How would you reform the championship without creating a second tier?
A proposal which retains regional divisions.
Divide the 32 teams into 4 conferences: North, East, West, and South.
The 4 conference champions advance to the All-Ireland knockout stages.
The conferences can have a round-robin group stage followed by a knockout stage. Alternatively, they could be straight knockout from the start. The second option allows for a backdoor into the All-Ireland.
I know that it will hard for some teams to accept being moved out of their province but I've tried to retain the regional rivalries as much as I possibly could.
Northern Conference
Cavan, Derry, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, Armagh, Monaghan, and Tyrone.
Eastern Conference
Dublin, Louth, Meath, Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Wicklow, and Laois.
Southern Conference
Kerry, Limerick, Cork, Tipperary, Carlow, Wexford, Waterford, and London.
Western Conference
Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Longford, Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, and Clare.
Fixed. Donegal are in the West.
I'd imagine donegal will feel aggrieved
Yes, I agree,
Retaining London and disposing of Donegal seems harsh.
Maybe remove London from the South,
Take Clare from the West and put them into the South
Take Donegal back from Oblivion and put them into the West.
There you have it. But it's all very academic because it's never going to happen.
Why do cavan get to play in 2 different groups
That was a mistake. I've fixed it.
Kerry would still have a cakewalk to the All Ireland series.
Quote from: APM on July 26, 2019, 05:33:10 PM
Yes, I agree,
Retaining London and disposing of Donegal seems harsh.
Maybe remove London from the South,
Take Clare from the West and put them into the South
Take Donegal back from Oblivion and put them into the West.
There you have it. But it's all very academic because it's never going to happen.
Agreed. Putting Clare into the South makes sense.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 26, 2019, 05:52:17 PM
Kerry would still have a cakewalk to the All Ireland series.
And Dublin but a lot of people want to retain the provincial structure. Either way, Dublin and Kerry will have an easy route to the All-Ireland series.
Strange that the Donegal, being the most northern county, aren't in the Northern Conference.
I can't ever understand this obsession with retaining 'local rivalries'. Yeah some are special and when neighbours are both going well they are great but there are plenty of neighbouring counties who are not in the same province so you don't need to have regions mirror the provinces too much.
There's a heap of posts on the super 8's but the issue is the provincial structure. I just see how they bring more to the party than they hinder.
Provincial Championships give a lot more Counties a chance if silverware, they bring bigger crowds than the Qualifiers do or random Groups would.
4 Counties have won AIs this decade.
3 of them have won NFLs + Mayowestros.
I think 10 Counties have won Provincials this decade.
I don't see what changing the Traditional Provinces to 4 "Conferences" would achieve.
10 counties have won a Provincial championship.
Kerry
Dublin
Donegal
Mayo
Meath
Tyrone
Roscommon
Cork
Monaghan
Galway
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on July 26, 2019, 06:41:29 PM
10 counties have won a Provincial championship.
Kerry
Dublin
Donegal
Mayo
Meath
Tyrone
Roscommon
Cork
Monaghan
Galway
Hmmm...
Quote from: BennyCake on July 26, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
Hmmm...
They won in 2010.
Sligo and Limerick both reached their provincial finals in 2010.
As did Louth the true Leinster Champions of 2010 ;)
2000 to 2009 only 4 Counties won the AI and I cant remember who won NFLs.
At least 12 won Provincials.
12 Provincial champions.
Kerry
Kildare
Westmeath
Mayo
Laois
Meath
Tyrone
Roscommon
Cork
Dublin
Armagh
Galway
Sligo
Quote from: Hawkeye9212 on July 26, 2019, 07:05:16 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 26, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
Hmmm...
They won in 2010.
Sligo and Limerick both reached their provincial finals in 2010.
Did they? Did they really? ;)
The problem is that no matter what way you organise it, if the top teams have to play against the bottom sides there's going to be hammerings a plenty. Also with a round robin of 8 teams you basically remove any hope of a county like Sligo ever making another provincial decider again. Same goes for most counties that would make it once every 7/8 years. Now Sligo would have to finish ahead of 2 of Galway, Mayo, Roscommon or Donegal now just to reach a final. 4 D1 teams. They would then have to win that final to progress.
