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If anyone leaves clones today thinking we haven't progressed in the last 2 years then they need their head read.

If that is progress then we are doomed. Two very fortunate goals kept us in it.

An intercounty player who can't kick the ball over the bar from 25 metres out summed it up.

Having the ball on yheir '21 and going back to our goalkeeper when we were behind. We can't kick pass and are petrified of making a mistake.

Anyone thinks football doesn't need rule changes after watching that shite needs their head looked at!

Absolute negative crap!

Change it to what though? They've been changing it for years.

It needs something because that was pure crap! And do you know what? Some Intercounty Managers will have watched that and think Down played well.

You've two Managers  there on the guts of £80k a year....allegedly & thats the shite they serve up. Football has gone backward so much.

When you've an intercounty player unable to put the ball over the bar from 25 metres something is badly wrong.

What the answer is I don't know but maybe a rule were once play enters an opponents half you can't go back into your own.

You must maintain a minimum number of players  in the opponents half.

Scrap that forward mark!

Anyone thinks football doesn't need rule changes after watching that shite needs their head looked at!

Absolute negative crap!

I just can't get my head around how Derry have so many men back, yet any sort of run in the final third from a Dublin player resulted in them being free in space & their "marker" 5-10 metres off them.

Derry don't look fit at all.

Dublin getting it so easy in this game. Derry miles off it & happy to drop back just to have numbers, but Dublin still cutting through them handy.

Derry not marking tight anywhere on the pitch & have now resorted to potshots from distance.

It was a poor enough attempt from McGuigan with the Dublin keeper out the field.

It's not necessarily the commitment levels that need to change, moreso effort vs reward balance.
Tonight in Newry two teams so negative they looked like they had forgot how to attack. Players in space turning to go bakward & under no pressure. Sweepers dropping back  for the sake of it.

I honestly think the only way it changes is a rule change. People paying in to watch the negative football on display & nearly every Team in the country setting up.the same way. It's pure shite on display!

Something has to give.

Enlighten me thrn, how is it questionnable?
The point you clearly seem to miss is that I was sat in The Cusack. David Gough is a lot closer & can see the incident happen in front of him

Dublin won yes, but whether they deserved it or not is another matter.

You wrote
It's entirely within Dublin's rights to push the line and try to max it out.

However it was David Gough's job to establish the line in accordance with the rules of the game & apply them fairly &  consistently to both.

I'm not one bit sore. I made a point about his performance and was criticised by a current Referee on here who admittedly hadn't seen the game properly or the incidents at his time of posting.

To which MR2 replied "This is balls....."

To me it reads that you were trying to insinuate that his criticism of your interpretation of the game was unfounded as MR2 did not watch the game clearly. He and I are pointing out he has rewatched the whole game and his opinion has not changed.

If that is not what you were insinuating can you clarify what you did mean?

No I think you will find I made the point that he was on here talking down to anyone who disagreed with his narrative, without having seen the match or the incidents properly. His language not mine.

We disagree on the points raised & that is fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion. What is sad is someone thinking because they are a Referee that this allows them talk down to everyone else on the rules of the game and their application.

Everyone is all for"it being a mans game" or a"physical game" until it effects them or their team.

I merely made the point that on Sunday, in my eyes Gough let one team away with some very questionable calls.

Read what I wrote in my message prior to MR2' "that is balls" point

[you and I both know that if we were a Kerry player on Sunday and that was the only decision he actively went to seek opinion from The Umpires]

Why is it one ref makes them work for a free, and another was giving frees for very littikr in the semi, it's either a free or its not.

According to MR2, the ref was correct when he called a foul in one incident of foul play and still correct when he doesn't call a foul in a similar  or even worse incident of foul play, because apparently it wasn't foul play when the ref decides it wasn't a foul. Or the last resort excuse, it wasn't foul play because of the peculiar viewing angle.

Regardless, a GAA ref  has a mammoth task to ref championship games, I 100% favour having 2 refs  say from group stage onward. There's usually an experience ref  lingering on the sideline whose only duty is to inform the mentors of what's what. I couldn't care less if the 2 refs slightly differed on their application of the rules. Eventually they will end up performing in unison like those synchronized swimmers.
For my money Coldrick was the best at letting a game roll with the punches and blowing up for foul play when appropriate, definitely the best for an Ulster free for all final.

If ref'ing was so simple, as in how everyone here knows better and how it should be applied, then why are we having these discussions?

2 Ref's? f**k me! Clubs struggle to put forward one referee, the fall out rate after completing the course is nearly 50% after the first year, main reason is gobshites either hanging over the fence or on the pitch telling the ref he's a useless cnut!

Some people haven't the first clue of the actual rules, and still questioning the rules when they are explained, As for Sunday's game I haven't seen it on TV, watching it on my phone isn't the same, was raining too which didnt help, I'll watch the game back, as I said earlier

Plenty of Referees haven't a clue on the rules either!  The problem a lot of the time is Refs apply their own interpretation of the rules. Take Sunday for example David Gough influenced the game by not applying the rules of the game consistently.
McCarthy should not have been on the pitch & it could be argued that he allowed Dublin away with overly aggressive late hits (McCarthy, Smalls) & let Costello away with throwing a punch.

