A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Angelo]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

[Angelo]

Clearly you dropped out of school very early and can't read, my earlier post that you replied to covered that. I don't want to be part of your rotten state. Reunification is about the end of two rotten states and the formation of a new state. It's frustrating having to deal with people like you and having to repeat myself because you are a little bit dim but here it goes. My earlier post, that you quoted and replied to, the important bits in bold.

The problem with a lot of partitionists down south is that they think it's a case of the north joining their state, it will be nothing of the sort. It will be a new state forming from two failed ones.

You are of course correct that both states on the island have failed. Both are indeed rotten to the core.

But I can't see how reunification would cure this. The branding will be different, but the rottenness will remain.

Depends if you root the rottenness out.

It will certainly change the political landscape.

Who's going to root out anything? People are still going to vote for the same rubbish politicians that they have always voted for.

It changes the landscape. Time would tell anyway. Unionism have ruled the roost in the O6 for a century.

FF/FG down south for a history, reunification changes that.

It does Angelo but at the same time you need to understand that the thought of SF calling the shots in a UI Government will scare the bejaysus out of the middle ground needed in the wee 6 to actually achieve a UI.

I know the Shinners want a socialist 32 County republic, but I'd take a 32 county republic for the hear and now and work on the socialist aspect at a later date and to that end I think a 32 county Ireland has more chance of happening with the likes of a Coveney at the helm of a coalition government than Mary Lou or even Pierce Doherty at the helm.

Shinners should seriously think about stepping aside to allow a united Ireland to actually happen.

+1

There is another issue with that though, in that if SF step aside, there are no other parties making a serious push for it

I am not convinced that either of the main parties in the 26 are serious about it as a concept

The reality of reunification is SF will be the kingmakers, they are by far and away the largest party on this island presently and there's no getting away from that reality.

Neither FF or FG want this, although I do think FF are much more divided on this internally but Martin is definitely a partitionist and closely aligned with the element of the party tainted in corruption and vested interests.

If we get a UI SF will lose its steam, history has taught us that. They will be just another party with no USP and a fairly low calibre of politician.

SF are the largest party on this presently, a UI will see them have their chance at power and the people will then judge them on it.

[OgraAnDun]

We'd be better off just getting reunification first and working out our differences after...

[clonadmad]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

100%
I worked all over the republic in 2000's, totally blown away by economic growth, and yes Dublin still gets most investment but the amount of work outside Dublin also(medical device etc) is very impressive.

the Dublin Belfast Corridor would be a powerhouse of Industry in a UI and that's not discounting the need for a balanced regional plan for everywhere else on the island also

its madness for example that there's no motorway between Derry and Belfast or between Limerick and Cork and that's just for starters.

You hear the narrative the whole time of the South cant afford us.

well maybe if the northern section of the economy was to double to €80bn or €90bn in a United Ireland economy,there wouldnt any issue with it paying its way and even at that its under performing pro rata to what it should be at €120bn.

In blunt terms the NI economy is performing at a third of its potential relative to the south

[yellowcard]

Demographics are destiny and this clamour for a border poll is only going to move in one direction. The outworkings of Brexit and the very fact that a hardline ERG type Tory government have allowed the north to be cast slightly adrift is a very significant decision in itself. Whilst I don't think that it is immediately impending, I think that a border poll will happen within 5-15 years. The only thing that would accelerate that, would be a successful Scottish Indy Referendum. Were that to happen the UK would be finished as a credible entity anyway.

There is a Census in the north this year after which it will confirm another slight move towards a pro nationalist majority but the battle ground in any future poll will be the 20% of others in the middle. That is where the argument will be won or lost - with Alliance type voters. Therefore there must be solid economic reasons presented. Long term I believe it is in everyone's best economic interests to see a unified island but most people don't look beyond the next few years. Will a post EU English government continue to pay £11bn annually to subsidise the state ad infinitum, I'm not so sure.   

SF being in government in the south (which is quite likely by the time any poll is called) may actually hinder the chance of a successful poll result in the north. Then there is a whole argument as to how a 'New Ireland' or whatever you want to call it will look like. There is a whole host of work to be carried out before any successful poll campaign.