Basically giving them zero hope of ever going on a run like they did in 2002 through the back door beating Tyrone and they should have beaten Armagh who won the AI that year.
At least with the current provincial system they can get lucky with the draw and maybe only have to play one of the big guns to reach a Connacht final. Lose that and they have another rattle at making the super8 with a back door game.
I'm not defending the current system because it's inherently unfair. Just one niche example of the unfairness is the cumulative black cards leading the a ban. It's impossible for a Kerry player to have picked up 3 black cards before the Super8 because they will only play 2 games. An Ulster team could play 4 just in Ulster or of they lose the quarter final having played the prelim they could play 6 games and as such have much more chance of picking up 3 blacks. It's a farce at the moment.
I just don't know how to make it better without splitting it into tiered or at least make the provincial games stand alone and have the championship as a pure knockout open draw with 32 counties in a hat at the start of the summer. Win 5 games and you're all Ireland Champion. Same challenge for everyone and it's pure knockout.
Expanding on that, what would be wrong with this?
Run the leagues off starting in March. With the provincial championships running concurrently.
March 1st - League game 1
march 15th - League game 2
March 29th - Provincial game 1
April 5th - League game 3
April 19th - League game 4
May 3rd - Provincial game 2
May 10th - League game 5
May 24th - League game 6
June 7th - Provincial game 3
June 14th - League game 7
June 21st - Provincial Finals
July 5th - League Finals
July 19th - All Ireland Round 1 - 16 counties exit championship at this stage and are free to run off club competitions at will
August 2nd - All- Ireland Round 2 - 24 counties are now gone
August 16th - All Ireland Round 3 (QF)- 28 counties now gone
August 30th - All Ireland Semi Final - 30 counties now gone
September 13 - All Ireland Final
Really, what's not to like about it? Pure knock out for the championship, fair for all involved. Weak counties can still hope to go on a decent run in the thing if they can avoid the big gun early doors. Open draw, no seeded teams etc.
The provincial competition are retained but separate from the AI which is only fair. The final is also just before the championship starts and with pure knock out all teams would need to be flying then so will continue to take it seriously.
League stays as is.
Intercounty season is boiled down to 5.5 months max and 3.5 months for half the counties.
Club players will get good summer football in all but a few counties.
It's two groups of 4 or a straight knockout.
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:12:26 PM
Expanding on that, what would be wrong with this?
Run the leagues off starting in March. With the provincial championships running concurrently.
March 1st - League game 1
march 15th - League game 2
March 29th - Provincial game 1
April 5th - League game 3
April 19th - League game 4
May 3rd - Provincial game 2
May 10th - League game 5
May 24th - League game 6
June 7th - Provincial game 3
June 14th - League game 7
June 21st - Provincial Finals
July 5th - League Finals
July 19th - All Ireland Round 1 - 16 counties exit championship at this stage and are free to run off club competitions at will
August 2nd - All- Ireland Round 2 - 24 counties are now gone
August 16th - All Ireland Round 3 (QF)- 28 counties now gone
August 30th - All Ireland Semi Final - 30 counties now gone
September 13 - All Ireland Final
Really, what's not to like about it? Pure knock out for the championship, fair for all involved. Weak counties can still hope to go on a decent run in the thing if they can avoid the big gun early doors. Open draw, no seeded teams etc.
The provincial competition are retained but separate from the AI which is only fair. The final is also just before the championship starts and with pure knock out all teams would need to be flying then so will continue to take it seriously.
League stays as is.
Intercounty season is boiled down to 5.5 months max and 3.5 months for half the counties.
Club players will get good summer football in all but a few counties.
Is the championship open draw?
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I think a lot of your proposal has merit but I'd disagree on seedings. For one thing, if the league and provincial championships aren't linked to your championship then they'll serve little purpose for many counties. This will mean that the vast majority of inter county games are little more than challenge games.
Secondly, we could end up with two semi final hammerings or worse again an All Ireland final hammering. Of course that can, and has, happened but we shouldn't IMO have a competition format for the All Ireland that has little to do with merit. Of the 32 counties competing for the All Ireland we have probably 26 or more that wouldn't be within 8 points of the top teams. We've seen it before, teams who won their province but end up getting hammered in the all Ireland series and the team and county ending the season on a massive downer. It might be great for a Sligo or Clare getting to an All Ireland QF or SF by luck of the draw but if they get beaten by 15 points then I don't think players or fans would take many positives out of it.
