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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: cjx on July 15, 2018, 11:55:14 PM

Title: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on July 15, 2018, 11:55:14 PM
Keep Ball as Dublin played it yesterday (14/7) will put so many off Gaelic Football and is most cynical
Needs a rule change to combat/reduce it.

What about a free to other side (from centre line) if team passes ball into own half twice during a period of continuous possession.

That would force the team playing keep ball to think more and confusion might break it up
or
would force a team to stay forward
or
encourage the team without the ball to press up.

Any thoughts or better ideas?


Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on July 15, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
I think we have to many confusing rules already.

I think that there is a new rule created every year to curtail cute coaching.

I think if your team is good enough they will find a way.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 16, 2018, 12:00:58 AM
Then they just wouldn't cross half way line. Also heard about limiting hand passes before you have to kick. Ever do this in a training drill? You get a three yard kick pass. The kick and catch is not coming back and was terrible to watch too. Perhaps the team losing could try and go get the ball might be a help.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 16, 2018, 12:02:15 AM
Welcome to gaaboard, CJX.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:41:28 AM
I'm not one for rule changes.... but there's a lot of merit in preventing teams from passing the ball back into their own half.

By the way, making it more complex like as in "no more than twice in one phase" is unnecessary.

I think we can all agree that watching teams endlessly recycle the ball around own half is most numbing form of football. I'd think we can mostly agree that it's used as a tactic by teams in control of the game to draw opponents out of their packed defence. So the former issue needs a disincentive and the latter needs an incentive.

I'd expect that any blanket defence which knows their reward for sending 4 men forward to block off easy routes is that their opponents will cross the halfway line, then are likely to commit those 4 men. For once you get your opponents over halfway, you would regain a lot of the control. People wondering why Donegal didn't push up on Dublin on saturday are forgetting that Dublin were going 80 yards forward then 80 yards back. Your front 4-6 players effectively have to track the entire pitch to close off all the routes. It's not possible to sustain that level of chasing for an entire quarter of football, which was what Dublin were challenging them to do.

It has to be worth experimenting with in a competition.

I can't see the downside in it myself, and normally I can find a downside to any rule change.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 16, 2018, 01:49:18 AM
Are the four lads allowed to cross back into their own half once the ball does? Because that's just giving them, bt means of a rule change, what they wanted and couldn't achieve: the attacking team forced into a smaller area of the pitch, and thus easier to dispossess.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 16, 2018, 02:01:42 AM
I think we're seeing an early glimpse of a real weakness in the current competition structure. You have a good side that is very strong in defence, playing a side that they're not likely to beat. But because it's a league setup, and they'd give themselves a fair chance of winning the other two games, it's imperative that they don't get hammered.  So despite an imminent loss, there is no incentive for them to try to win if doing so risks a tanking. Imagine how the last ten minutes might have gone if Donegal had been facing exit from the tournament.

So, is it a rule change thats needed, or a return to qf knockout?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.  4  very poor games this weekend from an entertainment point of view.  Dublin just as guilty.  I believe that once you get into your opponents half you can't go back to your own half at all until the ball goes out of play.  I know we have talked about this before but this weekend for me showed that something needs to be done, I turned off the football twice this weekend to watch the hurling and the World Cup and I doubt I'm the only one.  The entertainment is disappearing at the expense of stats, blankets and keep ball.  A very sad state for a once proud and entertaining game.  I don't even know if I will watch the games next week as I'm not enjoying it at all.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2018, 08:24:35 AM
Instead of Jeff and Kammy or Arry and Gianluca AIB should get in 2 rugby league coaches to have a look at the game and suggest ways to fix it. It is all about the rules of the game and how they are applied.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 08:50:11 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 16, 2018, 01:49:18 AM
Are the four lads allowed to cross back into their own half once the ball does? Because that's just giving them, bt means of a rule change, what they wanted and couldn't achieve: the attacking team forced into a smaller area of the pitch, and thus easier to dispossess.
I'm only using 4 as a judicial number. Teams could commit as many players as they like, but whereas now they send in a couple who get jaded by the 3rd time the ball is kicked over their head, with this rule change, one man on the keeper and three along the 21 would close all backward channels, meaning another 3 men around the halfway line is all it would take to shepherd opponents out.

By the way, Dublin proved on Saturday how important it is to make it easier to force a dispossession in football. One of the things I've always preferred in football to hurling is that there is a greater reward for possession over territory, but there is genuinely no skill and therefore no entertainment in handpasaing back and forwards across an empty expanse. It's just a detriment to the game.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: highorlow on July 16, 2018, 09:04:26 AM
It's very simple. A shot clock like basketball. In this article you could replace basketball with gaelic football.


24-Second Clock Revived the Game

By Alex Sachare
Professional basketball was struggling in the early 1950s, and one look at what was taking place on the court explained why. The game was dull, all too often played at a snail's pace with one team opening up a lead and freezing the ball until time ran out. The only thing the trailing team could do was foul, thus games became rough, ragged, free throw-shooting contests.
"That was the way the game was played — get a lead and put the ball in the icebox," said Bob Cousy of the Boston Celtics, one of the game's best ballhandling guards. "Teams literally started sitting on the ball in the third quarter. Coaches are conservative by nature, and it didn't make much sense to play a wide-open game. We'd get a lead, and you'd see good ol' No. 14 doing his tricks out there."

If not Cousy, who was "good ol' No. 14," then it would be one of the other premier guards of that era like Dick McGuire, Slater Martin, Bob Davies or Andy Phillip, who would dribble until they were fouled, and the parade from one free throw line to the other would begin.

"The game had become a stalling game," Danny Biasone, owner of the Syracuse Nationals, said before his death in 1992. "A team would get ahead, even in the first half, and it would go into a stall. The other team would keep fouling, and it got to be a constant parade to the foul line. Boy, was it dull!"

Dull was the last thing NBA moguls wanted when the league was still in its infancy, struggling for a place on the American sports scene. But that's what it was:

On November 22, 1950, the Fort Wayne Pistons edged the Minneapolis Lakers 19-18 in a game where the teams scored a total of eight baskets.
Three years later, 106 fouls were called and 128 free throws shot in a playoff game between Boston and Syracuse. Cousy scored 30 points from the foul line alone.
In 1954, Syracuse beat New York 75-69 in another playoff horror show where free throws outnumbered baskets 75-34.
"If you're a promoter, that won't do," Biasone said. "You've got to have offense, because offense excites people."

Something drastic was called for, and Biasone knew what it was. "We needed a time element in our game," he said. "Other sports had limits — in baseball you get three outs to score, in football you must make 10 yards in four downs or you lose the ball. But in basketball, if you had the lead and a good ballhandler, you could play around all night."

Biasone's idea was a shot clock, giving a team 24 seconds to attempt a shot or else lose possession of the ball. To deal with the matter of excessive fouling, the Board of Governors also adopted a rule limiting the number of fouls per team per quarter, with each foul became a shooting foul after the limit was reached. The two rules complemented each other perfectly.

The 24-second shot clock made an immediate impact. In 1954-55, its first season, NBA teams averaged 93.1 points, an increase of 13.6 points over the previous season. The Boston Celtics became the first team in NBA history to average more than 100 points per game for a season, and three years later, every team did it.

"Pro basketball would not have survived without a clock," said Biasone.

Others agreed. "The adoption of the clock was the most important event in the NBA," said Maurice Podoloff, the NBA's president, while longtime Celtics coach and executive Red Auerbach called it "the single most important rule change in the last 50 years."

The 24-second clock was the most dramatic change in a league where the rules are constantly undergoing fine-tuning, but only rarely seeing major changes. When the NBA's predecessor, the Basketball Association of America, was formed in 1946, its founders adopted the college rules of the day, but changed the length of games from two 20-minute halves to four 12-minute quarters in order to give the fans more for their money. Two months into the inaugural season, the league made another change, banning zone defenses. Prohibitions against what are now termed "illegal defenses" have been on the books ever since.

Most of the game's dimensions have remained the same — the height of the basket is 10 feet, the foul line is 15 feet away from the backboard, the rim is 18 inches in diameter, the ball exactly half that. Courts differed slightly in size in the league's early years as teams played in whatever buildings were available; in today's modern arenas, every court measures 50 x 94 feet.

The supreme skills of two of the NBA's greatest big men did force changes in the dimensions of the foul lane. The width of the lane was doubled from six to 12 feet in 1951 in an effort to limit the dominance of George Mikan; more than a decade later it was further widened to 16 feet in an attempt to contain Wilt Chamberlain. Both players proved skillful enough to adapt their games to the changes, and they continued to be dominant forces in their eras.





Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: The Hill is Blue on July 16, 2018, 09:08:50 AM
Think about it lads, this is just another suggestion to try to beat Dublin without having to match them in terms of footballing quality. Awhile back the focus was on trying to concoct rules to disrupt Stephen Cluxton's kick-outs. One of the changes brought in to try to stymie Cluxton was the introduction of the "mark" - we all saw how that worked last Saturday with Dublin winning most of the long kick-outs even those from the Donegal keeper.

There's been much talk about the standard of football in the Dublin/Donegal game. Now I wonder if that is simply down to the fact that Dublin won again. If Donegal had won while holding on to the ball during the last few minutes of the game it would be talked about now as the game of the decade.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 09:09:36 AM
The problem with a shot clock is that an extra official therefore is required at every match. I'm not so sure any club would want another few thousand per year in referee fees.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: highorlow on July 16, 2018, 09:12:16 AM
QuoteThe problem with a shot clock is that an extra official therefore is required at every match. I'm not so sure any club would want another few thousand per year in referee fees.

The ref wears watchs I believe.

I see the paranoid Dub is on here having a go. This is not about Dublin.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 09:12:56 AM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on July 16, 2018, 09:08:50 AM
Think about it lads, this is just another suggestion to try to beat Dublin without having to match them in terms of footballing quality. Awhile back the focus was on trying to concoct rules to disrupt Stephen Cluxton's kick-outs. One of the changes brought in to try to stymie Cluxton was the introduction of the "mark" - we all saw how that worked last Saturday with Dublin winning most of the long kick-outs even those from the Donegal keeper.

There's been much talk about the standard of football in the Dublin/Donegal game. Now I wonder if that is simply down to the fact that Dublin won again. If Donegal had won while holding on to the ball during the last few minutes of the game it would be talked about now as the game of the decade.

Would you wise your head up.

People have been complaining about keep ball since Donegal made it a defined tactic in 2012.

All Dublin did on Saturday is highlight that better skilled and better coached players can play keep ball for a quarter of a match. So have shown that the tenplate to win is to bore opponents into submissions.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 09:16:17 AM
Quote from: highorlow on July 16, 2018, 09:12:16 AM
QuoteThe problem with a shot clock is that an extra official therefore is required at every match. I'm not so sure any club would want another few thousand per year in referee fees.

The ref wears watchs I believe.

I see the paranoid Dub is on here having a go. This is not about Dublin.

So you'd propose that if Lee Keegan and Colm Boyle were swamping Denis Moran, that the referee instead of looking for fouls, should be keeping his eye on his watch to make sure Moran doesn't exceed the allocated (say) 50 seconds.... while somehow always remembering for press reset the moment that Keegan or Boyle claims the ball, or the moment just a few milliseconds later when Moran reclaims it?

Not possible for one man to do all this friend.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: highorlow on July 16, 2018, 09:19:08 AM
QuoteNot possible for one man to do all this friend.

Let the linesmen do it. They do f**k all else.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: APM on July 16, 2018, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on July 16, 2018, 09:08:50 AM
Think about it lads, this is just another suggestion to try to beat Dublin without having to match them in terms of footballing quality. Awhile back the focus was on trying to concoct rules to disrupt Stephen Cluxton's kick-outs. One of the changes brought in to try to stymie Cluxton was the introduction of the "mark" - we all saw how that worked last Saturday with Dublin winning most of the long kick-outs even those from the Donegal keeper.

There's been much talk about the standard of football in the Dublin/Donegal game. Now I wonder if that is simply down to the fact that Dublin won again. If Donegal had won while holding on to the ball during the last few minutes of the game it would be talked about now as the game of the decade.

Talk about being introspective and defensive.  This is about more than Dublin; the Kerry - Galway game was worse. Football played like this isn't worth watching. Sligoman talks about turning the football off. 

Your response reminds me of the time Joe Kernan and others managed to get the sin-bin abolished.  It was a better rule than the black card and the strong teams at the time thought that it would do more harm to them than others. For some reason, Mickey Harte also seems to have major issues with talk of changing the rules to make it a better spectacle.  The truth is that the strong teams will adapt and Dublin or Tyrone will have nothing to fear from a change in the rules - they just might have a bit more work to do and undo with their players. 

But whether its Dublin, Donegal, Tyrone, Armagh or London, I'm sick looking at games where teams play keep ball in their own half and you and the GAA are deluded if they think that people will continue to pay €30 at time to watch this shit in a half empty stadium with zero atmosphere. 

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: didlyi on July 16, 2018, 09:34:49 AM
If ye keep tweaking rules you end up with something very different from what you started with. The 'evolving game' is rubbish. Both the soccer and hurling yesterday were played largely the same as it was played 30 years ago. Gaelic football looks like another sport entirely. The problem is with the basics of the game. Put the foot back in the game and get rid of the handpass.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 09:38:23 AM
Quote from: highorlow on July 16, 2018, 09:19:08 AM
QuoteNot possible for one man to do all this friend.

Let the linesmen do it. They do f**k all else.
Doesn't solve the problem that club sides would be paying thousands a year more for officials if it was mandatory to have two at every club league game
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BallyroanAbu on July 16, 2018, 09:45:19 AM
Quote from: didlyi on July 16, 2018, 09:34:49 AM
If ye keep tweaking rules you end up with something very different from what you started with. The 'evolving game' is rubbish. Both the soccer and hurling yesterday were played largely the same as it was played 30 years ago. Gaelic football looks like another sport entirely. The problem is with the basics of the game. Put the foot back in the game and get rid of the handpass.

Soccer is very different from 30 years ago,  the tackle from behind was outlawed.  I remember hearing an interview with Maradona talking about the effect of rule changes have had the major one being tackle from behind allowed the good players to flourish. In the 70's lads were trying to maim the flair players.  The Goalie was allowed to pick up the ball on a pass back from their own team, are you too young to remember the 1990 world cup, Ireland's tactic pass it back to Packie who hoofed it up front.  Ireland v Holland excitment personified NOT.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 16, 2018, 09:46:56 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on July 16, 2018, 02:01:42 AM
I think we're seeing an early glimpse of a real weakness in the current competition structure. You have a good side that is very strong in defence, playing a side that they're not likely to beat. But because it's a league setup, and they'd give themselves a fair chance of winning the other two games, it's imperative that they don't get hammered.  So despite an imminent loss, there is no incentive for them to try to win if doing so risks a tanking. Imagine how the last ten minutes might have gone if Donegal had been facing exit from the tournament.

So, is it a rule change thats needed, or a return to qf knockout?

Ffs will you wait to at least we've played two games in the competition before blaming it for all the games ills. It's virtually knock out for Kerry in Clones next weekend, let's see how that goes. It's virtually winner takes all in Omagh. It's knock out stage for Kildare and Roscommon, both at home. There's plenty to get excited about if we just stop wringing our fecking hands after every bad game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on July 16, 2018, 09:50:29 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.  4  very poor games this weekend from an entertainment point of view.  Dublin just as guilty.  I believe that once you get into your opponents half you can't go back to your own half at all until the ball goes out of play.  I know we have talked about this before but this weekend for me showed that something needs to be done, I turned off the football twice this weekend to watch the hurling and the World Cup and I doubt I'm the only one.  The entertainment is disappearing at the expense of stats, blankets and keep ball.  A very sad state for a once proud and entertaining game.  I don't even know if I will watch the games next week as I'm not enjoying it at all.

I could've wrote the same myself.

Football is pure piss nowadays.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BallyroanAbu on July 16, 2018, 09:53:24 AM
There is nothing wrong with changing rules to promote attack, makes it more exciting and if they don't work you try something else.  I like good defense but the wider audience likes attack and it should be promoted.

A shot clock would be interesting after a while it would become instinctive to speed up your attack.  I don't know if it would work but nothing wrong with trying it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: TheGreatest on July 16, 2018, 09:56:07 AM
Regarding the last 10 minutes of the Dublin v Donegal match, Dublin are not there to entertain, they are there to win.

Some matches are very defensive, stale and tight, others are free flowing attacking football. Like in every sport there are good games and bad games, I believe this year is heading for the highest scoring championship to date. A lot good games this year.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BallyroanAbu on July 16, 2018, 10:02:50 AM
Laois V Dublin
Kerry V Cork
Cork V Tyrone
Tyrone V Roscommon
All high scoring were they good games ?
The Super 8's is a positive in the GAA but 3 out of the 4 games were quite poor to watch this can't be a good thing.  I don't have the answer to improving the game but should we not be talking about it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: manfromdelmonte on July 16, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
Maybe just push up and go 14 v 14 out the field?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 16, 2018, 10:05:03 AM
The problem isn't the last 10 minutes of the Dublin/Donegal game.
The problem is the full 70 minutes of the Galway/Kerry game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 16, 2018, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: BallyroanAbu on July 16, 2018, 10:02:50 AM
Laois V Dublin
Kerry V Cork
Cork V Tyrone
Tyrone V Roscommon
All high scoring were they good games ?
The Super 8's is a positive in the GAA but 3 out of the 4 games were quite poor to watch this can't be a good thing.  I don't have the answer to improving the game but should we not be talking about it.

Those games being poor spectacles are nothing to do with hand passes, back passes, shot clocks etc. The teams are just unevenly matched and until a full and fair assessment of how we progress in terms of funding equality then we will always get teams who feel they have little option than to play conservatively. The Dubs have no excuse though but for me it does show the first little chink of weakness that they feel they had to do that. Maybe they are beginning to feel a little bit of the pressure of being unbeatable.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: APM on July 16, 2018, 10:18:13 AM
Quote from: didlyi on July 16, 2018, 09:34:49 AM
If ye keep tweaking rules you end up with something very different from what you started with. The 'evolving game' is rubbish. Both the soccer and hurling yesterday were played largely the same as it was played 30 years ago. Gaelic football looks like another sport entirely. The problem is with the basics of the game. Put the foot back in the game and get rid of the handpass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k

Plenty of handpassing here - OK less of it in the middle of the field - but the handpasssed goals were a joke.  The natural inclination of football is to evolve and rules need changed when that evolution takes it it a direction where people don't want to watch.  Other sports do it for the same reasons - eg Rugby
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on July 16, 2018, 09:08:50 AM
Think about it lads, this is just another suggestion to try to beat Dublin without having to match them in terms of footballing quality. Awhile back the focus was on trying to concoct rules to disrupt Stephen Cluxton's kick-outs. One of the changes brought in to try to stymie Cluxton was the introduction of the "mark" - we all saw how that worked last Saturday with Dublin winning most of the long kick-outs even those from the Donegal keeper.

There's been much talk about the standard of football in the Dublin/Donegal game. Now I wonder if that is simply down to the fact that Dublin won again. If Donegal had won while holding on to the ball during the last few minutes of the game it would be talked about now as the game of the decade.

You are way off the mark there.  Nothing to do with Dublin bashing, this is mostly neutral supporters expressing how poor the fare that was on offer this weekend.  One good game won't change that, the game is losing its entertainment value which will lead to neutrals like myself deciding not to watch games or go to games.  I assume the gaa know we have a major problem when the entertainment is removed from something that is supposed to entertain..


Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:00:56 AM
1. We've heard it all before several times. Does anyone else feel that there is always excessive negativity around the quality of Gaelic  football. There are always bad games in any sport, but the media, backed up by every disgruntled losing supporter gets the boot into Gaelic football every time we don't have a 4:18 to 5:15 classic. There were some superb pieces of skill yesterday : evasion skills, goal and point finishing , superb tackling , fielding , kick outs . The GAA fails to promote this but instead tolerates negative portrayal of our games epitomised by Rourke, Brolly, Spillane , who are GAA equivalent of the 2 old boys on the balcony in the muppets. I worry about the influence and accessibility of Sky but Canavan and McGuinness excellence compared to RTE is like day and night.
2. The super 8s concept is beyond farcical and I can't believe that this concept was passed by the vast majority of counties who have no chance of involvement, talk about turkeys voting for Christmas . Where do I start? 75% of counties not involved, built around an unfair provincial and qualifier structure, reinforcing inequalities , The negative PR of an empty Croke Park, Croke Park being Dublin's "neutral" venue😂, possibility of dead rubber games, "keeping the score down as opposed to trying to win , potential safety issues around packed inadequate home venues , cumulative prices for punters particularly families, more exposure for the Naysayers led by the 3 muppets.
3. Time for a 2 tiered championship structure , Gradings on the basis of league status, revitalising the league, with an alternative route to latter stages via provincial championships.
4. More compact county season , with all teams extended involvement until the last 8. More county games, lower prices.
5. Distinct Club competitions with or without county players to allow club competitions to proceed without county players but then have loads of games with their county players back.
6. GAA payoff the 3 RTE muppets (only half joking) and insist on a more positive promotion of our national games by our national broadcaster
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:18:10 AM
Regarding rule changes.
Agree with wobbler , it mustn't be taxing for referees, and can't involve a second official. It must be workable at all levels.
I would suggest that limiting to 5 consecutive fist passes is the only workable solution. The relieving kick pass in these circumstances must travel at least 15m in a forward direction (to avoid players introducing a dinky short kickpass or a Na ck-pass to keeper)  to overcome the new rule .

This would have to be trialled in a pre-season competitive setting eg Mckenna cup
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 11:20:18 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:18:10 AM
Regarding rule changes.
Agree with wobbler , it mustn't be taxing for referees, and can't involve a second official. It must be workable at all levels.
I would suggest that limiting to 5 consecutive fist passes is the only workable solution. The relieving kick pass in these circumstances must travel at least 15m in a forward direction (to avoid players introducing a dinky short kickpass or a Na ck-pass to keeper)  to overcome the new rule .

This would have to be trialled in a pre-season competitive setting eg Mckenna cup

Sorry 6th Sam, but you've contradicted yourself here.

If it mustn't be taxing for referees, it cannot involve making them keep pass counters in their head, and force them to adjudge the direction and distance of kick passes during normal play.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BallyroanAbu on July 16, 2018, 11:20:47 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:00:56 AM
1. We've heard it all before several times. Does anyone else feel that there is always excessive negativity around the quality of Gaelic  football. There are always bad games in any sport, but the media, backed up by every disgruntled losing supporter gets the boot into Gaelic football every time we don't have a 4:18 to 5:15 classic. There were some superb pieces of skill yesterday : evasion skills, goal and point finishing , superb tackling , fielding , kick outs . The GAA fails to promote this but instead tolerates negative portrayal of our games epitomised by Rourke, Brolly, Spillane , who are GAA equivalent of the 2 old boys on the balcony in the muppets. I worry about the influence and accessibility of Sky but Canavan and McGuinness excellence compared to RTE is like day and night.
2. The super 8s concept is beyond farcical and I can't believe that this concept was passed by the vast majority of counties who have no chance of involvement, talk about turkeys voting for Christmas . Where do I start? 75% of counties not involved, built around an unfair provincial and qualifier structure, reinforcing inequalities , The negative PR of an empty Croke Park, Croke Park being Dublin's "neutral" venue😂, possibility of dead rubber games, "keeping the score down as opposed to trying to win , potential safety issues around packed inadequate home venues , cumulative prices for punters particularly families, more exposure for the Naysayers led by the 3 muppets.
3. Time for a 2 tiered championship structure , Gradings on the basis of league status, revitalising the league, with an alternative route to latter stages via provincial championships.
4. More compact county season , with all teams extended involvement until the last 8. More county games, lower prices.
5. Distinct Club competitions with or without county players to allow club competitions to proceed without county players but then have loads of games with their county players back.
6. GAA payoff the 3 RTE muppets (only half joking) and insist on a more positive promotion of our national games by our national broadcaster

I love a good football match, at the moment we are getting some but not enough of them.  The super 8's actually has exposed further that their may be only 2 or 3 teams each year at an elite level and the rest are a long way behind.  But this happens in sport, but I don't think it can be denied that the last two weekends. In what was considered more competitive fare both weekends 3/4 matches were awful.  That's not a huge sample size and I am not saying we have to change things but surely we have to look at things that may improve the spectacle. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Paudi Meehan on July 16, 2018, 11:22:44 AM
Half way line back pass exclusion is the only means of addressing this. Of course will keep it in their defence for as long as they can but even that at least offers opponents a target they can go after
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 16, 2018, 11:23:59 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:00:56 AM
1. We've heard it all before several times. Does anyone else feel that there is always excessive negativity around the quality of Gaelic  football. There are always bad games in any sport, but the media, backed up by every disgruntled losing supporter gets the boot into Gaelic football every time we don't have a 4:18 to 5:15 classic. There were some superb pieces of skill yesterday : evasion skills, goal and point finishing , superb tackling , fielding , kick outs . The GAA fails to promote this but instead tolerates negative portrayal of our games epitomised by Rourke, Brolly, Spillane , who are GAA equivalent of the 2 old boys on the balcony in the muppets. I worry about the influence and accessibility of Sky but Canavan and McGuinness excellence compared to RTE is like day and night.
2. The super 8s concept is beyond farcical and I can't believe that this concept was passed by the vast majority of counties who have no chance of involvement, talk about turkeys voting for Christmas . Where do I start? 75% of counties not involved, built around an unfair provincial and qualifier structure, reinforcing inequalities , The negative PR of an empty Croke Park, Croke Park being Dublin's "neutral" venue😂, possibility of dead rubber games, "keeping the score down as opposed to trying to win , potential safety issues around packed inadequate home venues , cumulative prices for punters particularly families, more exposure for the Naysayers led by the 3 muppets.
3. Time for a 2 tiered championship structure , Gradings on the basis of league status, revitalising the league, with an alternative route to latter stages via provincial championships.
4. More compact county season , with all teams extended involvement until the last 8. More county games, lower prices.
5. Distinct Club competitions with or without county players to allow club competitions to proceed without county players but then have loads of games with their county players back.
6. GAA payoff the 3 RTE muppets (only half joking) and insist on a more positive promotion of our national games by our national broadcaster

Nope.
There was a time I would have agreed with you, particularly in the era of so-called 'puke football' when there were actually some great teams and great football being played, but not anymore.
Forget about media negativity, forget about the 'purists' etc.
Our own eyes don't lie and I have never had less interest in watching inter-county gaelic football than I do right now.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 11:20:18 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 11:18:10 AM
Regarding rule changes.
Agree with wobbler , it mustn't be taxing for referees, and can't involve a second official. It must be workable at all levels.
I would suggest that limiting to 5 consecutive fist passes is the only workable solution. The relieving kick pass in these circumstances must travel at least 15m in a forward direction (to avoid players introducing a dinky short kickpass or a Na ck-pass to keeper)  to overcome the new rule .

This would have to be trialled in a pre-season competitive setting eg Mckenna cup

Sorry 6th Sam, but you've contradicted yourself here.

If it mustn't be taxing for referees, it cannot involve making them keep pass counters in their head, and force them to adjudge the direction and distance of kick passes during normal play.

It's not as complicated as it sounds ,Rugby referees have to judge a backpass at all levels . And referees already count out the 5 seconds of advantage. I think counting out 5 handpasses is relatively simple but needs tested.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
But it's not just 5 keep-ball passes they'd be counting. It'd be 5 handpasses anywhere on the park, when his primary role should be identifying technical fouls, and those 5 passes would be intermingled with tackles and advantages.

Also do tell me what should happen if the fourth consecutive fist pass by Monaghan finds Conor McManus in the very top corner of a pitch. He obviously can't kick it forward at that point. Or are you going to complicate things by having different rules for different areas of the pitch?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on July 16, 2018, 12:31:36 PM
Limiting handpasses is a load of nonsense.

Dublin did as much kick passing as handpassing in the last 10 minutes, and some great attacking moves involve handpassing and off the shoulder running to breach defences.

The shot clock as well is a load of bull. Unless the aim is to encourage blanket defences.

Almost all the suggestions would benefit the team the brings everyone back. The blanket defence now depends on the opposition being thick and playing into your hands. Now, if a team were good enough to get themselves 4 or 5 points up, then they've every right to revert to blanket defence to keep ahead (if they think that's a clever tactic).
But a team 4 or 5 points down and hoping the opposition kick it in to their forwards who are all either tightly marked or doubly marked?? Why the hell would you do that when you have 3 or 4 free men in the half back line?

If you want to make a rule change, then the only one that makes sense would be a requirement to keep at least 4 or 5 men in the opposition half at all times.   
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
But it's not just 5 keep-ball passes they'd be counting. It'd be 5 handpasses anywhere on the park, when his primary role should be identifying technical fouls, and those 5 passes would be intermingled with tackles and advantages.

Also do tell me what should happen if the fourth consecutive fist pass by Monaghan finds Conor McManus in the very top corner of a pitch. He obviously can't kick it forward at that point. Or are you going to complicate things by having different rules for different areas of the pitch?
I take your point , the  referees job is difficult . I think the advantage rule is an exsmple of a good rule which is unfortunately dependent on the capability of the referee , which has made it quite controversial.
Regarding Mcmanus in the corner, teams will learn to avoid such situations and avoidance of this becomes part of the decision making process on and off the ball.
The back pass is simple and I don't accept refs will have much difficulty with this. As happens in rugby at lower levels, it has to be a clear forward pass, borderline passes will not be penalised.
The 5 fist pass rule is also simple in that the referee has to warn the team before the last pass, giving the team a chance to play it. Ie "no more fist passes" this happens in rugby league with 4th tackle, ( though to be fair the tackles and restarts are much slower and easy to count) . These rule changes are experiments and must be tested in competitive games at club and county level before becoming law.
Perhaps the simplest rule change( and there is precedent with this in 7s football ) no back passes in your own half. This would have prevented a lot of the negative play yesterday and invites opposing teams to push up in the opponents half, as the team in possession has less options.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 12:42:02 PM
How much of a problem is this at all levels?
I don't believe it to be a big issue, and don't like seeing new rules being suggested due to a few games at inter county level. This isn't epidemic at all levels.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 16, 2018, 12:45:53 PM
Football for the most part at county level is very sore in the eyes. Is a mix of uneven matches and the horrible new style with 15 going into defence and breaking at speed though some haven't mastered that. As the managers would say it is all about the result which I suppose it is but I would not be interested in watching it.
I find club football to be very good though here in Tyrone and much more looking forward to that championship.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:50:24 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 12:42:02 PM
How much of a problem is this at all levels?
I don't believe it to be a big issue, and don't like seeing new rules being suggested due to a few games at inter county level. This isn't epidemic at all levels.

It's borderline epidemic in Down division 1 club football, and sadly Dublin have just validated it as an approach.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:53:49 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
But it's not just 5 keep-ball passes they'd be counting. It'd be 5 handpasses anywhere on the park, when his primary role should be identifying technical fouls, and those 5 passes would be intermingled with tackles and advantages.

Also do tell me what should happen if the fourth consecutive fist pass by Monaghan finds Conor McManus in the very top corner of a pitch. He obviously can't kick it forward at that point. Or are you going to complicate things by having different rules for different areas of the pitch?
I take your point , the  referees job is difficult . I think the advantage rule is an exsmple of a good rule which is unfortunately dependent on the capability of the referee , which has made it quite controversial.
Regarding Mcmanus in the corner, teams will learn to avoid such situations and avoidance of this becomes part of the decision making process on and off the ball.
The back pass is simple and I don't accept refs will have much difficulty with this. As happens in rugby at lower levels, it has to be a clear forward pass, borderline passes will not be penalised.
The 5 fist pass rule is also simple in that the referee has to warn the team before the last pass, giving the team a chance to play it. Ie "no more fist passes" this happens in rugby league with 4th tackle, ( though to be fair the tackles and restarts are much slower and easy to count) . These rule changes are experiments and must be tested in competitive games at club and county level before becoming law.
Perhaps the simplest rule change( and there is precedent with this in 7s football ) no back passes in your own half. This would have prevented a lot of the negative play yesterday and invites opposing teams to push up in the opponents half, as the team in possession has less options.

Referring rugby league isn't comparable. Kicking the ball a distance whereby the referee is out of earshot only happens every 6 plays, and even then it's eminently predictable that the receiver will go to ground within the new few seconds, allowing the ref to stay up with play.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: J70 on July 16, 2018, 01:01:28 PM
Serious over reaction here. It's not as if what Dublin did happens all the time. I remember Meath doing it to Kerry in the 2001 AI semi (with 15 mins left) to shouts of "ole", then Galway returning the favour in that year's final. I remember Donegal doing it in the 2012 semi to Cork, although Cork managed to finally close down David Walsh, turn it over and score a goal. Kerry did it to us in the 2014 final. But it's not a common feature of intercounty football and definitely not something warranting knee jerk rule changes.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 16, 2018, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 16, 2018, 01:01:28 PM
Serious over reaction here. It's not as if what Dublin did happens all the time. I remember Meath doing it to Kerry in the 2001 AI semi (with 15 mins left) to shouts of "ole", then Galway returning the favour in that year's final. I remember Donegal doing it in the 2012 semi to Cork, although Cork managed to finally close down David Walsh, turn it over and score a goal. Kerry did it to us in the 2014 final. But it's not a common feature of intercounty football and definitely not something warranting knee jerk rule changes.

Its been a mess long before that carryon at the weekend.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 01:08:43 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:50:24 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 12:42:02 PM
How much of a problem is this at all levels?
I don't believe it to be a big issue, and don't like seeing new rules being suggested due to a few games at inter county level. This isn't epidemic at all levels.

It's borderline epidemic in Down division 1 club football, and sadly Dublin have just validated it as an approach.
How about the other divisions and other age levels? Is it always successful or do some teams mess it up? Personally I don't think it is a major problem that requires a rule change.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 16, 2018, 01:27:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 16, 2018, 01:01:28 PM
Serious over reaction here. It's not as if what Dublin did happens all the time. I remember Meath doing it to Kerry in the 2001 AI semi (with 15 mins left) to shouts of "ole", then Galway returning the favour in that year's final. I remember Donegal doing it in the 2012 semi to Cork, although Cork managed to finally close down David Walsh, turn it over and score a goal. Kerry did it to us in the 2014 final. But it's not a common feature of intercounty football and definitely not something warranting knee jerk rule changes.

Nope, that's not what happened.
In both cases, you had a team that was completely out of sight on the scoreboard and were so dominant that the other side couldn't get the ball back.
I'd wager if you looked at the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of either of those games, vs. the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of the game at the weekend, the difference would be clearly illustrated.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: joemamas on July 16, 2018, 01:51:44 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 16, 2018, 01:27:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 16, 2018, 01:01:28 PM
Serious over reaction here. It's not as if what Dublin did happens all the time. I remember Meath doing it to Kerry in the 2001 AI semi (with 15 mins left) to shouts of "ole", then Galway returning the favour in that year's final. I remember Donegal doing it in the 2012 semi to Cork, although Cork managed to finally close down David Walsh, turn it over and score a goal. Kerry did it to us in the 2014 final. But it's not a common feature of intercounty football and definitely not something warranting knee jerk rule changes.

Nope, that's not what happened.
In both cases, you had a team that was completely out of sight on the scoreboard and were so dominant that the other side couldn't get the ball back.
I'd wager if you looked at the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of either of those games, vs. the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of the game at the weekend, the difference would be clearly illustrated.

This is absolutely not the first season that Dublin have played keep ball. Kilkenny (Favorite for footballer of the year  ::) ) was at the same shite for the last two years from the Q/finals on, he appeared to be the designated "footballer" instructed to solo back to his own goals.

IMO, a fair bit of the criticism of Dublin inc. was probably justified, money , home games etc.
However, even as I Mayo man, I always said well at least they are trying to play Gaelic football and they kick the ball and are decent to watch, and for the most part I ignored the off field criticisms.

This crap that they feel necessary to do to close out a game, can be potentially so off putting to a regular Gaelic football supporter, that it has the potential to keep people away from going to games.

That is from somebody who back in the day (when the ball was kicked ) would get as much enjoyment from watching out of watching an u14 or u16 game across the street in the local football pitch.

Just depressing to watch that.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 16, 2018, 01:57:52 PM
Yeah it's not great to watch. But this is about winning football matches. If the other team don't like it they should push up and try and win the ball back. Looking for a rule to stop it is professional whinging. Catch a grip ffs.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:53:49 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
But it's not just 5 keep-ball passes they'd be counting. It'd be 5 handpasses anywhere on the park, when his primary role should be identifying technical fouls, and those 5 passes would be intermingled with tackles and advantages.

Also do tell me what should happen if the fourth consecutive fist pass by Monaghan finds Conor McManus in the very top corner of a pitch. He obviously can't kick it forward at that point. Or are you going to complicate things by having different rules for different areas of the pitch?
I take your point , the  referees job is difficult . I think the advantage rule is an exsmple of a good rule which is unfortunately dependent on the capability of the referee , which has made it quite controversial.
Regarding Mcmanus in the corner, teams will learn to avoid such situations and avoidance of this becomes part of the decision making process on and off the ball.
The back pass is simple and I don't accept refs will have much difficulty with this. As happens in rugby at lower levels, it has to be a clear forward pass, borderline passes will not be penalised.
The 5 fist pass rule is also simple in that the referee has to warn the team before the last pass, giving the team a chance to play it. Ie "no more fist passes" this happens in rugby league with 4th tackle, ( though to be fair the tackles and restarts are much slower and easy to count) . These rule changes are experiments and must be tested in competitive games at club and county level before becoming law.
Perhaps the simplest rule change( and there is precedent with this in 7s football ) no back passes in your own half. This would have prevented a lot of the negative play yesterday and invites opposing teams to push up in the opponents half, as the team in possession has less options.

Referring rugby league isn't comparable. Kicking the ball a distance whereby the referee is out of earshot only happens every 6 plays, and even then it's eminently predictable that the receiver will go to ground within the new few seconds, allowing the ref to stay up with play.

I've already said is not directly comparable in rugby league because of the timing but we need to look at alternatives to stop these incessant 2 yard backward handpasses.. Perhaps keep it simple with the no back pass in own half rule.
13 a side would also be a positive simple development
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 16, 2018, 01:57:52 PM
Yeah it's not great to watch. But this is about winning football matches. If the other team don't like it they should push up and try and win the ball back. Looking for a rule to stop it is professional whinging. Catch a grip ffs.

I guess you think the removal of the backpass to the goalkeeper  in soccer was a terrible concept too?

Funny enough I've never heard anyone advocating for its return
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LooseCannon on July 16, 2018, 02:05:43 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:50:24 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 12:42:02 PM
How much of a problem is this at all levels?
I don't believe it to be a big issue, and don't like seeing new rules being suggested due to a few games at inter county level. This isn't epidemic at all levels.

It's borderline epidemic in Down division 1 club football, and sadly Dublin have just validated it as an approach.

Thanks to Poacher?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: rosnarun on July 16, 2018, 02:08:24 PM
my tuppence is there is a much easier solution to the 'Problem' without changing any rules .
allow players to tackle the man in possession its easy enough  to play DONKEY/keepball  in soccer but in Gaelic it requires no skill at all using your hand and getting get a free as soon as you are touched which wis usually followed by a troll along the grounds a visit from the medical team and up to m ins wasted.
I don't know any one who wants tackles reffere they way they are so how did it come to thisl
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on July 16, 2018, 02:05:43 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 12:50:24 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 12:42:02 PM
How much of a problem is this at all levels?
I don't believe it to be a big issue, and don't like seeing new rules being suggested due to a few games at inter county level. This isn't epidemic at all levels.

It's borderline epidemic in Down division 1 club football, and sadly Dublin have just validated it as an approach.

Thanks to Poacher?

