of this country. It confirms the impression many people in the north have about FF and FG, all they care about is power - much like the DUP.

A united Ireland is very much a fringe issue in the Republic - at best

It is a total non-issue at election time

The Republic voted to give up its territorial claim over the North in 1998

And so too did Nationalists in the North vote for it to do so

The economy, health, housing and taxes  were the main issues at the last election in the south. Brexit wasn't a factor and a united Ireland was irrelevant to the majority of people.

You think FF/FG are indifferent to reunification, but the reality is it's most of the country. Political parties won't focus their efforts on something that people don't care about and won't get them votes

For most people they want to see a united Ireland in theory but it's a minor issue compared with the likes of above

And it's to the eternal shame of any Irish person in the 26 counties if they regard the independence of their own country as "a minor issue". The sort of people that wouldn't know a principle if it jimped up and bit them in the ass.

Most people are concerned day to day with family, school, work, money, chasing women etc. And given that reunification has not been a live political issue or prospect for most people alive in the south, its hardly going to be at the forefront of their thinking, politically, especially for those living far from the border. The south is not the north, were unification is a majorly divisive topic and the Troubles were a real, everyday part of life. Most people in the south would support reunificiation in theory, and, IMO would happily endorse a united Ireland if it actually came down to it. For years though, its been neither divisive enough nor a sufficiently realistic prospect that it would be a subject of debate or emotion in the south.

The only person I ever had a debate with in my life about NI politics and a united Ireland was a protestant woman from the north I went out with years ago. Everyone else I knew was pretty much of the same mind: we wish the north could become/remain peaceful and normal, and if it every became a possibility, we'd like to see a united Ireland. Outside of that, there was nothing to get exercised about among the vast majority of Irish people in the south.

I've no doubt that a majority are in favour of reunification, but the reality is that there is a significant number of people in the south who are deeply partitionist. The latest opinion poll in the south showed something like a third of those polled who said they just did not want a united Ireland.

And I 100% understand that people are most concerned about their own family/work/school etc. Believe it or not, people's daily priorities in the north are identical. That doesn't mean other things can't be regarded as important too. Or that an "I'm alright Jack" attitude is excusable. People in the south can want the best for family/work etc, and still regard the fact that their own country is partitioned as being more than some "minor issue".

But people in the south haven't had to live with the consequences of partition, or if they did, they are now a few generations removed from the really serious live effects of it. Its an abstract issue not directly affecting them, the same as what takes place in some inner city block of flats or, for a family not affected, a serious illness or death of a young person. In terms of issues not directly affecting them personally, some people might get interested in homelessness, some environmentalism, others Sinn Fein politics. Everyone has an "I'm all right Jack/its not my problem" attitude to most things. Its the way of the world unfortunately, especially when you may have other overriding concerns politically.

[J70]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

[sid waddell]

Sure the only difference between the current dissos and the PIRA is that the PIRA surrendered

No Shinnerbot has ever given a credible explanation of any difference

[6th sam]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

There is no doubt that the hand wringing hypocrisy of many politicians in the south is hard to stomach . This is a cause celebre of FFG, with self-preservation in mind in the midst of SF progress. That said , If SF want to get into power they are going to have to be more proactive in making links with others ie potential coalition partners . Regardless of the reasons behind the IRA campaign , there are several victims of that campaign , and a fulsome apology for the hurt caused to so many is the only way SF can  gain real respect from the middle ground.  Not least because It's an open goal for FFG & their media puppets to bring up IRA atrocities , when they need to. More importantly such an apology puts victims at the top of the agenda, where they deserve to be.

[pbat]

Rep. Kevin J. Boyle
@RepKevinBoyle
Happy St Patrick's Day! This is the special day people living across the world recognize & celebrate their Irish heritage. May this be one of the last holidays before at long last there is a free & united Ireland! Flag of United States Flag of Ireland Shamrock
7:17 pm · 17 Mar 2021·Twitter for iPhone

Pity we hadn't a few more at home like the Boyle Brothers.

[Rossfan]

He won't have a vote in the Referendum 

[Snapchap]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

Credit where it's due, J70. You are big enough to admit the hypocrisy exists. While it's glaringly obvious to see it, many people (and there is abundance of evidence on this board alone) will perform the most spectacular, gold medal standard mental gymnastics to deny it.