Did the draw for the craic.
Round 1
Offaly V Kerry
Cavan V Kildare
Longford V Donegal
Fermanagh V Limerick
London V Mayo
Tyrone V Armagh
Down V Galway
Antrim V Waterford
Carlow V Wexford
Roscommon V Wicklow
Derry V Laois
Louth V Cork
Clare V Dublin
Westmeath V Sligo
Leitrim V Tipperary
Meath V Monaghan
Picking the winners of each tie using the rankings table on Boards...
Round 2 - some cracking games here. The top one being the pick. Also Antrim, Carlow, Leitrim all progressed from R1 thanks to a nice draw.
Kerry V Tyrone
Laois V Galway
Dublin V Cavan
Leitrim V Roscommon
Mayo V Antrim
Meath V Fermanagh
Donegal V Cork
Westmeath V Carlow
Round 3 - Kerry out due to being below Tyrone in the rankings. Westmeath and Meath through to the AI quarter finals.
Tyrone V Galway
Donegal V Roscommon
Dublin V Meath
Westmeath V Mayo
Round 4 - Semi finals - What about these for two cracking semi-finals
Mayo V Donegal
Dublin V Tyrone
Round 5 - Final
Dublin V Donegal
Lads, I dare anyone to say that wouldn't be a cracker championship. That was done pure random open draw using Random.org
Rankings to decide winners were taken from here and no heed was taken to home advantage etc. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110650184&postcount=923
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 08:46:15 PM
I think a lot of your proposal has merit but I'd disagree on seedings. For one thing, if the league and provincial championships aren't linked to your championship then they'll serve little purpose for many counties. This will mean that the vast majority of inter county games are little more than challenge games.
Secondly, we could end up with two semi final hammerings or worse again an All Ireland final hammering. Of course that can, and has, happened but we shouldn't IMO have a competition format for the All Ireland that has little to do with merit. Of the 32 counties competing for the All Ireland we have probably 26 or more that wouldn't be within 8 points of the top teams. We've seen it before, teams who won their province but end up getting hammered in the all Ireland series and the team and county ending the season on a massive downer. It might be great for a Sligo or Clare getting to an All Ireland QF or SF by luck of the draw but if they get beaten by 15 points then I don't think players or fans would take many positives out of it.
Sure what has the league got to do with the championship now? It's a stand alone competition.
For me in this system your All ireland is top prize obviously, then the provincial then the league. Not sure how the provincial wouldn't still be seen as important. There's simply no way to feed the provincial system back into the All Ireland in a way that's fair. They have to be split up.
Also, if there's seedings then the likes of Dublin will be playing a Sligo or a Leitrim in round 1. Are they better off getting a 20 point hammering in R1 or after having win a few games and getting their gander up?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
It's quite incomprehensible that a weak county would get all the way to a final. If they do they will deserve it.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
What a crock!! What's the purpose of allowing teams get to the latter stages of a competition by luck? We all want to see new teams grow and develop into genuine contenders but perhaps you could explain to me the value of a format where the vast majority of games don't matter and teams who can't compete with the best get to the latter stages?
Senior inter county is the elite of our game, I don't see the merit of formats that are more like something you'd use for an U11 tournament. Not saying that's what your format is Jayop, just saying running elite level adult football like an elite competition isn't the a bad way of doing it.
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
It's quite incomprehensible that a weak county would get all the way to a final. If they do they will deserve it.
Maybe not all the way to the final but certainly QF and SF are possible and if they did it by beating only division 3 and 4 teams, how is that deserving?
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 09:04:41 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
What a crock!! What's the purpose of allowing teams get to the latter stages of a competition by luck? We all want to see new teams grow and develop into genuine contenders but perhaps you could explain to me the value of a format where the vast majority of games don't matter and teams who can't compete with the best get to the latter stages?
Senior inter county is the elite of our game, I don't see the merit of formats that are more like something you'd use for an U11 tournament. Not saying that's what your format is Jayop, just saying running elite level adult football like an elite competition isn't the a bad way of doing it.
Would you call the FA cup an elite level adult competition?
It's an open draw. The two top teams can draw each other in R3 where they enter it. Millwall can get to the final if they get a nice draw and play well.