If you want to believe that Ballyholland's coach has more influence on how teams approach the game than what they see working successfully at county level, go on ahead.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: dec on July 16, 2018, 02:10:00 PM
Ban the handpass
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 16, 2018, 02:13:40 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 16, 2018, 01:57:52 PM
Yeah it's not great to watch. But this is about winning football matches. If the other team don't like it they should push up and try and win the ball back. Looking for a rule to stop it is professional whinging. Catch a grip ffs.

I guess you think the removal of the backpass to the goalkeeper  in soccer was a terrible concept too?

Funny enough I've never heard anyone advocating for its return

That's a totally different game in which the keeper was the only player allowed to pick the ball up. Look at Barcelona then if you want to compare like with like. When they gave Utd the run around in 2009 & 2010 no one advocated for a rule change. Get better, push up, overcome it. Instead people want the rules changed cause the big boys won't give us the ball. It's the playground equivalent of going home and telling your Ma. Have some self respect for christ's sake.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Maiden1 on July 16, 2018, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 16, 2018, 01:57:52 PM
Yeah it's not great to watch. But this is about winning football matches. If the other team don't like it they should push up and try and win the ball back. Looking for a rule to stop it is professional whinging. Catch a grip ffs.

I agree with that.  Like all sport some matches are good some are not so good.  The Sunday game and Spillane and Brolly in particular never have anything good to say about anything and it sort of becomes contagious to join in and agree with them.

All teams will try to run the clock down if they winning with 5 minutes to go, I've no doubt the magic sponge came out for a few Dublin players to take time off the clock when they beat Kerry in 1892 and a few Kerry players asked the ref to make sure he added time on for that.  Things like a wet ball changes a match a lot so had a big impact on the way the Kerry Galway game went.  Tyrone hammered Roscommon so people are giving out because it was too 1 sided, do they want to make it like the Indy 500 where they bring on a car to slow down the car in the lead to let the other cars catch up to make it more exciting?  If it had been 12-11 they would still be giving out.  If people want a really exciting game have Kilkenny footballers play a Sligo Rovers select team.  No one could defend properly, there would be no tactics, 15 vs 15, the keeper might not be able to kick the ball out properly, it could end up 4-22 to 3-27.  It could be great to watch.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on July 16, 2018, 02:36:50 PM
I remember Ros doing a lorry load of handpassing in the closing minutes of the 1991 CF replay as we held onto a 1 point lead.
Mind you it was up around the half way line though.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: APM on July 16, 2018, 02:55:06 PM
Quote from: APM on January 26, 2018, 12:50:10 PM
It's a number of things:
Not as good to watch
The blanket means that as a spectacle the game isn't as good.  I don't care what anyone says, but this business of passing the ball around in an arc around the 50 is not as good to watch as quick ball into a the full forward line, with guys like Mickey Linden, Marsden, Canavan and McDonnell out in front of their marker and taking on their men.  We just don't see as much of this in today's game as 2001.

Perception and negativity
Why would I be bothered going to games if the so-called experts keep telling me that the product is rubbish.  Notwithstanding what I have said above, I still get a kick out of watching football and we still have some fantastic games, but when the very pundits that you would expect to be promoting the game on TV are saying that every game is shite, it's little wonder attendances are falling.  The amount of negativity surrounding the games is at an all time high and it is now in vogue at all levels, from pundits down to club level, to criticise county football. 

Hammerings
In 2001 there were some hammerings, but I don't think there were so many as there are now.  Leinster was competitive.  Ulster, despite the fact that two teams dominated from 1999 to 2010, was still competitive.  Dublin matches now literally aren't worth watching until they reach the Semi-Final or Final.  They are playing at a professional level.   

Over Exposure
I remember thinking that with so many games televised and so much coverage back around 04, that supporters would lap it up for a while, but that eventually people would take it for granted and less would do them. Take the first Ulster Final that went to HQ in 2004.  There was 60,000 there.  Only 30,000 for the Ulster Final Replay in '05.  The qualifier effect was alive and well, with Sligo, Fermanagh, Limerick, Derry, Donegal getting good runs.  There were loads of novel pairings - I remember Sligo and Kildare I think attracting a great crowd on a Saturday night around '04.

Half Empty Stadiums
There is rarely a decent atmosphere in a half-full Croke Park.  It looks terrible on TV and exacerbates the notion that we have a poor product.  I cannot understand organisers taking smallish games to big stadiums.  Better to have a small ground filled to capacity, because the atmosphere is all part of the product.

I posted this before. As far as I'm concerned it sums up exactly what happened with the Super 8s at the weekend. And the big concern for the GAA is that most of these issues are like a viscous circle:

Weaker team gets hammered - plays more defensively (Fermanagh, Carlow)
Weaker team plays blanket to compete
Game is boring, hard to watch for neutrals in particular
People stop watching
Pundits complain about quality
More and more people agree - fewer people attend
Stadiums half empty - atmosphere is crap
Pundits complain about lack of intensity
Those that do attend, question what's the point, game is on TV, I'll see the next game


Can't understand why people bury their head in the sand and can't see this, just because their own county has reached the latter end of the championship and they see any change as a risk to their chance of success, whenever the entire product is at risk. 

The GAA's answer is to have more games with fewer people at each game - its crazy!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 04:16:56 PM
Top class post APM.

More games with fewer people at them is the ultimate tell tale sign that we are in a cycle of descent.

To be honest I'm flabbergasted that so many people on this thread are determined that lesser talented  teams who don't expose themselves to be ritually slaughtered by stronger teams, are the nub of the problem.

——

Trailer, soccer might be a different game but it faced a very similar problem whereby a team in front could kill the clock by continually booting the ball back to a safe area and take a minute or two off the remaining time.

Teams will always find ways to kill the clock to some extent, but when the rules of the game permit outrageous timekilling, it destroys sport as a spectacle.

Donegal could have stepped 6 men forward with 15 minutes to go on Saturday, but they'd have been absolutely destroyed for fitness, as they would have been chasing a ball moving side to side, back to front, side to side for that entire period.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 16, 2018, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 04:16:56 PM
Top class post APM.

More games with fewer people at them is the ultimate tell tale sign that we are in a cycle of descent.

To be honest I'm flabbergasted that so many people on this thread are determined that lesser talented  teams who don't expose themselves to be ritually slaughtered by stronger teams, are the nub of the problem.

——

Trailer, soccer might be a different game but it faced a very similar problem whereby a team in front could kill the clock by continually booting the ball back to a safe area and take a minute or two off the remaining time.

Teams will always find ways to kill the clock to some extent, but when the rules of the game permit outrageous timekilling, it destroys sport as a spectacle.

Donegal could have stepped 6 men forward with 15 minutes to go on Saturday, but they'd have been absolutely destroyed for fitness, as they would have been chasing a ball moving side to side, back to front, side to side for that entire period.

No problem. Let's change all the rules.
If a team in Div 4 scores a goal it should count for 6 points against a Div 1,2,3 side. If its a point it counts for 3
Div 3 against Div 1 or 2 Goal = 5 points. Point = 2
Div 2 against Div 1 Goal = 4 points. Point = 1.5 points

Sorry if this sounds mental but this is what you are looking to do. Change rules because some teams are better than others. If you understand football you will understand how valuable possession is. It's is crucial. For years teams weren't punished for kicking it away. Now if you kick the ball away or are turned over you are punished and it's very difficult to get the ball back from a top team. To me that is a skill on it's own. Some people want a return to the catch and kick muck of the 70's. When you understand the game and understand why Dublin hold the ball, you then understand the skill in it. It is not easy to do.

Monaghan have one of the smallest picks, yet they get the best out of what they have. Cork have a huge pick and they are muck. But it's all Croke Park's fault. And the rules. And Money. It's definitely not the Counties fault because that would mean looking inside the circle and having to solve the problem. It's easier to moan and complain.   
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Itchy on July 16, 2018, 04:57:10 PM
I think there are some simple changes that should be looked at. For example I do like the idea that you should not be able to play the ball backwards into your own half when you cross the half way line. However, even better is that you must at all times have 3 players in the opposition half of the field - i think that would be the game changer. In fact I think these players should be nominated and have to wear an arm band or something so it is easy for the ref to see them.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on July 16, 2018, 05:05:10 PM
Fear of change fear of rule change is a mistake I think. If you want people engaged and playing a game you must keep up with tactics and trends by making the game attractive and that mean rules to assist this (as in NFL and basketball in USA and rugby).

On reflection a shot clock (1 minute) might work best (the crowd could join in the countdown more craic more pressure on the keep ballers).

But on a big pitch with up to 30 players what constitutes a shot? Perhaps a score, wide, line ball (conceded) or kick going in the opponents large rectangle (more precise than parallelogram). Whatever it must work at adult club level as well (Club being key to everything not ancient English defined Counties). It could only apply in 2nd half.

Penalty a free at point on field ball was when shot clock stopped  (more encouragement for keep ballers to move forward).

Worth reading O'Rourke's excellent analysis of Tyrone's set up on RTE.IE site and thinking on how that set up impacts on all this. Let's see what happens if Dubs go 5 points up in first quarter against Throne on Saturday. (plans B and C required)

And be certain this is not about Dublin its about preserving and expanding Gaelic Football; its reach, appeal and value to us all.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 04:36:02 PM
Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.
No that's not what I'm proposing.

What I'd like to see is that it's more difficult for a winning team to kill the game.

You might call that "pathetic".

But soccer took drastic steps to prevent this, in the form of removing the backpass and limiting goalkeepers to 5 seconds with the ball.

Basketball took drastic steps in the form of not being able to back past the halfway line, then the shot clock.

NFL has downs and a shotclock to ensure teams advance.

Rugby league's fifth tackle rule ensures regular turnovers.

Rugby union has an inbuilt mechanism to devalue clock killing throigh the danger of penalty kicks conceded in your own half.

Aussie Rules doesn't need so much of a precaution, as the penalty for being caught in possession close to goals is so severe.

All of these are constructs, rules, which have been designed to keep the play moving. All of the above also tweak their rules on a default basis to react to coaches exploiting weaknesses in their rules.

It's called common sense. Expecting that sporting rules should remain untouched over time goes against the concept of human evolution.

And while you do get shite games in every code in every sport, none of these suffers from the malaise, apathy, and downright disenchantment  which is sweeping through Gaelic football.


Pathetic? I do wonder.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: J70 on July 16, 2018, 05:24:18 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 16, 2018, 01:27:55 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 16, 2018, 01:01:28 PM
Serious over reaction here. It's not as if what Dublin did happens all the time. I remember Meath doing it to Kerry in the 2001 AI semi (with 15 mins left) to shouts of "ole", then Galway returning the favour in that year's final. I remember Donegal doing it in the 2012 semi to Cork, although Cork managed to finally close down David Walsh, turn it over and score a goal. Kerry did it to us in the 2014 final. But it's not a common feature of intercounty football and definitely not something warranting knee jerk rule changes.

Nope, that's not what happened.
In both cases, you had a team that was completely out of sight on the scoreboard and were so dominant that the other side couldn't get the ball back.
I'd wager if you looked at the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of either of those games, vs. the number of scores in the last 10 minutes of the game at the weekend, the difference would be clearly illustrated.

Technically you may be correct in that Dublin were focused purely on keeping the ball, but the hand passes and the "oles" were absolutely part of it, especially in that Meath-Kerry semi-final.

Darren Fay had some regrets about the day, interestingly:

http://www.the42.ie/meath-darren-fay-four-kings-1176933-Dec2013/?amp=1 (http://www.the42.ie/meath-darren-fay-four-kings-1176933-Dec2013/?amp=1)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:29:11 PM
And by the way Trailer, stop being a smug p***k about understanding the game.

If I was in Dublin's shoes I'd do exactly the same thing. It makes complete sense within the current rules to maximise your periods of possession when winning.

But, and f**k me i'm sick of trying to get this message across, so please listen. This style of football has been seen many times before. But when the best individual and collective team in the country advocate this method of play for an entire quarter of a match, as a tactic it will spread like wildfire throughout our game. It requires skill to apply, but only a fraction of the skill required to open up anoacked defence. So every wannabe coach in the country will now add it to their "armoury", and instead of us having to endure a couple of minutes of keep ball per match, we will now see default matches comprising almost entirely of keepball.

Football was in a shit place. But on Saturday afternoon it nosedived further.

A rule change isn't an option anymore. It's a necessity.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mayo4Sam14 on July 16, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 04:36:02 PM
Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.
No that's not what I'm proposing.

What I'd like to see is that it's more difficult for a winning team to kill the game.

You might call that "pathetic".

But soccer took drastic steps to prevent this, in the form of removing the backpass and limiting goalkeepers to 5 seconds with the ball.

Basketball took drastic steps in the form of not being able to back past the halfway line, then the shot clock.

NFL has downs and a shotclock to ensure teams advance.

Rugby league's fifth tackle rule ensures regular turnovers.

Rugby union has an inbuilt mechanism to devalue clock killing throigh the danger of penalty kicks conceded in your own half.

Aussie Rules doesn't need so much of a precaution, as the penalty for being caught in possession close to goals is so severe.

All of these are constructs, rules, which have been designed to keep the play moving. All of the above also tweak their rules on a default basis to react to coaches exploiting weaknesses in their rules.

It's called common sense. Expecting that sporting rules should remain untouched over time goes against the concept of human evolution.

And while you do get shite games in every code in every sport, none of these suffers from the malaise, apathy, and downright disenchantment  which is sweeping through Gaelic football.


Pathetic? I do wonder.

Except they didn't really, it's as easy to play short passes around the back there as it is in football. And a lot of soccer teams play the "blanket defense". You can't just outlaw particular tactics for being boring.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 05:28:55 PM
The point you miss is that this is brought about by the negative tactic of teams having a 12 man protection of their D for the entire game. Even losing teams! That is the fundamental problem. The fly should not be forced to make unnecessary trips into the spider's parlour just because the spider couldn't be arsed leaving it.

It is pathetic that a losing team refuses to chase the game unless the ball is brought to them and their negative defensive setup.

But I'm not missing this point HS.

By preventing teams from passing the ball back across their halfway line, it gives the chasing team a great incentive to push up, and shepherd their opponents into their own half. So it would create gaps where none currently exist, if only for a short while.

The only "reward" for pushing up now is teams like Dublin having the option to full blitz you going forwards, or to turn and go back if your team works hard enough to re-assume defensive positions. At which point tanks are emptied, and slaughter becomes inevitable.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:41:13 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam14 on July 16, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 04:36:02 PM
Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.
No that's not what I'm proposing.

What I'd like to see is that it's more difficult for a winning team to kill the game.

You might call that "pathetic".

But soccer took drastic steps to prevent this, in the form of removing the backpass and limiting goalkeepers to 5 seconds with the ball.

Basketball took drastic steps in the form of not being able to back past the halfway line, then the shot clock.

NFL has downs and a shotclock to ensure teams advance.

Rugby league's fifth tackle rule ensures regular turnovers.

Rugby union has an inbuilt mechanism to devalue clock killing throigh the danger of penalty kicks conceded in your own half.

Aussie Rules doesn't need so much of a precaution, as the penalty for being caught in possession close to goals is so severe.

All of these are constructs, rules, which have been designed to keep the play moving. All of the above also tweak their rules on a default basis to react to coaches exploiting weaknesses in their rules.

It's called common sense. Expecting that sporting rules should remain untouched over time goes against the concept of human evolution.

And while you do get shite games in every code in every sport, none of these suffers from the malaise, apathy, and downright disenchantment  which is sweeping through Gaelic football.


Pathetic? I do wonder.

Except they didn't really, it's as easy to play short passes around the back there as it is in football. And a lot of soccer teams play the "blanket defense". You can't just outlaw particular tactics for being boring.

So you don't think soccer became a more entertaining spectacle as a result of these changes?

I mean, who wouldn't want to pay £60 in to watch 90 mins of sport, in which the ball is unchallenged in De gea's hands for 10 minutes. What a day out that would be.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mayo4Sam14 on July 16, 2018, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 05:28:55 PM
The point you miss is that this is brought about by the negative tactic of teams having a 12 man protection of their D for the entire game. Even losing teams! That is the fundamental problem. The fly should not be forced to make unnecessary trips into the spider's parlour just because the spider couldn't be arsed leaving it.

It is pathetic that a losing team refuses to chase the game unless the ball is brought to them and their negative defensive setup.

But I'm not missing this point HS.

By preventing teams from passing the ball back across their halfway line, it gives the chasing team a great incentive to push up, and shepherd their opponents into their own half. So it would create gaps where none currently exist, if only for a short while.

The only "reward" for pushing up now is teams like Dublin having the option to full blitz you going forwards, or to turn and go back if your team works hard enough to re-assume defensive positions. At which point tanks are emptied, and slaughter becomes inevitable.

So you're point is to punish the team with better forwards for having them, and this is going to great exciting attacking games. Why not just skip to the chase and just make Dublin play with 11 men and give the other team a two goal head start.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on July 16, 2018, 06:04:55 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 04:36:02 PM
Wobbler, you really propose that we should be making it easier for teams who don't have the balls (or ability) to come out of their own half to get the ball back by forcing the opposing team to bring the ball to them?
That's pathetic. The onus should not be on the winning team to bring the ball to the losing team, it should be on the losing team to go and get it.

Sports have a vested interest in making the game as exciting as possible, and the top commercial team sports organisations :NFL, NBA, FIFA can't afford to lose excitement or have 1 team dominate, and often legislate for this eg draft system, countdown clock, banning backpass to keeper.

I remember being delighted when Dublin beat Kerry to win the first of this batch of All-Ireland's, but the GAA have created a monster, and tbf Dublin have used the unfair advantages they have very effectively . Dublin are dominant athletically and skill wise but their best way of continuing their winning streak is to get in front and keep ball. At long last , for them, they have managed to crack the best way of ensuring that Within the rules as they stand , they use their physical , structural and financial advantages to the maximum.

Playing rules changes that ensure the attractivess of the game and the result, and disadvantage no team can only be a good thing.
The mark has been a resounding success, the advantage rule less so because it is too referee dependent .
Two simple changes which would have improved yesterday's games as spectacles would be 13-a-side and no back pass in your own half.
I think it was actually sad yesterday to watch potentially the best footballer of this generation, Ciaran Kilkenny, unable to show attacking flair in a conventional forward role, having been conditioned/brainwashed into playing safe keep ball for years.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 06:22:20 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam14 on July 16, 2018, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 05:28:55 PM
The point you miss is that this is brought about by the negative tactic of teams having a 12 man protection of their D for the entire game. Even losing teams! That is the fundamental problem. The fly should not be forced to make unnecessary trips into the spider's parlour just because the spider couldn't be arsed leaving it.

It is pathetic that a losing team refuses to chase the game unless the ball is brought to them and their negative defensive setup.

But I'm not missing this point HS.

By preventing teams from passing the ball back across their halfway line, it gives the chasing team a great incentive to push up, and shepherd their opponents into their own half. So it would create gaps where none currently exist, if only for a short while.

The only "reward" for pushing up now is teams like Dublin having the option to full blitz you going forwards, or to turn and go back if your team works hard enough to re-assume defensive positions. At which point tanks are emptied, and slaughter becomes inevitable.

So you're point is to punish the team with better forwards for having them, and this is going to great exciting attacking games. Why not just skip to the chase and just make Dublin play with 11 men and give the other team a two goal head start.

How does this possibly punish teams with better forwards? Its purpose is to reduce clock killing. How are you reading it another way?

Is it fair on LeBron James that he has to release the ball within 24 seconds, even though he could probably dance around with it for a couple of minutes?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 06:25:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 06:19:04 PM
How can bringing in a rule that benefits blanket defending make the game a better spectacle?
The best forwards in the game are being suffocated and you are trying to bring in a rule whereby backs (and the forwards too) will never have reason to be sucked out of their half.

How oh how are you interpreting it this way?

Ffs, if there is a clear benefit for blanket defences  to commit men forward (which they would have to do in order to shepherd opponents to the halfway line), why would they remain in blanket position?

Genuinely I can't work out how you're interpreting this.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 06:34:41 PM
The team with the ball has a hell of a lot less space to operate in and therefore can be smothered and snuffed out more easily. They have no back door. Defending teams don't have far to come out. They will never get sucked out to chase the ball. They never need to bother tackling in their forward line. Wait til the cross the halfway line. It'll be easier.

Right, hold on.

If applied, why wouldn't defenders leave their own half? If they don't, the opposition could safely play keepball unchallenged for the rest of the match, with absolutely no reason to go forward. They could even bring all 15 of their players back and play 1-yard hand passes to their heart's content.

The onus would be completely on the defending team to get up and set traps. In doing so, they'd leave gaps for the attacking team to play football.

Defending teams are currently not pushing up because it means 80 yard runs in either direction to watch balls being kicked over their heads in both directions. They're piggies in the middle, except the middle is half the size of Mother Earth.

I can't believe this needs explaining.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 06:51:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 06:48:21 PM
I mean as soon as the ball goes over the halfway mark, 15 behind the ball knowing that the attacking team only has half the pitch to play in. That makes it much easier for a packed defence.

Which should encourage quicker and more direct attacks, as a good pass will take out the entire frontline defence every time
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: dublin7 on July 16, 2018, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 06:51:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 06:48:21 PM
I mean as soon as the ball goes over the halfway mark, 15 behind the ball knowing that the attacking team only has half the pitch to play in. That makes it much easier for a packed defence.

Which should encourage quicker and more direct attacks, as a good pass will take out the entire frontline defence every time


Talking rubbish wobbler. Under your rules the defending team sits deep in their own half to allow attacking team to cross the half way line. The attacking team has no space to attack into and when defending side push up they can't go backwards past the half way line. Would be terrible to watch and discourage attacking play
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 07:13:38 PM
Anyhow you're toiling under the misconception that such a rule change only affects (in the recent high profile match) Dublin's attacking play.

Take the scenario that Dublin cross half way and reach the first line of Donegal defence. Dublin have a couple of men holding fort at the halfway line , while Donegal are all back inside the 65. Dublin are dispossessed. Michael Murphy now has two choices, turn back and play backwards, which basically gives Dublin 5-10 seconds to reset in full, or else drive at them.

Within a few seconds, he's over the halfway line. Now he needs support. And more than one man, he needs runners and his runners need runners, or else it's a turnover in open play at the halfway line.

Think this out. Players on both sides have no choice but to commit.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 07:15:37 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 16, 2018, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 06:51:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 06:48:21 PM
I mean as soon as the ball goes over the halfway mark, 15 behind the ball knowing that the attacking team only has half the pitch to play in. That makes it much easier for a packed defence.

Which should encourage quicker and more direct attacks, as a good pass will take out the entire frontline defence every time


Talking rubbish wobbler. Under your rules the defending team sits deep in their own half to allow attacking team to cross the half way line. The attacking team has no space to attack into and when defending side push up they can't go backwards past the half way line. Would be terrible to watch and discourage attacking play

As I keep pointing out, by implementing a line in the sand, and an incentive to cross over, it becomes clear that it's Donegal's issue if they refuse to push up.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: dublin7 on July 16, 2018, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 07:13:38 PM
Anyhow you're toiling under the misconception that such a rule change only affects (in the recent high profile match) Dublin's attacking play.

Take the scenario that Dublin cross half way and reach the first line of Donegal defence. Dublin have a couple of men holding fort at the halfway line , while Donegal are all back inside the 65. Dublin are dispossessed. Michael Murphy now has two choices, turn back and play backwards, which basically gives Dublin 5-10 seconds to reset in full, or else drive at them.

Within a few seconds, he's over the halfway line. Now he needs support. And more than one man, he needs runners and his runners need runners, or else it's a turnover in open play at the halfway line.

Think this out. Players on both sides have no choice but to commit.

What about Dublin who are trying to attack. Can't play the long ball in because Donegal have everyone back. Can't go back past half way so Donegal know they don't have to push up very far. Dublin are one of the few teams in the league who kick pass consistently. This rule would take that option more or less out of the game and lead to games full of handpassing.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 16, 2018, 07:34:44 PM
Is this problem of passing the ball around the front of the blanket defence really such a big issue? As far as I can see only Dublin on a limited number of occasions have done this. It's a relatively new tactic to suck out the blanket defence which I think by the end of the year will have a tactic devised to counteract it. I'd say as we speak, Mickey Harte, Declan Bonner, Kevin Walsh et al are coming up with a plan to carry out if they find themselves 3 points down and with the dubs throwing the ball about in front of them. Give managers time to work this out, the blanket is nearly a busted flush at this stage due to tactics devised to overcome it, as is the short kick out. Let's not change the rules too often.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Stall the Bailer on July 16, 2018, 07:39:19 PM
I asked the same problem earlier and only wobbler replied to say it is almost epidemic in down div 1. I don't see it much of an issue, happens in a few county games every year. A lot of other issues that need addressed before this.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Blue Island on July 16, 2018, 08:57:02 PM
The rules have to change and evolve.

A lot of posters appear to mistake genuine concern for the health of the game for an attack on Dublin, or other superior teams. I would not blame Dublin one bit and the onus was certainly on Donegal to go looking for the ball.

Also, I think there is no doubt players today are fitter and their skill levels are vastly superior to players 25 years ago. It is a common sight today to see a corner back solo the ball 50 yards and score a point, unheard of 25 years ago. From number 1 to 15 all players have to now be comfortable on the ball. Some of the point scoring in the last decade has been outstanding and demonstrative of hours of practice.  The professionalism of the management teams is far more advanced today. Yet for all these advances the game has went backwards as a spectacle.

It is nonsense to say this is jumping on the Brolly/O'Rourke bandwagon. That is dismissing the intelligence of the many growing number of disgruntled viewers who can see for themselves the problems. Even in the higher scoring games, involving scores of the highest caliber, there are still many incidents of this utterly boring phase of hand passing throughout the games. At least back in the day the other team would have to win a battle in midfield before attempting to hand pass the life out of a game.

Genuine football people are really becoming disillusioned and I don't know why people can't see that.

As for a solution, any rule changes would have to be tested in the league. The limit to hand passes would be difficult for the ref and I agree that it would only result in players becoming more adept at short foot passes. The stop clock to limit the amount of time a team has to shoot would be a god send for defensive teams.

The key is to stop the contraction of space by defensively minded teams (basically every teams nowadays) who play with nearly everyone behind the ball when the other team has it. I would suggest  once the other team crosses the halfway mark they are not allowed to pass back. Of course that encourages the attacking team to attack once across the line, but encourages the blanket. I would suggest a stop clock, but in reverse. From the kick out the defensive team has say 25 seconds to get a hand on the ball, otherwise a 45 meter free to their opponents. No more blanket and this may open up the space around the field. I don't think it is beyond the technology we have now. It should not be left to the referee. A simple digital countdown like they have in basketball. That would draw them out and perhaps add to the excitment.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 16, 2018, 09:34:05 PM
Quote from: Blue Island on July 16, 2018, 08:57:02 PM
The rules have to change and evolve.

A lot of posters appear to mistake genuine concern for the health of the game for an attack on Dublin, or other superior teams. I would not blame Dublin one bit and the onus was certainly on Donegal to go looking for the ball.

Also, I think there is no doubt players today are fitter and their skill levels are vastly superior to players 25 years ago. It is a common sight today to see a corner back solo the ball 50 yards and score a point, unheard of 25 years ago. From number 1 to 15 all players have to now be comfortable on the ball. Some of the point scoring in the last decade has been outstanding and demonstrative of hours of practice.  The professionalism of the management teams is far more advanced today. Yet for all these advances the game has went backwards as a spectacle.

It is nonsense to say this is jumping on the Brolly/O'Rourke bandwagon. That is dismissing the intelligence of the many growing number of disgruntled viewers who can see for themselves the problems. Even in the higher scoring games, involving scores of the highest caliber, there are still many incidents of this utterly boring phase of hand passing throughout the games. At least back in the day the other team would have to win a battle in midfield before attempting to hand pass the life out of a game.

Genuine football people are really becoming disillusioned and I don't know why people can't see that.

As for a solution, any rule changes would have to be tested in the league. The limit to hand passes would be difficult for the ref and I agree that it would only result in players becoming more adept at short foot passes. The stop clock to limit the amount of time a team has to shoot would be a god send for defensive teams.

The key is to stop the contraction of space by defensively minded teams (basically every teams nowadays) who play with nearly everyone behind the ball when the other team has it. I would suggest  once the other team crosses the halfway mark they are not allowed to pass back. Of course that encourages the attacking team to attack once across the line, but encourages the blanket. I would suggest a stop clock, but in reverse. From the kick out the defensive team has say 25 seconds to get a hand on the ball, otherwise a 45 meter free to their opponents. No more blanket and this may open up the space around the field. I don't think it is beyond the technology we have now. It should not be left to the referee. A simple digital countdown like they have in basketball. That would draw them out and perhaps add to the excitment.

Are you being serious here?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 16, 2018, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 09:06:36 PM
25 seconds of hand passing around your back line and you get a 50?

Christ!

While I don't particularly like the idea, the concept he has come up with is one designed to deliberately force everyone back into the original man-on-man sport that was Gaelic football. It's lateral thinking and is actually quite clever.

I'm not sure if anyone who decries Donegal's blanket defence should really disagree with it tbh!

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Blue Island on July 16, 2018, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 09:06:36 PM
25 seconds of hand passing around your back line and you get a 50?

Christ!

25 seconds of hand passing around your back line might seem like a piece of piss now, given the way the game is played. But it would be a lot more difficult if the the other team were forced to push up. Also, it does not necessarily have to be 25 seconds, it could be longer. But the point remains, a lot of people are serious that a discussion need to take place regarding a rule change, or football will start hemorrhaging support.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: lfdown2 on July 16, 2018, 10:51:13 PM
In my opinion what's wrong is the competition rules, not the games rules. The reason we had so many shit games before the 'super 8s' was because too many of those games had 2 teams at differing levels, and the reason the first week of the 'super 8s' were so bad is because it is not a knock out, in relation to Donegal Dublin, there is no way Donegal would have allowed Dublin play keep ball for 15 min if a defer meant their summer was over, they would have been forced to come out and take a man each, if they have designs on winning an AI (or if anyone has for that matter) they'd want to be fit enough to force a turn over. The next 2 weeks I would anticipate more competitive fare.

Failing that once the the coverage right come up again as available to the wireless only.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Blue Island on July 16, 2018, 11:56:39 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 16, 2018, 10:22:03 PM
Sorry but that's nonsense. You are proposing that a team get a free in for doing nothing but keeping possession! This has gone full circle.

Totally ludicrous.

I am not suggesting that there would be a free for any given 25 second period of possession. The period would only start from the kick out and end when the half way line is breached, or the ball is touched by the opposition. You probably would not even notice it after a while in a game. The opposition would have to push up on the kick out and the reality is the kick out would probably have to go longer more often. Any short kick outs would result in serious press from the opposition.

I did suggest 25 seconds, but if that is perhaps too short a time frame it could be lengthened. I would imagine it could be lengthened to such a time frame that would result in a free of this nature being given relatively rarely, but enough of deterrent for teams getting back in defence and constricting the space. It's this lack of space in the forward line for the attacking team which is ruining the nature of the game.

Gone are the days of the one to one battles around the pitch. Football used to be superior to soccer, because even when scores were not happening, big shoulders out the field, a leaping full forward rising to catch the ball, or a corner forward going toe to toe with a corner back used to get the crowd roaring. There were more big moments to appreciate in a match. I don't blame the managers and players for the type of football played today. It's the best way to play under the present rules, but this disillusionment that is spreading is not some conspiracy created by Brolly etc.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on July 17, 2018, 12:17:20 AM
Passing the ball around ad nasuem is a huge problem for the game, especially to run down the clock, so I'd have to disagree with you there hardstation.

I understand that all law changes carry the guarantee of unintended consequences but for me a shot clock would probably be the best method of opening up the game. I know you say that the defensive team only have to defend for 1 minute and be rewarded with a free but when they are given possession they become the offensive team and now have to work a score in 60 seconds (or 30, 45 seconds, whichever seems most natural). So by playing defensive they string themselves up offensively. For me the most likely outcome is that managers realise possession isn't paramount but creating good scoring opportunities and having top class finishers to take them is. Hence they'd revert to more traditional styles to ensure enough quality attackers are on the pitch and high enough up to create and score points/goals.

The no back-pass behind half-way is a dogshit suggestion as it simply moves the blanket exclusion zone from the 45m to the halfway line. Teams currently look to pressure players and swallow them up around the D because there they can have them completely surrounded by defenders. A no- back pass rule would simply allow teams to use the halfway line as a impenetrable line of defenders, simply wait for a lad to carry the ball over halfway and smother his forward options, driving him back to a place where he has no options but to foul the ball. There's a reason players recycle possession when an attack ends up in a corner, they've run out of road and are surrounded on 2 sides by the endline and on one side by the defending team. I can't believe that cutting off the offensive teams last option is seen as a incentive for attacking play.

Lastly and most importantly you're all missing the key point by saying Donegal should have just pushed up, went man-to-man and won the ball back off Dublin. That isn't possible unless you send a man up to man-mark Cluxton. Going man to man would mean you'd have 2 midfielders between the 45's and 6 forwards trying to dispossess 6 backs and a goal-keeper. With the ball skill and fitness of today's top footballers, 7 players will keep the ball off 6 players in an area 90m by 45m endlessly, once the initial attempts to dispossess fail your inside forwards tire and the hope of a turnover is lost.

Donegal had too options the last day, hope Dublin attacked and they got a turnover or it went wide or truly go man to man by pushing a defender up on Cluxton, leaving Dublin a free forward up top. Donegal's options were basically do what they were doing or concede a score.

Agreed with the doubters that a ref could keep a score clock by himself whilst still completing all his other duties so that likely downs it as a suggestion for congress unfortunately. I just don't see any other workable suggestions out there that don't fundamentally alter the game as we know it.

Does anyone here honestly believe the game hasn't decreased as a spectacle in the last 10 years? I thought we'd reached the nadir last year as Tyrone and Donegal were much more offensive in the league this year and a supposed golden generation of Kerry forwards were on the cusp of their senior careers. However the round of super 8 games seen the team with the better blanket defence progress and those who could hold possession for the longest. Since Dublin took the lessons of '14 and started playing Jimmyball they've been unstoppable and it looks set to continue for a long time.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
Just seeing this thread now and haven't read beyond the first page but...

In basketball you're not allowed to pass the ball back across the halfway line once you've crossed it. Seems to work well and is easily enforced.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 08:34:44 AM
Holding the ball is a skill. Go and watch any club team trying to do. What happens is some lad not comfortable on the ball gets it. He panics and either kicks it away or is dispossessed. Weirdly, I'll admit, I kind of admire Dublin and how comfortable everyone of them are on the ball and how they don't panic. I don't think there's another county team that can do it. Monaghan couldn't do it against Fermanagh this year.

Now realistic changes that would make a huge difference are, 13 a side, 80 min games and only 3 or 4 subs. That would create tired legs and the game would really open up in the last 20 mins. Should cut the size of inter county panels and save CB's money and should also level the playing field across the game.

Not a shot clock or rule limiting hand passing in sight.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: TabClear on July 17, 2018, 09:58:55 AM
Have only read through a couple of pages of this so apologies if I am repeating something.  I was thinking a netball-esque approach with zones might encourage less packed defences. For example,Fulle Forward/Full Back line are not allowed outside of the 45, HB/HF cannot pass the opposing 45 etc. I can see obvious issues with certain situations e.g  quick counter attacks, balls breaking over a line etc etc but you might be able to get round that with certain refinements. It would mean that there is more space in the inside forward line and a greater incentive to deliver the ball quickly into it.

EDIT: I personally dont have an issue with the current rules, unfortunately I just think that one team is so far ahead of the others at the minute I think people are understandable tryig to level the playing field. I dont necessarily think it would be the answer but it might be an interesting experiment.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on July 17, 2018, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 17, 2018, 09:02:22 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 17, 2018, 12:17:20 AM
Passing the ball around ad nasuem is a huge problem for the game, especially to run down the clock, so I'd have to disagree with you there hardstation.

I understand that all law changes carry the guarantee of unintended consequences but for me a shot clock would probably be the best method of opening up the game. I know you say that the defensive team only have to defend for 1 minute and be rewarded with a free but when they are given possession they become the offensive team and now have to work a score in 60 seconds (or 30, 45 seconds, whichever seems most natural). So by playing defensive they string themselves up offensively. For me the most likely outcome is that managers realise possession isn't paramount but creating good scoring opportunities and having top class finishers to take them is. Hence they'd revert to more traditional styles to ensure enough quality attackers are on the pitch and high enough up to create and score points/goals.

The no back-pass behind half-way is a dogshit suggestion as it simply moves the blanket exclusion zone from the 45m to the halfway line. Teams currently look to pressure players and swallow them up around the D because there they can have them completely surrounded by defenders. A no- back pass rule would simply allow teams to use the halfway line as a impenetrable line of defenders, simply wait for a lad to carry the ball over halfway and smother his forward options, driving him back to a place where he has no options but to foul the ball. There's a reason players recycle possession when an attack ends up in a corner, they've run out of road and are surrounded on 2 sides by the endline and on one side by the defending team. I can't believe that cutting off the offensive teams last option is seen as a incentive for attacking play.

Lastly and most importantly you're all missing the key point by saying Donegal should have just pushed up, went man-to-man and won the ball back off Dublin. That isn't possible unless you send a man up to man-mark Cluxton. Going man to man would mean you'd have 2 midfielders between the 45's and 6 forwards trying to dispossess 6 backs and a goal-keeper. With the ball skill and fitness of today's top footballers, 7 players will keep the ball off 6 players in an area 90m by 45m endlessly, once the initial attempts to dispossess fail your inside forwards tire and the hope of a turnover is lost.

Donegal had too options the last day, hope Dublin attacked and they got a turnover or it went wide or truly go man to man by pushing a defender up on Cluxton, leaving Dublin a free forward up top. Donegal's options were basically do what they were doing or concede a score.

Agreed with the doubters that a ref could keep a score clock by himself whilst still completing all his other duties so that likely downs it as a suggestion for congress unfortunately. I just don't see any other workable suggestions out there that don't fundamentally alter the game as we know it.

Does anyone here honestly believe the game hasn't decreased as a spectacle in the last 10 years? I thought we'd reached the nadir last year as Tyrone and Donegal were much more offensive in the league this year and a supposed golden generation of Kerry forwards were on the cusp of their senior careers. However the round of super 8 games seen the team with the better blanket defence progress and those who could hold possession for the longest. Since Dublin took the lessons of '14 and started playing Jimmyball they've been unstoppable and it looks set to continue for a long time.
I'm not sure you've disagreed with me at all. I haven't discussed the shot clock. Blue Island wants the opposite of a shot clock. A good tackle clock which would encourage teams to hold on to the ball. You agree entirely with me about wobbler's suggestion. Although your suggestion that pushing up would need to have someone marking the goalkeeper is a bit off IMO.

No-one is  going to push up and mark the keeper is my point. It will never happen. So in truth once a top 5 team decide to play keep ball, 9 times out of 10 they'll do it for as long as they please due to numerical advantage. Saying "push up and win it back" is the same tired ould bullshit like "throw the shackles off, have a go, kick all your points from distance". Few people honestly appreciate the suffocating, depressing presence of blanket defences. Its the most complete, game altering tactic ever devised in the GAA history, a notable achievement in itself but it's just gone too far. I thought the game would evolve out of this period but now I'm not so sure. More teams are playing blanket defences and keep ball tactics and are all at the top table. Those that refuse to or haven't the managers to reach them it are descending into a mire, proud football counties like down, Armagh, cork, meath and Kildare are being left behind.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on July 17, 2018, 10:09:31 AM
I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 11:13:29 AM
Quote from: tippabu on July 17, 2018, 10:09:31 AM
I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it

You'll never hear me disagree with any of that.

But doesn't mean I want to watch it. And if me, a "proper" GAA man is being turned away, then those who are less inclined towards the game have already bolted.

