Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[Itchy]

Western standards laid bare for all to see:

I'm not sure the term "Western" is appropriate, every west European country and Canada, Australia and New Zealand support the ICC.

The USA don't.

Then the post should have referred to the USA and not to "Western".

While your post shouldn't have made the claim that "every western country" supports the ICC.

The point I was making is that the "western" world were up and arms and rightly so when Russia invaded Ukraine, sanctions, diplomats getting banned etc etc, but when Israel starts slaughtering the Palestinians on a scale that would make Pol Pot blush, there's none of the same concern.

Is there any nuance at all between the two conflicts or do you reckon they're directly comparable?

The direct comparison is that innocent women and children are being killed in both.

what other nuance do you need?

Intentionally targeted. I don't believe the Russians are Intentionally starving Ukraine yet or targeting hospitals and churches so I suppose they're not quite at the Israeli level of barbarism yet

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/patients-evacuated-after-gaza-hospital-struck-in-israeli-missile-attack/a1921804259.html

[Lubo Moravcik]

There is, as far as I'm aware, no evidence of this gang rape/mass rape thing. Its also pretty much accepted that Israel shot up a large amount of their own people. If they gave a damn about hostages they would gave negotiated their release, instead they carpet bombed civilian areas. You need to think of Israel as Nazis to understand the evil you are dealing with here.

I have no doubt that Israel wilfully murder and starve Palestinians - it's clear from their actions.

Though hasn't the ICC also accepted that Hamas fighters used sexual violence? I'd imagine they must have seen evidence before stating such.

Maybe they have, they've certainly said Hamas has a case to answer on it. But I've not seen any evidence from reliable sources and in fact some of the initial witnesses stating this were shown to be very unreliable. I would have thought it surely would've been out there for all to see if evidence was available. A bit like the weapons and tunnels in hospitals, none of it ever surfaced.

Israel's exaggerated reports of sexual violence are unbelievable but if the ICC are also citing it in their case agains the leadership of Hamas I'm inclined to think there must have been some level of truth in the original reports of rapes occurring.

The 'human shield' thing Israel use against Hamas I find ridiculous. Israel has never cared about harming civilians so what use are they as any type of shield.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/icc-has-no-evidence-7-october-rapes-documents-indicate

Sorry but "My office continues to investigate reports of sexual violence committed on Oct 7th' does not mean that it did not occur.  Did Israel tell lies about the scale of it? I would say yes. Did rape occur? I'll wait for the ICC investigation to reach a conclusion on that.

The ICC seems to possess evidence that rape occurred in captivity, however the Electronic Intifada article is very causally dismissive of that:

"But does that mean that Khan possesses enough evidence of rapes and sexual violence against Israelis in captivity to warrant charges against Hamas leaders?

Obviously, we have not seen all the evidence that Khan claims to possess, but despite that we can fairly confidently assess that he does not."

I mean, come on, 'we can fairly confidently assess' - can you? How exactly?

what access to the current hostages does Khan have? there is no access to Gaza for international observers? How would the ICC know is happening to any hostages?

Khan's announcement stated:

"My Office also submits there are reasonable grounds to believe that hostages taken from Israel have been kept in inhumane conditions, and that some have been subject to sexual violence, including rape, while being held in captivity. We have reached that conclusion based on medical records, contemporaneous video and documentary evidence, and interviews with victims and survivors. My Office also continues to investigate reports of sexual violence committed on 7 October."

From that, it sounds like they have interviewed and examined released hostages.  I don't see any other way of reading it. From a quick search it seems 112 hostages have been released so far.

[Lubo Moravcik]

Western standards laid bare for all to see:

I'm not sure the term "Western" is appropriate, every west European country and Canada, Australia and New Zealand support the ICC.

The USA don't.

Then the post should have referred to the USA and not to "Western".

While your post shouldn't have made the claim that "every western country" supports the ICC.

The point I was making is that the "western" world were up and arms and rightly so when Russia invaded Ukraine, sanctions, diplomats getting banned etc etc, but when Israel starts slaughtering the Palestinians on a scale that would make Pol Pot blush, there's none of the same concern.

Is there any nuance at all between the two conflicts or do you reckon they're directly comparable?

The direct comparison is that innocent women and children are being killed in both.

what other nuance do you need?

Intentionally targeted. I don't believe the Russians are Intentionally starving Ukraine yet or targeting hospitals and churches so I suppose they're not quite at the Israeli level of barbarism yet

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/patients-evacuated-after-gaza-hospital-struck-in-israeli-missile-attack/a1921804259.html

Western standards laid bare for all to see:

I'm not sure the term "Western" is appropriate, every west European country and Canada, Australia and New Zealand support the ICC.

The USA don't.

Then the post should have referred to the USA and not to "Western".

While your post shouldn't have made the claim that "every western country" supports the ICC.

The point I was making is that the "western" world were up and arms and rightly so when Russia invaded Ukraine, sanctions, diplomats getting banned etc etc, but when Israel starts slaughtering the Palestinians on a scale that would make Pol Pot blush, there's none of the same concern.

Is there any nuance at all between the two conflicts or do you reckon they're directly comparable?

The direct comparison is that innocent women and children are being killed in both.

what other nuance do you need?

Intentionally targeted. I don't believe the Russians are Intentionally starving Ukraine yet or targeting hospitals and churches so I suppose they're not quite at the Israeli level of barbarism yet

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/patients-evacuated-after-gaza-hospital-struck-in-israeli-missile-attack/a1921804259.html

Deliberate murder and cruelty against civilians is pretty much standard Russian protocol for waging war. They tried and failed to freeze the Ukrainian population, I have no doubt they would starve them to death if they could. Whole Ukrainian cities look exactly like Gaza. Completely destroyed.

[greatpoint]

Western standards laid bare for all to see:

I'm not sure the term "Western" is appropriate, every west European country and Canada, Australia and New Zealand support the ICC.

The USA don't.

Then the post should have referred to the USA and not to "Western".

While your post shouldn't have made the claim that "every western country" supports the ICC.

The point I was making is that the "western" world were up and arms and rightly so when Russia invaded Ukraine, sanctions, diplomats getting banned etc etc, but when Israel starts slaughtering the Palestinians on a scale that would make Pol Pot blush, there's none of the same concern.

Is there any nuance at all between the two conflicts or do you reckon they're directly comparable?

The direct comparison is that innocent women and children are being killed in both.

what other nuance do you need?

So given that innocent women and children were killed in the Second World War, it must therefore be directly comparable to the conflict in Gaza?

Can you see the drawbacks of using this kind of reasoning?