You're not "allowing teams get to the latter stages of a competition by luck?". It's an open draw. If they get to the later stages then they will deserve it. Who are we really talking about getting to the later stages anyway? In that draw I made Meath and Westmeath made it to the 1/4 final because they won two games in an open draw format. That's as it should be. By that stage the chances of them getting drawn against each other are 8/1 and even then they would have had to play the winners of the other 3 games in the semi final. If they somehow managed to beat one of those and got to the final then they absolutely deserve to be there.
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 09:05:58 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
It's quite incomprehensible that a weak county would get all the way to a final. If they do they will deserve it.
Maybe not all the way to the final but certainly QF and SF are possible and if they did it by beating only division 3 and 4 teams, how is that deserving?
Kerry got there this year (and every year) by beating Clare and Cork (or similar teams).
Dublin got there this year by beating Louth, Kildare and Meath.
What's less fair about someone else getting to a 1/4 final by beating weak sides?
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:57:59 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 08:46:15 PM
I think a lot of your proposal has merit but I'd disagree on seedings. For one thing, if the league and provincial championships aren't linked to your championship then they'll serve little purpose for many counties. This will mean that the vast majority of inter county games are little more than challenge games.
Secondly, we could end up with two semi final hammerings or worse again an All Ireland final hammering. Of course that can, and has, happened but we shouldn't IMO have a competition format for the All Ireland that has little to do with merit. Of the 32 counties competing for the All Ireland we have probably 26 or more that wouldn't be within 8 points of the top teams. We've seen it before, teams who won their province but end up getting hammered in the all Ireland series and the team and county ending the season on a massive downer. It might be great for a Sligo or Clare getting to an All Ireland QF or SF by luck of the draw but if they get beaten by 15 points then I don't think players or fans would take many positives out of it.
Sure what has the league got to do with the championship now? It's a stand alone competition.
For me in this system your All ireland is top prize obviously, then the provincial then the league. Not sure how the provincial wouldn't still be seen as important. There's simply no way to feed the provincial system back into the All Ireland in a way that's fair. They have to be split up.
Also, if there's seedings then the likes of Dublin will be playing a Sligo or a Leitrim in round 1. Are they better off getting a 20 point hammering in R1 or after having win a few games and getting their gander up?
I think the senior inter county season should mostly have games that matter. The league in your format would be become pretty pointless outside of developing your team, which is fine, but doesn't make for games that are of real value. Personally, I see little merit in the provincials but running them in parallel with the league doesn't seem to help prioritise them.
The advantage of seeding is that it gives developing teams a pathway to avoiding Dublin in Rd 1 by climbing the divisions. If you can't get out of division 4 when trying your best to do so then there's a lot of teams who'll hammer you.
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:11:12 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 09:04:41 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
What a crock!! What's the purpose of allowing teams get to the latter stages of a competition by luck? We all want to see new teams grow and develop into genuine contenders but perhaps you could explain to me the value of a format where the vast majority of games don't matter and teams who can't compete with the best get to the latter stages?
Senior inter county is the elite of our game, I don't see the merit of formats that are more like something you'd use for an U11 tournament. Not saying that's what your format is Jayop, just saying running elite level adult football like an elite competition isn't the a bad way of doing it.
Would you call the FA cup an elite level adult competition?
It's an open draw. The two top teams can draw each other in R3 where they enter it. Millwall can get to the final if they get a nice draw and play well.
You're not "allowing teams get to the latter stages of a competition by luck?". It's an open draw. If they get to the later stages then they will deserve it. Who are we really talking about getting to the later stages anyway? In that draw I made Meath and Westmeath made it to the 1/4 final because they won two games in an open draw format. That's as it should be. By that stage the chances of them getting drawn against each other are 8/1 and even then they would have had to play the winners of the other 3 games in the semi final. If they somehow managed to beat one of those and got to the final then they absolutely deserve to be there.
Where does the FA cup rank in British soccer for most teams, 2nd or 3rd (for the premiership teams and probably more). The All Ireland is our champions league and you have to qualify for that.
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
It's quite incomprehensible that a weak county would get all the way to a final. If they do they will deserve it.