It's in everyone's interests for the rules to be adapted to minimise the opportunity for the anti-spectacle that is ball-keeping.

Donwe have to wait for four-figure championship crowds before everyone agrees? Or can we move forward on it now?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:15:26 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
Just seeing this thread now and haven't read beyond the first page but...

In basketball you're not allowed to pass the ball back across the halfway line once you've crossed it. Seems to work well and is easily enforced.

Hard to think of a rule that would be easier to enforce.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on July 17, 2018, 11:46:46 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 17, 2018, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 11:13:29 AM
Quote from: tippabu on July 17, 2018, 10:09:31 AM
I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it

You'll never hear me disagree with any of that.

But doesn't mean I want to watch it. And if me, a "proper" GAA man is being turned away, then those who are less inclined towards the game have already bolted.

It's in everyone's interests for the rules to be adapted to minimise the opportunity for the anti-spectacle that is ball-keeping.

Donwe have to wait for four-figure championship crowds before everyone agrees? Or can we move forward on it now?
You need to come up with a rule change that is going to make it a better spectacle though. Minimising the opportunity for ball keeping while optimising the effectiveness of blanket defending does not do that. You are dealing with one problem but making another problem (for me, the fundamental problem) worse.

Any ideas on what that rule change could be though?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: rosnarun on July 17, 2018, 11:59:39 AM
the reason change is so difficult in the GAA is easily seen on these pages . 50 poster 50 different obvious ideas each masser than the next.
any solution has to be easily enforced  or we will end up with another Black card situation where the referee forgets about it for 90% and then gives on for something innocuous
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: shark on July 17, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

I would think that too if I was from Meath.

A couple of weekends ago Eir Sport (I think) showed a re-run of the 1992 Munster Final. I had nostalgic memories of this game, as was on holidays in Clare at the time, and remember the celebrations well. I had never seen the game since, but it was absolutely chronic. The skill level was abysmal, with the notable exception of Maurice Fitzgerald. The only tactic for both sides was to kick the ball as long and as hard as they could in the general direction of their opponents goals.

We have different game now, for a number of reasons. It is not perfect, but it has been much worse in the past.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on July 17, 2018, 12:18:19 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on July 17, 2018, 11:59:39 AM
the reason change is so difficult in the GAA is easily seen on these pages . 50 poster 50 different obvious ideas each masser than the next.
any solution has to be easily enforced  or we will end up with another Black card situation where the referee forgets about it for 90% and then gives on for something innocuous

I dont think there is a solution or at least shouldnt be....its up the the team on the receiving end to push up, try and get a turnover and pressure them into a mistake. The likes of a dublin are more than able to kill you when you push up though and tag on extra scores. Its a very legitimate tactic they are using and is horrible to watch but is it any worse than a team 5/6 points down and allowing the team playing the ball around by keeping 13/14 players in their own half?

Im not in favour of any rules to change this....if you brought in a hand pass limit of say 5 it would kill the game for me....you have teams making progress up the pitch get to their handpass limit and turn and kick the ball back 30 yards and start over if there was no pass on, then you combat that with not kicking it back into your own half which will give a huge advantage to teams who throw 15 behind the ball and give no space, combat that by a team must keep a certain amount of players in oppositions half that ruins alot of the competitive edge of the likes of a carlow or fermangh. Leave it as it is
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

...and more manly.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 12:29:45 PM
Quote from: shark on July 17, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

I would think that too if I was from Meath.

A couple of weekends ago Eir Sport (I think) showed a re-run of the 1992 Munster Final. I had nostalgic memories of this game, as was on holidays in Clare at the time, and remember the celebrations well. I had never seen the game since, but it was absolutely chronic. The skill level was abysmal, with the notable exception of Maurice Fitzgerald. The only tactic for both sides was to kick the ball as long and as hard as they could in the general direction of their opponents goals.

We have different game now, for a number of reasons. It is not perfect, but it has been much worse in the past.

I said mid-nineties to mid-noughties, so Galway, Kerry and Tyrone were as (or more) successful in that era.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on July 17, 2018, 12:33:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 11:13:29 AM
Quote from: tippabu on July 17, 2018, 10:09:31 AM
I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it

You'll never hear me disagree with any of that.

But doesn't mean I want to watch it. And if me, a "proper" GAA man is being turned away, then those who are less inclined towards the game have already bolted.

It's in everyone's interests for the rules to be adapted to minimise the opportunity for the anti-spectacle that is ball-keeping.

Donwe have to wait for four-figure championship crowds before everyone agrees? Or can we move forward on it now?
It's bizarre that you think ball keeping is easy! And that you want to punish the team that keep the ball rather than the team who refuse to try and get it back.

How do you think Donegal would have got on had they been 4 points up and tried to play keep-ball for the last 10 minutes?

Dublin would have been committing everything to regaining possession. Yes, that would have left them open to a counter attack, but that's football! What they wouldn't have done is left 12 men back and hope that Donegal are really stupid and would kick it into a forward who's double marked.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: weareros on July 17, 2018, 12:33:55 PM
What I would do is give one team in all situations home advantage, even if just toss of coin. I was there at Portlaoise and between 4 counties you had a 27k capacity stadium half full for important games. Croke Park last Saturday was soulless. At least with one team having home advantage it should help ensure an atmosphere. It seems only the die hards will travel long distance to neutral venues.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: NAG1 on July 17, 2018, 12:37:57 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

Hard to argue with this and the questions have to be asked what has changed in the interim period.

I would argue the professionalisation of coaching/ managing teams has lead to a fear of losing rather than an excitement to go and play to win. If I as a manager am getting paid then it is my job to win at all cost to keep my job and keep the money coming in. This has filtered down to the club scene in almost every county if not all. We have these mercenaries taking clubs for the pound/euro with no connection to them, imposing systems of play designed not too lose.

Obviously scale that up and the counties with the biggest budgets/ playing populations are always going to go away form the rest. But at the end of the day these are club players and they are being polluted by these 'not to lose' coaches before they get the length of the county squad so the mentality is already there.

Of course not one wants to go out and lose none of the teams of the past did, but there was also that pride in actually going to win, going to beat your direct opponent and giving it everything possible on the day. Pride in being a winner rather than a non-loser.

Hard to see a reverse of this blight on a great game (and thats from a hurling person).
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: shark on July 17, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

I would think that too if I was from Meath.

A couple of weekends ago Eir Sport (I think) showed a re-run of the 1992 Munster Final. I had nostalgic memories of this game, as was on holidays in Clare at the time, and remember the celebrations well. I had never seen the game since, but it was absolutely chronic. The skill level was abysmal, with the notable exception of Maurice Fitzgerald. The only tactic for both sides was to kick the ball as long and as hard as they could in the general direction of their opponents goals.

We have different game now, for a number of reasons. It is not perfect, but it has been much worse in the past.

The vast majority of games of the time were like that.

There are some amount of turkeys of games from the 1990s that have either been forgotten about or dressed up as classics when they were anything but.

The standard of football in the four Dublin-Meath games of 1991, for instance, was dreadful. Those teams would lose by a minimum of 20 points to the top teams of today, probably 30.

Excitement and quality are two very different things.

I think a lot of people have forgotten the many turkeys of matches from the 1990s and 2000s.

All this guff about the standard of Gaelic football and how the game needs utterly ridiculous, unworkable rule changes (every rule change suggested here is such and then some) is Trump/Brexit-esque.

Unfocussed, irrational anger, head in the sand, heavy on rhetoric, low on detail, no solutions, no idea of even what the supposed "problems" are.
















Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
Sid, we're all playing and watching the game long enough.
You can tell me things have never been better than they are now till the cows come home, all I know is that when the SKY deal came in I was genuinely angry I was going to miss some televised games and now I find I don't really care anymore.
Sure what am I missing?
Maybe the solution is to take big games away from Croke Park and we'll see if that has a tangible effect over the next couple of weekends.
It's a faint hope, but a hope nonetheless.
Otherwise, I find myself gradually morphing into 'a hurling fan myself'.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:19:16 PM
What great games were there in the 1990s?

I mean genuinely great games?

Off the top of my head, I can think of:
The second half of the 1991 Down v Meath All-Ireland final - the first half was dreadful
1994 Derry v Down
1997 Meath v Kildare
Maybe the last 10 minutes of the fourth Dublin-Meath game in 1991
Maybe Dublin-Derry 1993

And that's about it.

Sure there were plenty of good, competitive, exciting games.

And there were tons of turkeys, far too numerous to mention.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on July 17, 2018, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:19:16 PM
What great games were there in the 1990s?

I mean genuinely great games?

Off the top of my head, I can think of:
The second half of the 1991 Down v Meath All-Ireland final - the first half was dreadful
1994 Derry v Down
1997 Meath v Kildare
Maybe the last 10 minutes of the fourth Dublin-Meath game in 1991
Maybe Dublin-Derry 1993

And that's about it.

Sure there were plenty of good, competitive, exciting games.

And there were tons of turkeys, far too numerous to mention.

Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
Sid, we're all playing and watching the game long enough.
You can tell me things have never been better than they are now till the cows come home, all I know is that when the SKY deal came in I was genuinely angry I was going to miss some televised games and now I find I don't really care anymore.
Sure what am I missing?
Maybe the solution is to take big games away from Croke Park and we'll see if that has a tangible effect over the next couple of weekends.
It's a faint hope, but a hope nonetheless.
Otherwise, I find myself gradually morphing into 'a hurling fan myself'.


There were fewer turkeys on TV back in the day.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
Sid, we're all playing and watching the game long enough.
You can tell me things have never been better than they are now till the cows come home, all I know is that when the SKY deal came in I was genuinely angry I was going to miss some televised games and now I find I don't really care anymore.
Sure what am I missing?
Maybe the solution is to take big games away from Croke Park and we'll see if that has a tangible effect over the next couple of weekends.
It's a faint hope, but a hope nonetheless.
Otherwise, I find myself gradually morphing into 'a hurling fan myself'.
Classic Trump/Brexit thinking.

You don't know what you're moaning about, but you'll moan about "it" anyway, whatever "it" is.

Venues and TV channels have nothing to do with the standard of Gaelic football or the rules of the sport.

I do wonder how some people ever survived in the supposed 1990s "golden era". Before 1996 there wasn't even anything in the way of proper live television coverage of the championships.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 17, 2018, 01:34:58 PM
There were less bad games years ago because there were less games on TV. Also games then meant more because lose and you're out. There has being some great games this year in the back door because they are knock out. The super 8s last week are not do or die and maybe one reason why Donegal didn't push up because they were thinking of score difference. Mayo games in recent years have being top class in terms of entertainment because they were shit or bust.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 17, 2018, 01:34:58 PM
There were less bad games years ago because there were less games on TV. Also games then meant more because lose and you're out. There has being some great games this year in the back door because they are knock out. The super 8s last week are not do or die and maybe one reason why Donegal didn't push up because they were thinking of score difference. Mayo games in recent years have being top class in terms of entertainment because they were shit or bust.
We routinely get excellent, exciting games in the league.

The provincial hurling championships were run on a round robin basis this year and we got thrillers each week.

The format does not determine whether a game will be exciting or not.

People say Donegal did not push up on Dublin because of scoring difference, but the group is unlikely to come down to scoring difference, and even as it was, Donegal were 22 points behind Tyrone on scoring difference, a gap which will be almost impossible to close.

Tyrone trailed Mayo by a point with very little time left in the All-Ireland quarter-final two years ago and didn't push up, just like Donegal. That was a knock out game.

The problem with both Tyrone in that game and Donegal on Saturday was not the format in either case, it was shit tactics on those teams' parts in not trying to get the ball back.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 17, 2018, 12:37:57 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

Hard to argue with this and the questions have to be asked what has changed in the interim period.

I would argue the professionalisation of coaching/ managing teams has lead to a fear of losing rather than an excitement to go and play to win. If I as a manager am getting paid then it is my job to win at all cost to keep my job and keep the money coming in. This has filtered down to the club scene in almost every county if not all. We have these mercenaries taking clubs for the pound/euro with no connection to them, imposing systems of play designed not too lose.

Obviously scale that up and the counties with the biggest budgets/ playing populations are always going to go away form the rest. But at the end of the day these are club players and they are being polluted by these 'not to lose' coaches before they get the length of the county squad so the mentality is already there.

Of course not one wants to go out and lose none of the teams of the past did, but there was also that pride in actually going to win, going to beat your direct opponent and giving it everything possible on the day. Pride in being a winner rather than a non-loser.

Hard to see a reverse of this blight on a great game (and thats from a hurling person).

This is peak Brolly here. Go out to win rather than going out be a non loser? What in the name of God does this mean? Surely every team goes out to win AND be a non loser?

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Itchy on July 17, 2018, 01:52:26 PM
Quote from: shark on July 17, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 16, 2018, 02:55:19 AM
I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.
People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

I would think that too if I was from Meath.

A couple of weekends ago Eir Sport (I think) showed a re-run of the 1992 Munster Final. I had nostalgic memories of this game, as was on holidays in Clare at the time, and remember the celebrations well. I had never seen the game since, but it was absolutely chronic. The skill level was abysmal, with the notable exception of Maurice Fitzgerald. The only tactic for both sides was to kick the ball as long and as hard as they could in the general direction of their opponents goals.

We have different game now, for a number of reasons. It is not perfect, but it has been much worse in the past.

Just because it is better than in the past it does not mean it shouldnt be tweaked. I was at two of those games listed as "competitive" and they were absolute shite and boring. With two very small attendances. Any small change than can make the game more offensive and exciting should be considered. Other sports do it all the time so why not?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
Sid, we're all playing and watching the game long enough.
You can tell me things have never been better than they are now till the cows come home, all I know is that when the SKY deal came in I was genuinely angry I was going to miss some televised games and now I find I don't really care anymore.
Sure what am I missing?
Maybe the solution is to take big games away from Croke Park and we'll see if that has a tangible effect over the next couple of weekends.
It's a faint hope, but a hope nonetheless.
Otherwise, I find myself gradually morphing into 'a hurling fan myself'.
Classic Trump/Brexit thinking.

You don't know what you're moaning about, but you'll moan about "it" anyway, whatever "it" is.

Venues and TV channels have nothing to do with the standard of Gaelic football or the rules of the sport.

I do wonder how some people ever survived in the supposed 1990s "golden era". Before 1996 there wasn't even anything in the way of proper live television coverage of the championships.

Yeah, because this is literally the first time we have discussed this issue on gaaboard.
I've said nothing about this specific issue on multiple occasions in recent years.
Wind your neck in a small bit.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 02:19:01 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 01:30:00 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 17, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
Sid, we're all playing and watching the game long enough.
You can tell me things have never been better than they are now till the cows come home, all I know is that when the SKY deal came in I was genuinely angry I was going to miss some televised games and now I find I don't really care anymore.
Sure what am I missing?
Maybe the solution is to take big games away from Croke Park and we'll see if that has a tangible effect over the next couple of weekends.
It's a faint hope, but a hope nonetheless.
Otherwise, I find myself gradually morphing into 'a hurling fan myself'.
Classic Trump/Brexit thinking.

You don't know what you're moaning about, but you'll moan about "it" anyway, whatever "it" is.

Venues and TV channels have nothing to do with the standard of Gaelic football or the rules of the sport.

I do wonder how some people ever survived in the supposed 1990s "golden era". Before 1996 there wasn't even anything in the way of proper live television coverage of the championships.

Yeah, because this is literally the first time we have discussed this issue on gaaboard.
I've said nothing about this specific issue on multiple occasions in recent years.
Wind your neck in a small bit.

This thread is about the rules of the game.

There is nothing wrong with the rules of the game or how the sport of Gaelic football is being played.

Under the current rules of Gaelic football, we are getting classic games such as the Dublin v Mayo final, the two Mayo-Kerry semi-finals, Tyrone v Monaghan this year.

Every single suggestion of a rule change here is unworkable, unnecessary and has ignored the law of unintended consequences, ie straight out of the Trump/Brexit-style playbook.

Your complaints seem to amount to a television deal you don't like and the venues of certain games. These things have nothing to do with the rules or the standard of the game.

As Ger Loughnane once told Eamon Cregan, this amounts to little more than a whinge.



Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 02:31:58 PM
So by the grace of God we've ended up with the perfect game, the only in the world that never needs its rules adapted as humans get quicker, bigger, stronger, smarter.

Well done us. Quite the accomplishment when you think about it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:37:52 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 02:31:58 PM
So by the grace of God we've ended up with the perfect game, the only in the world that never needs its rules adapted as humans get quicker, bigger, stronger, smarter.

Well done us. Quite the accomplishment when you think about it.

Of course not. But you're looking to change something because another team is better than the rest. So by that reckoning FIFA should outlaw 5 foot passes in a row because Juventus keep winning Serie A. That's what you are looking to do.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 02:39:21 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 02:31:58 PM
So by the grace of God we've ended up with the perfect game, the only in the world that never needs its rules adapted as humans get quicker, bigger, stronger, smarter.

Apparently one set of humans can't possibly be expected to be quick enough, big enough, strong enough or smart enough to get a football back off another set of humans.

At least if we listen to you!

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:07:05 PM
I think we should just bite the bullet and invent a new game that consists entirely of making rules to counteract any attempt at tactical innovation. Once the game starts the opposition have 5 rule changes that they can make in each half to stop the opposition getting any sort of advantage. Every rule change is then unilaterally adopted nationally for the next series of games. I think that should keep most people happy. Ultimately, we should end up with a game whereby one player has 1.25 seconds on a stop watch to kick the ball as high as he can, if the ball lands within 65 metres of the kicker his team loses the game. Game over nice and quickly so we can all get back home to watch the hurling, which ironically doesn't appear to have any specific rules.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on July 17, 2018, 03:09:17 PM
Just make the ball lighter/smaller so that it can be kicked over the bar from 65metres.

Problems solved!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: highorlow on July 17, 2018, 03:26:33 PM
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/afl-2015-we-run-the-rule-over-the-various-rule-changes-since-1990/news-story/d1d79e8ee7f4aa6033f94557a8a84dbb

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on July 17, 2018, 03:29:15 PM
The 2 rugby codes are possession games but have a tackle on the man who has to release the ball in Union or gets 5 plays in League.
Gaelic was a catch and kick game which has turned totally into a possession game but tackle rules never changed.
Exasperated by allowing ball carrier abuse the 4 steps rule and the ball carrier can assault would be tacklers without sanction.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:34:10 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:07:05 PM
I think we should just bite the bullet and invent a new game that consists entirely of making rules to counteract any attempt at tactical innovation. Once the game starts the opposition have 5 rule changes that they can make in each half to stop the opposition getting any sort of advantage. Every rule change is then unilaterally adopted nationally for the next series of games. I think that should keep most people happy. Ultimately, we should end up with a game whereby one player has 1.25 seconds on a stop watch to kick the ball as high as he can, if the ball lands within 65 metres of the kicker his team loses the game. Game over nice and quickly so we can all get back home to watch the hurling, which ironically doesn't appear to have any specific rules.
Dr Eamonn O'Sullivan, commonly referred to as one of the great "thinkers" of the game, was very particular that each player should have a zone which they should not stray out of.

So, why not make this official and bring in 15 lined zones within which each player must stay at all times?

That would bring back the traditional catch and kick and game and make sure of 14 genuine one on one contests.

It would also make the game like netball, which I know is what we all want.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?

values aren't written... is like fair play etc. Gaelic football used to be about attacking, flair, having a go... now it's a huge game of chess and you're welcome to it 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?

values aren't written... is like fair play etc. Gaelic football users to be about attacking, flair, having a go... now it's a huge game of chess and you're welcome to it
We know what fair play is. What fair play is and what it isn't is very much written down.

If so called "values" aren't written down, they don't exist.

They aren't written down, so they don't exist.

There is no such a thing as "the values of the game".

If Gaelic football used to be about "attacking, flair, having a go", etc., why were the average scores 20 years ago so much lower than they are now?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: yellowcard on July 17, 2018, 03:55:09 PM
Those who promote the virtues of modern gaelic football are mostly those who have some skin in the game.

Namely coaches who are spreading their wisdom and implementing their tactical masterplan's. It is an ego trip for a lot of these coaches who try to complicate the game as it makes them appear smarter than the casual fan.

The fitness levels and mobility of the current day player is unprecedented but as a spectator sport it has worsened considerably since Jim McGuinness began a downward spiral in 2011.     
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?

values aren't written... is like fair play etc. Gaelic football users to be about attacking, flair, having a go... now it's a huge game of chess and you're welcome to it
We know what fair play is. What fair play is and what it isn't is very much written down.

If so called "values" aren't written down, they don't exist.

They aren't written down, so they don't exist.

There is no such a thing as "the values of the game".

If Gaelic football used to be about "attacking, flair, having a go", etc., why were the average scores 20 years ago so much lower than they are now?

The game was f**king horrible in the 70's and 80's. The sooner we get back to this the better, if just so we can close this thread.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?

values aren't written... is like fair play etc. Gaelic football users to be about attacking, flair, having a go... now it's a huge game of chess and you're welcome to it
We know what fair play is. What fair play is and what it isn't is very much written down.

If so called "values" aren't written down, they don't exist.

They aren't written down, so they don't exist.

There is no such a thing as "the values of the game".

If Gaelic football used to be about "attacking, flair, having a go", etc., why were the average scores 20 years ago so much lower than they are now?

much of that to do with how unequal teams are. it was never a perfect world but I find county football for the most part unwatchable now. is very very occasional entertaining game but they are very few and far between. Probably accounts for falling numbers at games.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 04:03:52 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?

values aren't written... is like fair play etc. Gaelic football users to be about attacking, flair, having a go... now it's a huge game of chess and you're welcome to it
We know what fair play is. What fair play is and what it isn't is very much written down.

If so called "values" aren't written down, they don't exist.

They aren't written down, so they don't exist.

There is no such a thing as "the values of the game".

If Gaelic football used to be about "attacking, flair, having a go", etc., why were the average scores 20 years ago so much lower than they are now?

The game was f**king horrible in the 70's and 80's. The sooner we get back to this the better, if just so we can close this thread.

who mentioned the 70s and 80s? in the noughties there were great games involving Dublin, Tyrone, Armagh, Mayo, Kerry even Sligio... it's brutal now
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 03:37:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 03:28:17 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Those advocating for a rule change on this issue are simply saying the big boys have taken our ball and they won't give it back. It's yapping at a professional level.

Now there are other issues and some people are getting confused between a good team keeping the ball off another team and Gaelic football as a spectacle in general. Venue's, home advantage etc are all things that can be sorted out relatively easily, but to want to change the entire fabric of the game because one team is better than another is complete and utter madness. And some of the "proposals" coming from people on this thread are absolutely ridiculous. Shot clocks, limiting hand passes, not crossing back over half way and a combination of some or all of those. Idea's written on the bag of a fag packet and frankly that's where they should remain.

McGuinness and Harte have ruined the game, so be it, there are other sports to watch and club football is for the most part ok despite attempts by some 'expert' coaches to ape that rubbish.

Yes it's all McGuinness and Harte's fault. Even though your issue is with Dublin keeping the ball.

yeah was awful to see Dubs go to that level as well as they usually hold true to the values of the game.
What are the "values of the game"?

Where are these "values of the game" written down?

Any chance of a link to them?

values aren't written... is like fair play etc. Gaelic football users to be about attacking, flair, having a go... now it's a huge game of chess and you're welcome to it
We know what fair play is. What fair play is and what it isn't is very much written down.

If so called "values" aren't written down, they don't exist.

They aren't written down, so they don't exist.

There is no such a thing as "the values of the game".

If Gaelic football used to be about "attacking, flair, having a go", etc., why were the average scores 20 years ago so much lower than they are now?

much of that to do with how unequal teams are. it was never a perfect world but I find county football for the most part unwatchable now. is very very occasional entertaining game but they are very few and far between. Probably accounts for falling numbers at games.

Is it?

Roscommon v Armagh, for instance, was a brilliantly contested game all through and could have gone either way.

It finished 2-22 to 1-19.

Kildare v Mayo was similar, it finished 0-21 to 0-19.

Monaghan v Tyrone fnished 1-18 to 1-16.

Did both teams in all these games "have a go"?

Scores like that are far from uncommon nowadays, they're more the norm, but were unheard of 20 years ago - they just didn't happen.

Club football is regularly, and bizarrely said on this forum to be "better to watch" than county football.

Yet televised club football games are, more often that not, dreadful.

Has anybody watched any of the last four All-Ireland club finals? Each and every one was dreadful.

Did anybody see last year's Dublin SFC final?

Inter-county football is miles better, and it's miles better to watch too.








Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.


How do you explain hurling's evolution into a possession game, given that it didn't introduce taking frees from the hand?

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:30:45 PM
Hurling is no more a possession based game than a penalty shoot out in soccer.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 04:33:46 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

::) If we are lolling as replies then lol. If you are pointing the finger at the free from the hand as the reason why the game is as we know it then at least have the courage of your convictions to claim you want it restored from the ground and see how many lols you get. Instead you reigned back because you know a return to the free kick from the ground is mountain man stuff. The problem with the advocates for rule changes is that they will never be happy and they don't even know what they are looking for. Its like the Brexiteers - they know they aren't happy with what they have and they want to change it but they have no clue what they actually do want and as a result they have no clear plan to get there. What is this perfect game you seek anyway? What does it look like? How do we ensure it happens in every county match?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:30:45 PM
Hurling is no more a possession based game than a penalty shoot out in soccer.
Do try and bother to at least have a look in at even one hurling match if you're going to comment on it, because you clearly know next to nothing about the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 04:48:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:30:45 PM
Hurling is no more a possession based game than a penalty shoot out in soccer.
Do try and bother to at least have a look in at even one hurling match if you're going to comment on it, because you clearly know next to nothing about the game.

only comparison hurling and football is they're played on the same field. Hurling is gold
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:49:13 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 17, 2018, 04:32:34 PM
Yes, kicks from the ground really prevent teams retaining possession which is why you never see goalkeepers take short kick outs to men who have made space for themselves.

Seriously, catch a grip of yourself here. There is no need to argue every last f**king point like a drunk **** at a bar stirring for a fight.

A goalkeeper is a specialist ball striker who is very rarely fouled and generally all 14 options are ahead of him

If Aidan O'Shea gets pulled to the ground, he can quickly get up and boot the ball 30 yards over the heads of 5 players for to where Keegan is in space on the other flank.

Roll back 30 years and Jack O'Shea gets pulled down. He spied Spillane on the other flank. Does he put the ball down and try the same approach off the ground? Does he f**k. Of course Spillane can come short and take the pass, but it's so much easier for Kieran Duff to cut off angles for such a kick as O'Shea's distance from the ball and body shape determine where the ball is going.

Stop being an argumentative **** for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

So if you take a free from the ground it is impossible to kick it to one of your team mates but out of your hand it isn't? Is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

So if you take a free from the ground it is impossible to kick it to one of your team mates but out of your hand it isn't? Is that what you're saying?

Are you 3 years old?

Show me where "impossible" comes into this. The key to possession football is in reducing the chance of dispossession.

You're a f**king childish ****
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 17, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

So if you take a free from the ground it is impossible to kick it to one of your team mates but out of your hand it isn't? Is that what you're saying?

Are you 3 years old?

Show me where "impossible" comes into this. The key to possession football is in reducing the chance of dispossession.

You're a f**king childish ****

Calm down big lad. You're getting way too wound up about this. Does some Dublin fella out the front of your house keep taking your ball off you? 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 17, 2018, 05:37:24 PM
Possession is also facilitated by superior S&C and brutal training regimes.
This is concentrating success amongst a smaller number of teams.
The spectacle suffers.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: APM on July 17, 2018, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

So if you take a free from the ground it is impossible to kick it to one of your team mates but out of your hand it isn't? Is that what you're saying?

Are you 3 years old?

Show me where "impossible" comes into this. The key to possession football is in reducing the chance of dispossession.

You're a f**king childish ****

Calm down big lad. You're getting way too wound up about this. Does some Dublin fella out the front of your house keep taking your ball off you?

He's absolutely correct to be frustrated at your nonsense and smugness.  I can't understand why people cannot recognize a major problem when they see it.

There's a cycle involved that leads to the strong teams getting stronger and harder to beat! It goes like this - weaker county innovates (new training methods like Down in 1960s, S&C, development squads, blanket defence in 2000s, possession football etc), they achieve success, stronger counties learn lessons, replicate and reassert dominance. 

When the stronger counties learn these lessons from innovating smaller / traditionally weaker counties who achieve temporary success, with their greater array of talent and deeper pockets the gap between the weak and strong gets progressively wider and it becomes harder to bridge the gap. 

However, you don't change the rules because some counties can't compete - you change the rules because the game is f***king unwatchable. So it's not about leveling the playing field, its about having games that people will watch.  Unless you have your head stuck in the sand, you would have to acknowledge, that in the last 10 years, attendances have been falling.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Is falling attendances solely due to the perceived "unwatchable" games? Or maybe there are a whole raft of other socio economic and cultural reasons why attendances have fallen??

For every one minute of boring play I'll give you at least one example of great tackling, great shooting, lung bursting runs, great high fielding, precision kick outs, excellent team worked scores. What a disservice posts like the above by APM do when you think of contributions like Niall Sludden's goal and ball carrying, Scully's sublime first goal, Karl O'connell's Pace and finishing, Brian Howard dominating a game at 19 years of age, Ritchie Donnelly roasting an excellent full back, Enda Smith with the goal of the season, the utterly superb David Clifford, Daniel Flynn's power running, Shane Walsh's points, Conor McManus' points from angles, Rory Beggan and Micheal Murphy's free Kicking etc and all the other good things served up over the weekend. Tell me these guys didn't provide any entertainment over the 4 games that was "watchable"? Not to mention the tactical battles that are won and lost throughout the pitch. There's hardly any talk of the sublime things that happen. What we get is a hand wringing thread about a 5 min passage of play and how we can introduce new rules to change it all. I suppose it's all about seeing what you want to see when your watching a match. Yes it isn't perfect but don't tell me that there's no entertainment or passages of great play on show week in week out or that it is "f**king unwatchable".
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 17, 2018, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Is falling attendances solely due to the perceived "unwatchable" games? Or maybe there are a whole raft of other socio economic and cultural reasons why attendances have fallen??

For every one minute of boring play I'll give you at least one example of great tackling, great shooting, lung bursting runs, great high fielding, precision kick outs, excellent team worked scores. What a disservice posts like the above by APM do when you think of contributions like Niall Sludden's goal and ball carrying, Scully's sublime first goal, Karl O'connell's Pace and finishing, Brian Howard dominating a game at 19 years of age, Ritchie Donnelly roasting an excellent full back, Enda Smith with the goal of the season, the utterly superb David Clifford, Daniel Flynn's power running, Shane Walsh's points, Conor McManus' points from angles, Rory Beggan and Micheal Murphy's free Kicking etc and all the other good things served up over the weekend. Tell me these guys didn't provide any entertainment over the 4 games that was "watchable"? Not to mention the tactical battles that are won and lost throughout the pitch. There's hardly any talk of the sublime things that happen. What we get is a hand wringing thread about a 5 min passage of play and how we can introduce new rules to change it all. I suppose it's all about seeing what you want to see when your watching a match. Yes it isn't perfect but don't tell me that there's no entertainment or passages of great play on show week in week out or that it is "f**king unwatchable".
Great post Benny
Alot of these suggestions would fundamentally change the game and while the current game certainly has some issues, the whole thing is being massively exaggerated by the narrative we constantly listen to from the media and most notably the 3 amigos on RTE .
What the game needs is minor refinement not major surgery
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: APM on July 17, 2018, 09:46:38 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Is falling attendances solely due to the perceived "unwatchable" games? Or maybe there are a whole raft of other socio economic and cultural reasons why attendances have fallen??

For every one minute of boring play I'll give you at least one example of great tackling, great shooting, lung bursting runs, great high fielding, precision kick outs, excellent team worked scores. What a disservice posts like the above by APM do when you think of contributions like Niall Sludden's goal and ball carrying, Scully's sublime first goal, Karl O'connell's Pace and finishing, Brian Howard dominating a game at 19 years of age, Ritchie Donnelly roasting an excellent full back, Enda Smith with the goal of the season, the utterly superb David Clifford, Daniel Flynn's power running, Shane Walsh's points, Conor McManus' points from angles, Rory Beggan and Micheal Murphy's free Kicking etc and all the other good things served up over the weekend. Tell me these guys didn't provide any entertainment over the 4 games that was "watchable"? Not to mention the tactical battles that are won and lost throughout the pitch. There's hardly any talk of the sublime things that happen. What we get is a hand wringing thread about a 5 min passage of play and how we can introduce new rules to change it all. I suppose it's all about seeing what you want to see when your watching a match. Yes it isn't perfect but don't tell me that there's no entertainment or passages of great play on show week in week out or that it is "f**king unwatchable".

There are usually plenty of bits of individual brilliance to keep you interested and I usually get a kick out of most games and not all games are poor. Also, one thing about Gaelic Football is that even in a poor game, you will get flashes of brilliance, which means it will always hold an attraction for me.   However, watching Niall Sludden get a good goal in a 18pt hammering of Roscommon might be great for Tyrone supporters, but it means little to the neutral who would prefer to see a great goal that is crucial in terms of the result.  I'm thinking of Maurice Fitzgerald's goal in extra time v Armagh in 2000.  Mulligan's goal v Dublin in 2005.  Those were great goals in tight games, against strong opposition in games that could have swung one way or another. 

Football is a fantastic sport when it's end to end, with both teams going for it, taking risks and playing with adventure, as Brolly likes to say. The crowd feeds of this kind of excitement and I think the players respond to it.  I hate to say it, but the kind of possession Gaelic Football that we see now on a regular basis is too much like soccer for my liking.  Tactically it is much more advanced and for the anorak, there is much to admire, but its hard to get excited about guys passing the ball about in an arc around the '50' and back passing into their own half. The atmosphere of so many games these days is terribly flat and that in turn means that it is not as enjoyable for the crowd, whether they are neutral or not. 

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 09:46:49 PM
Well considering that teams playing keep in their own half has only been a sporadic thing until recently, surely to god it's a minor refinement to find ways to stem it from happening.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 10:04:33 PM
Quote from: APM on July 17, 2018, 09:46:38 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Is falling attendances solely due to the perceived "unwatchable" games? Or maybe there are a whole raft of other socio economic and cultural reasons why attendances have fallen??

For every one minute of boring play I'll give you at least one example of great tackling, great shooting, lung bursting runs, great high fielding, precision kick outs, excellent team worked scores. What a disservice posts like the above by APM do when you think of contributions like Niall Sludden's goal and ball carrying, Scully's sublime first goal, Karl O'connell's Pace and finishing, Brian Howard dominating a game at 19 years of age, Ritchie Donnelly roasting an excellent full back, Enda Smith with the goal of the season, the utterly superb David Clifford, Daniel Flynn's power running, Shane Walsh's points, Conor McManus' points from angles, Rory Beggan and Micheal Murphy's free Kicking etc and all the other good things served up over the weekend. Tell me these guys didn't provide any entertainment over the 4 games that was "watchable"? Not to mention the tactical battles that are won and lost throughout the pitch. There's hardly any talk of the sublime things that happen. What we get is a hand wringing thread about a 5 min passage of play and how we can introduce new rules to change it all. I suppose it's all about seeing what you want to see when your watching a match. Yes it isn't perfect but don't tell me that there's no entertainment or passages of great play on show week in week out or that it is "f**king unwatchable".

There are usually plenty of bits of individual brilliance to keep you interested and I usually get a kick out of most games and not all games are poor. Also, one thing about Gaelic Football is that even in a poor game, you will get flashes of brilliance, which means it will always hold an attraction for me.   However, watching Niall Sludden get a good goal in a 18pt hammering of Roscommon might be great for Tyrone supporters, but it means little to the neutral who would prefer to see a great goal that is crucial in terms of the result.  I'm thinking of Maurice Fitzgerald's goal in extra time v Armagh in 2000.  Mulligan's goal v Dublin in 2005.  Those were great goals in tight games, against strong opposition in games that could have swung one way or another. 

Football is a fantastic sport when it's end to end, with both teams going for it, taking risks and playing with adventure, as Brolly likes to say. The crowd feeds of this kind of excitement and I think the players respond to it.  I hate to say it, but the kind of possession Gaelic Football that we see now on a regular basis is too much like soccer for my liking.  Tactically it is much more advanced and for the anorak, there is much to admire, but its hard to get excited about guys passing the ball about in an arc around the '50' and back passing into their own half. The atmosphere of so many games these days is terribly flat and that in turn means that it is not as enjoyable for the crowd, whether they are neutral or not.

Just a point of notice - Sludden's goal put Tyrone in front in the 12th minute - did you know at that stage it was going to be a 18 point hammering? Or does context in hindsight change the quality of the goal? And quoting Joe Brolly? Jesus wept!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: APM on July 17, 2018, 10:07:41 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 17, 2018, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Is falling attendances solely due to the perceived "unwatchable" games? Or maybe there are a whole raft of other socio economic and cultural reasons why attendances have fallen??

For every one minute of boring play I'll give you at least one example of great tackling, great shooting, lung bursting runs, great high fielding, precision kick outs, excellent team worked scores. What a disservice posts like the above by APM do when you think of contributions like Niall Sludden's goal and ball carrying, Scully's sublime first goal, Karl O'connell's Pace and finishing, Brian Howard dominating a game at 19 years of age, Ritchie Donnelly roasting an excellent full back, Enda Smith with the goal of the season, the utterly superb David Clifford, Daniel Flynn's power running, Shane Walsh's points, Conor McManus' points from angles, Rory Beggan and Micheal Murphy's free Kicking etc and all the other good things served up over the weekend. Tell me these guys didn't provide any entertainment over the 4 games that was "watchable"? Not to mention the tactical battles that are won and lost throughout the pitch. There's hardly any talk of the sublime things that happen. What we get is a hand wringing thread about a 5 min passage of play and how we can introduce new rules to change it all. I suppose it's all about seeing what you want to see when your watching a match. Yes it isn't perfect but don't tell me that there's no entertainment or passages of great play on show week in week out or that it is "f**king unwatchable".
Great post Benny
Alot of these suggestions would fundamentally change the game and while the current game certainly has some issues, the whole thing is being massively exaggerated by the narrative we constantly listen to from the media and most notably the 3 amigos on RTE .
What the game needs is minor refinement not major surgery

I would actually agree with that and have a major issue with the constant negativity from the RTE pundits who have been denigrating the game for years now.  However, in the last couple of years, I have come round to the notion that they might just have a point on some of what they are saying.  I said above, they are partly right about the quality of our games, but the constant negativity that they have been preaching over an extended period of time is very harmful. 

I remember my father saying that Micheal O'Hare could have made a bad game sound good.  Micheal O'Muircheartaigh was the same and they seen that as being part of their job.  Brolly, Spillane and O'Rourke are quite the opposite and seem to have no interest in emphasising the positive. 

Nonetheless, we should also be prepared to address the fact that attendances are falling for a reason and you can bury your head in the sand all you like, but you explain to me why the atmosphere at so many games these days is so flat.  The supporters at the game don't have Brolly and Co. ringing in their ears at Healy Park and Clones to tell them what to think.  People get out of their seats when there is something to get excited about and I think in more and more games there is less to get you excited.  I appreciate that that kind of stuff is difficult to prove. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 10:16:14 PM
Any harm in suggesting that RTE's constant stream of negative punditry is feeding this perception that the game's getting worse when no such thing is happening?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: theskull1 on July 17, 2018, 10:22:38 PM
I've recorded and watched the last half a dozen Sunday Game football matches start to finish on the fastest fast forward hoping to see if the game might develop into something worth watching . I'm not so sure I'm the only one. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on July 17, 2018, 10:37:48 PM
To be honest RTE's 3 amigos were decrying the state of the game back when it was a fine sport to watch. O'Rourke and Spillane were spouting the same negative shite 15 years ago as they are now. I'm not in agreement with them or the Luddite Brolly but the game for me has declined as a spectacle in the last 6-7 years.