[clonadmad]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

you are sounding more and more like Jim Alister with every passing comment son.

200,000 on NHS waiting lists in NI

10,000 Families Homeless in NI

[trailer]

Anyone who is bemoaning the state of the ROI and ignoring the state of NI, in which lets not forget SF have been in power for over 10 years would want to just steady up and think about that. NI's government is a mess. It's CS is bloated, incompetent, overpaid and underworked. The massive, massive financial benefits to reunification just cannot be ignored.

Additionally with the Irish Sea Border and the inability to ship goods from GB to NI has already started a shift towards the ROI and EU. Supply lines change. Businesses adapt and overcome. The reunification process won't be just the case of a vote and then a huge change, it has already started ever so slowly and quietly. It'll be so subtle that you'll not even notice it.

[Angelo]

Anyone who is bemoaning the state of the ROI and ignoring the state of NI, in which lets not forget SF have been in power for over 10 years would want to just steady up and think about that. NI's government is a mess. It's CS is bloated, incompetent, overpaid and underworked. The massive, massive financial benefits to reunification just cannot be ignored.

Additionally with the Irish Sea Border and the inability to ship goods from GB to NI has already started a shift towards the ROI and EU. Supply lines change. Businesses adapt and overcome. The reunification process won't be just the case of a vote and then a huge change, it has already started ever so slowly and quietly. It'll be so subtle that you'll not even notice it.

The assembly has no power and a loyalist veto.

I wouldn't expect you to grasp the complexities.

[Angelo]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

you are sounding more and more like Jim Alister with every passing comment son.

200,000 on NHS waiting lists in NI

10,000 Families Homeless in NI

And? Who is saying the O6 is a success?

Where have I defended the O6? I've repeatedly said both states are failed states. What part of that statement I've repeated multiple times are you failing to grasp?

[Applesisapples]

The problem those seeking a UI has, is not solely persuading unionists or the undecided. Many nationalists, and I would be one, need to be convinced that our standard of living will not be impaired. I cannot see wages increasing adequately in a UI to cover the increase in living costs. Furthermore having reached a certain age I am very conscious that I will be relying on the health service more and more. When I was younger I would have risked these things. Much as I want to see a UI, I have not seen detail on these issues other than claim and counter claim.

[clonadmad]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

you are sounding more and more like Jim Alister with every passing comment son.

200,000 on NHS waiting lists in NI

10,000 Families Homeless in NI

And? Who is saying the O6 is a success?

Where have I defended the O6? I've repeatedly said both states are failed states. What part of that statement I've repeated multiple times are you failing to grasp?

The Republic is not a failed state by any metric you wish to employ,bitterness blinds you to that

Your probably one of those work shy handout out addicted Shinner fucks who's pining for a 32 socialist state which means the color of your handout money will change and life will continue on,except this time round you'll be leeching off the Irish state

I've news for you pal

There won't ever be a socialist state here

All you boys will be getting off yer holes getting jobs and paying tax if there's ever a UI

[RedHand88]

Anyone who is bemoaning the state of the ROI and ignoring the state of NI, in which lets not forget SF have been in power for over 10 years would want to just steady up and think about that. NI's government is a mess. It's CS is bloated, incompetent, overpaid and underworked. The massive, massive financial benefits to reunification just cannot be ignored.

Additionally with the Irish Sea Border and the inability to ship goods from GB to NI has already started a shift towards the ROI and EU. Supply lines change. Businesses adapt and overcome. The reunification process won't be just the case of a vote and then a huge change, it has already started ever so slowly and quietly. It'll be so subtle that you'll not even notice it.

The assembly has no power and a loyalist veto.

I wouldn't expect you to grasp the complexities.

Plus if anyone thinks the SDLP would trim down the civil service they are deluded.