Through gritted teeth he had to congratulate Div 3 Tipperary for reaching the semi final three years ago. He was over the moon with the introduction of the round robin group stage for the last eight as it more or less ended the chance of a underdog like Tipperary reaching the last 4 again.
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:13:53 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 09:05:58 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
It's quite incomprehensible that a weak county would get all the way to a final. If they do they will deserve it.
Maybe not all the way to the final but certainly QF and SF are possible and if they did it by beating only division 3 and 4 teams, how is that deserving?
Kerry got there this year (and every year) by beating Clare and Cork (or similar teams).
Dublin got there this year by beating Louth, Kildare and Meath.
What's less fair about someone else getting to a 1/4 final by beating weak sides?
That's 100% true and that's one of the main reasons I don't think the provincials should be linked to progressing in the championship.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
100% open draw. Dublin could get Kerry or Leitrim in the first round.
Seedings are bollocks. If you leave it open then loads of teams could go on a run through to the semi final if they get a good draw.
I just knew Zulu would be against that type of format as doesn't want to see any underdog in All Ireland semi final.
It's quite incomprehensible that a weak county would get all the way to a final. If they do they will deserve it.
Through gritted teeth he had to congratulate Div 3 Tipperary for reaching the semi final three years ago. He was over the moon with the introduction of the round robin group stage for the last eight as it more or less ended the chance of a underdog like Tipperary reaching the last 4 again.
I presume hardstation was referring to you when he said some people were on glue. I had to congratulate Tipp through gritted teeth 3 years ago, what the hell are you talking about??? I couldn't quote anyone's posts from 3 years ago so that you seemly can remember one of mine is fairly worrying. But feel free to post it here again so I we can all see how you deemed a post as being through gritted teeth.
Your second point is simply a lie. I wasn't over the moon and certainly wasn't in favour of it as it would make it harder for a county like Tipp to make the SF's. I was in favour of giving the super 8's their 3 year run as I didn't think the championship format was working and the only other option was the super 8's so I was willing to give them a go.
They aren't the final solution and there are changes needed but I think they are better than the old format.
There's no answer to suit everyone. Round robins with anything more than the top 6 teams will produce crap games. Seeding will guarantee crap games until the semi-finals. Splitting the competion in 2 levels will still have your 5/6 top teams hammering the other 10/11 teams every time they meet. It will also kill football in the 2nd tier counties.
Hurling is all but dead in 20+ counties and they will never ever bridge the gap or get a team that's competative against the top 8 sides. Never.
Football is in a much more healthy state. Take the Dubs out and the next 4 teams could all be beaten by a team a few levels below them on their day.
We need to protect that, and shoving the bottom 16/24 counties into a tier 2 will turn football into the new hurling. Brilliant games at the top level but death by a thousand cuts at the rest.
Quote from: Jayop on July 26, 2019, 09:35:14 PM
There's no answer to suit everyone. Round robins with anything more than the top 6 teams will produce crap games. Seeding will guarantee crap games until the semi-finals. Splitting the competion in 2 levels will still have your 5/6 top teams hammering the other 10/11 teams every time they meet. It will also kill football in the 2nd tier counties.
Hurling is all but dead in 20+ counties and they will never ever bridge the gap or get a team that's competative against the top 8 sides. Never.
Football is in a much more healthy state. Take the Dubs out and the next 4 teams could all be beaten by a team a few levels below them on their day.
We need to protect that, and shoving the bottom 16/24 counties into a tier 2 will turn football into the new hurling. Brilliant games at the top level but death by a thousand cuts at the rest.
I agree. There isn't any format that will serve everyone optimally. But for me, counties have their club championships, Sigerson championships and inter county competitions from U14 upwards to develop players for their county senior team. The GAA can, and should be, trying to help counties develop with funding support but I don't see senior IC football as being anything other than elite teams competing. If you aren't good enough to make it through to a SF or QF then so be it. As long as the competition provides lots of games that matter and every team has the same path to the final then it's a fair decent competition format IMO.
In Soccer the Cups are only a bit of diversion from the real thing which is their Leagues.
That FA Cup only let's 20 out of 600 or 700 Clubs join the elite in their 3rd round.
Now for an off the wall suggestion specially for Hardstation and sort of borrowed from the Hurley stuff.
Shorten the NFL which is only a pre season warmer upper with Final(s) on St Patrick's Day.