I don't blame Harte, McGuinness or Gavin. Their remit is to be successful and to win and to give them credit they do not win games by 0-1 to no score on a regular basis. All 3 have presided over teams playing wonderful football down the years. The problem is they have discovered the key to winning matches is to blanket defend, hit teams on the break and treasure possession. They've studied the game to death and discovered this is the most successful way to corner the rule-book.

So in my opinion we need to modify the rules to close off this focus on possession and to incentivise risk taking. This shouldn't be seen as a tax on tactical genius, Harte and Gavin will find ways to exploit the new game after a couple of years and fair dues if they do.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 11:00:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 10:16:14 PM
Any harm in suggesting that RTE's constant stream of negative punditry is feeding this perception that the game's getting worse when no such thing is happening?

did you watch the games at the weekend? people are capable of thinking for themselves. Brolly and them didn't even criticise the last 10 mins of Dublin game which  was dire
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 11:15:53 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 11:00:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 10:16:14 PM
Any harm in suggesting that RTE's constant stream of negative punditry is feeding this perception that the game's getting worse when no such thing is happening?

did you watch the games at the weekend? people are capable of thinking for themselves. Brolly and them didn't even criticise the last 10 mins of Dublin game which  was dire

Didn't see the games at the weekend.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 17, 2018, 11:20:38 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 11:15:53 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 17, 2018, 11:00:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 17, 2018, 10:16:14 PM
Any harm in suggesting that RTE's constant stream of negative punditry is feeding this perception that the game's getting worse when no such thing is happening?

did you watch the games at the weekend? people are capable of thinking for themselves. Brolly and them didn't even criticise the last 10 mins of Dublin game which  was dire

Didn't see the games at the weekend.

Ok... not easy viewing, to put it mildly.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on July 17, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
Lots of good arguments from all sides.  For me the modern game has taken away the spontaneity and has replaced it with systems and pre-planning.  Nobody is arguing that the strength and fitness levels are at an all time high but that fitness combined with a fear of losing and sports science has removed the spontaneity.  Yes there are some good games, but unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.  When you have 15 players inside the 45 meter line its hard to break down thus the back passing Etc.

I would advocate that each team keeps 4 outfield players in their opponents half at all time matched by 4 from the other team and would also make passing the ball back to your own half a foul.  Managers won't advocate this but I think it needs to be done before Gaelic football dies...
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on July 18, 2018, 12:10:14 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 17, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
Lots of good arguments from all sides.  For me the modern game has taken away the spontaneity and has replaced it with systems and pre-planning.  Nobody is arguing that the strength and fitness levels are at an all time high but that fitness combined with a fear of losing and sports science has removed the spontaneity.  Yes there are some good games, but unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.  When you have 15 players inside the 45 meter line its hard to break down thus the back passing Etc.

I would advocate that each team keeps 4 outfield players in their opponents half at all time matched by 4 from the other team and would also make passing the ball back to your own half a foul.  Managers won't advocate this but I think it needs to be done before Gaelic football dies...

Any 4 players at anytime? A possible suggestion but the ref couldn't be left in charge of counting who's doing what and where.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on July 18, 2018, 01:14:46 AM
And if they don't adhere to this rule where would the free be from?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 18, 2018, 08:23:41 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2018, 01:14:46 AM
And if they don't adhere to this rule where would the free be from?

Does the ref in club football keep counting to make sure there is 4 in the half and ref the other half of the pitch as well?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 18, 2018, 08:35:04 AM
Quote from: APM on July 17, 2018, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

So if you take a free from the ground it is impossible to kick it to one of your team mates but out of your hand it isn't? Is that what you're saying?

Are you 3 years old?

Show me where "impossible" comes into this. The key to possession football is in reducing the chance of dispossession.

You're a f**king childish ****

Calm down big lad. You're getting way too wound up about this. Does some Dublin fella out the front of your house keep taking your ball off you?

He's absolutely correct to be frustrated at your nonsense and smugness.  I can't understand why people cannot recognize a major problem when they see it.

There's a cycle involved that leads to the strong teams getting stronger and harder to beat! It goes like this - weaker county innovates (new training methods like Down in 1960s, S&C, development squads, blanket defence in 2000s, possession football etc), they achieve success, stronger counties learn lessons, replicate and reassert dominance. 

When the stronger counties learn these lessons from innovating smaller / traditionally weaker counties who achieve temporary success, with their greater array of talent and deeper pockets the gap between the weak and strong gets progressively wider and it becomes harder to bridge the gap. 

However, you don't change the rules because some counties can't compete - you change the rules because the game is f***king unwatchable. So it's not about leveling the playing field, its about having games that people will watch.  Unless you have your head stuck in the sand, you would have to acknowledge, that in the last 10 years, attendances have been falling.

If anyone should be frustrated it's me. The thread is about stopping 'puke keep-ball' People don't like it when Dublin keep the ball. However they are then going off on a completely different tangent about blanket defences, Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
What is the exact issue? If the issue is Dublin keeping the ball, well you can't simply make a new rule because one team is better than another. That is ludicrous. And some of the 'ideas' are mental. 3 players in one half, no crossing the half way line, limiting hand passes. These are suggestions that anyone who has played the game to any sort of level know that A) the referee will be unable to enforce B) will ruin the game and turn it into something like a bastardised version of Rugby (catch & kick)

I already made a number of suggestions that would improve the game as a spectacle without a fundamental and radical rule change. I.e. Bring it back to 13 or 14 a side, play 80 mins and limit subs to 3-4. Less players, more space. Tired players, more space. But crucially this doesn't punish a team for being better than the rest.
I am not against change, but something as stupid as punishing a team for holding possession needs called out.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 08:42:25 AM
Quote from: cjx on July 15, 2018, 11:55:14 PM
Keep Ball as Dublin played it yesterday (14/7) will put so many off Gaelic Football and is most cynical
Needs a rule change to combat/reduce it.

What about a free to other side (from centre line) if team passes ball into own half twice during a period of continuous possession.

That would force the team playing keep ball to think more and confusion might break it up
or
would force a team to stay forward
or
encourage the team without the ball to press up.

Any thoughts or better ideas?
Ban all handpassing.
The game  has mutated into something it shouldn't be
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:30:45 PM
Hurling is no more a possession based game than a penalty shoot out in soccer.

Do try and bother to at least have a look in at even one hurling match if you're going to comment on it, because you clearly know next to nothing about the game.
Hurling is different because players can score from further out. If you can get long range scorers and fellas who can secure dirty ball you don't need to play keep ball for 3 minutes. Anyway it would be unmanly.

I'd love to see the stats on average length of the Dubs passes compared to 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 18, 2018, 09:05:44 AM
Happened to catch the 2nd half of an u16 championship match last night. The victors (opposition) did the same thing as the Dubs, they even went from their attacking 45 back to their gk. Whatever about fans, I'm sure our young lads were fairly pissed off about it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 10:49:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 08:35:04 AM


I already made a number of suggestions that would improve the game as a spectacle without a fundamental and radical rule change. I.e. Bring it back to 13 or 14 a side, play 80 mins and limit subs to 3-4. Less players, more space. Tired players, more space. But crucially this doesn't punish a team for being better than the rest.
I am not against change, but something as stupid as punishing a team for holding possession needs called out.
If people are actually serious about improving competition, the obvious thing to do is to reduce the number of substitutions back to three.

Mayo might well have a couple of All-Irelands this decade had this rule been in place.

With six substitutions, it plays completely into the hands of Dublin.

70 minutes and 15-a-side is just fine.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.

Pretty much every field sport, so.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:39:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.

Pretty much every field sport, so.

The rules have to change if the sport isn't doing what it says on the tin. I think rossfan's point about GF mutating from catch and kick to pure possession is a very good one. The rules are out of date.   
Maybe a fan survey would be in order.

Other field sports have less of a Japanese knotweed problem imo.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.

"Fogra, anois, there will be no shot clock in this match as John can't find the remote. Please stand for amhran na bhfiann"
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on July 18, 2018, 12:09:35 PM
I don't think a shot clock would work because I think it would actually give additional incentive for defenders to sit deep knowing that after a certain pre-determined period of time the attacking team will have to come forward. For example, last week, it would just mean that Donegal would have less incentive to come out to try to get the ball back from dublin knowing that if they wait 30 seconds Dublin will have to come forward and they'll get the ball back.

But saying that a shot clock is unworkable because we won't have a workable clock at every match is ridiculous. How do they manage at every basketball match in the country? We are not that backward in the gaa that the ref can't bring a clock with him to be used at a 'table' in the same way as is done in basketball.

Anyway, as I said above, I don't think a shot clock is the solution. I think any rule changes have to be to 'discourage' defensive play from the team without the ball, rather than trying to encourage the team with the ball to attack.  I think there is sufficient incentive for teams to attack at the moment (i.e. to get scores) but the problem at the moment is that the best way to attack against a team with 13/14/15 behind the ball is to be patient and recyle the ball a hundred times until an opening appears (or they get turned over).
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on July 18, 2018, 12:12:39 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 18, 2018, 08:23:41 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2018, 01:14:46 AM
And if they don't adhere to this rule where would the free be from?

Does the ref in club football keep counting to make sure there is 4 in the half and ref the other half of the pitch as well?

Free would be from the half way line as that's technically where the foul occurred.  Umpires could police it as there nothing else going on in that half of the field. Not being able to go back into your own half would completely change the dynamic as the easy option of booting it back 60 yards to an open player is minimized. 
Once again this is not an anti-dub rant, it's an appeal for the element of spontaneity and enjoyment to be restored to a game we all (at least used to) love.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Solo_run on July 18, 2018, 12:18:34 PM
Before there are any major changes there needs to be a change into how rules are implemented as there is too much of a discrepancy between how referees interpret the rules. However players don't make their jobs any easier by going down easily to win frees. If this happens, there should be severe consequences for teams - not just players, if they are later found to mislead the referee.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
Quote from: westbound on July 18, 2018, 12:09:35 PM
I don't think a shot clock would work because I think it would actually give additional incentive for defenders to sit deep knowing that after a certain pre-determined period of time the attacking team will have to come forward. For example, last week, it would just mean that Donegal would have less incentive to come out to try to get the ball back from dublin knowing that if they wait 30 seconds Dublin will have to come forward and they'll get the ball back.

But saying that a shot clock is unworkable because we won't have a workable clock at every match is ridiculous. How do they manage at every basketball match in the country? We are not that backward in the gaa that the ref can't bring a clock with him to be used at a 'table' in the same way as is done in basketball.

Anyway, as I said above, I don't think a shot clock is the solution. I think any rule changes have to be to 'discourage' defensive play from the team without the ball, rather than trying to encourage the team with the ball to attack.  I think there is sufficient incentive for teams to attack at the moment (i.e. to get scores) but the problem at the moment is that the best way to attack against a team with 13/14/15 behind the ball is to be patient and recyle the ball a hundred times until an opening appears (or they get turned over).

No we're not backward at all. But you want a person sitting at a table with a clock. You do realise players would need to see the thing to be able to know when their 30 secs or whatever is up? You realise how big it needs to be?
A shot clock is a f**king stupid idea. And anyone who suggests it is f**king stupid.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 18, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
13 a side?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Solo_run on July 18, 2018, 12:36:11 PM
If 15 men throw themselves behind the ball to limit attacking play then perhaps the GAA should look at something that rewards attacking play and allow for wides to count towards scores.

Goal - 4
Over bar - 2
Wide - 1

Even if teams have to kick from afar the chances of getting a score is increased.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: TheGreatest on July 18, 2018, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 18, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
13 a side?

Most sensible post on this whole thread.

Rename the thread " how to stop the Dubs winning by changing the rules of the game"
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Solo_run on July 18, 2018, 12:50:13 PM
I do not think the 13 a side idea will put an end to the blanket defence.

It will create more space but it will mean the top teams will become even fitter and it will create a larger gap between those at the top and those in the middle. This is an amateur game, the last thing we need is to place additional attention on the fitness of players.

That being said, additional subs may benefit the game as there will no longer be a need for players to maintain a full 70 minutes of intense football. In turn if there is less emphasis on fitness players may actually want to play county football.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 18, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Have to laugh at Harte and these patronising expert coaches who said the game was "evolving"... good to see now the penny has dropped and people realise the game was being destroyed
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 01:04:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Translation - Throw random half cooked rule changes out there while moaning about the game dying.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 18, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Have to laugh at Harte and these expert coaches who said the game was "evolving"... good to see now the penny has dropped and people realise the game was being destroyed and guess who was right all along... Joe Brolly

Who? A handful of people on this board??
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 18, 2018, 01:11:24 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 18, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Have to laugh at Harte and these expert coaches who said the game was "evolving"... good to see now the penny has dropped and people realise the game was being destroyed and guess who was right all along... Joe Brolly

Who? A handful of people on this board??

most of the GAA has copped onto it hence the fall in attendances... blind yourself to it and it'll get worse. Check out Rory Story latest skit on it... is huge agreement with him. Disgrace how these coaches ruined our game sure even Enda McGinley has seen the light, took a while but he got there
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 18, 2018, 01:11:24 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 18, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Have to laugh at Harte and these expert coaches who said the game was "evolving"... good to see now the penny has dropped and people realise the game was being destroyed and guess who was right all along... Joe Brolly

Who? A handful of people on this board??

most of the GAA has copped onto it hence the fall in attendances... blind yourself to it and it'll get worse. Check out Rory Story latest skit on it... is huge agreement with him. Disgrace how these coaches ruined our game sure even Enda McGinley has seen the light, took a while but he got there

Aye attendances are down but to point the finger at one issue is a bit short sighted. There's any number of socioeconomic and cultural factors playing a part in that and they won't be changed by implementing a feckin shot clock or stopping players back passing. That's a much bigger issue. Your guru Mr Brolly has done more than most to tarnish the view of the game - whatever happened to his half baked rule change about all kick outs going beyond the 45 or something like that?? Even he must have thought it was a bag of shite - didn't stop him sharing it with us all though. And ffs if you are using Rory's Stories as a piece of evidence to back up your point then you are struggling, you do realise he's taking the piss don't you??

https://amp.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/joe-brollys-proposed-rules-for-gaelic-football-to-be-put-to-the-test-31332148.html
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: joemamas on July 18, 2018, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.

I think the same thing could happen in this years final, chances are they will be in it and could very well be leading as we approach the 65th minute.

It may take something like this garbage on the biggest stage for croke park to address it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 18, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.

The key part of your sentence being "in other sports"
Come up with one rule change that will stop the Dubs keeping ball and critically will work in Gaelic Football.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 02:11:35 PM
Why the focus on the half way line here (GAA pitches don't have a half-way line).

Sure why not ban any passes that go backwards at all?

Make Gaelic football like rugby?

You could change the shape of the ball too.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 02:14:58 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.

The key part of your sentence being "in other sports"
Come up with one rule change that will stop the Dubs keeping ball and critically will work in Gaelic Football.
You could have a mandatory time out with five minutes left, where each Dublin player runs to the sideline and is handcuffed for the remainder of the game?

Seems workable.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.

The key part of your sentence being "in other sports"
Come up with one rule change that will stop the Dubs keeping ball and critically will work in Gaelic Football.
I think the starting point is that it is no longer Gaelic football.
You could then analyse what other sports do about the possession problem.
I don't have time right now but I might look into it.

Rugby has the scrum...

Maybe one thing would be to let the Dubs off into a third championship called Possession Gaelic and let everyone else play football.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: TheGreatest on July 18, 2018, 02:48:30 PM
Here's an idea, when 5 or 6 points down with 10 minutes to go the losing team instead of having 14 men in their own half and closing up space could actually push up, go man on man and try and win the ball back as they require the ball to get the required scores to get themselves back into the game.

The team that are winning do not require the scores therefore do not need to attack, their work is done. The winning team are required to close out the game to ensure the victory for themselves and their fans by whatever means necessary and are not there to please the country with 75 minutes of samba Gaelic football and risk conceding the ensured victory.

Perhaps this could be practiced on the training pitch, however some teams may not have the fitness to do it, but not an excuse.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 02:49:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.

The key part of your sentence being "in other sports"
Come up with one rule change that will stop the Dubs keeping ball and critically will work in Gaelic Football.
I think the starting point is that it is no longer Gaelic football.
You could then analyse what other sports do about the possession problem.
I don't have time right now but I might look into it.

Rugby has the scrum...

Maybe one thing would be to let the Dubs off into a third championship called Possession Gaelic and let everyone else play football.

Do any other sports think that having possession of the ball is a problem? 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jayop on July 18, 2018, 04:08:13 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 02:49:21 PM
Do any other sports think that having possession of the ball is a problem?

Basketball really did to the point they introduced the radical shot clock idea. That works in basketball though because every court is more or less the same and you don't need a jumbotron sized clock on both ends of the field for the players to be able to see it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 02:14:58 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.

Come up with something to fix the game rather than moaning. The game is dying.

Twice on this thread I have suggested changes. You can go back and read them if you wish.
I'm not moaning. I'm pointing out unworkable, ill thought-out changes.
They work in other sports.
The sight of the Dubs playing keep ball for the last 2 and a half minutes of the AIF last year was a sign of how fucked up the game is.

The key part of your sentence being "in other sports"
Come up with one rule change that will stop the Dubs keeping ball and critically will work in Gaelic Football.
You could have a mandatory time out with five minutes left, where each Dublin player runs to the sideline and is handcuffed for the remainder of the game?

Seems workable.
Maybe a focus on manliness would do the trick


http://rugbylad.com/watch-luke-fitzgerald-absolutely-tears-into-paul-kimmage-in-heated-argument/

Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
 Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: dec on July 18, 2018, 04:48:13 PM
Quote from: Jayop on July 18, 2018, 04:08:13 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 18, 2018, 02:49:21 PM
Do any other sports think that having possession of the ball is a problem?

Basketball really did to the point they introduced the radical shot clock idea. That works in basketball though because every court is more or less the same and you don't need a jumbotron sized clock on both ends of the field for the players to be able to see it.

American football introduced the 4 downs system and rugby league introduced the 6 tackle rule to prevent teams from just holding possession and trying to run down the clock
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on July 18, 2018, 04:59:59 PM
Prepared to accept I'm out of touch about this.

But, I see nothing wrong with keeping the ball if a) you're skilful enough to do it and b) the opposition won't do something about it albeit risk leaving yourself massively open at the back.

Do you think the Dubs would allow Tyrone to keep ball for the last 5 mins - not a chance. They'll tear into us and attempt to turn the ball over.

Also, not many teams can do what Dublin did on Saturday. But again, they were allowed to do it. If you're 4/5 down with 4/5 left you flood their half or middle third if they attempt to keep possession. Go down fighting. When Tyrone led by 3 in both AI wins v Kerry there was no chance Tyrone could pass the parcel because Kerry were down their throats.

Maybe that's easier said than done.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Solo_run on July 18, 2018, 05:03:56 PM
I actually think holding the ball is the way to beat blanket defences.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on July 18, 2018, 05:09:45 PM
Nearly sure in the Dublin Tyrone game last year Colm Cavanagh was exasperated at how his own players wouldn't leave their stations when Dublin held the ball around the middle, waving them up to dung out around the middle. Only a handful did.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Solo_run on July 18, 2018, 05:29:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on July 18, 2018, 05:09:45 PM
Nearly sure in the Dublin Tyrone game last year Colm Cavanagh was exasperated at how his own players wouldn't leave their stations when Dublin held the ball around the middle, waving them up to dung out around the middle. Only a handful did.

Think the fear is there that when teams defend all they will do is defend, whenever players are passing the ball around in the middle, in front of the defence they are almost daring the opposition to push up on them. The problem is, when you push up gaps open up.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on July 18, 2018, 05:39:45 PM
Yea I accept that idea. But I don't accept it in practice when you're 4 down with the clock hurtling towards time added on. Surely going man to man at that moment is pivotal to preventing keep-ball, or at least trying to.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 18, 2018, 05:55:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
Quote from: westbound on July 18, 2018, 12:09:35 PM
I don't think a shot clock would work because I think it would actually give additional incentive for defenders to sit deep knowing that after a certain pre-determined period of time the attacking team will have to come forward. For example, last week, it would just mean that Donegal would have less incentive to come out to try to get the ball back from dublin knowing that if they wait 30 seconds Dublin will have to come forward and they'll get the ball back.

But saying that a shot clock is unworkable because we won't have a workable clock at every match is ridiculous. How do they manage at every basketball match in the country? We are not that backward in the gaa that the ref can't bring a clock with him to be used at a 'table' in the same way as is done in basketball.

Anyway, as I said above, I don't think a shot clock is the solution. I think any rule changes have to be to 'discourage' defensive play from the team without the ball, rather than trying to encourage the team with the ball to attack.  I think there is sufficient incentive for teams to attack at the moment (i.e. to get scores) but the problem at the moment is that the best way to attack against a team with 13/14/15 behind the ball is to be patient and recyle the ball a hundred times until an opening appears (or they get turned over).

No we're not backward at all. But you want a person sitting at a table with a clock. You do realise players would need to see the thing to be able to know when their 30 secs or whatever is up? You realise how big it needs to be?
A shot clock is a f**king stupid idea. And anyone who suggests it is f**king stupid.
Its hard enough to get enough referees at club level to keep fixtures running, let alone an additional official to look after a shot clock.
Aside from that, placing a time limit on how long you have to get a shot away just added another defensive strategy to the list and would fundamentally change the way the game is played, not just get rid of 'keep ball' when a  team is ahead
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on July 19, 2018, 07:33:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 04:36:59 PM

Maybe a focus on manliness would do the trick

http://rugbylad.com/watch-luke-fitzgerald-absolutely-tears-into-paul-kimmage-in-heated-argument/

Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland.

What complete and utter nonsense. But would hardly accept anything less. And what a stupid link to put up.

What Dublin did was not within the rules, which is why they were punished. The kickout which they had won (unfairly) was forced to be retaken, the Dubs were made play the remainder couple of minutes with one less man, and time was added on for the time wasted.

Mayo then had a kickout with an extra man. If they found that extra man, they would almost inevitably get up to a scoring position and have a chance to equalise, and Dublin's tactic would have backfired spectacularly. But the keeper kicked the ball over the sideline, so we'll never know if they would have taken that chance. So then idiots like Kimmage and Seafoid, decide it was the previous kickout that was forced to be retaken that was the important one! Gobshites.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: dublin7 on July 19, 2018, 07:47:45 AM
Quote from: Hound on July 19, 2018, 07:33:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 04:36:59 PM

Maybe a focus on manliness would do the trick

http://rugbylad.com/watch-luke-fitzgerald-absolutely-tears-into-paul-kimmage-in-heated-argument/

Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland.

What complete and utter nonsense. But would hardly accept anything less. And what a stupid link to put up.

What Dublin did was not within the rules, which is why they were punished. The kickout which they had won (unfairly) was forced to be retaken, the Dubs were made play the remainder couple of minutes with one less man, and time was added on for the time wasted.

Mayo then had a kickout with an extra man. If they found that extra man, they would almost inevitably get up to a scoring position and have a chance to equalise, and Dublin's tactic would have backfired spectacularly. But the keeper kicked the ball over the sideline, so we'll never know if they would have taken that chance. So then idiots like Kimmage and Seafoid, decide it was the previous kickout that was forced to be retaken that was the important one! Gobshites.

While everything you said is correct, unfortunately it doesn't tie into the media narrative that poor auld Mayo lost yet another final.

If the dubs do win the All Ireland this year, maybe just maybe journalists migrate actually write about their achievements rather than the usual lazy mayo hard luck stories
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on July 19, 2018, 07:57:13 AM
Quote from: dublin7 on July 19, 2018, 07:47:45 AM
Quote from: Hound on July 19, 2018, 07:33:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 04:36:59 PM

Maybe a focus on manliness would do the trick

http://rugbylad.com/watch-luke-fitzgerald-absolutely-tears-into-paul-kimmage-in-heated-argument/

Those are the rules. You go through them to show me where it is ok to do what Dublin did last Sunday. 37:00
Three Mayo players are wrestled to the ground in the last few minutes. Disgraceful way to win all Ireland.

What complete and utter nonsense. But would hardly accept anything less. And what a stupid link to put up.

What Dublin did was not within the rules, which is why they were punished. The kickout which they had won (unfairly) was forced to be retaken, the Dubs were made play the remainder couple of minutes with one less man, and time was added on for the time wasted.

Mayo then had a kickout with an extra man. If they found that extra man, they would almost inevitably get up to a scoring position and have a chance to equalise, and Dublin's tactic would have backfired spectacularly. But the keeper kicked the ball over the sideline, so we'll never know if they would have taken that chance. So then idiots like Kimmage and Seafoid, decide it was the previous kickout that was forced to be retaken that was the important one! Gobshites.

While everything you said is correct, unfortunately it doesn't tie into the media narrative that poor auld Mayo lost yet another final.

If the dubs do win the All Ireland this year, maybe just maybe journalists migrate actually write about their achievements rather than the usual lazy mayo hard luck stories

Seriously, do you think this Dublin teams achievements haven't been fully recognised by the media?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Solo_run on July 19, 2018, 12:22:57 PM
Introduce a rule where teams have to have a minimum of players remaining in the oppositions half at all times.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on July 19, 2018, 03:10:25 PM
What would the sanction be?
Free?
From where?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 19, 2018, 04:05:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 19, 2018, 03:10:25 PM
What would the sanction be?
Free?
From where?

Then who polices it? The ref while watching other half.

Umpires and linesmen at club games never neutral so can't be them. Goal scored. Sorry ref they had too few in half. We have to keep for up so have 15 v 11 in other half.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 19, 2018, 05:08:29 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.
No issue with that. Just don't think it would have much of an impact on the game.

Yeah, a small start.  Makes everyone look forward at least. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on July 19, 2018, 05:47:15 PM
Agree with that.  Also ban " throw" points while we're at it..
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: didlyi on July 19, 2018, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.

A free kick is supposed to be an advantage to the team taking it. If you can backpass during normal play then surely it would not be fair to punish a freetaker for playing it backwards. If your going to stop backpasses then start doing it in normal play.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: didlyi on July 19, 2018, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.

A free kick is supposed to be an advantage to the team taking it. If you can backpass during normal play then surely it would not be fair to punish a freetaker for playing it backwards. If your going to stop backpasses then start doing it in normal play.

Except a free taker cannot be pressured and has time to pick out a team mate to send the ball towards.  That team mate should catch the ball forward from the kicker is hardly presenting a difficulty.

Your logic says the kick out rule of the ball going outside the 20m line before being played by the kicking team should be rescinded...hardly an improvement.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on July 19, 2018, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: didlyi on July 19, 2018, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.

A free kick is supposed to be an advantage to the team taking it. If you can backpass during normal play then surely it would not be fair to punish a freetaker for playing it backwards. If your going to stop backpasses then start doing it in normal play.

What do you do if the free is half way inside the half on the sideline?
Except a free taker cannot be pressured and has time to pick out a team mate to send the ball towards.  That team mate should catch the ball forward from the kicker is hardly presenting a difficulty.

Your logic says the kick out rule of the ball going outside the 20m line before being played by the kicking team should be rescinded...hardly an improvement.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 10:26:43 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 19, 2018, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: didlyi on July 19, 2018, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.

A free kick is supposed to be an advantage to the team taking it. If you can backpass during normal play then surely it would not be fair to punish a freetaker for playing it backwards. If your going to stop backpasses then start doing it in normal play.

What do you do if the free is half way inside the half on the sideline?

Except a free taker cannot be pressured and has time to pick out a team mate to send the ball towards.  That team mate should catch the ball forward from the kicker is hardly presenting a difficulty.

Your logic says the kick out rule of the ball going outside the 20m line before being played by the kicking team should be rescinded...hardly an improvement.

If that is some sort of a question, I'll need a translation.  But taking a stab at what you mean, the no backward frees is not applicable inside the 20m line of the attacking team.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 19, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 19, 2018, 05:08:29 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.
No issue with that. Just don't think it would have much of an impact on the game.

Yeah, a small start.  Makes everyone look forward at least.

So put on the blanket if a free or sideline because you won't have a need to push up on other players.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 10:44:28 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: didlyi on July 19, 2018, 06:17:42 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.

A free kick is supposed to be an advantage to the team taking it. If you can backpass during normal play then surely it would not be fair to punish a freetaker for playing it backwards. If your going to stop backpasses then start doing it in normal play.

Except a free taker cannot be pressured and has time to pick out a team mate to send the ball towards.  That team mate should catch the ball forward from the kicker is hardly presenting a difficulty.

Your logic says the kick out rule of the ball going outside the 20m line before being played by the kicking team should be rescinded...hardly an improvement.
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 19, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 19, 2018, 05:08:29 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.
No issue with that. Just don't think it would have much of an impact on the game.

Yeah, a small start.  Makes everyone look forward at least.

So put on the blanket if a free or sideline because you won't have a need to push up on other players.

You missed the part in bold.  A freetaker should be able to pick out his runners just like the goalie's kick out has to go forward. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: JoG2 on July 19, 2018, 10:52:20 PM
Mercenary managers must pay tax on the contents of the brown envelope if their teams play anti-football.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 10:54:19 PM
The 4 points for a goal idea died as well...that would really add to the blanket. 

It will all turn into seven a side, with unlimited substitution.  Six forwards and one other are replaced after every score by your six backs and a keeper.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 19, 2018, 11:18:36 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 19, 2018, 10:46:22 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 19, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 19, 2018, 05:08:29 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on July 19, 2018, 05:00:04 PM
Free kicks and sideline kicks cannot go backwards.
No issue with that. Just don't think it would have much of an impact on the game.

Yeah, a small start.  Makes everyone look forward at least.

So put on the blanket if a free or sideline because you won't have a need to push up on other players.
You're suggesting this doesn't happen already. I can't remember anyone having difficulty playing a free or sideline to someone behind him.

As I say though, this will not help the game one bit and is change for change sake.

It would be worth a trial to see how it works. Too often players are taking the easy and safe option of backward frees and it adds nothing to the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on July 20, 2018, 12:28:49 AM
There is such a scrutiny on entertainment now. Football was never attractive bar the odd clinker of a game. Only the top 2/3 sides, when they clashed, produced top quality skilful entertainment. The 80s were shit. The 90s produced some wars of attrition in Ulster but no AI final like the last few now. The 00s again when the top 2/3 met. Same as now.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on July 20, 2018, 11:28:19 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 20, 2018, 12:28:49 AM
There is such a scrutiny on entertainment now. Football was never attractive bar the odd clinker of a game. Only the top 2/3 sides, when they clashed, produced top quality skilful entertainment. The 80s were shit. The 90s produced some wars of attrition in Ulster but no AI final like the last few now. The 00s again when the top 2/3 met. Same as now.

Correct. People don't know they are born. Football has been better than it ever has been. Some people can't think for themselves and listen to Brolly et al.

I thought when I went a bit berserk on the shot clock idea people might have put some thought into new rules, but alas no. Still some crazy stupid ideas floating about on this thread.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on July 20, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 20, 2018, 11:28:19 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 20, 2018, 12:28:49 AM
There is such a scrutiny on entertainment now. Football was never attractive bar the odd clinker of a game. Only the top 2/3 sides, when they clashed, produced top quality skilful entertainment. The 80s were shit. The 90s produced some wars of attrition in Ulster but no AI final like the last few now. The 00s again when the top 2/3 met. Same as now.

Correct. People don't know they are born. Football has been better than it ever has been. Some people can't think for themselves and listen to Brolly et al.

I thought when I went a bit berserk on the shot clock idea people might have put some thought into new rules, but alas no. Still some crazy stupid ideas floating about on this thread.

Brilliant, just brilliant.

People who are bored out of their minds watching football, are only that way because they've no minds of their own.

What a condescending shit you are.

——-

Footballers technically might be on a different level now than in any time in history. That's called evolution.

Football as a sport needs to evolve in tandem.

——-

The backpass in soccer was outlawed 20 years ago. You still get shite soccer matches, and you always will. But spectators are no longer forced to watch a quarter of the match where every attack culminated in Hansen passing it back to Grobelaar, who then killed the clock. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. It was not a magic pill, but it does make for a better spectacle.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on July 20, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Why not make Gaelic football like horse racing and introduce a weight handicap system?

Each player on the better teams would be forced to carry a specially weighted vest to slow them down.

Division 4 teams would carry no weight.

Division 3 teams would carry a weight of 1kg.

Division 2 teams would carry a weight of 2 kg.

Dicision 1 teams would carry 4kg.

Then, to really even things out, Dublin players would each have to carry 10kg.

It works in horse racing, so why not in Gaelic football?!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Gaelic football has several converging crises :

-The tackle
-The rules post switch to possession game
-Attendances
-Linked to the spectacle and over exposure
-Too many half full matches in Croke Park which is not being used coherently
-Physical demands on players esp those who get through 4 qf rounds and not last 8
-Huge competitive gaps and not enough decent matches

I think an external review is necessary
None of the teachers there at the moment have the vision thing
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on July 20, 2018, 12:09:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 20, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Why not make Gaelic football like horse racing and introduce a weight handicap system?

Each player on the better teams would be forced to carry a specially weighted vest to slow them down.

Division 4 teams would carry no weight.

Division 3 teams would carry a weight of 1kg.

Division 2 teams would carry a weight of 2 kg.

Dicision 1 teams would carry 4kg.

Then, to really even things out, Dublin players would each have to carry 10kg.

It works in horse racing, so why not in Gaelic football?!

Some sense at last!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: joemamas on July 20, 2018, 02:03:30 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on July 20, 2018, 12:09:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 20, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Why not make Gaelic football like horse racing and introduce a weight handicap system?

Each player on the better teams would be forced to carry a specially weighted vest to slow them down.

Division 4 teams would carry no weight.

Division 3 teams would carry a weight of 1kg.

Division 2 teams would carry a weight of 2 kg.

Dicision 1 teams would carry 4kg.

Then, to really even things out, Dublin players would each have to carry 10kg.

It works in horse racing, so why not in Gaelic football?!

Some sense at last!

What about all the boys who go on the piss in the winter months and put on the annual 10lbs.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 20, 2018, 04:26:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Gaelic football has several converging crises :

-The tackle
-The rules post switch to possession game
-Attendances
-Linked to the spectacle and over exposure
-Too many half full matches in Croke Park which is not being used coherently
-Physical demands on players esp those who get through 4 qf rounds and not last 8
-Huge competitive gaps and not enough decent matches

I think an external review is necessary
None of the teachers there at the moment have the vision thing

I agree but it needs recently retired players and maybe even current players to look at it. I don't want to see older players who want the game to be played like when they played.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 04:45:31 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on July 20, 2018, 04:26:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Gaelic football has several converging crises :

-The tackle
-The rules post switch to possession game
-Attendances
-Linked to the spectacle and over exposure
-Too many half full matches in Croke Park which is not being used coherently
-Physical demands on players esp those who get through 4 qf rounds and not last 8
-Huge competitive gaps and not enough decent matches

I think an external review is necessary
None of the teachers there at the moment have the vision thing

I agree but it needs recently retired players and maybe even current players to look at it. I don't want to see older players who want the game to be played like when they played.
I think a wide range of inputs and a mandate for radical change are required.  Tweaks are not going to work
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tonto1888 on July 20, 2018, 08:16:04 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 20, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 20, 2018, 11:28:19 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 20, 2018, 12:28:49 AM
There is such a scrutiny on entertainment now. Football was never attractive bar the odd clinker of a game. Only the top 2/3 sides, when they clashed, produced top quality skilful entertainment. The 80s were shit. The 90s produced some wars of attrition in Ulster but no AI final like the last few now. The 00s again when the top 2/3 met. Same as now.

Correct. People don't know they are born. Football has been better than it ever has been. Some people can't think for themselves and listen to Brolly et al.

I thought when I went a bit berserk on the shot clock idea people might have put some thought into new rules, but alas no. Still some crazy stupid ideas floating about on this thread.

Brilliant, just brilliant.

People who are bored out of their minds watching football, are only that way because they've no minds of their own.

What a condescending shit you are.

——-

Footballers technically might be on a different level now than in any time in history. That's called evolution.

Football as a sport needs to evolve in tandem.

——-

The backpass in soccer was outlawed 20 years ago. You still get shite soccer matches, and you always will. But spectators are no longer forced to watch a quarter of the match where every attack culminated in Hansen passing it back to Grobelaar, who then killed the clock. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. It was not a magic pill, but it does make for a better spectacle.

The back pass wasn't outlawed just tweaked.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on July 21, 2018, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 20, 2018, 11:28:19 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 20, 2018, 12:28:49 AM
There is such a scrutiny on entertainment now. Football was never attractive bar the odd clinker of a game. Only the top 2/3 sides, when they clashed, produced top quality skilful entertainment. The 80s were shit. The 90s produced some wars of attrition in Ulster but no AI final like the last few now. The 00s again when the top 2/3 met. Same as now.

Correct. People don't know they are born. Football has been better than it ever has been. Some people can't think for themselves and listen to Brolly et al.

I thought when I went a bit berserk on the shot clock idea people might have put some thought into new rules, but alas no. Still some crazy stupid ideas floating about on this thread.

I don't know. The last to meeting between Mayo and Galway were the quietest matches I've been at in a long time. This years game you could hear the players shouting instruction on the pitch. It's kinda eerie when the people around you are on their phones and talking about some general news events.

My young fella (9) loves to play the game. He would spend an evening in the back garden practicing. But has no heed on the Intercounty game as a spectacle. In contrast he'd watch Liverpool and Ireland in Soccer! And loved the World Cup.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on July 21, 2018, 04:07:13 PM
That is true alright. Spectating has evolved. Tyrone's games in Ulster last year were eerie.

Unless it's two average sides with no real tactical nous, say like Roscommon and Armagh - or two excellent sides like Mayo and Dublin last year who can play any way you want - there are less 50/50s or men blindly lumping the ball up the field to a yahoooo from the crowd. That's because of possession football...which makes sense...every ball is crucial. Footballers are smarter, managers are smarter.

If the spectacle is more important, then a rule change is needed to keep that end happy.

Or we could bring in a bit of singing during the lull periods.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on July 21, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Quote from: ONeill on July 21, 2018, 04:07:13 PM
That is true alright. Spectating has evolved. Tyrone's games in Ulster last year were eerie.

Unless it's two average sides with no real tactical nous, say like Roscommon and Armagh - or two excellent sides like Mayo and Dublin last year who can play any way you want - there are less 50/50s or men blindly lumping the ball up the field to a yahoooo from the crowd. That's because of possession football...which makes sense...every ball is crucial. Footballers are smarter, managers are smarter.

If the spectacle is more important, then a rule change is needed to keep that end happy.

Or we could bring in a bit of singing during the lull periods.

You see it's the spectacle that draws in the kids. And kids are the future. What has happened to Gaelic football is like what has happened to Snooker. The Gung-ho attitude of Higgins was replaced by the thoughtful play of Steve Davis, then Hendry/Higgins and this led to the more boring spectacle Snooker is today! Bar the mad genius that is O'Sullivan.

That said my lad who does not watch - Plays and enjoys it!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 21, 2018, 05:01:47 PM
Interesting to note Aussie Rules is in a similar state of chassis re rule changes at the moment.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 21, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 21, 2018, 05:01:47 PM
Interesting to note Aussie Rules is in a similar state of chassis re rule changes at the moment.

Yeah but apparently the reaction from fans has being negative and want it left alone.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 21, 2018, 10:23:14 PM
Again today every time Kilkenny runs backwards he takes a minimum 6 steps, hopefully somewhere along the line a competent referee will penalise him.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mayo4Sam14 on July 21, 2018, 10:43:57 PM
Quote from: highorlow on July 16, 2018, 09:12:16 AM
QuoteThe problem with a shot clock is that an extra official therefore is required at every match. I'm not so sure any club would want another few thousand per year in referee fees.