If you have played the game you will realise his call to overturn the Clifford free was a cop out. Why did he not consult his umpires on the other decisions?

There is no consistency from game to game and as a neutral it appears The Dubs seem to come out on the right side of these inconsistent performances in the big games.

I'd say that if me and you sat down to do a rules test that I'd come out on top, I'd say if Gough and me sat down to do a rules test, he'd better my score, any ref that is intercounty they have to get 95% I think, club refs 85%

I've played the game, both codes well into my 40's from juvenile to senior so I'm fairly confident on the game, you said he did not consult his umpires, how do you know? These guys are on a live feed and speaking to their umpires/linesmen flat out throughout the game, but you know better?

You are trying to apply black and white, its not like that, and if you played the game, you'd understand that. Everyone knows the rules when they goggle it

Nice assumptions there, but you are avoiding the elephant in the room. Should McCarthy have been on the pitch? Did he influence the outcome of the game by remaining on the pitch?

If the answer to the first question is no then Gough f*cked up, regardless or not if he would better either you or me in some rules test.

On your second point about constant communication with his fellow officials, you and I both know that if we were a Kerry player on Sunday and that was the only decision he actively went to seek opinion from The Umpires, you would be livid. Costello strike was pretty obvious as was McCarthy's numerous yellow card offences.

So whether you like it or not, knowing the rulebook inside out and applying it fairly and consistently are two very different things.

Are you saying he wasn't talking to his umpires? I've said they use an open mic and do talk to their linesmen and umpires, for some reason you felt they weren't I'm assuming then you had a listening device during the match that told you that?

As I've said I would need to watch the game properly as oppose to watching while dandering through London and on a train, also, he didn't call it and didn't do it to piss you off, or because he was the captain and didn't want to annoy him on his big day!

I never said McCarthy's fouls were all red card offences.

Okay lets flip it. Lets say Kerry committed the fouls McCarthy & Costello did. Would Gough had come to the same decisions?  Not a chance!

Darragh Ó Sé, in his post-match column, is nowhere near as sore as you are in respect of the refereeing performance, in that he (correctly) states that Dublin established the (thus far and no further) line with Gough early on, and weren't afraid to max it out.

It's entirely within Dublin's rights to push the line and try to max it out.

However it was David Gough's job to establish the line in accordance with the rules of the game & apply them fairly &  consistently to both.

I'm not one bit sore. I made a point about his performance and was criticised by a current Referee on here who admittedly hadn't seen the game properly or the incidents at his time of posting.

I never said McCarthy's fouls were all red card offences.

Okay lets flip it. Lets say Kerry committed the fouls McCarthy & Costello did. Would Gough had come to the same decisions?  Not a chance!

I was in The Cusack so a bit further away than Gough who was on the 40. A linesman was also around the 40. You can clearly see a coming together instigated by Costello that leaves the Kerry player on the ground holding his stomach/groin area.

Even TV commentary picked up on Costello getting away with it. Your point is?
I was there on Sunday to enjoy the  final, not officiate it. Did you see it "in real time?"

No and that is the point. None of the officials saw it. Simple explanation.

But they did see it. Watch the game, you can see Gough sees it, runs to Costello and then moves the ball in for him mouthing off.

If you are saying a Ref, Linesman & two Umpires all with sight lines of it somehow all missed the punch but yet still awarded a free then Id have to suggest they are either pretty poor at their jobs or bottled it.

I was in The Cusack so a bit further away than Gough who was on the 40. A linesman was also around the 40. You can clearly see a coming together instigated by Costello that leaves the Kerry player on the ground holding his stomach/groin area.

Even TV commentary picked up on Costello getting away with it. Your point is?
I was there on Sunday to enjoy the  final, not officiate it. Did you see it "in real time?"

[Nobody is yet to explain how Gough and his officials missed Costello throwing a punch and getting away with it?]

What were the two reds you talked about? Black I'm not sure on tbh - someone said it but I don't buy it.

Head high challenges

Dangerous/reckless play/intentional striking

I get why people might think that McCarthy should have been put off but there were not two straight red card offences in that game or everyone would be talking about it. Red for persistent fouling maybe but two straight reds no. Otherwise why wasn't it being talked about by everyone?

Exactly. Some haven't got over their disappointment yet and I understand that. Time is a sort of healer. What we really need to avoid is expecting ever ref to get every call right, in one viewing and in a split second. Impossible.

Who said McCarthy had a single red card offence?  He definitely was guilty of numerous challenges that normally would be generally accepted as Yellow/Black Card offences. The accumulation would have resulted in him being sidelined as per the rules of the game.

Nobody is yet to explain how Gough and his officials missed Costello throwing a punch and getting away with it?

I actually like Gough as a Referee but when he is put in charge of The Dubs in pressure games he has a tendency to let them cross the line.

It is well documented that he was effectively their In house Referee
The GAA should have more cop on and stop making problems for itself.

It can be explained.  Can I ask first if you were at the match or watched in on tv?

I was at the game & have re-watched it as well. Why whats your point?