Provincials played in April
Connacht Ulster Conference 3 groups of 5, 2 Connacht and 3 Ulster in each group.
Leinster/Munster* 3 groups of 6, 2 Munster and 4 Leinster in each group.
Games spread over May, June, July and 1st weekend of August with designated weekends for Club Championships.
Top 2 in each Group go forward to AI Championship(12 teams).
If you want tiers 3rds and 4ths go to a Tier 2 (12)
And the rest to a Tier 3 (8 or 9 teams*).
*if Kilkenny remains in Britain then 5 in one Leinster group.
Jay - hurling was never anything but dead ie near it in 20 or so Counties. That's why the different Championships were brought in.
Hurling has always been a minority sport largely confined to Leinster and Munster. The sport needs a tiered championship. We might as well just keep the Provincials in football and sort out the funding issues.
He wasn't referring to me as i had only one post on this thread at the time. From what i hear a sign of glue sniffing is a damaged memory.
The Champions league final this year was between Liverpool and Tottenham who last won their domestic league titles in 1990 and 1961. Arguably the highlight of that competition was Ajax run against the odds to the semi final and missing out on the final by inches, it captured the public's interest as all underdog stories do.
In the main competition in our amateur game there is a big focus on elitism and the rest are just left to feed on scraps as the day of the underdog (one of the best things about any team competition) is killed off.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 26, 2019, 09:45:37 PM
In Soccer the Cups are only a bit of diversion from the real thing which is their Leagues.
That FA Cup only let's 20 out of 600 or 700 Clubs join the elite in their 3rd round.
Now for an off the wall suggestion specially for Hardstation and sort of borrowed from the Hurley stuff.
Shorten the NFL which is only a pre season warmer upper with Final(s) on St Patrick's Day.
Provincials played in April
Connacht Ulster Conference 3 groups of 5, 2 Connacht and 3 Ulster in each group.
Leinster/Munster* 3 groups of 6, 2 Munster and 4 Leinster in each group.
Games spread over May, June, July and 1st weekend of August with designated weekends for Club Championships.
Top 2 in each Group go forward to AI Championship(12 teams).
If you want tiers 3rds and 4ths go to a Tier 2 (12)
And the rest to a Tier 3 (8 or 9 teams*).
*if Kilkenny remains in Britain then 5 in one Leinster group.
Jay - hurling was never anything but dead ie near it in 20 or so Counties. That's why the different Championships were brought in.
If you dump 16 teams into a 2nd division then we're going to kill it there too. For what? So Sky Sports and have more super sundays?? f**k that.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 26, 2019, 09:50:00 PM
He wasn't referring to me as i had only one post on this thread at the time. From what i hear a sign of glue sniffing is a damaged memory.
The Champions league final this year was between Liverpool and Tottenham who last won their domestic league titles in 1990 and 1961. Arguably the highlight of that competition was Ajax run against the odds to the semi final and missing out on the final by inches, it captured the public's interest as all underdog stories do.
In the main competition in our amateur game there is a big focus on elitism and the rest are just left to feed on scraps as the day of the underdog (one of the best things about any team competition) is killed off.
You're surely not suggesting Liverpool and Spurs aren't elite teams? I've no interest in soccer but I doubt anyone wouldn't have both clubs in the top 30 in Europe (at least). So out of the 1000+ professional soccer teams in Europe they're both in the top 3% (probably in the top 2%). Ajax would be there or there about too I'd imagine.
Underdog stories are brilliant but Clare getting to an all Ireland semi final because they beat Waterford, Carlow and Westmeath isn't really an underdog story. It's a decent teams progressing aby beating teams they would probably beat most days. It would be brilliant if Clare made a SF by beating Waterford, Meath and Tyrone for example but that could happen in a seeded format too.
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2019, 08:46:15 PM
I think a lot of your proposal has merit but I'd disagree on seedings. For one thing, if the league and provincial championships aren't linked to your championship then they'll serve little purpose for many counties. This will mean that the vast majority of inter county games are little more than challenge games.