The ref wears watchs I believe.

I see the paranoid Dub is on here having a go. This is not about Dublin.

The refs can barely keep up as it is
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CumminsCiderLarry on July 21, 2018, 10:47:30 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 21, 2018, 10:23:14 PM
Again today every time Kilkenny runs backwards he takes a minimum 6 steps, hopefully somewhere along the line a competent referee will penalise him.

Watch Paul Cribbin and Daniel Flynn for the steps tomorrow
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on July 22, 2018, 09:37:50 AM
started this
now after matches yesterday as well I believe 1or 2 minute shot clock in second half is now vital with a timekeeper like 'Ladies' women's matches (timekeeper only for County matches obviously).
The crowd could join in the countdown and hassle the keep ballers into doing something interesting. handpass makes keep ball so easy and tackle so ill-defined getting frees from  tackling is easy inhibiting response a bit. But (off topic) what the hell is going to be done to stop refs destroying matches rules are much easier to interpret than rugby which I know moves differently but so many games getting destroyed. So much for added fitness watching Coldrick wandering around yesterday
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 22, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
Maybe Dublin have being the problem all along. This game is brilliant.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: longballin on July 22, 2018, 02:35:14 PM
Two teams going at each otherbfull tilt great to see...
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 22, 2018, 02:40:43 PM
I think I've figured out why some high-scoring games bore me to tears and others have me on the edge of my seat.
You can have a high-scoring game which is full of slow build-up play, with a team going over and back on the 45m line before they find a gap and someone goes through and pops it over from the edge of the D.
Regardless of the end result, this is boring to watch.
It's like watching a pair of centres in rugby constantly bashing up the middle until they find a gap.
Whereas this game now is flowing up and down the field.
It has momentum.
People love to see a player kicking a score on the run following the charge of the light brigade up the field.
When the charge of the light brigade falters at the 45m line and becomes the sideways shuffle of the light brigade, people don't enjoy that, even if it does eventually result in a score.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tonto1888 on July 22, 2018, 02:43:23 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on July 21, 2018, 10:23:14 PM
Again today every time Kilkenny runs backwards he takes a minimum 6 steps, hopefully somewhere along the line a competent referee will penalise him.

Nearly every player does it
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 22, 2018, 02:55:25 PM
Interesting suggestion from Longford's Mickey Quinn.

https://twitter.com/mickeyq06/status/1021025700885778432 (https://twitter.com/mickeyq06/status/1021025700885778432)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on July 23, 2018, 03:27:02 PM
I see Colm Parkinson tweeting today about introducing an offensive mark into the game.
Given how well the mark from the kick-out has worked, would an offensive mark inside the 21 yard line be worth looking at?
It'd be some craic with the ball being hoofed in with the last kick of the game.
Incidentally, Parkinson's idea was prompted by Zach Tuohy's game-winner for Geelong at the weekend.

https://twitter.com/AFL/status/1020640729624870913 (https://twitter.com/AFL/status/1020640729624870913)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dinny Breen on August 08, 2018, 12:11:43 PM
Interesting rules in hockey -

-rolling subs (they have this in junior rugby too) works well and maintains high tempo
- auto pass - like a mark, you can play it to yourself and just play on, you could also restrict frees from outside the 45 i.e. not allowed score directly from, nothing more boring than watching a goalie trundle up 100m to take a free
-If physio enters field of play to treat a player, that player automatically leaves the field of play and can't return for 2 mins, would make that 3 in the football.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Denn Forever on August 08, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
Have the game played with Hurling refs. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 01:24:40 PM
https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296 (https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296)

Jim McGuinness: The way to change and improve Gaelic football is simple and it can be achieved by its custodians with the stroke of a pen. You simply change the rules to reintroduce the best qualities of the sport.

Behind the paywall so can't read it though.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on August 28, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 01:24:40 PM
https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296 (https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296)

Jim McGuinness: The way to change and improve Gaelic football is simple and it can be achieved by its custodians with the stroke of a pen. You simply change the rules to reintroduce the best qualities of the sport.

Behind the paywall so can't read it though.
If you cross the opponent's 65, you can't go back across it again
Must have 4 players inside opponents 65 at all times
2 points for scores outside the 45 (from play only)

Disagrees about limiting handpasses
Disagrees about more marks (too much of an advatange for the big forwards versus the Gooch/Canavan types
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 28, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 01:24:40 PM
https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296 (https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296)

Jim McGuinness: The way to change and improve Gaelic football is simple and it can be achieved by its custodians with the stroke of a pen. You simply change the rules to reintroduce the best qualities of the sport.

Behind the paywall so can't read it though.
If you cross the opponent's 65, you can't go back across it again
Must have 4 players inside opponents 65 at all times
2 points for scores outside the 45 (from play only)

Disagrees about limiting handpasses
Disagrees about more marks (too much of an advatange for the big forwards versus the Gooch/Canavan types

I like this idea.
In general I'm in favour of incentivising positive play, moreso than disincentivising negative play.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Maiden1 on August 28, 2018, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 28, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 01:24:40 PM
https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296 (https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1034342714937143296)

Jim McGuinness: The way to change and improve Gaelic football is simple and it can be achieved by its custodians with the stroke of a pen. You simply change the rules to reintroduce the best qualities of the sport.

Behind the paywall so can't read it though.
If you cross the opponent's 65, you can't go back across it again
Must have 4 players inside opponents 65 at all times
2 points for scores outside the 45 (from play only)

Disagrees about limiting handpasses
Disagrees about more marks (too much of an advatange for the big forwards versus the Gooch/Canavan types

I like this idea.
In general I'm in favour of incentivising positive play, moreso than disincentivising negative play.
4 players have to stay in own half would make a huge difference.  As long as the opposition also had to keep at least 4 people back in defense, otherwise if a team are a couple down going into injury time they could have all out 15 in attack and the other team have 4 players stuck at the half way line.  It would help a team attack as well to have 4 forwards when they they turned the ball over.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on August 28, 2018, 02:23:35 PM
Re Colm Parkinson and the offensive mark inside the 21 yard line, he's not the only one in favour of it.


I read an interesting article on the rte website there quoting Kieran McGeeney who seems to in favour of it too.

"McGeeney would like a loosening of restrictions around the tackle and agrees with his former team-mate O'Rourke that the offensive mark inside the '45 could help bring back the beloved kickpass"

not sure about it leading too much of an advantage for the big forwards versus the Gooch/Canavan types
small forwards do operate and flourish throughout the AFL

by the way if we had two refs you could probably keep track of counted hand passes, players in halves etc if you wanted.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0823/987141-the-battle-for-the-soul-of-gaelic-football/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0823/987141-the-battle-for-the-soul-of-gaelic-football/)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on August 28, 2018, 02:35:07 PM
Kieran Donaghy (on Parkinson's podcast) in favour of:

- Offensive mark

- Replacement of black card with free brought forward 50 yards. This includes not bothering to take name of player who committed the foul (only wastes time and allows defense to reorganise, plus the 50 yards is punishment enough). And if the cynical foul took place anywhere inside the 21, then it's a penalty.

Not sure about the offensive mark myself. I wouldn't be long getting sick of watching O'Gara making great catches, then kicking the ball a mile wide!

50 yard idea is from Aussie Rules. I haven't seen it in practice, but Donaghy was very keen on it. Sounds a bit far. Maybe 30 yards, with proviso that the free has to be taken out of the hands, to keep things moving.

It was definitely a good point he made that for a team defending a lead late on, it actual benefits them to receive cards as it slows the game down further.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 02:40:59 PM
Players will happily take black cards to close out a game.
They are deliberately trying to prevent the other team moving up the field into a scoring position.
If you punish these specific infringements by bringing the ball up for a set shot in a scoring position, it defeats the purpose of committing the foul in the first place.
Plus, the defending team now have to win their own re-start after the kick is taken.
I think a set-shot, off the ground, from the 45m line is the proportionate response to a cynical foul.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: TabClear on August 28, 2018, 03:12:40 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 28, 2018, 02:35:07 PM
Kieran Donaghy (on Parkinson's podcast) in favour of:

- Offensive mark

- Replacement of black card with free brought forward 50 yards. This includes not bothering to take name of player who committed the foul (only wastes time and allows defense to reorganise, plus the 50 yards is punishment enough). And if the cynical foul took place anywhere inside the 21, then it's a penalty.

Not sure about the offensive mark myself. I wouldn't be long getting sick of watching O'Gara making great catches, then kicking the ball a mile wide!

50 yard idea is from Aussie Rules. I haven't seen it in practice, but Donaghy was very keen on it. Sounds a bit far. Maybe 30 yards, with proviso that the free has to be taken out of the hands, to keep things moving.

It was definitely a good point he made that for a team defending a lead late on, it actual benefits them to receive cards as it slows the game down further.

Like this idea. Works really well in Aussie Rules albeit a bigger pitch. 50 yard penalties in AFL are typically for either late hits in a marking contest or holding a player who has marked/running across the "Mark"/kicking ball away after a free. Effectively penalises tactics that a team might use to slow down the team with the ball and so it encourages quick ball movement. No issue with the offensive mark either as it encourages quick ball into the forward.

I would be a fan  of extending the advantage rule as well so that the ref can whistle for a foul but the fouled player has the option of playing on. i.e. he can decide to fist pass, take a solo etc. This does not give the offending team time to get back in position etc after a cynical foul.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jayop on August 28, 2018, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on August 28, 2018, 02:23:12 PM
4 players have to stay in own half would make a huge difference.  As long as the opposition also had to keep at least 4 people back in defense, otherwise if a team are a couple down going into injury time they could have all out 15 in attack and the other team have 4 players stuck at the half way line.  It would help a team attack as well to have 4 forwards when they they turned the ball over.

I disagree with this. Let teams attack with 15 and leave 4 men free if they want to take that gamble. Would also make it easier to ref if all he has to mind is 8 players over 16 to keep in the right area. If you have 4 designated forwards have them wear a bib or something to designate they're one of the players to stay forward. The manager can rotate these bibs during a break of play.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on August 28, 2018, 04:37:43 PM
Quote from: Jayop on August 28, 2018, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on August 28, 2018, 02:23:12 PM
4 players have to stay in own half would make a huge difference.  As long as the opposition also had to keep at least 4 people back in defense, otherwise if a team are a couple down going into injury time they could have all out 15 in attack and the other team have 4 players stuck at the half way line.  It would help a team attack as well to have 4 forwards when they they turned the ball over.

I disagree with this. Let teams attack with 15 and leave 4 men free if they want to take that gamble. Would also make it easier to ref if all he has to mind is 8 players over 16 to keep in the right area. If you have 4 designated forwards have them wear a bib or something to designate they're one of the players to stay forward. The manager can rotate these bibs during a break of play.
Agree with that jayop. Would be good craic if a team left 2 or 3 marking 4, although would be a rare a team would be brave enough.

Some class of illumunious armband for the 4 designated attackers. Something a bit bigger than the captain's armband in soccer.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jayop on August 28, 2018, 04:39:26 PM
Yep, an armband or something that would be easy to take off and hand to another player if they'removing into the forwards would make it pure easy to see.

I've no problem with a team chasing a game going balls out and leaving 4 v 2 at the back. In fact I'd expect it to happen most games near the end of there's a team a few points behind. You're as well being beat by 5 as by 2.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on August 28, 2018, 06:11:42 PM
This is getting very complicated Chinese Jimmy McGuinness's 'ideas'
would make the game impossible to ref (think Junior B league game in February)
Suggestions:
1 A 2 min shot-clock 2nd half (1 min final added time and ET) guided by special stopwatch
( as well as score and wide kick from outside 45 landing/ touched in large rectangle counts as a shot.) with technology we can design a special GAA stopwatch plus plus to help refs with shot clocks etc)
2 Ban handpass only closed fist pass (as in 1960s) and kick pass (fist less reliable so encourages kick - hurling is a great game cos ball is available not buried in someone's gut all changes must encourage ball availability)
3 Mark for all frees sidelines and kickouts
4 All frees for personal fouls (inc. all black & red offences that includes shepherding/ 3rd man tackling in both offence and defence and steps holding time rules which must be more strictly enforced I believe) from opponent's 20m line
5 Move all kick-outs back to small rectangle ( scare keepers into longer kick-outs)
6 Timekeeper for County matches and County Champ finals. (Works well in 'ladies' football relieves refs of some duties THAT IS ESSENTIAL
Lots to learn from women's game surpasses men's game in so many ways now and ovetaling it fast )

Banning backpassing impossible to enforce in such bog (freudian slip meant big) pitches and 30 players OK for small basketball
We have generally bad refs often spineless linesmen and
Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil umpires. All these folk need rules and technology where feasible to take max. duties away from them and I believe what I have here would help a lot and free up football into a much more open game
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on August 28, 2018, 06:21:40 PM
4 20m free rule to apply for 2nd half on
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: lenny on August 28, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 02:40:59 PM
Players will happily take black cards to close out a game.
They are deliberately trying to prevent the other team moving up the field into a scoring position.
If you punish these specific infringements by bringing the ball up for a set shot in a scoring position, it defeats the purpose of committing the foul in the first place.
Plus, the defending team now have to win their own re-start after the kick is taken.
I think a set-shot, off the ground, from the 45m line is the proportionate response to a cynical foul.

From the 13m or 20m line would be a better deterrent against cynical play. Penalty if it denies a goal scoring chance. Allowing more robust tackles would give defenders a chance to dispossess forwards without requiring the help of 3 or 4 teammates. Defining the tackle and improving it could be a big help in improving the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on August 28, 2018, 09:13:07 PM
Seeing as football is now a total possession game is it time for some firm of tackle on the man who must release the ball then?
I know it " smacks of other codes" as the old Gaels used to say.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on August 28, 2018, 10:14:19 PM
Not a fan of the offensive mark. It's grand if it's a raking 50 hard kickpass but what if its a piddly 20 yard chip to an unmarked player 40m out? Should he derserve a handy free for that?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on August 28, 2018, 11:42:47 PM
Quote from: cjx on August 28, 2018, 06:21:40 PM
4 20m free rule to apply for 2nd half on

All 20m free apply from 50th min on inc ET might be best and of course all penalty rules apply as is.


Also ET not new game which is nonsence rewarding bad behaviour.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on August 29, 2018, 12:03:08 AM
And a mark is a kick of at least 32m ( 45-13) that is caught cleanly. I believe?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on August 29, 2018, 09:02:41 AM
Quote from: lenny on August 28, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 28, 2018, 02:40:59 PM
Players will happily take black cards to close out a game.
They are deliberately trying to prevent the other team moving up the field into a scoring position.
If you punish these specific infringements by bringing the ball up for a set shot in a scoring position, it defeats the purpose of committing the foul in the first place.
Plus, the defending team now have to win their own re-start after the kick is taken.
I think a set-shot, off the ground, from the 45m line is the proportionate response to a cynical foul.

From the 13m or 20m line would be a better deterrent against cynical play. Penalty if it denies a goal scoring chance. Allowing more robust tackles would give defenders a chance to dispossess forwards without requiring the help of 3 or 4 teammates. Defining the tackle and improving it could be a big help in improving the game.

This. Currently without a defined tackle the cleanest* way is to surround the forward and force him to over carry. As this is difficult to achieve over the size of a pitch we see Managers compressing play into an area where this sort of "tackling" will be achievable.
*By cleanest I mean the least open to a referees interpretation.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on August 29, 2018, 09:55:13 AM
Quote from: TabClear on August 28, 2018, 03:12:40 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 28, 2018, 02:35:07 PM
Kieran Donaghy (on Parkinson's podcast) in favour of:

- Offensive mark

- Replacement of black card with free brought forward 50 yards. This includes not bothering to take name of player who committed the foul (only wastes time and allows defense to reorganise, plus the 50 yards is punishment enough). And if the cynical foul took place anywhere inside the 21, then it's a penalty.

Not sure about the offensive mark myself. I wouldn't be long getting sick of watching O'Gara making great catches, then kicking the ball a mile wide!

50 yard idea is from Aussie Rules. I haven't seen it in practice, but Donaghy was very keen on it. Sounds a bit far. Maybe 30 yards, with proviso that the free has to be taken out of the hands, to keep things moving.

It was definitely a good point he made that for a team defending a lead late on, it actual benefits them to receive cards as it slows the game down further.

Like this idea. Works really well in Aussie Rules albeit a bigger pitch. 50 yard penalties in AFL are typically for either late hits in a marking contest or holding a player who has marked/running across the "Mark"/kicking ball away after a free. Effectively penalises tactics that a team might use to slow down the team with the ball and so it encourages quick ball movement. No issue with the offensive mark either as it encourages quick ball into the forward.

I would be a fan  of extending the advantage rule as well so that the ref can whistle for a foul but the fouled player has the option of playing on. i.e. he can decide to fist pass, take a solo etc. This does not give the offending team time to get back in position etc after a cynical foul.

Of all the hair-brained ideas i have heard floated regarding rule change, this is by far the best one and I would be happy enough to have it trialed.

Get rid of the black card.
For a 'cynical' foul - deliberate bull down, third man tackle etc the referee awards a free 50 yards up the pitch. (i would like to see that tried out to see if 50 yards is too far on a Gaelic pitch)
I would also add things like holding on to the ball /slowing up the oppositions free kick and kicking the ball off the tee and all that nonsense to the offenses punishable like this.

all the shot clock/ limiting hand passes suggestions are counter productive. if we want to encourage attacking play, we shouldn't be putting restrictions of attacking play. we need to either penalise defensive play or incentivise attacking play
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Christmas Lights on August 29, 2018, 09:58:33 AM
Quote from: cjx on August 29, 2018, 12:03:08 AM
And a mark is a kick of at least 32m ( 45-13) that is caught cleanly. I believe?

Just fcuk off mate.  If you dont like the game, go watch Aussie Rules or NFL or something as thats what you seem to prefer.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on August 29, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Very intelligent contribution ::)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Kickham csc on August 29, 2018, 12:58:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Very intelligent contribution ::)
Leave the sport alone.
Has the quality of tackling improved... Yes
Have skill levels improved...Yes (look at the corner backs on the great Kerry teams, kick and catch solo)
Has game scores increased...yes
Has fitness levels improved....yes
Has the ability of forwards to take on backs improved...Yes (if defending has improved, this leads to it being harder to take a man on..whih results in greater skill levels to take a man on
Has the game got faster...Yes (less time on the ball)
Has goalkeeper play improved....Yes
Has the game become more sophisticated...Yes offensive and defensive, Kickout strategies now common

Have pundits become more negative........YESSSSSSSSSSSS

For every action there is a reaction, for every defensive period in time, a positive attacking period will follow

Just let it be
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on August 29, 2018, 02:56:27 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on August 29, 2018, 12:58:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Very intelligent contribution ::)
Leave the sport alone.
Has the quality of tackling improved... Yes
Have skill levels improved...Yes (look at the corner backs on the great Kerry teams, kick and catch solo)
Has game scores increased...yes
Has fitness levels improved....yes
Has the ability of forwards to take on backs improved...Yes (if defending has improved, this leads to it being harder to take a man on..whih results in greater skill levels to take a man on
Has the game got faster...Yes (less time on the ball)
Has goalkeeper play improved....Yes
Has the game become more sophisticated...Yes offensive and defensive, Kickout strategies now common

Have pundits become more negative........YESSSSSSSSSSSS

For every action there is a reaction, for every defensive period in time, a positive attacking period will follow

Just let it be

Yoy forgot to ask one important question

Has the type of football being played led to less entertainment and therefore lower attendances? ............. YESSSSSSS
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 29, 2018, 03:11:40 PM
Here's me thinking I was bored stupid watching football nowadays.
Turns out the pundits have just tricked me into thinking most games are like watching paint dry.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on August 30, 2018, 03:00:38 AM
Incentivising attacking play will always incentivise defensive play along side it. The two are relatively inseparable.

If you make goals worth 4 points teams will try harder to stop teams scoring them, so the difficultly in scoring a goal increases proportionately to the reward for scoring one.

If you make a catch from a 40m kick pass worthy of a mark then you incentivise teams to prevent 40m passes being either kicked or caught.

The evidence exists before your eyes. Despite the midfield mark we have not seen a remarkable increase in the proportion of long kick outs. More than ever the top teams look to invent strategies to allow them to kick to unmarked men. The option to go long to a competitive midfield battle is the last one that many keepers take having exhausted any safe short options. The percentage of kick outs that are uncontested is still as high as ever despite the intro of the rule.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on August 30, 2018, 06:04:42 AM
Not sure how this would go down with everyone and apologies if it was mentioned before.

If a rule was introduced that the ball had to go past the 45m line on the kickout.

As you say Trileacman "The option to go long to a competitive midfield battle is the last one that many keepers take having exhausted any safe short options." Agree with you that the keeper would take the more certain/higher percentage to kick short.

Would a competitive midfield battle be more of a spectacle to watch for audiences I am not sure.

this rule was introduced into the Int Rules in 2014.


Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on August 30, 2018, 09:22:04 AM
Thats fine for he elite of the 2 Sports but your Junior B or u 14 on a windy day?
Must go to a few games wherever Kickham lives!!!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 09:44:56 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on August 30, 2018, 06:04:42 AM
Not sure how this would go down with everyone and apologies if it was mentioned before.

If a rule was introduced that the ball had to go past the 45m line on the kickout.

As you say Trileacman "The option to go long to a competitive midfield battle is the last one that many keepers take having exhausted any safe short options." Agree with you that the keeper would take the more certain/higher percentage to kick short.

Would a competitive midfield battle be more of a spectacle to watch for audiences I am not sure.

this rule was introduced into the Int Rules in 2014.

It's a no-brainer really and it doesn't have to apply to club football either.
Anything to stop the keeper kicking the ball 15 yards to his corner back is worth a go in my view.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on August 30, 2018, 10:13:42 AM
What if a keeper is kicking into a gale force wind and can't beyond the 21, never mind the 50 yard line?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 10:16:25 AM
At inter-county level?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on August 30, 2018, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 30, 2018, 10:13:42 AM
What if a keeper is kicking into a gale force wind and can't beyond the 21, never mind the 50 yard line?
Get a big lad in the full back line to kick the ball out instead
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 10:27:45 AM
I'd imagine most keepers would secretly love a rule that requires them to balloon the ball out to midfield.
At the moment you'd want a PhD in Trigonometry to figure out the kick-out strategy.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on August 30, 2018, 10:30:06 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 09:44:56 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on August 30, 2018, 06:04:42 AM
Not sure how this would go down with everyone and apologies if it was mentioned before.

If a rule was introduced that the ball had to go past the 45m line on the kickout.

As you say Trileacman "The option to go long to a competitive midfield battle is the last one that many keepers take having exhausted any safe short options." Agree with you that the keeper would take the more certain/higher percentage to kick short.

Would a competitive midfield battle be more of a spectacle to watch for audiences I am not sure.

this rule was introduced into the Int Rules in 2014.

It's a no-brainer really and it doesn't have to apply to club football either.
Anything to stop the keeper kicking the ball 15 yards to his corner back is worth a go in my view.
If the distance is an issue, we can just add another line to the pitch at 30m or whatever, it wouldnt be that hard to implement.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on August 30, 2018, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 10:16:25 AM
At inter-county level?

The rules apply to all levels. Keepers could struggle hitting the 50 in high winds. I've seen it happen.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 10:48:00 AM
Why do the rules have to apply to all levels?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on August 30, 2018, 10:51:53 AM
Because you can't be having elites with different rules?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 10:54:06 AM
Hawkeye.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on August 30, 2018, 12:01:23 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 09:44:56 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on August 30, 2018, 06:04:42 AM
Not sure how this would go down with everyone and apologies if it was mentioned before.

If a rule was introduced that the ball had to go past the 45m line on the kickout.

As you say Trileacman "The option to go long to a competitive midfield battle is the last one that many keepers take having exhausted any safe short options." Agree with you that the keeper would take the more certain/higher percentage to kick short.

Would a competitive midfield battle be more of a spectacle to watch for audiences I am not sure.

this rule was introduced into the Int Rules in 2014.

It's a no-brainer really and it doesn't have to apply to club football either.
Anything to stop the keeper kicking the ball 15 yards to his corner back is worth a go in my view.
But that would be a rule to benefit a defensive team to the detriment of the attacking team.

If you don't want the keeper to pass to the corner back, then all you have to do is make the corner forward mark him!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 12:38:18 PM
I'll refer you to my earlier suite of rule changes which stipulated that players must return to their 'starting' positions for re-starts, i.e. 3 backs & 3 forwards on the 45m line and 3 backs & 3 forwards on the 20m line.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on August 30, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
Why not throw the ball in to the 4 midfielders after every score and wide?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on August 30, 2018, 12:50:31 PM
This suggestion would encourage teams to be more defensive.

If the 6 forwards know that if they stand anywhere between the 21 and the 45 for the kickout, the ball is going to sail over their heads what is the point of them being there.

This rule would ensure that EVERY team puts 15 on their own side of the opposition 45 for opposition kick outs. So in effect, if a team were to win their own kickout they'd be faced with 15 behind the ball straight away.

I'm not in favour of this rule at all, but the only way it could possibly work would be if another rule was also brought in which limited the number of players a team could have in certain areas of the pitch for kickouts. I.e. the 6 forwards would be forced to stay in position for kickouts.
So it starts getting very messy!

In any event, if a rule was brought in to limited the number of players in certain areas for kickouts (i.e. keeping the 6 forwards in position) I think it would encourage most teams to kick long anyway as the short options would be closed off and therefore there would be no need for a rule forcing keepers to kick long.

Also, if keepers were forced to kick long, it would reduce the impact of a sending off. At the moment, one of the biggest advantages of having an extra man is that it is fairly easy to retain possession from your own kickout. I don't think it is a good idea to be reducing the benefit of having an extra man. It is up to the opposition to make sure they keep 15 on the pitch.


Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on August 30, 2018, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 12:38:18 PM
I'll refer you to my earlier suite of rule changes which stipulated that players must return to their 'starting' positions for re-starts, i.e. 3 backs & 3 forwards on the 45m line and 3 backs & 3 forwards on the 20m line.

Sorry Jinxy, I had posted my reply before I saw this.

This suggestion has merit, but I don't think we would need to 'force' keepers to kick long if the above rule was brought in. I think it would happen naturally.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 12:54:16 PM
That's a good point actually.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on August 30, 2018, 01:32:56 PM
Good points been made.

This rule would ensure that EVERY team puts 15 on their own side of the opposition 45 for opposition kick outs. So in effect, if a team were to win their own kickout they'd be faced with 15 behind the ball straight away.

Been watching the forced 45m kickout in Australia vs Ireland after it was introduced in 2015 series, trying to figure it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-FkMx96CY

interestingly rossfan ball is throw up to 4 midfielders after goals scored.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on August 30, 2018, 06:42:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2018, 10:48:00 AM
Why do the rules have to apply to all levels?

County players are also club players. Well, sometimes.

Why would you have a rule for county and another rule for club?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on September 04, 2018, 08:21:51 AM
More support for the offensive mark

Comer calls for 'offensive mark'

Galway captain Damien Comer believes the introduction of an 'offensive mark' would improve Gaelic football.

His suggestion was supported by Kildare manager Cian O'Neill

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/289820 (http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/289820)

article on RTE website put up on Sunday.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0901/990947-could-gaelic-football-benefit-from-an-offensive-mark/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0901/990947-could-gaelic-football-benefit-from-an-offensive-mark/)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on September 04, 2018, 09:16:47 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on September 04, 2018, 08:21:51 AM
More support for the offensive mark

Comer calls for 'offensive mark'

Galway captain Damien Comer believes the introduction of an 'offensive mark' would improve Gaelic football.

His suggestion was supported by Kildare manager Cian O'Neill

http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/289820 (http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/289820)

article on RTE website put up on Sunday.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0901/990947-could-gaelic-football-benefit-from-an-offensive-mark/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0901/990947-could-gaelic-football-benefit-from-an-offensive-mark/)
So a big ball winning Full forward and a manager whose best player is a big ball winning Full forward supports the offensive mark? Big surpirse there.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 04, 2018, 10:05:38 AM
Imagine watching teams driving long balls into their FF line.
The horror.
People are voting with their feet.
They don't want to watch this tiki-taka stuff.
They don't want to watch basketball.
They want the beautiful chaos of two men going full pelt for a ball and let the better man win.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 09:53:01 PM
All the giving out about Dublin why wouldn't any team hold the ball when opposition show no ambition.



https://mobile.twitter.com/darrellcoyles/status/1038867787035422720/video/1

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
God, that's depressing.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 10:03:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
God, that's depressing.

Yes it is, from Magherafelts perspective
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 10:06:03 PM
From everyone's perspective.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: lenny on September 09, 2018, 10:09:17 PM
Quote from: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 10:03:03 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
God, that's depressing.

Yes it is, from Magherafelts perspective

It certainly was. Depressing and frustrating.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 09, 2018, 10:09:44 PM
Again, there are no rule changes needed. What will stop this is teams realising it isn't helping them.

And it didn't help Magherafelt, given they lost with a final score of 0-5.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 10:15:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 10:06:03 PM
From everyone's perspective.

There is no reason for slaghtneil to push on, they are winning, why risk losing the ball trying for another score when Magherafelt have everyone back to prevent that. You hold the ball, get them to push up and then with more space your percentages of getting a score is alot better. I actually think the more we see this stuff the better because it will surely end up with teams having to push up and combat it the more successful it is. Just to clarify, it does look horrible and I hate it but equally respect it
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Blowitupref on September 09, 2018, 11:07:30 PM
Quote from: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 10:15:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 10:06:03 PM
From everyone's perspective.

There is no reason for slaghtneil to push on, they are winning, why risk losing the ball trying for another score when Magherafelt have everyone back to prevent that. You hold the ball, get them to push up and then with more space your percentages of getting a score is alot better. I actually think the more we see this stuff the better because it will surely end up with teams having to push up and combat it the more successful it is. Just to clarify, it does look horrible and I hate it but equally respect it

Would kind of understand it if Slaughtneil was one score ahead but was there a need to do that when the margin was 5 points with time running out?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: bannside on September 09, 2018, 11:43:19 PM
Going by that clip it was just before the half-time whistle. I'd say the three or four millionaires around Magherafelt who go out to source a manager to deliver a much coveted first John Mc Laughlin Derry senior title will be wondering tonight just how wise their investment was.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Billy Magoo on September 10, 2018, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on September 09, 2018, 11:07:30 PM
Quote from: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 10:15:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 10:06:03 PM
From everyone's perspective.

There is no reason for slaghtneil to push on, they are winning, why risk losing the ball trying for another score when Magherafelt have everyone back to prevent that. You hold the ball, get them to push up and then with more space your percentages of getting a score is alot better. I actually think the more we see this stuff the better because it will surely end up with teams having to push up and combat it the more successful it is. Just to clarify, it does look horrible and I hate it but equally respect it

Would kind of understand it if Slaughtneil was one score ahead but was there a need to do that when the margin was 5 points with time running out?

Was 04- to 0-3 at this point just before Half Time. Mfelt playing with the wind opted not to pressure the ball. We won 10-5 in the end with Mfelt scoring a solitary point from play.
We played them in the league earlier in the year and they did exactly the same. 4 points down at half time and at the start of the second have we had possession for 10 odd minutes. Our boys were 100% right to hold possession.  We weren't chasing the game
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on September 10, 2018, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

Each team has 15, the area of the pitch this happens shouldn't mean anyone doing sprints up and back, it should be the forwards responsibility to push further up the field. Btw I think it's a very legitimate tactic as bad as it looks, if a team puts themselves into a position to be able to it then why not, either the other team doesn't push up and you can see out the game easily enough or they do push up and you are creating space and increasing the likelihood of getting a score. I think 99% of people would rather a more traditional 15 on 15 game instead of this packed defences game we have, as admiral a solid defence is in the game. I actually think no teams have started to work on this in terms of getting the ball back and the more it's used and better teams are at it, it will eventually end up where teams do come up with ways to combat it
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 10:35:43 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

You'll still have the same problem though.
Say Tyrone are playing Dublin, and Dublin have a lead.
Dublin have the ball in their own half and have even less of an incentive to go forward as they know they won't be able to come back.
So, instead of playing keep ball across the HB line or midfield, they now use their entire defensive half to play keep ball.
If Tyrone commit numbers to put pressure on Dublin in their own half, it will leave acres of space in their own defence so that they are now vulnerable to attack.
Which is where we are now.
Teams will be even more strategic about when and how they attack.
It will kill stone dead the attacking wing-back charging up the field as he is banjaxed once he gets isolated.
It'll end up like a game of bulldog with the two teams lined up in their own half.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 10:55:35 AM
See I'm not sure jinxy.

Of course teams who want to play keep ball will be more inclined not to leave their own half, but it would only require 6-8 opponents to push up to make 90m x 70m seem like a very small space. The most nullifying thing about Dublin v Donegal this year wasn't that Dublin played keep ball, it was that when Donegal pushesd then across the half way point, every time Kilkenny got the ball, he ran away from goal, and kicked it deep to restart their manoeuvres from way inside their own half.

Kilkenny did this because it's where there was 60 yards of clear space to kick a ball into. It's ultimate safety first. Take away that option from him, and we have something closer to football again.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on September 10, 2018, 10:57:08 AM
Quote from: tippabu on September 10, 2018, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

Each team has 15, the area of the pitch this happens shouldn't mean anyone doing sprints up and back, it should be the forwards responsibility to push further up the field. Btw I think it's a very legitimate tactic as bad as it looks, if a team puts themselves into a position to be able to it then why not, either the other team doesn't push up and you can see out the game easily enough or they do push up and you are creating space and increasing the likelihood of getting a score. I think 99% of people would rather a more traditional 15 on 15 game instead of this packed defences game we have, as admiral a solid defence is in the game. I actually think no teams have started to work on this in terms of getting the ball back and the more it's used and better teams are at it, it will eventually end up where teams do come up with ways to combat it

This annoys me as it's complete bollocks. Akin to the ould lads on the Sunday game saying teams need to "push up" to get the ball back. The team in possession will always have a man extra as their keeper is always unmarked. So realistically it's 7 players with the ball keeping it off 6 players without, any skilled team will hold onto that indefinitely.

Add to the numerical advantage the fact that the steps rule has been abolished in the minds of referees and it means 6 players have to somehow get close to one of the 7 players with the ball and then execute a perfectly timed tackle against a gym-honed defender who has been given indefinite licence to run with the ball hugged to his chest.

The team in possession will always have a numerical advantage at the back unless teams start getting their keeper to mark the opposition keeper.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:02:09 AM
I know I sound like a broken record, but the 'keep-ball' approach is largely facilitated by the ability to take short kick-outs to your corner backs.
Introduce a contested restart, i.e. kicks must travel beyond 45m line, and it will limit the ability of a team defending a lead to be 'defensive' and encourage the team chasing a lead to be 'offensive'.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 legal would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: trileacman on September 10, 2018, 10:57:08 AM
Quote from: tippabu on September 10, 2018, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

Each team has 15, the area of the pitch this happens shouldn't mean anyone doing sprints up and back, it should be the forwards responsibility to push further up the field. Btw I think it's a very legitimate tactic as bad as it looks, if a team puts themselves into a position to be able to it then why not, either the other team doesn't push up and you can see out the game easily enough or they do push up and you are creating space and increasing the likelihood of getting a score. I think 99% of people would rather a more traditional 15 on 15 game instead of this packed defences game we have, as admiral a solid defence is in the game. I actually think no teams have started to work on this in terms of getting the ball back and the more it's used and better teams are at it, it will eventually end up where teams do come up with ways to combat it

This annoys me as it's complete bollocks. Akin to the ould lads on the Sunday game saying teams need to "push up" to get the ball back. The team in possession will always have a man extra as their keeper is always unmarked. So realistically it's 7 players with the ball keeping it off 6 players without, any skilled team will hold onto that indefinitely.

Add to the numerical advantage the fact that the steps rule has been abolished in the minds of referees and it means 6 players have to somehow get close to one of the 7 players with the ball and then execute a perfectly timed tackle against a gym-honed defender who has been given indefinite licence to run with the ball hugged to his chest.

The team in possession will always have a numerical advantage at the back unless teams start getting their keeper to mark the opposition keeper.
Simple. Ban backpasses to the goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 11:12:03 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:02:09 AM
I know I sound like a broken record, but the 'keep-ball' approach is largely facilitated by the ability to take short kick-outs to your corner backs.
Introduce a contested restart, i.e. kicks must travel beyond 45m line, and it will limit the ability of a team defending a lead to be 'defensive' and encourage the team chasing a lead to be 'offensive'.

No, can't agree here. The problem isn't kickouts. The problem is that it is too easy for a team to protect a lead by keeping the ball for several minutes, effectively uncontested. It's now a defined tactic. Restarts provide an opportunity for it to happen, but so does any period of open playz
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.

I agree fully. It would seismically change Gaelic Games forever, but would make the games immeasurably easier to understand and officiate.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:24:18 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.
Association football has a clearly defined tackle, yet there is often confusion and controversy over what is and isn't a foul. Same in rugby.

Hurling has it too.

Gaelic football is far from unique in having controversy over decisions, because decisions have to be made in real time.

That doesn't mean that we don't know what is and isn't a fair tackle under the rules.

An Aussie Rules type tackle would completely change the character of the game. You could say bye bye to points like Diarmuid Connolly's in last year's All-Ireland final, because they wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: RedHand88 on September 10, 2018, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:02:09 AM
I know I sound like a broken record, but the 'keep-ball' approach is largely facilitated by the ability to take short kick-outs to your corner backs.
Introduce a contested restart, i.e. kicks must travel beyond 45m line, and it will limit the ability of a team defending a lead to be 'defensive' and encourage the team chasing a lead to be 'offensive'.

It's an honourable idea, but the problem is that many club keepers, especially at junior level, would struggle to kick the ball past the 45 off the ground, or at least to find a man accurately beyond it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Orchard park on September 10, 2018, 11:29:02 AM
What about a windy day at club level ?

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on September 10, 2018, 11:32:36 AM
Quote from: westbound on August 30, 2018, 12:50:31 PM
This suggestion would encourage teams to be more defensive.

If the 6 forwards know that if they stand anywhere between the 21 and the 45 for the kickout, the ball is going to sail over their heads what is the point of them being there.

This rule would ensure that EVERY team puts 15 on their own side of the opposition 45 for opposition kick outs. So in effect, if a team were to win their own kickout they'd be faced with 15 behind the ball straight away.

I'm not in favour of this rule at all, but the only way it could possibly work would be if another rule was also brought in which limited the number of players a team could have in certain areas of the pitch for kickouts. I.e. the 6 forwards would be forced to stay in position for kickouts.
So it starts getting very messy!

In any event, if a rule was brought in to limited the number of players in certain areas for kickouts (i.e. keeping the 6 forwards in position) I think it would encourage most teams to kick long anyway as the short options would be closed off and therefore there would be no need for a rule forcing keepers to kick long.

Also, if keepers were forced to kick long, it would reduce the impact of a sending off. At the moment, one of the biggest advantages of having an extra man is that it is fairly easy to retain possession from your own kickout. I don't think it is a good idea to be reducing the benefit of having an extra man. It is up to the opposition to make sure they keep 15 on the pitch.

I posted this a few pages back
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:43:43 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 10, 2018, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:02:09 AM
I know I sound like a broken record, but the 'keep-ball' approach is largely facilitated by the ability to take short kick-outs to your corner backs.
Introduce a contested restart, i.e. kicks must travel beyond 45m line, and it will limit the ability of a team defending a lead to be 'defensive' and encourage the team chasing a lead to be 'offensive'.

It's an honourable idea, but the problem is that many club keepers, especially at junior level, would struggle to kick the ball past the 45 off the ground, or at least to find a man accurately beyond it.