I also appreciate your reasoned arguments about why some in the south are ambivilant to the partition of their own country. Were I typing this on computer, and were I not trying to relax with a drink, I'd be minded to put forward a more lengthy reply to your individual points but all I will say for now is to re-state a point I already made. Nationalists in the north, even those of a generation which never endured conflict, have the same day-to-day concerns as those in the south but also understand that:
(i) no matter what side of the border you live, its the same country of ours which was partitioned
(ii) This partitioning has been an economic, social and cultural disaster for the whole island
(iii) When there is such a firm sense of having been disowned and left to the wolves by one's own, it would be nice to feel like there might be some effort to make ammends, rather than double down on the abandonment by not heartily supporting reunification.

[Snapchap]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

There is no doubt that the hand wringing hypocrisy of many politicians in the south is hard to stomach . This is a cause celebre of FFG, with self-preservation in mind in the midst of SF progress. That said , If SF want to get into power they are going to have to be more proactive in making links with others ie potential coalition partners . Regardless of the reasons behind the IRA campaign , there are several victims of that campaign , and a fulsome apology for the hurt caused to so many is the only way SF can  gain real respect from the middle ground.  Not least because It's an open goal for FFG & their media puppets to bring up IRA atrocities , when they need to. More importantly such an apology puts victims at the top of the agenda, where they deserve to be.

The IRA already did apologise for the civilian deaths it caused. 19 years ago.

[sid waddell]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Sure that would be to say that all armed campaigns are morally equivalent, because horrible things happen in all armed campaigns

It would be to say that the Nazi invasions of Poland and Russia were morally equivalent to the Allied campaign of invasion post D-Day

The pertinent comparison is between the dissos and the PIRA

No difference between them whatsoever - both futile campaigns of murder with no hope whatsoever of achieving their political aim - a united Ireland

And none of the Shinners here have ever admitted this

There's no difference between Omagh and what the PIRA did

None at all

[general_lee]

Such a sweeping statement when there was a civil war fought in the south over the terms of the treaty which left the 6 counties behind and in the present day opinion polls have shown a consistent desire for a UI in the 26

The politicians have a funny way of showing it. Micheal Martin couldn't come across more indifferent if he tried. For someone who is leader of a party that purports to be Republican, he seems more concerned about SF (and therefore delaying a UI) than he does about promoting reunification of this country. It confirms the impression many people in the north have about FF and FG, all they care about is power - much like the DUP.

A united Ireland is very much a fringe issue in the Republic - at best

It is a total non-issue at election time

The Republic voted to give up its territorial claim over the North in 1998

And so too did Nationalists in the North vote for it to do so

The economy, health, housing and taxes  were the main issues at the last election in the south. Brexit wasn't a factor and a united Ireland was irrelevant to the majority of people.

You think FF/FG are indifferent to reunification, but the reality is it's most of the country. Political parties won't focus their efforts on something that people don't care about and won't get them votes

For most people they want to see a united Ireland in theory but it's a minor issue compared with the likes of above

And it's to the eternal shame of any Irish person in the 26 counties if they regard the independence of their own country as "a minor issue". The sort of people that wouldn't know a principle if it jimped up and bit them in the ass.

Most people are concerned day to day with family, school, work, money, chasing women etc. And given that reunification has not been a live political issue or prospect for most people alive in the south, its hardly going to be at the forefront of their thinking, politically, especially for those living far from the border. The south is not the north, were unification is a majorly divisive topic and the Troubles were a real, everyday part of life. Most people in the south would support reunificiation in theory, and, IMO would happily endorse a united Ireland if it actually came down to it. For years though, its been neither divisive enough nor a sufficiently realistic prospect that it would be a subject of debate or emotion in the south.

The only person I ever had a debate with in my life about NI politics and a united Ireland was a protestant woman from the north I went out with years ago. Everyone else I knew was pretty much of the same mind: we wish the north could become/remain peaceful and normal, and if it every became a possibility, we'd like to see a united Ireland. Outside of that, there was nothing to get exercised about among the vast majority of Irish people in the south.

J70 that's quite a good summation of attitudes in the 26. Can't really argue against any of it, but like you say, the majority of people are in favour of reunification in principle, but have other pressing issues on their minds. Certainly from talking to relatives this seems to be the case. That said however it's  time parties in the Dail other than SF started agitating for it instead of against. Where we are now is not a final settlement. I think project NI has failed, Brexit has opened a can of worms and relations between UK and EU aren't going to improve anytime soon. The north is left in the middle and it's really time to start "circling the wagons" for want of a better term. Make hay and all that.