[armaghniac]

The problem those seeking a UI has, is not solely persuading unionists or the undecided. Many nationalists, and I would be one, need to be convinced that our standard of living will not be impaired. I cannot see wages increasing adequately in a UI to cover the increase in living costs. Furthermore having reached a certain age I am very conscious that I will be relying on the health service more and more. When I was younger I would have risked these things. Much as I want to see a UI, I have not seen detail on these issues other than claim and counter claim.

The problems is the overall economic gap, some of other things are mere questions of detail and any reasonable process should address most of these points. The cost of living aspect of things is much touted, but it can be exaggerated. Houses might be expensive in Dublin, but the are less so in Donegal and they won't increase in price in the 6 counties because of unification alone, they will only increase if people's wages increase. People compare the price in the the wee shop in Donegal when they are on holidays with the prices in Tesco in Belfast, which is not really a good comparison. The Aldi shops in 'Blayney or Dundalk (and no doubt elsewhere) have a lot of yellow plates in the car park, suggesting that prices differences are not as great some claim.

All in all though it would be best if NI had some sort of decent local economy and then people could chose without this being a dominating issue. The problem is that it suits the unionists to keep it this way and SF have zero in the way of economic ideas, they specialise in spending money not in earning it.
We hear nonsense about the ROI being a failed state, the reality is that is has been rather too successful and NI is unable to keep up, and it would truly a tragedy if this gap kept partition going.

[marty34]

The problem those seeking a UI has, is not solely persuading unionists or the undecided. Many nationalists, and I would be one, need to be convinced that our standard of living will not be impaired. I cannot see wages increasing adequately in a UI to cover the increase in living costs. Furthermore having reached a certain age I am very conscious that I will be relying on the health service more and more. When I was younger I would have risked these things. Much as I want to see a UI, I have not seen detail on these issues other than claim and counter claim.

It'll be like Brexit and elections etc - full of spin and fake news.

Just look at Coronavirus for example.  The whole debate, as time has went on, has been crazy.

Who are you going to believe?

[general_lee]

For those who seem to believe that the Republic is a failed state and is any way comparable to what they have in NI

A few simple facts

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI


I could go on and on with examples as regards the disparity in wages, educational attainment, quality of life, life expectancy, even social welfare benefits which seems to a preoccupation of some from NI and the likes of gay rights and abortion rights but I wont.

I'm sure the sainted northern NHS will be thrown at me as an example of where NI is better the Republic, but when you look at the thousands on waiting lists up there, it kinda dilutes that claim too.

The reality is that the Republic is a free open and tolerant European country, hardly the failed state that some Northerners on here make it out to be, possibly to make themselves feel better.

Yet why have they a two tier health service with the public health system seeing 600-700 people lying on hospital trolleys every year, working class people being priced out healthcare?

Why have you such issues with homelessness and where being able to afford a home is a pipedream for most of the generation in their 20s?

You try and spin it anyway you want, the free state is a failed statelet and time and time again, the vested interests are looked after at the cost of the people.

Look at the ever widening welath inequality in the 26 that grows bigger and bigger every year. Look at how the FS government consistently pilfer off state resources and services to the private sector so their billionaire pals can gouge the working man for a few quid more to vital services and resources. They can vote to not pay their student nurses but are happy to overpay a billionaire €10m and refuse to look for it back.

The Free State is rotten and mired in corruption.

you are sounding more and more like Jim Alister with every passing comment son.

200,000 on NHS waiting lists in NI

10,000 Families Homeless in NI

And? Who is saying the O6 is a success?

Where have I defended the O6? I've repeatedly said both states are failed states. What part of that statement I've repeated multiple times are you failing to grasp?

The Republic is not a failed state by any metric you wish to employ,bitterness blinds you to that

Your probably one of those work shy handout out addicted Shinner fucks who's pining for a 32 socialist state which means the color of your handout money will change and life will continue on,except this time round you'll be leeching off the Irish state

I've news for you pal

There won't ever be a socialist state here

All you boys will be getting off yer holes getting jobs and paying tax if there's ever a UI

I have to say that while I don't think the Republic is a failure by any stretch of the imagination, those leading it for the past decade or two have failed the people. Your belligerence is a warm reminder of how scared the FFG crowd are of SF.