Wouldn't apply to club level.
Club football is a different beast.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Manning18 on September 10, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
This is incredibly simple imo. The game is crap because it's too easy to retain possession. Teams won't push up because there's no point, they wont be able to turn the ball over.

Bring the handpass back to close fist. Much harder to to get a closed fist handpass off while being tackled than an open hand. Harder to keep it accurate also. You'll soon see teams pressure high up when turnovers are happening regularly.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 12:53:25 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on September 10, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
This is incredibly simple imo. The game is crap because it's too easy to retain possession. Teams won't push up because there's no point, they wont be able to turn the ball over.

Bring the handpass back to close fist. Much harder to to get a closed fist handpass off while being tackled than an open hand. Harder to keep it accurate also. You'll soon see teams pressure high up when turnovers are happening regularly.

I agree with you there.
Any rule change I've suggested is designed to reintroduce the idea of a contest for possession.
That's what people want to see.
Some people here seem to be of the view that the entertainment value doesn't matter, it's all about technical ability, efficiency, playing smart etc.
They need to appreciate that a lot of people are watching the game out of habit now, i.e. this is what you do during the summer, you watch the football.
They know they're not going to enjoy it.
If we sit on our hands and do nothing, pretty soon people will get out of the habit of going to games for definite but they'll also eventually lose interest in even watching on TV.
I know that process has already started for me and I've played and watched gaelic football most of my life.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on September 10, 2018, 01:01:16 PM

Are we watching the death of Gaelic Football? Offtheball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSLHP23qJpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSLHP23qJpI)

Interesting discussion on rule changes, handpasses etc
worth watching!

bit of a reference on poorly defined tackle - the tackle how players could/would give away a free easily tackle and prefer not engage forward at approx 10 mins in.

Westbound on your suggestion, I would be interested in your opinion (re 15 men behind the ball) on why it did not happen
in the international rules 2015 game (link posted earlier), do you think because there was an Australian
Rules tackle effect in operation throughout the game?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on September 10, 2018, 01:03:11 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.
Allowing that sort of tackle will completely eliminate players taking their man on as the risk of losing the baall is too great, That in turn will place more emphasis on developing athletes who can play no contact keep ball.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on September 10, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
I agree it's too easy to retain possession.

Thinking outside the box a little here (and I only thought of this 5 minutes ago so I haven't really thought it through!) but what about if a team were only allowed a limited number of handpasses (say 3?) before getting the ball out of their own half. They could kick as often as they want but if the team has had 3 handpasses then they cannot handpass again until the ball goes into the opponents half. Once inside the opponents half, I'd have no restriction on the number of hand passes.

It's a lot more difficult to keep possession if you are being forced to kick it rather than hand-passing it all the time.

To follow this rule through, I'd suggest no restriction with a team going back over the half way line to go back into their own half, but they still wouldn't be allowed hand pass the ball in their own half.
If a team is good enough to retain possession by kicking the ball then fair play to them!


Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 01:06:56 PM
Lads, the tackle is the least of our worries.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on September 10, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
Quote from: CJ2017 on September 10, 2018, 01:01:16 PM

Are we watching the death of Gaelic Football? Offtheball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSLHP23qJpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSLHP23qJpI)

Interesting discussion on rule changes, handpasses etc
worth watching!

bit of a reference on poorly defined tackle - the tackle how players could/would give away a free easily tackle and prefer not engage forward at approx 10 mins in.

Westbound on your suggestion, I would be interested in your opinion (re 15 men behind the ball) on why it did not happen
in the international rules 2015 game (link posted earlier), do you think because there was an Australian
Rules tackle effect in operation throughout the game?


Honestly, I didn't watch that game at the time, and I had a quick look at the link you posted so I can't say I'm overly well informed on that particular game. However, firstly I thought (from the brief look I had at the link) that teams did appear to put a lot of men behind the ball for the kickouts?

But secondly, there  are probably 2 reasons why it wasn't 15men behind the ball on the kick out.
1 - It's not in the 'culture' of the aussie rules game to have men behind the ball playing defensively and
2- the mark is probably the reason for this as if a midfielder wins the ball from a kickout, if he has no forwards in place he can't punt if forward to win a mark in front of goal. Therefore it makes sense to leave some forwards in advanced positions for opposing teams kickouts even if you know that the ball will travel out past the 45.

I don't think the tackle was the reason, although I do think that the tackle could be effect in getting teams to push up from open play, knowing that there is a greater chance of winning the ball back.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on September 10, 2018, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 01:06:56 PM
Lads, the tackle is the least of our worries.

Jinxy the AFL style tackle could be useful in encouraging teams to push up on opponents.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the aussies rules tackle in our game, but it could certainly have a positive effect from the point of view of getting teams to push up.

But perhaps the negatives would outweigh the positives?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
I don't think we need to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut here.
We can get back to a more traditional style of football without completely changing the sport.
You have to have clear objectives though, and you need to look at the pros & cons of every rule change as there will undoubtedly be some unintended consequences.
Essentially, if we bring in 'Rule Change X', what's the worst that can happen?
So I'll throw this open to the forum.

I propose that:
1.0 All kick-outs at senior inter-county level are required to travel beyond the 45m line.
1.1 The mark rule stays as it is.
1.2 Before play can be restarted, there must be 6 players on the 20m line and 6 players on the 45m line in each half, with 4 midfielders allowed to roam freely between the 45m line.
1.3 The number on your back means nothing in this specific context. If you are Philly McMahon and you have just run up the field to kick a score, you can slot in on the opposition 20m line, as long as you don't exceed the allowed 3 players per line per team (Mannion could take his place in the FB line!)
1.4 As soon as the ball is kicked out, everyone is free to move wherever they want.

Now, 1.2 might be logistically difficult to police, so the logical compromise would be only allowing the 4 midfielders between the 45m lines and let everyone else go wherever they want.
BUT, if you don't get the hell out of the midfield zone as quickly as possible your team will be penalised.

Bear in mind there was plenty of negativity surrounding the introduction of the mark and the general consensus is that it has worked very well.
Worst case scenario, it hasn't negatively affected the game in any way.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: westbound on September 10, 2018, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
I don't think we need to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut here.
We can get back to a more traditional style of football without completely changing the sport.
You have to have clear objectives though, and you need to look at the pros & cons of every rule change as there will undoubtedly be some unintended consequences.
Essentially, if we bring in 'Rule Change X', what's the worst that can happen?
So I'll throw this open to the forum.

I propose that:
1.0 All kick-outs at senior inter-county level are required to travel beyond the 45m line.
1.1 The mark rule stays as it is.
1.2 Before play can be restarted, there must be 6 players on the 20m line and 6 players on the 45m line in each half, with 4 midfielders allowed to roam freely between the 45m line.
1.3 The number on your back means nothing in this specific context. If you are Philly McMahon and you have just run up the field to kick a score, you can slot in on the opposition 20m line, as long as you don't exceed the allowed 3 players per line per team (Mannion could take his place in the FB line!)
1.4 As soon as the ball is kicked out, everyone is free to move wherever they want.

Now, 1.2 might be logistically difficult to police, so the logical compromise would be only allowing the 4 midfielders between the 45m lines and let everyone else go wherever they want.
BUT, if you don't get the hell out of the midfield zone as quickly as possible your team will be penalised.

Bear in mind there was plenty of negativity surrounding the introduction of the mark and the general consensus is that it has worked very well.
Worst case scenario, it hasn't negatively affected the game in any way.

I agree with your general comments above.

With your specific proposals:
1.0 I disagree, I think this will encourage teams to get more men behind the ball for a kick out as there is no incentive for a forward to stay up front! (I see that you propose 1.2 also in conjunction with this - See below for my comments on that). Also, a forced long kickout may result in more kickout to the wing for midfielders to run onto (and not necessarily a high fielding competion in the middle of the field)
1.1 Agree
1.2 This one makes a lot of sense but on a practical level would it be possible to apply? Remember Joe Brolly suggested this in a challenge game a couple of years ago and we never heard of it again? That would suggest to me that it wasn't a sucess. Surely if it worked in that game, brolly would be bleating on about it for months/years? It would probably slow the kick outs down significantly.
However, if this rule was introduced, I think it would automatically result in keepers kicking more kickouts long (as all 6 defenders would in theory be marked) and therefore there would be no need for your rule 1.0.
1.3 Agreed.
1.4 Makes sense.

I would also add that a lot/most? of the problems in the game at the moment are during open play. Whilst addressing the kickouts would be a start, it does nothing to address the issues that occur throughout games. I think that's where the focus for any rule change should be, i.e. to encourage teams to be more advanced during open play. If this can be encouraged (or forced) then I think many of the other problems are only small problems.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on September 10, 2018, 02:00:58 PM
Enough of this afl tackle rubbish. It only works in the afl because there is a mark rule to complement it. If there wasn't that a forward would get hauled to his ass every time he caught a long ball. You can't feasibly have an afl tackle on its own, you'd have to bring in a mark rule too and at that stage we're just playing afl on a square pitch.

The only real workable suggestion is that all kickouts must pass the 45.

I'd try that on its own first and then see how it goes. If teams are still dropping far too many forwards back into defence on kick outs then we can look at fixing a certain amount of forwards  behind the offensive 45m line. The future problem with it is that teams with an good midfield will lord it over teams that are poor there, naturally the weaker teams will look to flood the misfiled with players to try and establish parity. Then if you keep just 4 midfielders in the middle and banish the rest behind the 45  you hand a disproportionate advantage to the side with the better midfield.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 02:17:13 PM
I think the short kick-out and resulting slow build-up play has a knock on effect beyond the initial 'post-restart' phase because it has a significant bearing on where players are on the field.
Now, if the kick-out is going beyond the 45m line, in most cases you will have the 4 midfielders contesting primary possession with some half-backs and half-forwards throwing themselves into the mix.
But they have to be careful about how they do this.
With the mark rule, if a midfielder from either side wins clean possession he will be looking to off-load to a runner coming through from the defensive half.
That runner will not be facing into a wall of bodies as the opposition had to plan for the possibility that THEY might have won that kick-out and THEY would be on the attack.

If someone asked me what era of football I was trying to recreate, I would say the period from 2005-2010.
If you could go back to that time and simply introduce the mark alone, I think that would genuinely be the pinnacle of football.
You can't go back to the 90's or further back because the players are too athletic and cover too much ground.
I remember people used to lament how little the ball was actually in-play in gaelic football.
I'd wager the ball is in-play for longer now, but that's due to teams meandering all over the field without doing anything.
I'd rather brief periods of high-intensity football than long periods of low-intensity football, any day of the week.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on September 10, 2018, 02:35:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 12:53:25 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on September 10, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
This is incredibly simple imo. The game is crap because it's too easy to retain possession. Teams won't push up because there's no point, they wont be able to turn the ball over.

Bring the handpass back to close fist. Much harder to to get a closed fist handpass off while being tackled than an open hand. Harder to keep it accurate also. You'll soon see teams pressure high up when turnovers are happening regularly.

I agree with you there.
Any rule change I've suggested is designed to reintroduce the idea of a contest for possession.
That's what people want to see.
Some people here seem to be of the view that the entertainment value doesn't matter, it's all about technical ability, efficiency, playing smart etc.
They need to appreciate that a lot of people are watching the game out of habit now, i.e. this is what you do during the summer, you watch the football.
They know they're not going to enjoy it.
If we sit on our hands and do nothing, pretty soon people will get out of the habit of going to games for definite but they'll also eventually lose interest in even watching on TV.
I know that process has already started for me and I've played and watched gaelic football most of my life.


I concur.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:35:52 PM
Tactical innovation changes games and it always has done. And that's how it should be, organic change, rather than bringing in ridiculous rules that have unintended consequences. The game has always changed and innovated and you'll always get luddites complaining that "it was better in my day".

Kerry people moaned when Tyrone players clattered into them from every angle in 2003. Kerry adapted and won three of the next four All-Irelands.

People moaned when Jim McGuinness put 14 players behind the ball. "The footballing superbug", said Joe Brolly. First Monaghan, then Mayo, and then Dublin adapted and figured Donegal out, and now its old hat.

People moan when Dublin keep possession. Well guess what, all field sports have evolved into possession games because all sports are influenced by sports science and statistics. Dublin couldn't play keep ball against Mayo, because Mayo's tactics wouldn't let them.

Possession as a tactic will cut down on massed defences and force teams to push more players up, and make the game more open, and better. Smart opposition coaches will see that. It already is doing that.

And when teams have to push players up, you automatically get more contests for possession.





Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on September 10, 2018, 02:43:40 PM
Players wear vests weighed down with lead.

Slow them down. Make them use their craft and guile, make the ball do the work. You'll see a better game then.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:51:38 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 10, 2018, 02:43:40 PM
Players wear vests weighed down with lead.

Slow them down. Make them use their craft and guile, make the ball do the work. You'll see a better game then.
Already been suggested.

Quote from: sid waddell on July 20, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Why not make Gaelic football like horse racing and introduce a weight handicap system?

Each player on the better teams would be forced to carry a specially weighted vest to slow them down.

Division 4 teams would carry no weight.

Division 3 teams would carry a weight of 1kg.

Division 2 teams would carry a weight of 2 kg.

Dicision 1 teams would carry 4kg.

Then, to really even things out, Dublin players would each have to carry 10kg.

It works in horse racing, so why not in Gaelic football?!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 02:52:23 PM
Sid, you seem to view all of this through the prism of Dublin.
If Dublin were the problem, we'd see loads of brilliant games every year not involving them.
It's not about Dublin playing keep ball against everyone else.
It's about practically everyone playing keep ball against practically everyone else.

Sports scientists would no doubt call it 'controlling the controllables'.
Have you ever heard a crowd cheering a short kick-out to a corner-back?
Contrast this with the reaction when a ball is fielded at midfield, or a defender wins a 50:50 ball with a forward, or a corner forward takes on his man (instead of three men) and buries the ball in the back of the net.
A game based on efficiency and control is admirable, but there's no joy in it.
We need to replace some of the science with art.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 02:52:23 PM
Sid, you seem to view all of this through the prism of Dublin.
If Dublin were the problem, we'd see loads of brilliant games every year not involving them.
It's not about Dublin playing keep ball against everyone else.
It's about practically everyone playing keep ball against practically everyone else.

Sports scientists would no doubt call it 'controlling the controllables'.
Have you ever heard a crowd cheering a short kick-out to a corner-back?
Contrast this with the reaction when a ball is fielded at midfield, or a defender wins a 50:50 ball with a forward, or a corner forward takes on his man (instead of three men) and buries the ball in the back of the net.
A game based on efficiency and control is admirable, but there's no joy in it.
We need to replace some of the science with art.

There were loads of brilliant games not involving Dubin this year.

Failure is the ultimate tactic-destroyer.

Adapt or die.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Franko on September 10, 2018, 03:05:47 PM
Quote from: Manning18 on September 10, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
This is incredibly simple imo. The game is crap because it's too easy to retain possession. Teams won't push up because there's no point, they wont be able to turn the ball over.

Bring the handpass back to close fist. Much harder to to get a closed fist handpass off while being tackled than an open hand. Harder to keep it accurate also. You'll soon see teams pressure high up when turnovers are happening regularly.

In a nutshell*.

Enforce the steps rule.
Closed fist pass only.

These small, subtle changes will make a big difference.  The rest are sledgehammer/nut* proposals with a myriad of unintended consequences.

*Just saw what I did there
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 03:11:07 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 02:52:23 PM
Sid, you seem to view all of this through the prism of Dublin.
If Dublin were the problem, we'd see loads of brilliant games every year not involving them.
It's not about Dublin playing keep ball against everyone else.
It's about practically everyone playing keep ball against practically everyone else.

Sports scientists would no doubt call it 'controlling the controllables'.
Have you ever heard a crowd cheering a short kick-out to a corner-back?
Contrast this with the reaction when a ball is fielded at midfield, or a defender wins a 50:50 ball with a forward, or a corner forward takes on his man (instead of three men) and buries the ball in the back of the net.
A game based on efficiency and control is admirable, but there's no joy in it.
We need to replace some of the science with art.

There were loads of brilliant games not involving Dubin this year.

Failure is the ultimate tactic-destroyer.

Adapt or die.

If that's your opinion, fair enough.
For me, there were a handful of good games that appeared better than they were because we are applying a relative standard as opposed to an absolute standard.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on September 10, 2018, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:51:38 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 10, 2018, 02:43:40 PM
Players wear vests weighed down with lead.

Slow them down. Make them use their craft and guile, make the ball do the work. You'll see a better game then.
Already been suggested.

Quote from: sid waddell on July 20, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Why not make Gaelic football like horse racing and introduce a weight handicap system?

Each player on the better teams would be forced to carry a specially weighted vest to slow them down.

Division 4 teams would carry no weight.

Division 3 teams would carry a weight of 1kg.

Division 2 teams would carry a weight of 2 kg.

Dicision 1 teams would carry 4kg.

Then, to really even things out, Dublin players would each have to carry 10kg.

It works in horse racing, so why not in Gaelic football?!

Damn you Sid!  :P
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 04:26:50 PM
Dublin players should have to carry each other.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:35:10 PM
Niall Moyna on OTB earlier.
I'd agree with him that we can't afford to let this cycle (if that's what it is) run its course.

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1039264754697613312 (https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1039264754697613312)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Itchy on September 10, 2018, 11:49:21 PM
Each team must field at least 5 fat f**kers. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on September 11, 2018, 12:05:14 AM
Mark out 14 squares on the field
1 player from each team must remain in each square at all times.
If you get the ball you must kick it forward within 5 seconds.
Leaving your square or not playing the ball within 5 seconds =Penalty .



Better put one if tgese in for the Ulster lads  :D
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Cunny Funt on September 11, 2018, 02:16:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:35:52 PM
Tactical innovation changes games and it always has done. And that's how it should be, organic change, rather than bringing in ridiculous rules that have unintended consequences. The game has always changed and innovated and you'll always get luddites complaining that "it was better in my day".

Kerry people moaned when Tyrone players clattered into them from every angle in 2003. Kerry adapted and won three of the next four All-Irelands.

People moaned when Jim McGuinness put 14 players behind the ball. "The footballing superbug", said Joe Brolly. First Monaghan, then Mayo, and then Dublin adapted and figured Donegal out, and now its old hat.

People moan when Dublin keep possession. Well guess what, all field sports have evolved into possession games because all sports are influenced by sports science and statistics. Dublin couldn't play keep ball against Mayo, because Mayo's tactics wouldn't let them.

Possession as a tactic will cut down on massed defences and force teams to push more players up, and make the game more open, and better. Smart opposition coaches will see that. It already is doing that.

And when teams have to push players up, you automatically get more contests for possession.

Short memory? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KbVIFEFnU&t=8s
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on September 11, 2018, 02:17:29 AM
6th Sept - The AFL Competition Committee is meeting next week with a view to introducing fixed formations at the restart after a score
in the next season, this season had the lowest scoring points per game in 50 years and congestion has been an increasing issue
for the game.

"With defensive strategies improved, data has shown the effect congestion has on the ability of players to demonstrate their skills and move the ball from end to end"

"Introduction of the six-six-six starting position at centre bounces could see the first phase of play after a centre bounce being more open with forwards and defenders engaging in one-on-one battles."

May have some merit in Gaelic Football but would need another referee to police in my opinion.

heres a link to the full article
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-competition-committee-to-look-at-6-6-6-next-week-20180906-p50224.html (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-competition-committee-to-look-at-6-6-6-next-week-20180906-p50224.html)

Cunny funt - great video of Mayo v Dublin pulldowns you posted to illustrate a need to change the rules.
Andy Moran favours a 50 metre style penalty to be introduced for it.
http://www.the42.ie/andy-moran-50-yard-penalty-call-3925202-Mar2018/ (http://www.the42.ie/andy-moran-50-yard-penalty-call-3925202-Mar2018/)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: TheGreatest on September 11, 2018, 08:51:25 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 02:51:38 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 10, 2018, 02:43:40 PM
Players wear vests weighed down with lead.

Slow them down. Make them use their craft and guile, make the ball do the work. You'll see a better game then.
Already been suggested.

Quote from: sid waddell on July 20, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Why not make Gaelic football like horse racing and introduce a weight handicap system?

Each player on the better teams would be forced to carry a specially weighted vest to slow them down.

Division 4 teams would carry no weight.

Division 3 teams would carry a weight of 1kg.

Division 2 teams would carry a weight of 2 kg.

Dicision 1 teams would carry 4kg.

Then, to really even things out, Dublin players would each have to carry 10kg.

It works in horse racing, so why not in Gaelic football?!

I presume that was a joke.

I see everyone mentioning Dublin as a comparison for new rules to be implemented. I believe you need to look elsewhere and use other

Michael Murphy said on the Sunday game that in Donegal they are trying to play like Dublin , playing more attacking football, it showed the last couple of years.

Dublin changing the game for the better I believe, teams now know that they have to score over 20 points/scores to beat the best and that's what they are training at now. The Dark ages are over.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: MoChara on September 11, 2018, 08:52:15 AM
If you receive the ball from a handpass, you can only kick it, along with enforcing the carrying rule this will put a bit of extra pressure on the player on the ball without making wholesale changes to the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 11, 2018, 09:04:36 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on September 11, 2018, 02:17:29 AM
6th Sept - The AFL Competition Committee is meeting next week with a view to introducing fixed formations at the restart after a score
in the next season, this season had the lowest scoring points per game in 50 years and congestion has been an increasing issue
for the game.

"With defensive strategies improved, data has shown the effect congestion has on the ability of players to demonstrate their skills and move the ball from end to end"

"Introduction of the six-six-six starting position at centre bounces could see the first phase of play after a centre bounce being more open with forwards and defenders engaging in one-on-one battles."

May have some merit in Gaelic Football but would need another referee to police in my opinion.

heres a link to the full article
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-competition-committee-to-look-at-6-6-6-next-week-20180906-p50224.html (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-competition-committee-to-look-at-6-6-6-next-week-20180906-p50224.html)

Cunny funt - great video of Mayo v Dublin pulldowns you posted to illustrate a need to change the rules.
Andy Moran favours a 50 metre style penalty to be introduced for it.
http://www.the42.ie/andy-moran-50-yard-penalty-call-3925202-Mar2018/ (http://www.the42.ie/andy-moran-50-yard-penalty-call-3925202-Mar2018/)

It's funny the way someone involved in a professional sport can recognise that this is a problem, while anyone saying the same in a GAA context is often characterised as a misty-eyed traditionalist.
Most team sports, to a greater or lesser extent, need to be protected from coaches.
Coaches are there to win, they are not there to look after the health of the sport.
Checks & balances are required.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ha ha derry on September 11, 2018, 09:21:52 AM
The ball must be played forward except inside the attacking 20m line. Simple.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Orchard park on September 11, 2018, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 11, 2018, 09:04:36 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on September 11, 2018, 02:17:29 AM
6th Sept - The AFL Competition Committee is meeting next week with a view to introducing fixed formations at the restart after a score
in the next season, this season had the lowest scoring points per game in 50 years and congestion has been an increasing issue
for the game.

"With defensive strategies improved, data has shown the effect congestion has on the ability of players to demonstrate their skills and move the ball from end to end"

"Introduction of the six-six-six starting position at centre bounces could see the first phase of play after a centre bounce being more open with forwards and defenders engaging in one-on-one battles."

May have some merit in Gaelic Football but would need another referee to police in my opinion.

heres a link to the full article
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-competition-committee-to-look-at-6-6-6-next-week-20180906-p50224.html (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-competition-committee-to-look-at-6-6-6-next-week-20180906-p50224.html)

Cunny funt - great video of Mayo v Dublin pulldowns you posted to illustrate a need to change the rules.
Andy Moran favours a 50 metre style penalty to be introduced for it.
http://www.the42.ie/andy-moran-50-yard-penalty-call-3925202-Mar2018/ (http://www.the42.ie/andy-moran-50-yard-penalty-call-3925202-Mar2018/)

It's funny the way someone involved in a professional sport can recognise that this is a problem, while anyone saying the same in a GAA context is often characterised as a misty-eyed traditionalist.
Most team sports, to a greater or lesser extent, need to be protected from coaches.
Coaches are there to win, they are not there to look after the health of the sport.
Checks & balances are required.

Most coaches now set out nt to lose  within the loose application of poorly defined rules
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: kerryforsam2018 on September 12, 2018, 11:08:48 AM
I actually don't think we need many rule changes, people are just having a discussion. It's allowed and it's not all about Dublin.

Usually when people get really defensive about everything they have something to hide or something they feel guilty about. What do the Dubs feel guilty about?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PM
I think an offensive mark would help. For example a player who fields the ball clean inside the opposition 20m line should get a free in. I think the not allowed move backwards inside the opposition half won't work, it will actually make it more defensive. For example if you knew the opposition couldnt go backwards after crossing into your half, wouldnt you have all your players sit deep until they crossed the line and then press out as soon as they did cross the line? It might be interesting but its not what I would consider Football.

One thing that is worth considering is going to 13 a side. More space means harder to have a mass defense.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 12, 2018, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PM
I think an offensive mark would help. For example a player who fields the ball clean inside the opposition 20m line should get a free in. I think the not allowed move backwards inside the opposition half won't work, it will actually make it more defensive. For example if you knew the opposition couldnt go backwards after crossing into your half, wouldnt you have all your players sit deep until they crossed the line and then press out as soon as they did cross the line? It might be interesting but its not what I would consider Football.

One thing that is worth considering is going to 13 a side. More space means harder to have a mass defense.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 12, 2018, 02:17:01 PM
Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PM
I think an offensive mark would help. For example a player who fields the ball clean inside the opposition 20m line should get a free in. I think the not allowed move backwards inside the opposition half won't work, it will actually make it more defensive. For example if you knew the opposition couldnt go backwards after crossing into your half, wouldnt you have all your players sit deep until they crossed the line and then press out as soon as they did cross the line? It might be interesting but its not what I would consider Football.

An offensive mark would totally change the character of the game for the worse. It would largely kill off points from play as we know them. No thanks.

Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PMOne thing that is worth considering is going to 13 a side. More space means harder to have a mass defense.
Would mean more focus on fitness and less on skill. No thanks.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Captain Obvious on September 12, 2018, 02:32:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2018, 02:17:01 PM

An offensive mark would totally change the character of the game for the worse. It would largely kill off points from play as we know them. No thanks.

Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PMOne thing that is worth considering is going to 13 a side. More space means harder to have a mass defense.
Would mean more focus on fitness and less on skill. No thanks.

Arguably the way the game has gone since 2010. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sid waddell on September 12, 2018, 02:40:29 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 12, 2018, 02:32:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2018, 02:17:01 PM

An offensive mark would totally change the character of the game for the worse. It would largely kill off points from play as we know them. No thanks.

Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PMOne thing that is worth considering is going to 13 a side. More space means harder to have a mass defense.
Would mean more focus on fitness and less on skill. No thanks.

Arguably the way the game has gone since 2010.

All field games have always been increasing their focus on fitness and physicality. That's the natural human drive to improve.

But the 15 a side game strikes the right balance between fitness and physicality and skill.

By removing four of the 30 players from the pitch, you increase not just the space, but the amount of space players have to cover, thus exponentially increasing the focus on fitness and physicality at the expense of skill.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on September 12, 2018, 02:49:31 PM
How about not changing anything? These rules are stupid and half the time aren't implemented. I've played senior football for 14+ years and does everyone on the field wear a gumshield? No. Do I see black cards being issued correctly, if at all? No. Has the mark done anything to encourage more high fielding? No.

I can safely say I dread the these conversations, they only come about because one of the best teams of all time is at their peak or because slaughtneil and magherafelt playing puke football for about a minute has just went viral.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 12, 2018, 02:51:02 PM
Lads, the one major change that is easy to implement and doesn't impose a significant additional demand on our utterly hapless officials is the restart.
The thought of refs having to count hand-passes...
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Owenmoresider on September 12, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 12, 2018, 02:51:02 PM
Lads, the one major change that is easy to implement and doesn't impose a significant additional demand on our utterly hapless officials is the restart.
The thought of refs having to count hand-passes...
We already trust (well the powers that be do anyway) them to count a player's steps so counting three handpasses shouldn't be that bad.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jinxy on September 12, 2018, 03:16:01 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on September 12, 2018, 03:35:56 PM
The GAA isn't interested in changing anything.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 12, 2018, 02:17:01 PM
Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PM
I think an offensive mark would help. For example a player who fields the ball clean inside the opposition 20m line should get a free in. I think the not allowed move backwards inside the opposition half won't work, it will actually make it more defensive. For example if you knew the opposition couldnt go backwards after crossing into your half, wouldnt you have all your players sit deep until they crossed the line and then press out as soon as they did cross the line? It might be interesting but its not what I would consider Football.

An offensive mark would totally change the character of the game for the worse. It would largely kill off points from play as we know them. No thanks.

Quote from: Itchy on September 12, 2018, 01:30:47 PMOne thing that is worth considering is going to 13 a side. More space means harder to have a mass defense.
Would mean more focus on fitness and less on skill. No thanks.

Fitness is already the top focus. Pace and skill would potentially take precedence over being able to organise yourself into a defensive shape.

I think the mark would be hard to predict but it has to be worth a trial.

I say "No Thanks" to doing nothing
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on September 18, 2018, 12:05:16 PM
Sean Cavanagh called for two refs before weekend injuries.
http://www.the42.ie/sean-cavanagh-second-referee-4236039-Sep2018/?utm_source=shortlink (http://www.the42.ie/sean-cavanagh-second-referee-4236039-Sep2018/?utm_source=shortlink)

Another advocate of two refs Paul Earley favours kick outs past the 45.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/paul-earley-football-needs-more-contests-for-the-ball-1.3624740?mode=amp (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/paul-earley-football-needs-more-contests-for-the-ball-1.3624740?mode=amp)

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: shawshank on September 18, 2018, 12:12:18 PM
Cannot agree with the Kick out being over the 45, can you see the tactic, managers taking four of their forwards out into the middle section of the field with clear instruction on breaking ball and swarming around the break and intensified tackling, just a mess with no fluid football, unlike what we have now with possession based kick outs and a lot more football played as a result. Very short sighted.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on September 18, 2018, 12:34:11 PM
Non stop POSSESSION is the main problem! !!!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: shawshank on September 18, 2018, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 18, 2018, 12:34:11 PM
Non stop POSSESSION is the main problem! !!!

Yes, but non stop possession is on the basic principle of the ability to fist pass the ball rather than kick it, therefore the kick out is NOT the fundamental issue.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trileacman on September 18, 2018, 02:02:33 PM
Quote from: shawshank on September 18, 2018, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 18, 2018, 12:34:11 PM
Non stop POSSESSION is the main problem! !!!

Yes, but non stop possession is on the basic principle of the ability to fist pass the ball rather than kick it, therefore the kick out is NOT the fundamental issue.

The problem with short kick outs are that it's easy to win by the team in possession so the defending team automatically withdraw their forwards to the 45 where they stand a better chance of turning over the ball. A long kick out to the 45 would at least mean players would be committed to the midfield as opposed to inside their 45m.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: CJ2017 on October 01, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Exclusion Zone for Joe Brolly
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html (https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on October 01, 2018, 10:12:31 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on October 01, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Exclusion Zone for Joe Brolly
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html (https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html)

Unbelievable. The man is mentally retarded. Imagine coming up with this idea, and then imagine printing it in a newspaper.
Joe, no one is laughing with you, everyone is laughing at you.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 01, 2018, 10:22:14 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on October 01, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Exclusion Zone for Joe Brolly
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html (https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html)
I agree with him that all the calls for limiting the fist pass completely miss the point, but this suggestion is unworkable in the real world.
It would probably work perfectly on Planet Joe
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on October 01, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on October 01, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Exclusion Zone for Joe Brolly
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html (https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html)
Would need to be tested but has potential. The game is very unwell at the moment
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: five points on October 01, 2018, 11:09:39 AM
Unless I'm missing something, a team defending  30-yard free would have to leave the goalie on his own defending the goals if the attacking team's forwards all stood back from the exclusion zone?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: JoG2 on October 01, 2018, 11:27:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 01, 2018, 10:12:31 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on October 01, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Exclusion Zone for Joe Brolly
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html (https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html)

Unbelievable. The man is mentally retarded. Imagine coming up with this idea, and then imagine printing it in a newspaper.
Joe, no one is laughing with you, everyone is laughing at you.

you may disagree but that the line in bold is out of order

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
It's a remarkably awful idea.

If this is what he's after, why not just limit the maximum number of players per team in each half to 9, or within each 45 to 8 or 9?

No new pitch lines needed. No major adjustment to time-served playing positions and roles. No great difficulty to referee, so long as everyone can accept that a passive transgression (ie Johnny wanders over halfway line, does a count, quickly wanders back.... without getting involved in play) by a player does not merit a punishment.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on October 01, 2018, 12:32:42 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 01, 2018, 11:27:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 01, 2018, 10:12:31 AM
Quote from: CJ2017 on October 01, 2018, 04:52:47 AM
Exclusion Zone for Joe Brolly
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html (https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/exclusion-zone-can-destroy-blanket-joe-brolly-outlines-his-plan-to-make-football-a-skillbased-spectacle-once-again-37368216.html)

Unbelievable. The man is mentally retarded. Imagine coming up with this idea, and then imagine printing it in a newspaper.
Joe, no one is laughing with you, everyone is laughing at you.

you may disagree but that the line in bold is out of order

No it's not. He's a Derry retard.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyHarp on October 01, 2018, 12:39:15 PM
Quote from: five points on October 01, 2018, 11:09:39 AM
Unless I'm missing something, a team defending  30-yard free would have to leave the goalie on his own defending the goals if the attacking team's forwards all stood back from the exclusion zone?

I was thinking the same thing - Am I right in saying that, if all forwards pulled out of the "exclusion zone" and we managed to lay off a short handpass to an on running speedster then he would literally have a clear run on the goalkeeper with only his marker flailing behind him? Would all other defenders be stood with their tip toes on the edge of the exclusion zone watching helplessly as a goal is scored? If this is the best that Joe can come with after thinking about it for a long time then it really doesn't say much about his understanding of the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: five points on October 01, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
No great difficulty to referee, so long as everyone can accept that a passive transgression (ie Johnny wanders over halfway line, does a count, quickly wanders back.... without getting involved in play) by a player does not merit a punishment.

How would that work? And a referee is supposed to be following the play, not constantly doing headcounts over half the field.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 01:33:12 PM
Quote from: five points on October 01, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
No great difficulty to referee, so long as everyone can accept that a passive transgression (ie Johnny wanders over halfway line, does a count, quickly wanders back.... without getting involved in play) by a player does not merit a punishment.

How would that work? And a referee is supposed to be following the play, not constantly doing headcounts over half the field.


If you were to take such a rule in a completely literal way, it would be impossible to referee. As you say, their head would need to spin all match long.

If the rule through were to be written so that only active participants are counted, it would make things much easier. So if Dublin's CHB wanders inside the opposition half making 10 Dubs in there, it's not penalised unless said CHB tries to become an active part the game e.g. becoming an option to receive the ball, or (in reverse), closing off an angle of attack.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 01, 2018, 01:59:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 01:33:12 PM
Quote from: five points on October 01, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
No great difficulty to referee, so long as everyone can accept that a passive transgression (ie Johnny wanders over halfway line, does a count, quickly wanders back.... without getting involved in play) by a player does not merit a punishment.

How would that work? And a referee is supposed to be following the play, not constantly doing headcounts over half the field.


If you were to take such a rule in a completely literal way, it would be impossible to referee. As you say, their head would need to spin all match long.

If the rule through were to be written so that only active participants are counted, it would make things much easier. So if Dublin's CHB wanders inside the opposition half making 10 Dubs in there, it's not penalised unless said CHB tries to become an active part the game e.g. becoming an option to receive the ball, or (in reverse), closing off an angle of attack.
Ah Jesus, then you get into the same sort of farce they have with offside in soccer with who is active and who isnt.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 01, 2018, 01:59:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 01:33:12 PM
Quote from: five points on October 01, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
No great difficulty to referee, so long as everyone can accept that a passive transgression (ie Johnny wanders over halfway line, does a count, quickly wanders back.... without getting involved in play) by a player does not merit a punishment.

How would that work? And a referee is supposed to be following the play, not constantly doing headcounts over half the field.


If you were to take such a rule in a completely literal way, it would be impossible to referee. As you say, their head would need to spin all match long.

If the rule through were to be written so that only active participants are counted, it would make things much easier. So if Dublin's CHB wanders inside the opposition half making 10 Dubs in there, it's not penalised unless said CHB tries to become an active part the game e.g. becoming an option to receive the ball, or (in reverse), closing off an angle of attack.
Ah Jesus, then you get into the same sort of farce they have with offside in soccer with who is active and who isnt.

Yeah you would. But 9 times out 10, passive/active is beyond obvious and nobody bats an eyelid. It *should* be easier to determine using a 45m line too, as a) in soccer the point of offside is an imaginary and ever-moving line, and b) being ahead of the ball in Gaelic would make you immediately active (for forwards, it makes you a potential target, for defenders, it means you are blocking off a passing line).
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: rrhf on October 01, 2018, 02:48:04 PM
Time to become Aussie rules.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Itchy on October 01, 2018, 07:27:14 PM
Let's just do nothing, sure it's a great spectacle the way it is.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: lenny on October 01, 2018, 08:50:26 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 01, 2018, 01:59:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 01:33:12 PM
Quote from: five points on October 01, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on October 01, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
No great difficulty to referee, so long as everyone can accept that a passive transgression (ie Johnny wanders over halfway line, does a count, quickly wanders back.... without getting involved in play) by a player does not merit a punishment.

How would that work? And a referee is supposed to be following the play, not constantly doing headcounts over half the field.

In netball the players have their position on their jersey. Gaelic teams could easily have 5 players with a large A on their jersey (front and back) for attacker and 5 with a large D for defender. These players aren't allowed in the other half of the field. This allows 4 transition players who can go into either half and these players could just have ordinary numbers. This would be easy to police as the ref doesn't have to count players. Subs would have to wear an A or D if they were replacing forwards or defenders. Any rule changes need to be relatively easy to ref. There are numerous very skilful players who would benefit from this change. Think of players like colin corkery who was class to watch but wouldn't fit into the modern day county team because he can't run up and down the pitch all day. Having designated forwards and defenders with a few transition players makes room again for different types of player.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min
In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on October 02, 2018, 11:23:10 AM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/gaa-chiefs-considering-a-return-to-sin-bin-system-872884.html

How will Refs be more consistent in operating the sin bin than the black card?
Good luck with trying to get hurley refs to implement the no throwing rule ;D
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on October 02, 2018, 01:04:52 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min
In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

I would hate a shot clock for so many reasons
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Maiden1 on October 02, 2018, 01:48:35 PM
Couldn't we just ban Dublin or maybe just Jim Gavin from coaching them, they are too fecking good.  I had a bet on Tyrone to cause an upset (7-1 in a 2 horse race surely has to be value ??  :-\ :-\  :'() but was contemplating cutting the grass at 1/2 time as it was all over.

Every so often someone will put up a game that ended 1-4 to 0-3 and say it's the death of football but in All Ireland finals at least there has only been 1 decade where there was more scores.

           Score Av           Attendance Av
           ---------          -----------
1890s           12.0           3,900
1900s           14.0           8,800
1910s           15.6           15,722
1920s           13.6           23,270
1930s           22.8           42,924
1940s           22.5           59,146
1950s           23.6           76,820
1960s           23.7           77,647
1970s           34.3           70,407
1980s           27.6           66,404
1990s           27.9           64,352
2000s           31.3           78,456
2010s           31.9           82,179
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on October 02, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min

In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Shot clock won't work. It will never work. It will never be implemented.