Secondly, we could end up with two semi final hammerings or worse again an All Ireland final hammering. Of course that can, and has, happened but we shouldn't IMO have a competition format for the All Ireland that has little to do with merit. Of the 32 counties competing for the All Ireland we have probably 26 or more that wouldn't be within 8 points of the top teams. We've seen it before, teams who won their province but end up getting hammered in the all Ireland series and the team and county ending the season on a massive downer. It might be great for a Sligo or Clare getting to an All Ireland QF or SF by luck of the draw but if they get beaten by 15 points then I don't think players or fans would take many positives out of it.
Jaysus I'd say a Sligo or Clare man would sell their souls for and AI semi.
I love the provincials but fck me how can it be fair that Armagh for example could be unlucky and have to beat Donegal in a prelim, then Monaghan in a qf then Cavan in a sf and Tyrone in a final(even if the lose the final, into round 4 qualifiers) to get to the same stage that Mayo or Kerry can get to by beating Clare or Sligo. Yes before any smart fecker says, its not gonna happen but it theoretically can. That potential run of games to get out of Ulster is fecking tough and in a different scenario could be a potential route to an AIF.
A chance to play or watch a game in somewhere like Thurles is a damn nice incentive.
Yeah you're probably right.
To move away from the 2nd Tier thread .... it's been voted in and we gave to think of T mac's health....
I saw a report somewhere that the Football Review Committee has gone back to creating 4 artificial 'Provinces" of 8 teams.
This to be done by putting the lowest Ulster League team plus 1 Leinster into "Connacht". Obviously NY get the bullet.
Then they propose putting 2 other Leinster Counties into "Munster".
The "Provincial" Championships to each consist of 2 Groups of 4.
I presume this is the daft proposal put up to fail so they can get some other system through?
Why would it fail? Traditionalists?
A Connacht province of Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, London, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo and Cavan would be interesting.
Likewise a Munster Province of Kerry, Cork, Clare, Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick, Offaly and Laois.
If Kildare bordered a Munster county I would be delighted to get away from Leinster,
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 25, 2019, 03:48:19 PM
Why would it fail? Traditionalists?
A Connacht province of Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, London, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo and Cavan would be interesting.
For Cavan GAA people, it would be shit.
And the proposal is actually to put the lowest League Ulster team, which is perennially Antrim, into Connacht. What on earth would that achieve?
Quote from: five points on October 25, 2019, 04:51:15 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 25, 2019, 03:48:19 PM
Why would it fail? Traditionalists?
A Connacht province of Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, London, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo and Cavan would be interesting.
For Cavan GAA people, it would be shit.
And the proposal is actually to put the lowest League Ulster team, which is perennially Antrim, into Connacht. What on earth would that achieve?
For the likes of Antrim, next to nothing. As for Cavan they reached the Ulster final this summer and I'm sure their aim in the years ahead is to win a Ulster senior title.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 25, 2019, 03:48:19 PM
Why would it fail? Traditionalists?
A Connacht province of Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, London, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo and Cavan would be interesting.
Likewise a Munster Province of Kerry, Cork, Clare, Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick, Offaly and Laois.
If Kildare bordered a Munster county I would be delighted to get away from Leinster,
Ah jases Dinny.....
It wouldn't be Connacht, Ulster Leinster or Munster then.
Kerry and Cork would still be a shoo in to the last 8/12....
Pure mad stuff.....
Ireland existed before Ulster, Munster, Leinster and the other one. Get rid of them and make new house names like the Harry Potter ones.
Do away with the Provinces 32 teams enter championship for Sam Maguire (Sorry New York).
8 groups containing a team from All 4 divisions play 3 games, top 2 enter Championship bottom two a Secondary Championship.
Means there is potential for a 3rd or 4th division team making the last 16 for Sam, its not decided on league games played in February gutters.
From last 16 in each championship have it open draw straight knock out.
And move the All Ireland Final back to 3rd Sunday of September.
Quote from: pbat on October 25, 2019, 08:11:46 PM
Do away with the Provinces 32 teams enter championship for Sam Maguire (Sorry New York).
8 groups containing a team from All 4 divisions play 3 games, top 2 enter Championship bottom two a Secondary Championship.
Means there is potential for a 3rd or 4th division team making the last 16 for Sam, its not decided on league games played in February gutters.
From last 16 in each championship have it open draw straight knock out.
And move the All Ireland Final back to 3rd Sunday of September.
Only Ulster and to a lesser extent Connacht throw up such good games I'd love to see this happen.