[dublin7]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

Credit where it's due, J70. You are big enough to admit the hypocrisy exists. While it's glaringly obvious to see it, many people (and there is abundance of evidence on this board alone) will perform the most spectacular, gold medal standard mental gymnastics to deny it.

I also appreciate your reasoned arguments about why some in the south are ambivilant to the partition of their own country. Were I typing this on computer, and were I not trying to relax with a drink, I'd be minded to put forward a more lengthy reply to your individual points but all I will say for now is to re-state a point I already made. Nationalists in the north, even those of a generation which never endured conflict, have the same day-to-day concerns as those in the south but also understand that:
(i) no matter what side of the border you live, its the same country of ours which was partitioned
(ii) This partitioning has been an economic, social and cultural disaster for the whole island
(iii) When there is such a firm sense of having been disowned and left to the wolves by one's own, it would be nice to feel like there might be some effort to make ammends, rather than double down on the abandonment by not heartily supporting reunification.

How has partition been an economic disaster for the south? Ireland had a strong economy (pre covid) and it was growing annually. Our corporation tax rate has encouraged numerous multi nationals to base branches here and while people can question the amount of tax they pay, the taxes, spending etc of all the employees working for them help grow the economy on national and local levels

[general_lee]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Ok Sid, a number of British soldiers are ambushed by the IRA in their fight against British rule. They unmercifully emptied their magazines into these young men, brutally executed by the side of the road in cold blood.

I'm not telling you what county it happened in or what year.

Morally justified or not?

[general_lee]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

Credit where it's due, J70. You are big enough to admit the hypocrisy exists. While it's glaringly obvious to see it, many people (and there is abundance of evidence on this board alone) will perform the most spectacular, gold medal standard mental gymnastics to deny it.

I also appreciate your reasoned arguments about why some in the south are ambivilant to the partition of their own country. Were I typing this on computer, and were I not trying to relax with a drink, I'd be minded to put forward a more lengthy reply to your individual points but all I will say for now is to re-state a point I already made. Nationalists in the north, even those of a generation which never endured conflict, have the same day-to-day concerns as those in the south but also understand that:
(i) no matter what side of the border you live, its the same country of ours which was partitioned
(ii) This partitioning has been an economic, social and cultural disaster for the whole island
(iii) When there is such a firm sense of having been disowned and left to the wolves by one's own, it would be nice to feel like there might be some effort to make ammends, rather than double down on the abandonment by not heartily supporting reunification.

How has partition been an economic disaster for the south? Ireland had a strong economy (pre covid) and it was growing annually. Our corporation tax rate has encouraged numerous multi nationals to base branches here and while people can question the amount of tax they pay, the taxes, spending etc of all the employees working for them help grow the economy on national and local levels

Ask the people in border counties

[Angelo]

Angelo mentioned the hypocrisy of the south with respect our celebrating the brutal War of Independence and civil war, while abhorring the role and conduct of the IRA in the Troubles.

I think its a fair point and one I've never personally been able to reconcile.

Maybe its the distance and abstractness thing again. Its easier to revere and honour battles and brutality from the distant past than the violent, bloody mayhem and sorrow you're seeing on the TV and in the papers every day. Or maybe the founding myths and celebrating 1916 and all that is just jingoistic lip service.

Credit where it's due, J70. You are big enough to admit the hypocrisy exists. While it's glaringly obvious to see it, many people (and there is abundance of evidence on this board alone) will perform the most spectacular, gold medal standard mental gymnastics to deny it.

I also appreciate your reasoned arguments about why some in the south are ambivilant to the partition of their own country. Were I typing this on computer, and were I not trying to relax with a drink, I'd be minded to put forward a more lengthy reply to your individual points but all I will say for now is to re-state a point I already made. Nationalists in the north, even those of a generation which never endured conflict, have the same day-to-day concerns as those in the south but also understand that:
(i) no matter what side of the border you live, its the same country of ours which was partitioned
(ii) This partitioning has been an economic, social and cultural disaster for the whole island
(iii) When there is such a firm sense of having been disowned and left to the wolves by one's own, it would be nice to feel like there might be some effort to make ammends, rather than double down on the abandonment by not heartily supporting reunification.

The final point there is key to me.

As you said, northern nationalists were fed to the wolves. There's never been any contrition or even acknowledgement of this from the Free State. Instead after they left a beleaguered people to fight their own battle against a violent sectarian pogrom they had the temerity and arrogance to pontificate about northern nationalists fighting back in a similar manner to the FS.

The hypocrisy with history down south is off the charts.