I would like a shot clock on people suggesting a 'shot clock' It is suggested weekly at this stage. 
It's the idea people who probably have never played the game or people who have little understanding of basketball or sport in general. It's the "I've been down the pub and a few people were chatting about Gaelic football and to show my knowledge of all things sports related, I'll suggest a shot clock rule change so I fit in" suggestion.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: lenny on October 02, 2018, 08:17:28 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 01, 2018, 09:09:35 PM
Letters on jerseys, eh? And all this for the likes of Corkery who couldn't walk by the chippy.

She's finished.

Corkery was a class player to watch. This rule would guarantee no blanket defences and is easy to implement and ref.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on October 02, 2018, 08:32:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 01, 2018, 07:27:14 PM
Let's just do nothing, sure it's a great spectacle the way it is.
Let's just do any oul 5h1te without thinking it through because you can guarantee if there are any unintended consequences coaches will be very quick to identify and exploit them.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on October 03, 2018, 10:51:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 02, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min

In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Shot clock won't work. It will never work. It will never be implemented.

I would like a shot clock on people suggesting a 'shot clock' It is suggested weekly at this stage. 
It's the idea people who probably have never played the game or people who have little understanding of basketball or sport in general. It's the "I've been down the pub and a few people were chatting about Gaelic football and to show my knowledge of all things sports related, I'll suggest a shot clock rule change so I fit in" suggestion.

Why wouldn't a shot clock work? Give reasons don't just shoot down. Does it work in Basketball? Yes. Is Football like basketball? Yes! Keep ball is getting ludicrous heading the way of the most boring soccer only worse and far too easy with an ill defined badly reffed tackle as well)
What is your solution Something  positive please.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cjx on October 03, 2018, 11:01:27 AM
And did you see the penalties proposed for the 5 rule changes to the experimented with in league?
Bizarre
2 hour games as all the U16 run around trying to sort themselves out and be counted at the kickouts and the defending team can't touch a kickout before it crosses the 45m line ( Is this really what they suggest? ) All this on a park pitch with no lines and no flags!
Pure farce
Again if you want to test these changes do it at Junior B.
This stupid media driven elitist approach is the end of Gaelic football No players just playing for fun ( ie. 95%) No children will want anything to do with this game if this approach prevails Shot clock very simple compared to this nonsense

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tippabu on October 03, 2018, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: cjx on October 03, 2018, 10:51:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 02, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min

In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Shot clock won't work. It will never work. It will never be implemented.

I would like a shot clock on people suggesting a 'shot clock' It is suggested weekly at this stage. 
It's the idea people who probably have never played the game or people who have little understanding of basketball or sport in general. It's the "I've been down the pub and a few people were chatting about Gaelic football and to show my knowledge of all things sports related, I'll suggest a shot clock rule change so I fit in" suggestion.

Why wouldn't a shot clock work? Give reasons don't just shoot down. Does it work in Basketball? Yes. Is Football like basketball? Yes! Keep ball is getting ludicrous heading the way of the most boring soccer only worse and far too easy with an ill defined badly reffed tackle as well)
What is your solution Something  positive please.

It wouldn't work because it would encourage and reward an even greater ultra defensive set up because the opposition have a certain period to score and you know you just need to pack the scoring zone for that time. The game will evolve with any changes and teams will adapt and counter them so every possibility needs to be fully thought of
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Christmas Lights on October 03, 2018, 11:19:49 AM
Quote from: cjx on October 03, 2018, 10:51:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 02, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min

In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Shot clock won't work. It will never work. It will never be implemented.

I would like a shot clock on people suggesting a 'shot clock' It is suggested weekly at this stage. 
It's the idea people who probably have never played the game or people who have little understanding of basketball or sport in general. It's the "I've been down the pub and a few people were chatting about Gaelic football and to show my knowledge of all things sports related, I'll suggest a shot clock rule change so I fit in" suggestion.

Why wouldn't a shot clock work? Give reasons don't just shoot down. Does it work in Basketball? Yes. Is Football like basketball? Yes! Keep ball is getting ludicrous heading the way of the most boring soccer only worse and far too easy with an ill defined badly reffed tackle as well)
What is your solution Something  positive please.

A shot clock..looooooooololoolololololololololol

Catch yourself on.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Manning18 on October 03, 2018, 11:32:43 AM
Tearing my hair out that the simple but effective "closed fist-pass only" wasn't proposed. Replace a plague that takes zero skill with a tougher skill, harder to retain possession, create more turnovers, give teams a reason to push on and put pressure on the ball carrier. So easy
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on October 04, 2018, 09:46:14 AM
Quote from: cjx on October 03, 2018, 10:51:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 02, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min

In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Shot clock won't work. It will never work. It will never be implemented.

I would like a shot clock on people suggesting a 'shot clock' It is suggested weekly at this stage. 
It's the idea people who probably have never played the game or people who have little understanding of basketball or sport in general. It's the "I've been down the pub and a few people were chatting about Gaelic football and to show my knowledge of all things sports related, I'll suggest a shot clock rule change so I fit in" suggestion.

Why wouldn't a shot clock work? Give reasons don't just shoot down. Does it work in Basketball? Yes. Is Football like basketball? Yes! Keep ball is getting ludicrous heading the way of the most boring soccer only worse and far too easy with an ill defined badly reffed tackle as well)
What is your solution Something  positive please.
If a team brings eveyone back within 50 yards of their own goal (blanket defence 2.0) and leaves nowhere for the attacking team a shot clock is simply rewarding the defending team and dis-incentivising the attacking one.
A shot click will leave games more negative as teams will be less inclined to commit men forward knowing they will have to defend within 70 seconds again.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on October 04, 2018, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: tippabu on October 03, 2018, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: cjx on October 03, 2018, 10:51:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 02, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: cjx on October 02, 2018, 10:36:14 AM
More convinced than ever that as in basketball in '70s shot clock is the only answer. In 2nd half
2 min

In final added time/extra time 1 min

All goalkeeper kickouts from small rectangle. Inhibits short kick outs

Revert to fistpass (as was faced up in 1950s after the Antrim 1946-48 team hardly ever kicked the ball in open play)

Mark from all free's, kick-outs and sidelines

Trying to police exclusion zones or back passing impossible! Remember club should be king and think Junior Championship on a muddy winter pitch

Shot clock won't work. It will never work. It will never be implemented.

I would like a shot clock on people suggesting a 'shot clock' It is suggested weekly at this stage. 
It's the idea people who probably have never played the game or people who have little understanding of basketball or sport in general. It's the "I've been down the pub and a few people were chatting about Gaelic football and to show my knowledge of all things sports related, I'll suggest a shot clock rule change so I fit in" suggestion.

Why wouldn't a shot clock work? Give reasons don't just shoot down. Does it work in Basketball? Yes. Is Football like basketball? Yes! Keep ball is getting ludicrous heading the way of the most boring soccer only worse and far too easy with an ill defined badly reffed tackle as well)
What is your solution Something  positive please.

It wouldn't work because it would encourage and reward an even greater ultra defensive set up because the opposition have a certain period to score and you know you just need to pack the scoring zone for that time. The game will evolve with any changes and teams will adapt and counter them so every possibility needs to be fully thought of

Regardless of how it effects the game, a shot clock needs to be seen by the players. They need to know how long is on the shot clock. A GAA pitch is huge. Any clock would need to be massive - at both ends of the ground. We struggle to get lines and flags on pitches. Two massive shot clocks are not realistic in every pitch in the country.
People need to think ideas through. Some ideas have been invented on the back of fag packets and need to remain there.

Few changes I would suggest and would like to potentially see TRIALLED (not immediately implemented regardless of anything because I want change for change sake).
80 minute games. Reduce subs to 4, reduce teams to 13 or 14 a side. Should create more space, tired legs and more opportunities.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2018, 01:00:32 PM
80 minutes for the Junior B :o
Are you an undertaker by any chance?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on October 04, 2018, 01:17:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 04, 2018, 01:00:32 PM
80 minutes for the Junior B :o
Are you an undertaker by any chance?

80 mins inter county.
I'd imagine 60 mins might still be enough at club level, although 70mins for championship might be worth looking at.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: macker15 on June 04, 2021, 08:58:26 AM
Push and stop keeping 15 bodies behind the ball.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 09:34:50 AM
Is it just me or are there a lot of fisting the ball over the bar lately?

Jaysus, but it's an abomination.

And while they're at it, get rid of throwing the ball into the net. It should be closed fist only.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Taylor on June 04, 2021, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 09:34:50 AM
Is it just me or are there a lot of fisting the ball over the bar lately?

Jaysus, but it's an abomination.

And while they're at it, get rid of throwing the ball into the net. It should be closed fist only.

The high number of fisted points was alluded to by McConville last Sunday night
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: seafoid on June 04, 2021, 11:17:55 AM
Limit the number of passes.
I think rugby league does something like this,
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 11:19:32 AM
Quote from: Taylor on June 04, 2021, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 09:34:50 AM
Is it just me or are there a lot of fisting the ball over the bar lately?

Jaysus, but it's an abomination.

And while they're at it, get rid of throwing the ball into the net. It should be closed fist only.

The high number of fisted points was alluded to by McConville last Sunday night

Alluded to in a positive way, or in a negative way?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: johnnycool on June 04, 2021, 11:36:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2021, 11:17:55 AM
Limit the number of passes.
I think rugby league does something like this,

Rugby league limit the number of tackles to 6 then you turn the ball over to the opposition which normally leads to a big punt down the field on the 5th tackle. Not sure about passes.


Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on June 04, 2021, 11:37:22 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 09:34:50 AM
Is it just me or are there a lot of fisting the ball over the bar lately?

Jaysus, but it's an abomination.

And while they're at it, get rid of throwing the ball into the net. It should be closed fist only.
For once I agree 100% with a Benny comment :o
Those 2 handed "pushes" into the net are probably technically throws while hand throwing the ball over the bar is a disgrace.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: smelmoth on June 04, 2021, 12:59:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2021, 11:17:55 AM
Limit the number of passes.
I think rugby league does something like this,

It limits the number of phases. A phase ends with a completed. Same purpose as the shot clock. Can't see how it could work operationally in football.

Incentivise team to get the ball forward and risk losing the ball. Generally speaking the more times the ball crosses halfway in a forward direction the better the quality game.

Mandate teams to keep a specified number of players in the attacking half. It's been said before but never tried. I think there is something in it
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Taylor on June 04, 2021, 03:00:39 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 11:19:32 AM
Quote from: Taylor on June 04, 2021, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 09:34:50 AM
Is it just me or are there a lot of fisting the ball over the bar lately?

Jaysus, but it's an abomination.

And while they're at it, get rid of throwing the ball into the net. It should be closed fist only.

The high number of fisted points was alluded to by McConville last Sunday night

Alluded to in a positive way, or in a negative way?

He didnt like it at all - the Gooch seemed to agree with him.

It could have been more they were both pissed off attackers werent going for goals when that close to the nets
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2021, 11:37:22 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on June 04, 2021, 09:34:50 AM
Is it just me or are there a lot of fisting the ball over the bar lately?

Jaysus, but it's an abomination.

And while they're at it, get rid of throwing the ball into the net. It should be closed fist only.
For once I agree 100% with a Benny comment :o
Those 2 handed "pushes" into the net are probably technically throws while hand throwing the ball over the bar is a disgrace.

You're always agreeing with me. You just don't like to admit it  ;)


While we're at it... players kicking frees from the hands from 14 yards out, straight  in front of the goals. Oh Sweet jaysus, that is brutal looking. It's like watching u-8's playing.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: macker15 on June 04, 2021, 03:48:08 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2021, 11:17:55 AM
Limit the number of passes.
I think rugby league does something like this,

Agree 100% but what can be done to stop teams putting 15 bodies the ball. You have managers paid 100s of euros a session and half their players cant kick a ball 30 yards. All hand passes along with parking the bus.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on June 06, 2021, 01:44:16 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 04, 2021, 11:17:55 AM
Limit the number of passes.
I think rugby league does something like this,

That's all we need now a game obsessed with not counting steps and counting passes!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 5times5times on May 29, 2022, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

Are you honestly saying ydays 2 pathetic finals were better then today??????
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: didlyi on May 29, 2022, 06:46:25 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on May 29, 2022, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

Are you honestly saying ydays 2 pathetic finals were better then today??????

There you go, theres the problem. Some people defend it as entertaining. There is no hope.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: didlyi on May 29, 2022, 06:53:10 PM
One sided games dont make the game awfull. There are one sided games in every sport which are more to do with the structure of the competition than the game itself. But games like todays Ulster final question flaws in the game itself. The number of hand passes is the elephant in the room for me.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on May 29, 2022, 07:03:25 PM
could we just bring in a shot clock
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on May 29, 2022, 07:05:03 PM
tho a shotclock might make blanket defending easier as a team would have less time to try and penetrate it probably.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 5times5times on May 29, 2022, 07:07:29 PM
Quote from: didlyi on May 29, 2022, 06:46:25 PM
Quote from: 5times5times on May 29, 2022, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

Are you honestly saying ydays 2 pathetic finals were better then today??????

There you go, theres the problem. Some people defend it as entertaining. There is no hope.

I'd prefer a tense game, where the winning team still posts 1-16, against a fellow high level opposition, that the cac on show yday... derry won't care. They've just beaten the 3 best teams in ulster to win title, while kerry beat 2x junior club teams...

Structure needs fixed 1st.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 07:53:32 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.
God help us all if we are willing to go to, pay for and watch that nonsense today.  It was brutal, no other words.  Yes the other games were lopsided but at least they tried to play football not handpass all over the field and afraid to take shots. I think we will lose a lot of fans if this continues and it's sad to see the game played like this..
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.

You only need no.2. No team would be capable of playing keep ball inside an opponents half.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: marty34 on May 29, 2022, 08:47:28 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

I enjoyed it. Good tense game.

I cut the grass at half-time after the first time in the Dublin V Kildare stuff. Boring stuff.

Too many rules above at county level never mind club level.

Biggest issue GAA has is the appeals etc. process when players get sent off. Madness.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 08:58:09 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 07:53:32 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.
God help us all if we are willing to go to, pay for and watch that nonsense today.  It was brutal, no other words.  Yes the other games were lopsided but at least they tried to play football not handpass all over the field and afraid to take shots. I think we will lose a lot of fans if this continues and it's sad to see the game played like this..

Hardly nonsense. Was still some good play in there, and while at times it wasn't pretty, it was still hugely tense. Like you've a team coming out of the doldrums, no final in 11 years, no win in 24. They came up with a plan, and it worked. I will take that any day over the absolute sh1t we saw yesterday. Like, what do people actually want? Not every game can be top quality, free flowing football. You'll get games like this, especially when you've a team trying to break through a glass ceiling. Enjoy it for what it is. I took a lot of entertainment out of it, and am happy for the Derry people. My Donegal missus is not so much though
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.

You only need no.2. No team would be capable of playing keep ball inside an opponents half.

What is it achieving though? And what is it solving? Many time we try to solve an end result, and not the root cause. One game you don't like, and you want to bring in ridiculous rules, that will be tough to police. Leave the game alone. Simplify things if anything, not putting on rules to try and adjust things too much
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 29, 2022, 09:21:21 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 07:53:32 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.
God help us all if we are willing to go to, pay for and watch that nonsense today.  It was brutal, no other words.  Yes the other games were lopsided but at least they tried to play football not handpass all over the field and afraid to take shots. I think we will lose a lot of fans if this continues and it's sad to see the game played like this..

The games yesterday would have you zoning out. They weren't interesting or entertaining. Todays game was far from a spectacle of football but it held the interest.
Yesterdays games are an example of a bigger problem in the GAA that will turn off more fans that todays ever will.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 09:42:06 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.

You only need no.2. No team would be capable of playing keep ball inside an opponents half.

What is it achieving though? And what is it solving? Many time we try to solve an end result, and not the root cause. One game you don't like, and you want to bring in ridiculous rules, that will be tough to police. Leave the game alone. Simplify things if anything, not putting on rules to try and adjust things too much

The problems with Gaelic Football are those  that other sports have successfully addressed.

One is that when possession is always more important than territory, then the game becomes one dimensional. So it's boring.

The other is that when a team in a winning position has little to no incentive to push further ahead: they can game manage the clock by retaining possession through little to no skill. Teams can gain reward from doing nothing. So it's boring.

This needs to be addressed. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: FermGael on May 29, 2022, 10:01:13 PM
There are no rule changes needed.

All that is needed is for referees to enforce the 4 steps or 3 seconds rule.

That would solve alot of the issues
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 10:05:07 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 09:42:06 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 09:00:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on May 29, 2022, 07:22:30 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

How on earth are you going to police all that? Ludicrous to suggest this. Far bigger problems needs sorting than that. Wasn't the prettiest to watch, but it was tense, and was more entertaining than what we got served yesterday. I'll take that game all day than the frauds of finals we saw yesterday.

You only need no.2. No team would be capable of playing keep ball inside an opponents half.

What is it achieving though? And what is it solving? Many time we try to solve an end result, and not the root cause. One game you don't like, and you want to bring in ridiculous rules, that will be tough to police. Leave the game alone. Simplify things if anything, not putting on rules to try and adjust things too much

The problems with Gaelic Football are those  that other sports have successfully addressed.

One is that when possession is always more important than territory, then the game becomes one dimensional. So it's boring.

The other is that when a team in a winning position has little to no incentive to push further ahead: they can game manage the clock by retaining possession through little to no skill. Teams can gain reward from doing nothing. So it's boring.

This needs to be addressed. Simple as that.

But how much of a problem is this, really? Is this a reaction to a one off game, or an ongoing problem. I don't overall see an issue, and we shouldn't make flip reactions to one game that people don't like. This game was a perfect storm for many reasons. I just don't see why we need wholesale rule changes for an issue that isn't a recurring problem.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 10:12:00 PM
It's now been a decade long problem. And the club game is still in the mire (in my county anyway). County game looked like it was moving forward but today will set it back again. It's the easy out for coaches. Being able to set up a team, within the rules of the game, to limit their opponents with no real requirement for skill, technique or intelligence, is such an easy out.

I don't blame coaches. I blame the rule book.

The balance of territory vs possession is not balanced in our sport. It needs realigned. Our sport will prosper when it happens.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 29, 2022, 10:17:55 PM
I know a good rule change . Make all the football clubs play hurling lol
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 29, 2022, 10:28:56 PM
Quote from: FermGael on May 29, 2022, 10:01:13 PM
There are no rule changes needed.

All that is needed is for referees to enforce the 4 steps or 3 seconds rule.

That would solve alot of the issues

3 second rule? It's 4 steps or time to take 4 steps? is there a 3 second rule?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: FermGael on May 29, 2022, 10:36:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 29, 2022, 10:28:56 PM
Quote from: FermGael on May 29, 2022, 10:01:13 PM
There are no rule changes needed.

All that is needed is for referees to enforce the 4 steps or 3 seconds rule.

That would solve alot of the issues

3 second rule? It's 4 steps or time to take 4 steps? is there a 3 second rule?

Only a fool breaks the three second rule
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on May 29, 2022, 10:43:10 PM
I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.





Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on May 29, 2022, 10:48:41 PM
Imagine if there had been social media in the 1980s.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tonto1888 on May 30, 2022, 08:13:32 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on May 29, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Time to resurrect this topic after the ulster final fiasco.

1) shot clock
2) no backpass over half way line
3) at least 5 players on the offensive half at all times
4) managers that consider entertainment and not just results.

Full credit to Derry but for a neutral that was brutal to watch its time for change

lets be honest, it wasnt a fiasco
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Wildweasel74 on May 30, 2022, 08:49:50 AM
Hard game to watch but it was a contest to the very last second. Running late home to watch the Kildare game and it was dusted after 15mins, Dublin didnt have to do anything 2nd half. Kerry scored 28pts on Limerick, that unheard off, that game was shocking. Ulster have had 5 different winners in 10yrs and every county been in a final, maybe down south need look at why they so bad provincial wise.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tiempo on May 30, 2022, 09:09:50 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 30, 2022, 08:49:50 AM
Hard game to watch but it was a contest to the very last second. Running late home to watch the Kildare game and it was dusted after 15mins, Dublin didnt have to do anything 2nd half. Kerry scored 28pts on Limerick, that unheard off, that game was shocking. Ulster have had 5 different winners in 10yrs and every county been in a final, maybe down south need look at why they so bad provincial wise.

In Leinster and Munster everyone has become subservient to Dublin and Kerry. The provincials don't need to change, counties need to get their house in order and up their game. The populations size is there in a lot of counties, and its not like they've a 50% unionist population that inherently tend not to play the games.

Monaghan is the fifth least populated county and they're at the top table, there's no excuse for the likes of Offaly, Laois, Westmeath, Wicklow, Tipp, Meath, Down and Cork.

Kevin McStay has some cheek on him calling it hard to watch, he managed a St Brigid's team that played Cross in All-Ireland club and they refused to play football, they got the win they craved and fair play, but there's no point him virtue signaling about rule changes and the state of the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on May 30, 2022, 09:10:05 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 29, 2022, 10:12:00 PM
It's now been a decade long problem. And the club game is still in the mire (in my county anyway). County game looked like it was moving forward but today will set it back again. It's the easy out for coaches. Being able to set up a team, within the rules of the game, to limit their opponents with no real requirement for skill, technique or intelligence, is such an easy out.

I don't blame coaches. I blame the rule book.

The balance of territory vs possession is not balanced in our sport. It needs realigned. Our sport will prosper when it happens.
Absolute agreement, rules need changed. I like the backpass rule, maybe combined with 2/3 players from each team in each half at all times.
It's worse at club than intercounty, where yesterday's problem was that unusually both teams were trying to do the same thing, leaving no opportunity to break at speed like Derry had done in their earlier games.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 30, 2022, 10:27:31 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.

Its a results business. Not an entertainment business and Derry are now good at the first
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 10:50:58 AM
The Ulster final was a tactical masterclass.
What a lot of people seem to want is 15v15 playing in their named positions with a individual battles dictating the game.

From I was a child we were always taught that playing as a team would get better results than playing as individuals. The tactics yesterday were testament to that. It might not have been visually a classic on TV, but at the game it was exciting, it had drama, it had skilful scores and tackling alongside some amazing individual performances. Derry full back, marking arguably one of the best footballers in the country in the last 10 years in Michael Murphy scored 3 points from play.

For me, it feels like it is people who don't understand the tactical side of the game who are calling for the rule changes so that the game can be watched without thinking.

The Kerry and Dublin victories were more of a bore fest than the Derry one.
Why are people not looking at rule changes there to level the playing field. Maybe they should be looking at handicaps for Div1 teams v Div2 teams?
An absolutely ridiculous idea of course, but the point is there are so many "experts" complaining and calling for change after watching Ulster, but the same "experts" don't mind Dublin or Kerry winning their province in a nothing 20pt victory. Where is the balance?

One could feel that opinions are slightly biased.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 30, 2022, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 10:50:58 AM
The Ulster final was a tactical masterclass.
What a lot of people seem to want is 15v15 playing in their named positions with a individual battles dictating the game.

From I was a child we were always taught that playing as a team would get better results than playing as individuals. The tactics yesterday were testament to that. It might not have been visually a classic on TV, but at the game it was exciting, it had drama, it had skilful scores and tackling alongside some amazing individual performances. Derry full back, marking arguably one of the best footballers in the country in the last 10 years in Michael Murphy scored 3 points from play.

For me, it feels like it is people who don't understand the tactical side of the game who are calling for the rule changes so that the game can be watched without thinking.

The Kerry and Dublin victories were more of a bore fest than the Derry one.
Why are people not looking at rule changes there to level the playing field. Maybe they should be looking at handicaps for Div1 teams v Div2 teams?
An absolutely ridiculous idea of course, but the point is there are so many "experts" complaining and calling for change after watching Ulster, but the same "experts" don't mind Dublin or Kerry winning their province in a nothing 20pt victory. Where is the balance?

One could feel that opinions are slightly biased.

People are, ie the end of provincial championships
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.
60s/00s same thing. I'm going to assume you don't actually play any more. I can tell you here and now there is not one senior county footballer who gives a fiddlers about how entertaining their matches are. Club players ditto, and I'm from neither a successful club or county. It's all well and good proposing rule changes but any realist (ie anyone still playing) will tell you that it will not result in the actual changes you want - just ask Jarlath Burns and anyone else with a fetish for highcatching how the mark are working out. If you need to satisfy your insatiable nostalgic cravings perhaps stick to watching your club's reserve side
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
A "tactical masterclass"?

You need your head seen to.

A game between evenly matched sides, ended in a draw, and the younger fitter team that is on an upward curve, won in extra time.

Without managers, without tactics, this would have been a close match, but it would have been entertaining.

So what have we (spectators, supporters, club people) gained from this "tactical masterclass"? I'll tell you what..... absolutely f**k all squared.

Outcomes haven't changed since Jimmy ruined football. It's just become exceptionally boring to reach the same conclusion.

Stick your "tactical masterclass" where the sun doesn't shine.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 11:07:03 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 30, 2022, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 10:50:58 AM
The Ulster final was a tactical masterclass.
What a lot of people seem to want is 15v15 playing in their named positions with a individual battles dictating the game.

From I was a child we were always taught that playing as a team would get better results than playing as individuals. The tactics yesterday were testament to that. It might not have been visually a classic on TV, but at the game it was exciting, it had drama, it had skilful scores and tackling alongside some amazing individual performances. Derry full back, marking arguably one of the best footballers in the country in the last 10 years in Michael Murphy scored 3 points from play.

For me, it feels like it is people who don't understand the tactical side of the game who are calling for the rule changes so that the game can be watched without thinking.

The Kerry and Dublin victories were more of a bore fest than the Derry one.
Why are people not looking at rule changes there to level the playing field. Maybe they should be looking at handicaps for Div1 teams v Div2 teams?
An absolutely ridiculous idea of course, but the point is there are so many "experts" complaining and calling for change after watching Ulster, but the same "experts" don't mind Dublin or Kerry winning their province in a nothing 20pt victory. Where is the balance?

One could feel that opinions are slightly biased.

People are, ie the end of provincial championships

Ok, let me re-phrase that then.
How does ending the provincial championship change the way teams are going to set up and play?
The only thing it will do is remove the chance of teams like Derry winning any silverware and move games like yesterday to a latter part of the championship. How does that improve anything for anyone?

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Estimator on May 30, 2022, 11:08:59 AM
Any rule changes being mooted on here will easily be worked around by any decent manager or be v difficult to monitor, putting more pressure on referees.. The 'rules' would probably turn it into an even more negative encounter.

Shot Clock: Right lads every one back to defend when they have the ball. Force them to use up the time.

No back pass across the half way: Defenders in a line just inside their half, hit and isolate players force them to pass back

Keeping offensive players in opposition half: who is going to look at this, an extra match official?? Also gives a huge advantage to the other team when attacking, they can have 3 extra men who can attack across the half way line without anyone tracking them back.. ridiculous stuff.

Was at the game and it was a tight, tense encountered. Barely noticed the time passing. Plenty of atmosphere and noise where I was. I'd say that those at the game and not being influenced by the negativity from some of the commentary, would be amazed at peoples opinion on the match.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:12:03 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.
60s/00s same thing. I'm going to assume you don't actually play any more. I can tell you here and now there is not one senior county footballer who gives a fiddlers about how entertaining their matches are. Club players ditto, and I'm from neither a successful club or county. It's all well and good proposing rule changes but any realist (ie anyone still playing) will tell you that it will not result in the actual changes you want - just ask Jarlath Burns and anyone else with a fetish for highcatching how the mark are working out. If you need to satisfy your insatiable nostalgic cravings perhaps stick to watching your club's reserve side

Woah lad.

When you're older you'll realise that every generation of athletes tells themselves that they train harder , play harder, and are more dedicated than the ones before. They might even be right too... but the gap is never as big as imagined.

No successful team in ANY sport has put entertainment ahead of results.

But sports themselves don't become successful or sustain interest unless they provide entertainment. And where we ended up in Clones yesterday, for long periods of the match, was no more interesting or stimulating than watching men taking turns to carry a concrete pillar around a yard.

If the rules aren't changed soon by your dinosaurs, the players themselves will start calling for it to happen. The reason being? Empty stadia.

This will happen.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 11:12:11 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
A "tactical masterclass"?

You need your head seen to.

A game between evenly matched sides, ended in a draw, and the younger fitter team that is on an upward curve, won in extra time.

Without managers, without tactics, this would have been a close match, but it would have been entertaining.

So what have we (spectators, supporters, club people) gained from this "tactical masterclass"? I'll tell you what..... absolutely f**k all squared.

Outcomes haven't changed since Jimmy ruined football. It's just become exceptionally boring to reach the same conclusion.

Stick your "tactical masterclass" where the sun doesn't shine.

;D
So what you're saying is, regardless of tactics we'd have had the same result yesterday? Or in any game for that matter? Better footballers will always win?
If we make the comparison to the 00s as you've already stated you'd like to get back to, the widely held perception of Tyrone (and to a lesser extent Armagh) was that their tactics of a blanket defence (or puke football) resulted in victories against better players.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 11:12:11 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
A "tactical masterclass"?

You need your head seen to.

A game between evenly matched sides, ended in a draw, and the younger fitter team that is on an upward curve, won in extra time.

Without managers, without tactics, this would have been a close match, but it would have been entertaining.

So what have we (spectators, supporters, club people) gained from this "tactical masterclass"? I'll tell you what..... absolutely f**k all squared.

Outcomes haven't changed since Jimmy ruined football. It's just become exceptionally boring to reach the same conclusion.

Stick your "tactical masterclass" where the sun doesn't shine.

;D
So what you're saying is, regardless of tactics we'd have had the same result yesterday? Or in any game for that matter? Better footballers will always win?
If we make the comparison to the 00s as you've already stated you'd like to get back to, the widely held perception of Tyrone (and to a lesser extent Armagh) was that their tactics of a blanket defence (or puke football) resulted in victories against better players.

Just saying.

So why didn't Kerry just reverse the poles by applying better tactics then?

Somewhere along the line people should just accept that Tyrone had better players than Kerry throughout the noughties, which is why they won every game of note between the pair.

But it was close enough in terms of talent to require Tyrone to be physically flying and ultra committed to win any of those matches.

Tactics? Apart from the rather obvious deployment of the McMahons onto Star and Walsh, it wasn't really tactics. Mainly hard work and loads of energy.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:29:35 AM
Also TBrick.

Mickey Harte stuck a tactical noose around Tyrone for the last 6-7 years of his tenure; one that was extraordinarily rigid, and left no room for creativity /error.

But as a tactic, it didn't work against teams with better players. And like most people in Ireland, I'd been lulled into believing that Tyrone didn't have the individuals to win an AI.

Exit Harte. Exit Colm Cavanagh. Enter a management team that gave them a bit of rope to do whatever they liked with. And somewhere around half time in last year's AI final, it dawned on most of us that Tyrone had a lot of brilliant players, none moreso than in a fullback line that had no need for the extra protection of the previous 5 years.

Tyrone wouldn't have beaten Kerry in the semi last year with Harte at the helm. He'd have been so busy trying not to lose that he would never have tried to win.

——

Football turned a corner that day. If a new management team can win an AI with a relatively open game plan that trusts players to have a go, it should have inspired other counties to do likewise.

Yesterday's mess in Clones is likely to set us back again.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: marty34 on May 30, 2022, 11:30:04 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 30, 2022, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 10:50:58 AM
The Ulster final was a tactical masterclass.
What a lot of people seem to want is 15v15 playing in their named positions with a individual battles dictating the game.

From I was a child we were always taught that playing as a team would get better results than playing as individuals. The tactics yesterday were testament to that. It might not have been visually a classic on TV, but at the game it was exciting, it had drama, it had skilful scores and tackling alongside some amazing individual performances. Derry full back, marking arguably one of the best footballers in the country in the last 10 years in Michael Murphy scored 3 points from play.

For me, it feels like it is people who don't understand the tactical side of the game who are calling for the rule changes so that the game can be watched without thinking.

The Kerry and Dublin victories were more of a bore fest than the Derry one.
Why are people not looking at rule changes there to level the playing field. Maybe they should be looking at handicaps for Div1 teams v Div2 teams?
An absolutely ridiculous idea of course, but the point is there are so many "experts" complaining and calling for change after watching Ulster, but the same "experts" don't mind Dublin or Kerry winning their province in a nothing 20pt victory. Where is the balance?

One could feel that opinions are slightly biased.

People are, ie the end of provincial championships

Is that not what the Tailltean Cup is about?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on May 30, 2022, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on May 29, 2022, 10:43:10 PM
I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.

No back passes into or within your own half. The ball can only go forward?
A player has possession on his own 40 and 2 men tackle him he can't lay the ball back to a supporting player,  he has to try to take them on or give up possession?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on May 30, 2022, 04:42:41 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:12:03 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.
60s/00s same thing. I'm going to assume you don't actually play any more. I can tell you here and now there is not one senior county footballer who gives a fiddlers about how entertaining their matches are. Club players ditto, and I'm from neither a successful club or county. It's all well and good proposing rule changes but any realist (ie anyone still playing) will tell you that it will not result in the actual changes you want - just ask Jarlath Burns and anyone else with a fetish for highcatching how the mark are working out. If you need to satisfy your insatiable nostalgic cravings perhaps stick to watching your club's reserve side

Woah lad.

When you're older you'll realise that every generation of athletes tells themselves that they train harder , play harder, and are more dedicated than the ones before. They might even be right too... but the gap is never as big as imagined.

No successful team in ANY sport has put entertainment ahead of results.

But sports themselves don't become successful or sustain interest unless they provide entertainment. And where we ended up in Clones yesterday, for long periods of the match, was no more interesting or stimulating than watching men taking turns to carry a concrete pillar around a yard.

If the rules aren't changed soon by your dinosaurs, the players themselves will start calling for it to happen. The reason being? Empty stadia.

This will happen.
There's also the enjoyment of playing, players can buy in for a while, but eventually they get sick of it.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on May 30, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
has anyone ever suggested bringing in 2 pointers if you score from a certain distance also if brought afl   behinds  1 point for a behind 2 points for over the bar maybe then 4 a goal or just 3
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 07:06:00 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 11:12:11 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
A "tactical masterclass"?

You need your head seen to.

A game between evenly matched sides, ended in a draw, and the younger fitter team that is on an upward curve, won in extra time.

Without managers, without tactics, this would have been a close match, but it would have been entertaining.

So what have we (spectators, supporters, club people) gained from this "tactical masterclass"? I'll tell you what..... absolutely f**k all squared.

Outcomes haven't changed since Jimmy ruined football. It's just become exceptionally boring to reach the same conclusion.

Stick your "tactical masterclass" where the sun doesn't shine.

;D
So what you're saying is, regardless of tactics we'd have had the same result yesterday? Or in any game for that matter? Better footballers will always win?
If we make the comparison to the 00s as you've already stated you'd like to get back to, the widely held perception of Tyrone (and to a lesser extent Armagh) was that their tactics of a blanket defence (or puke football) resulted in victories against better players.

Just saying.

So why didn't Kerry just reverse the poles by applying better tactics then?

Somewhere along the line people should just accept that Tyrone had better players than Kerry throughout the noughties, which is why they won every game of note between the pair.

But it was close enough in terms of talent to require Tyrone to be physically flying and ultra committed to win any of those matches.

Tactics? Apart from the rather obvious deployment of the McMahons onto Star and Walsh, it wasn't really tactics. Mainly hard work and loads of energy.

Kerry didnt have the tactical knowhow to come up with tactics to counteract the blanket.
They also had a sense of arrogance around their belief that they were so good they could just play over the blanket.
The rest is history. Over time, even Kerry deployed the blanket and when that happened the games were far from classics.

That doesn't mean that man for man, Tyrone had better players than Kerry in 03.
Perhaps they did in 08. But without doubt, tactics and work rate won Tyrone the 03 AI.

The point is, with all things being equal a good management team will seek to gain advantage by using tactics which will make it difficult for the other side and which will ultimately give you an edge.
No matter what rule comes in, that will obviously always be the case.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 30, 2022, 07:12:40 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:29:35 AM
Also TBrick.

Mickey Harte stuck a tactical noose around Tyrone for the last 6-7 years of his tenure; one that was extraordinarily rigid, and left no room for creativity /error.

But as a tactic, it didn't work against teams with better players. And like most people in Ireland, I'd been lulled into believing that Tyrone didn't have the individuals to win an AI.

Exit Harte. Exit Colm Cavanagh. Enter a management team that gave them a bit of rope to do whatever they liked with. And somewhere around half time in last year's AI final, it dawned on most of us that Tyrone had a lot of brilliant players, none moreso than in a fullback line that had no need for the extra protection of the previous 5 years.

Tyrone wouldn't have beaten Kerry in the semi last year with Harte at the helm. He'd have been so busy trying not to lose that he would never have tried to win.

——

Football turned a corner that day. If a new management team can win an AI with a relatively open game plan that trusts players to have a go, it should have inspired other counties to do likewise.

Yesterday's mess in Clones is likely to set us back again.

Completely agree on Harte.
He was stuck in his ways and couldn't trust his players enough to change his tactics and it severely restricted Tyrone.
But football turning a corner in the Tyrone v Kerry game? What are you on about?
Last year was as much about Mayo's loss as it was about Tyrone's win.
Mayo had their final against the Dubs and had they brought the same game to the final Tyrone would not have won.
I know quite a few Tyrone men who I consider to be better informed than me on Tyrone football and most think it was a lucky AI last year.
Time will tell how good that team is, but for now the jury is out.

Yesterday in Clones was hopefully the beginning of the changing of the guard, but time will tell on that one too.

For now we'll enjoy the win and who know what will happen next.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on May 30, 2022, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2022, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on May 29, 2022, 10:43:10 PM
I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.

No back passes into or within your own half. The ball can only go forward?
A player has possession on his own 40 and 2 men tackle him he can't lay the ball back to a supporting player,  he has to try to take them on or give up possession?
I think the proposal is that once the ball is over the half way line, you can't play it back into your half, easy to police. But I'm not sure there's a problem with the scenario you painted anyway!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: restorepride on May 30, 2022, 10:42:39 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 11:12:03 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 30, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: general_lee on May 30, 2022, 10:06:11 AM
I think what most people who want rules changes really want is a time machine back to the 1960s.

No. The football of the noughties. That's where we need to get to. Not the 60s.

Those who don't wish rules to evolve are either a) from a county that is successful under the current rules and doesn't want a reset, even if it's for the best, or b) so institutionalised after a decade of utterly crap football that they now confuse a tight match as entertainment.
60s/00s same thing. I'm going to assume you don't actually play any more. I can tell you here and now there is not one senior county footballer who gives a fiddlers about how entertaining their matches are. Club players ditto, and I'm from neither a successful club or county. It's all well and good proposing rule changes but any realist (ie anyone still playing) will tell you that it will not result in the actual changes you want - just ask Jarlath Burns and anyone else with a fetish for highcatching how the mark are working out. If you need to satisfy your insatiable nostalgic cravings perhaps stick to watching your club's reserve side

Woah lad.

When you're older you'll realise that every generation of athletes tells themselves that they train harder , play harder, and are more dedicated than the ones before. They might even be right too... but the gap is never as big as imagined.

No successful team in ANY sport has put entertainment ahead of results.

But sports themselves don't become successful or sustain interest unless they provide entertainment. And where we ended up in Clones yesterday, for long periods of the match, was no more interesting or stimulating than watching men taking turns to carry a concrete pillar around a yard.

If the rules aren't changed soon by your dinosaurs, the players themselves will start calling for it to happen. The reason being? Empty stadia.

This will happen.
Good point. Clones was really empty yesterday. When you are older you will learn to think before you lift concrete.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: themac_23 on May 31, 2022, 08:06:10 AM
Said it before here, the main tweak needed is the cant play the ball back after you cross the halfway line means teams can actually press without a team just knocking it back 40 yards. we had no score in the first 10 mins of the Ulster final, so much of that was no pressure put on the ball and spraying backwards passes It was honestly the worst 10 mins of GAA ive ever watched, id rather watch my son at the go games.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tiempo on May 31, 2022, 09:51:44 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on May 31, 2022, 08:06:10 AM
Said it before here, the main tweak needed is the cant play the ball back after you cross the halfway line means teams can actually press without a team just knocking it back 40 yards. we had no score in the first 10 mins of the Ulster final, so much of that was no pressure put on the ball and spraying backwards passes It was honestly the worst 10 mins of GAA ive ever watched, id rather watch my son at the go games.

Nope - Offaly, Laois, Westmeath, Wicklow, Tipp, Meath, and Cork need to get off their arse and stop lying down to Dublin and Kerry, that is all.

Down too up north, but at least teams like Fermanagh and Cavan have a bit of fight and pride in them and don't just roll over and have their bellies tickled.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on May 31, 2022, 09:58:50 AM
Quote from: onefineday on May 30, 2022, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 30, 2022, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on May 29, 2022, 10:43:10 PM
I believe in any future changes should be limited, and tested, and only considered if they make a referees life easier.
Therefore I would make two rule changes that will make the game easier to referee, based on the premise above from
Wobbler.
1. No back passes inside or into your own half. This promotes getting the ball as quickly as possible into the attacking half of the field , and keeps more forwards up front . It's easy to police on any pitch by one referee. It's even simpler than the current specific "no pass back to the keeper from a kick-out".
2. Black card is for a cynical foul taking a player to the ground (whether pull, push or trip ) . I would ditch the blocking the runner as a black card , as it is too much open to interpretation and is largely ignored by referees now.

I watched the game on bbc today . I found it intriguing and entertaining, tough but sporting, with no little skill eg point scoring , tackling, defensive brilliance, tactical nous. 32 scores. There was a full house in a brilliant venue and a great GAA county won their first senior title in 24 years. Genuine role models such as mckaigue and Rodgers who have been playing football and hurling ~12 months of the year for the past 10 years, with little Intercounty reward .
I didn't listen to Rte and it's only when I logged in here that I realised how brutal a game it was😂🤦🏻‍♂️.
We were treated to over two hours last night of soccer with only 1 score , and a team that totally dominated going home with nothing ( that rarely happens in GAA).
Rte GAA coverage is an absolute disgrace with unfunny soundbites , sensationalism, arrogant former stars regailing their past glories & lazy analysis , whilst ignoring the elephants in the room , financial Doping and the provincial cakewalks in Munster and Leinster giving Dublin and Kerry an advantage every year. Give me Marty Clarke and Peter Canavan's analysis before Seán cavanagh and Darragh O'Shea.

I was a neutral today and really enjoyed the game on the Bbc.

Dublin cakewalks in their half empty national stadium home venue will destroy our game sooner than a gladiatorial derby in a neutral arena bursting at the seams.

No back passes into or within your own half. The ball can only go forward?
A player has possession on his own 40 and 2 men tackle him he can't lay the ball back to a supporting player,  he has to try to take them on or give up possession?
I think the proposal is that once the ball is over the half way line, you can't play it back into your half, easy to police. But I'm not sure there's a problem with the scenario you painted anyway!
No back passes is very different from no passing back over the half way line. The latter is easy to police, the former comes down to judgement calls about the angle of the pass.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: oakleaflad on May 31, 2022, 10:00:12 AM
Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Keyser soze on May 31, 2022, 10:24:54 AM
Maybe change the rules so that teams like Kildare could grow a set of balls instead of standing watching like a group of U14s as Dublin waltzed past them to score 5 goals. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Derryman forever on May 31, 2022, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: oakleaflad on May 31, 2022, 10:00:12 AM
Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.


It was a great game and the television coverage on BBC was by adults with an adult understanding of the arm wrestle  this game was gonna be. There is far too many people being influenced by RTEs negative parochial commentary. If your enjoyment is only about high fielding and cricket scores, if that is all you appreciate, you would be better to watch Aussie rules from the eighties. But even Aus
Aussie rules has evolved to an appreciation of tactics and controlling games.

If you must be changing the rules for the so called "purists" then maybe we could divide the pitch into 15 parts so that we can go back to playing catch and kick like in the 50s and 60s man on man and no double teaming.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tiempo on May 31, 2022, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on May 31, 2022, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: oakleaflad on May 31, 2022, 10:00:12 AM
Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.


It was a great game and the television coverage on BBC was by adults with an adult understanding of the arm wrestle  this game was gonna be. There is far too many people being influenced by RTEs negative parochial commentary. If your enjoyment is only about high fielding and cricket scores, if that is all you appreciate, you would be better to watch Aussie rules from the eighties. But even Aus
Aussie rules has evolved to an appreciation of tactics and controlling games.

If you must be changing the rules for the so called "purists" then maybe we could divide the pitch into 15 parts so that we can go back to playing catch and kick like in the 50s and 60s man on man and no double teaming.

Not for the first time Kevin McStay has a pop at Ulster teams style of play after sending St Brigids out to play anti-football against Crossmaglen in the club All-Ireland

Wicklow is the 16th most populated county in Ireland, more than Mayo, Louth, Cavan, Roscommon  and Monaghan, and they can't muster up an effort in either code, would their county team even win a Tyrone or a Derry club championship?

RTE will never address the apathy towards the games in the south but apparently there's a need to remove the provincials, when Ulster is thriving and showing whats possible.

More than a few in the south would happily take a return to the days when teams from the north went down and got a pat on the head and a kick on the arse back up the road.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: snoopdog on May 31, 2022, 10:51:12 AM
Let's change the rules to prevent q cpetitive game of football.  Loads of scores doesn't mean a good game. Sure it would've been a much better spectacle had Derry or Donegal won by 30 points. I telly enjoyed it and I watched it on bbc. Rte have an agenda. If your not kerry Dublin mayo or munster hurling then you don't matter.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on May 31, 2022, 11:08:33 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on May 31, 2022, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: oakleaflad on May 31, 2022, 10:00:12 AM
Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.


It was a great game and the television coverage on BBC was by adults with an adult understanding of the arm wrestle  this game was gonna be. There is far too many people being influenced by RTEs negative parochial commentary. If your enjoyment is only about high fielding and cricket scores, if that is all you appreciate, you would be better to watch Aussie rules from the eighties. But even Aus
Aussie rules has evolved to an appreciation of tactics and controlling games.

If you must be changing the rules for the so called "purists" then maybe we could divide the pitch into 15 parts so that we can go back to playing catch and kick like in the 50s and 60s man on man and no double teaming.



This is a great idea. Draw 15 boxes on the pitch and each player must stay within their assigned box. One player from each team in each box. That'll show those boys in Ulster how football should be played.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: JoeSoap on May 31, 2022, 11:13:03 AM
Quote from: oakleaflad on May 31, 2022, 10:00:12 AM
Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.

Agree. Was a rough first 10 minutes but Donegal missed 3/4 chances to get on the board in those first exchanges before the Derry goal. It went through periods after that but to be honest the intensity and tackling, I think sometimes the players were just taking a wee break. Especially from Donegal anyway, the Derry boys looked incredibly fit and well conditioned.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: rosnarun on May 31, 2022, 11:28:01 AM
theres a very simple way of getting round all this  with out changing any rules .
just the refs to stop being pussys and stop blowing for frees for the smallest contact

that i beleve would produce the kind of football every want to play and watch
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
Few lads on here would have a DUP mindset about this?

"Change, what the f**k do we want change for? You, you should shut the f**k up. I've a cake to finish".
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: JoG2 on May 31, 2022, 11:57:48 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
Few lads on here would have a DUP mindset about this?

"Change, what the f**k do we want change for? You, you should shut the f**k up. I've a cake to finish".

What's a 'relatively open game plan'? Is that how you setup your teams? Does it work with all groups of players @ County / club level? Does it increase a 20 point average / game? Is it firm enough to withstand the furnace of an Ulster Final with everything at stake? Send on your PowerPoint, be interesting viewing.

How should Derry have setup on Sunday using this strategy to win with the players at the stage of collective development that they are? Would Derry have beaten the reigning All Ireland Champions, Monaghan and Donegal by more?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 31, 2022, 12:03:09 PM
The rules dont need changed, teams just need to work out to beat the current system. Kicking a ball from distance would be a start. Derry shouldnt apologise for it, its results business lads, people dont have to watch or attend the games
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 12:10:54 PM
No team or coach should apologise for it.

They're playing within the rules.

A flaw in the rules has granted teams the ability to retain possession on an endless cycle, with no requirement for skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism, to do so. 

The paucity of skill though is more than matched by its effectiveness.

I'll never blame a team for using it to their advantage. It's the right call.

The rule book is the problem.

It's what needs fixed.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tiempo on May 31, 2022, 12:10:58 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
Few lads on here would have a DUP mindset about this?

"Change, what the f**k do we want change for? You, you should shut the f**k up. I've a cake to finish".

The qualifiers
The Tommy Murphy Cup
The super 8
The mark
The black card
The black card revision
The advanced mark
The penalty shootout
The cynical foul rule (penalty)
The advantage
The kickout
The Tailteann

All this and Offaly, Laois, Westmeath, Wicklow, Tipp, Meath, and Cork still can't get their shit together.

How about a rule for growing a pair.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: JoG2 on May 31, 2022, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 31, 2022, 12:03:09 PM
The rules dont need changed, teams just need to work out to beat the current system. Kicking a ball from distance would be a start. Derry shouldnt apologise for it, its results business lads, people dont have to watch or attend the games

From where to where, and more importantly, to who and when?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 31, 2022, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on May 31, 2022, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 31, 2022, 12:03:09 PM
The rules dont need changed, teams just need to work out to beat the current system. Kicking a ball from distance would be a start. Derry shouldnt apologise for it, its results business lads, people dont have to watch or attend the games

From where to where, and more importantly, to who and when?

Murphy and I think maybe Rogers both shot from outside the blanket(in a quarterback position) on Sunday. Just banged ball over heads of everyone hurling style,  just recycle to the kicker. Obviously its risk based, if you miss or fall short you cough up possession. McCarron(done well I thought btw) ran right up in front of net last day and couldnt kick it over from 10 yards and recycled. The art of kicking needs worked on. But this is just my ow opinions , probably talking nonsense.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Keyser soze on May 31, 2022, 01:06:02 PM
Can somebody let me know what rule changes will solve the issue of a dour arm wrestle like the Ulster final and at the same time solve the issue of the turkey shoot that was the Leinster final?

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on May 31, 2022, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 31, 2022, 01:06:02 PM
Can somebody let me know what rule changes will solve the issue of a dour arm wrestle like the Ulster final and at the same time solve the issue of the turkey shoot that was the Leinster final?

I did, give them 30 sticks
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 04:52:19 PM
Quote from: tiempo on May 31, 2022, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on May 31, 2022, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: oakleaflad on May 31, 2022, 10:00:12 AM
Some overreaction on here. Was at the game and it was nowhere near as bad as is being made out.


It was a great game and the television coverage on BBC was by adults with an adult understanding of the arm wrestle  this game was gonna be. There is far too many people being influenced by RTEs negative parochial commentary. If your enjoyment is only about high fielding and cricket scores, if that is all you appreciate, you would be better to watch Aussie rules from the eighties. But even Aus
Aussie rules has evolved to an appreciation of tactics and controlling games.

If you must be changing the rules for the so called "purists" then maybe we could divide the pitch into 15 parts so that we can go back to playing catch and kick like in the 50s and 60s man on man and no double teaming.

Not for the first time Kevin McStay has a pop at Ulster teams style of play after sending St Brigids out to play anti-football against Crossmaglen in the club All-Ireland

Wicklow is the 16th most populated county in Ireland, more than Mayo, Louth, Cavan, Roscommon  and Monaghan, and they can't muster up an effort in either code, would their county team even win a Tyrone or a Derry club championship?

RTE will never address the apathy towards the games in the south but apparently there's a need to remove the provincials, when Ulster is thriving and showing whats possible.

More than a few in the south would happily take a return to the days when teams from the north went down and got a pat on the head and a kick on the arse back up the road.

That's it in a nutshell.
If they're going to change anything with the provincials, take a look at Ulster and use that as the template for the rest of the provinces.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 04:56:52 PM
The template is the same FFS!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 12:10:54 PM
No team or coach should apologise for it.

They're playing within the rules.

A flaw in the rules has granted teams the ability to retain possession on an endless cycle, with no requirement for skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism, to do so. 

The paucity of skill though is more than matched by its effectiveness.


I'll never blame a team for using it to their advantage. It's the right call.

The rule book is the problem.

It's what needs fixed.

What specific flaw are you talking about?
Are you seriously saying there was no skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism in the Ulster final? If that is what you're saying, I think you must have been watching another game or you have a complete lack of knowledge around what these things are.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 06:11:49 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 12:10:54 PM
No team or coach should apologise for it.

They're playing within the rules.

A flaw in the rules has granted teams the ability to retain possession on an endless cycle, with no requirement for skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism, to do so. 

The paucity of skill though is more than matched by its effectiveness.


I'll never blame a team for using it to their advantage. It's the right call.

The rule book is the problem.

It's what needs fixed.

What specific flaw are you talking about?
Are you seriously saying there was no skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism in the Ulster final? If that is what you're saying, I think you must have been watching another game or you have a complete lack of knowledge around what these things are.

Knowledge? After 10 years of watching sideways football? Wind your neck in and take off the emperor's new clothes while you're at it. These are not complex tactics.

In terms of specific flaws. It's the regular period of 2-3 mins of fist-pass ball retention, where player a saunters slowly to half way, releases a lateral fist pass 5m before any contact is possible, to the unmarked player b, who turns and caresses a pass towards his own unmarked goalkeeper, who hits a short lateral pass to the unmarked player c, who repeats what player a did, while player a slowly saunters back into his start position.

There is no skill in this. There is no technique in this. There is no athleticism in this. Monkeys could be trained to do this.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2022, 06:14:31 PM
Ban or seriously restrict the fkn handpass!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 06:11:49 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 12:10:54 PM
No team or coach should apologise for it.

They're playing within the rules.

A flaw in the rules has granted teams the ability to retain possession on an endless cycle, with no requirement for skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism, to do so. 

The paucity of skill though is more than matched by its effectiveness.


I'll never blame a team for using it to their advantage. It's the right call.

The rule book is the problem.

It's what needs fixed.

What specific flaw are you talking about?
Are you seriously saying there was no skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism in the Ulster final? If that is what you're saying, I think you must have been watching another game or you have a complete lack of knowledge around what these things are.

Knowledge? After 10 years of watching sideways football? Wind your neck in and take off the emperor's new clothes while you're at it. These are not complex tactics.

In terms of specific flaws. It's the regular period of 2-3 mins of fist-pass ball retention, where player a saunters slowly to half way, releases a lateral fist pass 5m before any contact is possible, to the unmarked player b, who turns and caresses a pass towards his own unmarked goalkeeper, who hits a short lateral pass to the unmarked player c, who repeats what player a did, while player a slowly saunters back into his start position.

There is no skill in this. There is no technique in this. There is no athleticism in this. Monkeys could be trained to do this.

So again I'll ask the question, which flaw in rules are you talking about? There is a rule book, which rule needs fixed in your opinion to rectify all that is wrong with the game?

Emperor's New clothes? Come on, my opinion is different than yours and you resort to that type of comment.

The rules don't need changed, teams need to adapt to counteract. Simple.





Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: GAABoardMod5 on May 31, 2022, 07:20:04 PM
All free kicks and sideline kicks must go forward.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: J70 on May 31, 2022, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2022, 06:14:31 PM
Ban or seriously restrict the fkn handpass!

There's nothing wrong with a quick series of handpasses to open a defense up or work your way out of trouble.

Its not the number per se (within reason).

Its where a team is fumbling back and forth across the midfield, taking up two minutes or so trying (often in vain) to work a hole through multiple layers of defenders.

My own county is one of the (if not THE) worst offenders.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 31, 2022, 08:44:25 PM
Teams need to press the player on the ball, it's 15 on 15 if the goalkeeper comes up and picks out an attacker that'll allow someone to press further up..

Teams in club games are all using the same tactics, most games I'll average around 4 miles refereeing, when teams employ these tactics it's vastly reduced. Christ it's got to the point when and attacking team has the ball I get into position behind him!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: befair on May 31, 2022, 09:10:32 PM
Reduce teams to 13-a-side. Would give more space for attacking football, and would also give weaker clubs and counties a better chance. A small county/club might have 13 good players, less likely to have 15.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Stall the Bailer on May 31, 2022, 09:15:39 PM
Quote from: GAABoardMod5 on May 31, 2022, 07:20:04 PM
All free kicks and sideline kicks must go forward.
This would reward the teams that fouls. All men behind ball as they have to kick it towards you and the team taking the free would have one man less to win the kick as someone needs to take the free.  :-\
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 31, 2022, 09:34:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 31, 2022, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2022, 06:14:31 PM
Ban or seriously restrict the fkn handpass!

There's nothing wrong with a quick series of handpasses to open a defense up or work your way out of trouble.

Its not the number per se (within reason).

Its where a team is fumbling back and forth across the midfield, taking up two minutes or so trying (often in vain) to work a hole through multiple layers of defenders.

My own county is one of the (if not THE) worst offenders.
It's the typical dinosaurs who complain about the hand passing. These people prefer a high hall belted with a 50/50 success rate. Normally identifiable at club games by the roar of "send her in" the minute they approach the half way line. Muttering that this is the way the game should be played.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 31, 2022, 08:44:25 PM
Teams need to press the player on the ball, it's 15 on 15 if the goalkeeper comes up and picks out an attacker that'll allow someone to press further up..

Teams in club games are all using the same tactics, most games I'll average around 4 miles refereeing, when teams employ these tactics it's vastly reduced. Christ it's got to the point when and attacking team has the ball I get into position behind him!

The problem, they don't need to press. If both teams adopt the same retreat-en-masse at one end, recycle-forever at the other end approach, then the game will usually be tight.

There's limited incentive to go forward unless you're chasing a score.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 10:18:20 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 31, 2022, 09:34:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 31, 2022, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2022, 06:14:31 PM
Ban or seriously restrict the fkn handpass!

There's nothing wrong with a quick series of handpasses to open a defense up or work your way out of trouble.

Its not the number per se (within reason).

Its where a team is fumbling back and forth across the midfield, taking up two minutes or so trying (often in vain) to work a hole through multiple layers of defenders.

My own county is one of the (if not THE) worst offenders.
It's the typical dinosaurs who complain about the hand passing. These people prefer a high hall belted with a 50/50 success rate. Normally identifiable at club games by the roar of "send her in" the minute they approach the half way line. Muttering that this is the way the game should be played.

There are some "dinosaurs" like that.

Most of us, these days, just want to see forward intent. This doesn't have the take the form of a kick pass, let alone a 50:50 hoke. We just want to see teams giving it a go.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 06:11:49 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on May 31, 2022, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 12:10:54 PM
No team or coach should apologise for it.

They're playing within the rules.

A flaw in the rules has granted teams the ability to retain possession on an endless cycle, with no requirement for skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism, to do so. 

The paucity of skill though is more than matched by its effectiveness.


I'll never blame a team for using it to their advantage. It's the right call.

The rule book is the problem.

It's what needs fixed.

What specific flaw are you talking about?
Are you seriously saying there was no skill, technique, aptitude or athleticism in the Ulster final? If that is what you're saying, I think you must have been watching another game or you have a complete lack of knowledge around what these things are.

Knowledge? After 10 years of watching sideways football? Wind your neck in and take off the emperor's new clothes while you're at it. These are not complex tactics.

In terms of specific flaws. It's the regular period of 2-3 mins of fist-pass ball retention, where player a saunters slowly to half way, releases a lateral fist pass 5m before any contact is possible, to the unmarked player b, who turns and caresses a pass towards his own unmarked goalkeeper, who hits a short lateral pass to the unmarked player c, who repeats what player a did, while player a slowly saunters back into his start position.

There is no skill in this. There is no technique in this. There is no athleticism in this. Monkeys could be trained to do this.

So again I'll ask the question, which flaw in rules are you talking about? There is a rule book, which rule needs fixed in your opinion to rectify all that is wrong with the game?

Emperor's New clothes? Come on, my opinion is different than yours and you resort to that type of comment.

The rules don't need changed, teams need to adapt to counteract. Simple.

Everything that's wrong with the modern game is an unintended consequence of kicking frees and sidelines from the hand back in 91-92.

It took coaches/teams almost 5 years to wean themselves off lumping it off the ground. It was good that they learned. Then another 5 years or so before coaches/teams cottoned on that setting yourself up for counter-attacking football was a viable strategy. This was actually a brilliant advancement. Then 8-10 years or so later Jimmy cottoned on that you could actually suffocate an opponent and win matches by refusing to attack unless it was absolutely on your own terms.  It's not football. It's a chess for retards.

It poisoned football and the rule makers have not yet identified a method for rectifying it.

I'm in no way advocating a return to kicking from the ground. I've no no interest in watching a sport in which a 50:50 hoof could be considered the most effective tactical approach. That's daft too.

But we absolutely do need to review or introduce some rules to see if the balance of possession vs territory can be restored, it only a little. To give the game more variety. To give everyone a tactical  conundrum  to solve that is more complex that to hold onto the ball for minutes at a time without attempting  to go forward.

I've long been an advocate of not being able to pass the ball back past either 45. I'm sure this rule change would too have unintended consequences. But the brute force point behind the change would be well intended: if you're prepared to push up on your opponents, you can force them into an increasingly smaller playing area - which would limit their ability to retain possession in the current skill-free way. The punishment for a transgression would be a 45 to the other team.

And just as importantly, it's an idiot proof idea. It's the half court rule. It never needs explained twice. It doesn't need more officials than a referee to police.

There must be 200+ adult football competitions across Ireland each season. We only need to try this out in a couple, to see if it's an improvement. And if not. Then back to the drawing board.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on May 31, 2022, 11:13:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 10:18:20 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on May 31, 2022, 09:34:35 PM
Quote from: J70 on May 31, 2022, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2022, 06:14:31 PM
Ban or seriously restrict the fkn handpass!

There's nothing wrong with a quick series of handpasses to open a defense up or work your way out of trouble.

Its not the number per se (within reason).

Its where a team is fumbling back and forth across the midfield, taking up two minutes or so trying (often in vain) to work a hole through multiple layers of defenders.

My own county is one of the (if not THE) worst offenders.
It's the typical dinosaurs who complain about the hand passing. These people prefer a high hall belted with a 50/50 success rate. Normally identifiable at club games by the roar of "send her in" the minute they approach the half way line. Muttering that this is the way the game should be played.

There are some "dinosaurs" like that.

Most of us, these days, just want to see forward intent. This doesn't have the take the form of a kick pass, let alone a 50:50 hoke. We just want to see teams giving it a go.

You won't get forward intent for 70 mins. If managers are wise enough to push up on the other team if they are ahead and playing across the pitch then I don't think any rule changes are going to help.

There will be bad games. Just like in the 00's and in the 90's.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 01:36:21 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 31, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
Few lads on here would have a DUP mindset about this?

"Change, what the f**k do we want change for? You, you should shut the f**k up. I've a cake to finish".
It's incredible alright, people are taking it as an attack on their county. It absolutely isn't, I was in clones, great occasion, incredibly tense, but there were long passages of tedious play with neither side prepared to risk losing possession. That's a problem that the gaa must adapt their rules to fix.
It's not an attack on Derry, I'm delighted with the win and I think everyone is prepared to give them this one without too much criticism, in fairness they did take more chances and were rewarded, but if they were to continue in this vein for another year, they'd rightly be pilloried. The keep ball is a blight on the game at all senior levels, club and county. This thread started back in 2018 with Dublin v Donegal, most county teams indulge in it, it probably cost Dublin the game v mayo last year, but they've used it to see out many's a game too.
I'm seeing it at club games in Dublin, not all games, but when it's a big game between evenly matched teams, it's likely you'll see the signal and everyone sets up for a session of piggy in the middle.
Every sport has this problem, there's nothing wrong with changing rules, it's actually the duty of the governing body. Gaelic football is my sport, I want something I can be proud of, not something I have to try and defend at the water cooler to casual observers.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on June 01, 2022, 08:22:24 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
Sure we had the same when Donegal made the break through under McGuinness. It was the end of the world back then for the purists too.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 6th sam on June 01, 2022, 08:33:52 AM
Football has improved in many ways , but the current rules have fostered that possession based chess which is not attractive and bad for  PR.
No back passes in or into your own half , is an easily refereed improvement that should be tested.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
This isn't about scoring, if we wanted scoring we'd watch the borefest that hurling frequently presents us with. Short puck out and tap over the bar from 110 yds in a 38pts to 29pts 'thriller' with what is now a mundane display of long range point taking from play or placed balls.
We know that skill levels, fitness levels and tactical nous are at all time high levels, but that doesn't translate into excitement, it bores fans and, it also bores players and potential players.
We know there have been many appalling games in the past, there were also many classics. Supporters and neutral fans want a mix, they want skills, but they also want spills, they want contests, there's room for tactics, but when tactics push the boundaries to some of what we've seen at all levels over the past decade, it's time for rulemakers to intervene.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mario on June 01, 2022, 10:34:04 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
This isn't about scoring, if we wanted scoring we'd watch the borefest that hurling frequently presents us with. Short puck out and tap over the bar from 110 yds in a 38pts to 29pts 'thriller' with what is now a mundane display of long range point taking from play or placed balls.
We know that skill levels, fitness levels and tactical nous are at all time high levels, but that doesn't translate into excitement, it bores fans and, it also bores players and potential players.
We know there have been many appalling games in the past, there were also many classics. Supporters and neutral fans want a mix, they want skills, but they also want spills, they want contests, there's room for tactics, but when tactics push the boundaries to some of what we've seen at all levels over the past decade, it's time for rulemakers to intervene.

Supporters and fans do get a mix. Not every game in the last few years has been like the ulster final. In fact most high profile games I remember have been nothing like it and you are calling for rule changes for some reason. If a game is competitive i'll enjoy it. That's the real problem with Gaelic football - a lack of competitive championship games, not rules or tactics.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: marty34 on June 01, 2022, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on June 01, 2022, 08:33:52 AM
Football has improved in many ways , but the current rules have fostered that possession based chess which is not attractive and bad for  PR.
No back passes in or into your own half , is an easily refereed improvement that should be tested.

What has PR got to do with it?

Play like Kildare and Limerick and get hammered - that's bad for PR.

Define attractiveness?

This utopia the RTÉ and Spillane are craving doesn't exist, never has and never will. Football, like all sports evolve.

This waffle that teams will win a football match by 5-22 to 5-21 doesn't exist.

I think RTÉ and by extension Spillane etc. have a grudge against Ulster football since Tyrone gutted Kerry and they haven't got over it yet.

I know this has been covered before but BBC's coverage was miles ahead of RTÉ's stale production and analysis.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: JoG2 on June 01, 2022, 11:14:47 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
This isn't about scoring, if we wanted scoring we'd watch the borefest that hurling frequently presents us with. Short puck out and tap over the bar from 110 yds in a 38pts to 29pts 'thriller' with what is now a mundane display of long range point taking from play or placed balls.
We know that skill levels, fitness levels and tactical nous are at all time high levels, but that doesn't translate into excitement, it bores fans and, it also bores players and potential players.
We know there have been many appalling games in the past, there were also many classics. Supporters and neutral fans want a mix, they want skills, but they also want spills, they want contests, there's room for tactics, but when tactics push the boundaries to some of what we've seen at all levels over the past decade, it's time for rulemakers to intervene.

You had all this in the Ulster final with the Anglo Celt on the line... Some boys are hard pleased!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: rosnarun on June 01, 2022, 11:53:26 AM
Quote from: marty34 on June 01, 2022, 10:38:18 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on June 01, 2022, 08:33:52 AM
Football has improved in many ways , but the current rules have fostered that possession based chess which is not attractive and bad for  PR.
No back passes in or into your own half , is an easily refereed improvement that should be tested.

What has PR got to do with it?

Play like Kildare and Limerick and get hammered - that's bad for PR.

Define attractiveness?

This utopia the RTÉ and Spillane are craving doesn't exist, never has and never will. Football, like all sports evolve.

This waffle that teams will win a football match by 5-22 to 5-21 doesn't exist.

I think RTÉ and by extension Spillane etc. have a grudge against Ulster football since Tyrone gutted Kerry and they haven't got over it yet.

I know this has been covered before but BBC's coverage was miles ahead of RTÉ's stale production and analysis.

while i have the utmost respect for Pat spillane as a player possiblty the GOAT i have been listening to himself anf Colm orourke moan about Football for over 30 years .
at one stage i rmeber soillane saying at an end of year review that they were no good games that year.
so i dont think it bias but he and RTE seem to believe negative coverage sell better than analysis
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Denn Forever on June 01, 2022, 12:01:18 PM
Would a rule like the have in Basketball where once the ball goes beyond the halfway line it can't go back.  Can try to play keep ball but opposition have a greater chance of getting back.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on June 01, 2022, 12:34:39 PM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.

I agree with that.
Some dire games back in the 90s and 00s.

Armagh started with a sweeper, then Tyrone took it to another level.
Mcguinness went up a level again and the game has now potentially evolved further.

Lots of comments here about teams refusing to take risks....do we not coach kids from no age that when passing the ball that they make the smart choice and make the safe pass so the other team doesn't get possession? We coach them that they can't attack without the ball....the other team can't score without the ball. We coach the basic skills of handpassing and kickpassing. But now some are suggesting those basic principals of the game are ruining the game! They seem to be saying that you want to defend...but not too much. You need to retain possession....but not too much possession. You need to pass....but not too often, or not too much of the same pass or only in certain directions. It really is a ridiculous argument imo.

Suggesting no backpassess after a certain distance up the field, or timers for attack are just non-runners (regardless of intent) as how on earth would you ever coach underage kids to do that? Perhaps these suggestions are only for county senior team? It would ruin the game at underage level and just result in a whole different set of problems.

I'm all for changing rules if it's for the benefit of the game but I don't see any suggestions on here (apart from one of potentially reducing teams to 13 aside) that might improve the game.
The biggest issue with the game right now is not keep ball, it's the lack of competitive games up and down the country.
That's where changes need to be made, if any. I'm not sure the new structures will improve things....I'm not a really fan of devaluing the provincial championships either so I don't really have an answer on how to improve competitiveness.
I do know Ulster is highly competitive and as a result highly entertaining in comparison to all the other provinces. I really hope we don't lose that.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: rrhf on June 01, 2022, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 01, 2022, 11:14:47 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
This isn't about scoring, if we wanted scoring we'd watch the borefest that hurling frequently presents us with. Short puck out and tap over the bar from 110 yds in a 38pts to 29pts 'thriller' with what is now a mundane display of long range point taking from play or placed balls.
We know that skill levels, fitness levels and tactical nous are at all time high levels, but that doesn't translate into excitement, it bores fans and, it also bores players and potential players.
We know there have been many appalling games in the past, there were also many classics. Supporters and neutral fans want a mix, they want skills, but they also want spills, they want contests, there's room for tactics, but when tactics push the boundaries to some of what we've seen at all levels over the past decade, it's time for rulemakers to intervene.

You had all this in the Ulster final with the Anglo Celt on the line... Some boys are hard pleased!

Football in the 70s and 80s was often poor punctuated by some all time classic moments, same as the 90s and most eras. The 2000s was the greatest era with more high points than any other era. I thought Sundays game was unique and gripping. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 01:01:11 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on June 01, 2022, 12:01:18 PM
Would a rule like the have in Basketball where once the ball goes beyond the halfway line it can't go back.  Can try to play keep ball but opposition have a greater chance of getting back.

Would love to see what counter action there would be to this. Create a horse shoe around the player once he crosses the line so you give them no option but to go back and concede a free. You really have to think of the reactions to this, and what coaches would do. You could make the game far far worse by trying to introduce something like this.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2022, 01:04:49 PM
How about putting a tall ball winner at full forward and kicking long ball in to him ?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 01:18:00 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 01:01:11 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on June 01, 2022, 12:01:18 PM
Would a rule like the have in Basketball where once the ball goes beyond the halfway line it can't go back.  Can try to play keep ball but opposition have a greater chance of getting back.

Would love to see what counter action there would be to this. Create a horse shoe around the player once he crosses the line so you give them no option but to go back and concede a free. You really have to think of the reactions to this, and what coaches would do. You could make the game far far worse by trying to introduce something like this.

And then the counter-counter action might be to move the ball forward more quickly and not get caught isolated on the half way line? You know like in basketball?

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 01:50:41 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 01:18:00 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 01:01:11 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on June 01, 2022, 12:01:18 PM
Would a rule like the have in Basketball where once the ball goes beyond the halfway line it can't go back.  Can try to play keep ball but opposition have a greater chance of getting back.

Would love to see what counter action there would be to this. Create a horse shoe around the player once he crosses the line so you give them no option but to go back and concede a free. You really have to think of the reactions to this, and what coaches would do. You could make the game far far worse by trying to introduce something like this.

And then the counter-counter action might be to move the ball forward more quickly and not get caught isolated on the half way line? You know like in basketball?

So you want a counter-counter action? When you don't know what the actual counter action will be? Come off, you're making stuff up here. Mad rules like this will destroy the game as you have no idea of the unintended consequences. The hand wringing from this one game is a sight to behold.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 01:58:17 PM
Hence the earlier post. We've hundreds of adult league across Ireland. Drop it into a couple of them for a year and see what unintended consequences appear.

Why we trial rule changes in county football has always baffled me.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 02:02:53 PM
Also, define a "mad rule".

Is basketball a bigger game since they introduced a shot clock?

Is soccer a better game since they got rid of the back pass rule?

Is rugby a better game since trys were awarded 5 points?

And closer to home.... Is Gaelic football a better game since the seismic change to kicking frees from hand?

——

The answer to the last one, is that it was for 20 years. Then Jimmy fucked it all up for everyone.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 01:58:17 PM
Hence the earlier post. We've hundreds of adult league across Ireland. Drop it into a couple of them for a year and see what unintended consequences appear.

Why we trial rule changes in county football has always baffled me.

As county football is where the best minds are at. McGuinness etc. With a huge background team, and an innovative coach, they'll be the ones to find the faults. Not a random club league somewhere. Like honestly though, you're losing your marbles here over one game. Settle and see how other things go. Don't ruin things over one game where the stars aligned to produce that. You could play that game again 100 times next year with a different Donegal manager and never get it like that again. See it for what it is.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 02:08:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 02:02:53 PM
Also, define a "mad rule".

Is basketball a bigger game since they introduced a shot clock?

Is soccer a better game since they got rid of the back pass rule?

Is rugby a better game since trys were awarded 5 points?

And closer to home.... Is Gaelic football a better game since the seismic change to kicking frees from hand?

——

The answer to the last one, is that it was for 20 years. Then Jimmy fucked it all up for everyone.

I mean coming up with a rule off the top of your head, to try fix the end results but not the root cause. That's a mad rule. Do any other large field sports (and please stop using basketball, it's an indoor limited court space sport) have rules to prevent you going back past a certain point? Any of them? No. Stop trying to fix a problem that we've seen literally once. And it wasn't even that much of a problem, RTE spitting feathers, but many enjoyed the tenseness of the game. I for sure did. It was a tactical arm wrestle.

Back pass rule is to stop picking it up, not stopping the ball going back at all.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 02:18:41 PM
Visit page 1 of this thread.

This isn't because of "one game".

By the way:

in American football and rugby league if you don't go forward you lose possession.

In Aussie rules, a man can legally clatter you to the ground if you hold onto possession, then it's a turnover.

In soccer they took away the back pass to prevent teams being able to recycle the ball in their own half.

But here. Close your eyes. See what you want to see.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 02:18:41 PM
Visit page 1 of this thread.

This isn't because of "one game".

By the way:

in American football and rugby league if you don't go forward you lose possession.

In Aussie rules, a man can legally clatter you to the ground if you hold onto possession, then it's a turnover.

In soccer they took away the back pass to prevent teams being able to recycle the ball in their own half.

But here. Close your eyes. See what you want to see.

Here mate, not sure I'd be looking at American football for inspiration. And Rugby league works as they've a 5 tackle rule which is odd. They drove it by looking at the problem a different way. Not just saying you can't run back with the ball (you can, just the incentive is not to, so it's rarely seen). And I don't have my eyes closed. I just don't see this as the problem and the solution. I think you're looking in the wrong place for the issue here
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on June 01, 2022, 04:01:16 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 01:18:00 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on June 01, 2022, 01:01:11 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on June 01, 2022, 12:01:18 PM
Would a rule like the have in Basketball where once the ball goes beyond the halfway line it can't go back.  Can try to play keep ball but opposition have a greater chance of getting back.

Would love to see what counter action there would be to this. Create a horse shoe around the player once he crosses the line so you give them no option but to go back and concede a free. You really have to think of the reactions to this, and what coaches would do. You could make the game far far worse by trying to introduce something like this.

And then the counter-counter action might be to move the ball forward more quickly and not get caught isolated on the half way line? You know like in basketball?

Maybe more fist passing, easiest way to move the ball quickly and accurately!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 01, 2022, 11:14:47 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 01, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
This isn't about scoring, if we wanted scoring we'd watch the borefest that hurling frequently presents us with. Short puck out and tap over the bar from 110 yds in a 38pts to 29pts 'thriller' with what is now a mundane display of long range point taking from play or placed balls.
We know that skill levels, fitness levels and tactical nous are at all time high levels, but that doesn't translate into excitement, it bores fans and, it also bores players and potential players.
We know there have been many appalling games in the past, there were also many classics. Supporters and neutral fans want a mix, they want skills, but they also want spills, they want contests, there's room for tactics, but when tactics push the boundaries to some of what we've seen at all levels over the past decade, it's time for rulemakers to intervene.

You had all this in the Ulster final with the Anglo Celt on the line... Some boys are hard pleased!
You can't let a Derry win blind you to the very long passages of tedious recycling where top forwards refused to take on defenders or shots. For years Derry refused to embrace this style of play and took the high moral ground and got little reward, by embracing the blanket and achieving unbelievable buy in and committment from the current group of players they have got the reward. It's fantastic for them, it was also unfortunate that the team they met on Sunday set up in exactly the same way, meaning that the attacking aspects of their gameplan couldn't be showcased in the manner they were versus Tyrone and to a lesser extent versus Monaghan.
All many of us are saying is that for neutrals, watching endless recycling of the ball is tedious, we want risk and reward, we want to remove the option whereby teams can see out games by retaining possession. It appears that a rule change would make the game better, we're open to options, but the easiest one to police which might make a difference is the one penalising teams from re-entering their own half again. Surely it deserves a trial. Every sport changes rules on a ongoing basis, why would we not do likewise?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on June 02, 2022, 12:55:51 AM
At what stage do we start to realise we are insecure about our game?

The 1990 World Cup was shit beyond shit. No calls for rule changes.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: J70 on June 02, 2022, 01:01:14 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 02, 2022, 12:55:51 AM
At what stage do we start to realise we are insecure about our game?

The 1990 World Cup was shit beyond shit. No calls for rule changes.

Apart from the small matter of keepers no longer being allow to pick up back passes. ;D
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 02, 2022, 01:23:07 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
1990's football was hoofball?? I suspect you didn't see a lot of football from the 90's.

"The All-Ireland semi-finals of 1997 showed a ratio of 76 handpasses to 56 kickpasses for Mayo, 71 to 55 for Offaly, 78-48 for Kerry and 86-27 for Cavan. Those ratios have gone in only one direction since. At the time Croke Park's Pat Daly, who has been involved on rule change committees going back to 1989, voiced his concern. "Handpassing has taken off to the extent that it supersedes kicking," he said. It far supersedes it now"

Same article, given who is quoted, I think it's worth reproducing!!!
"Donegal manager Declan Bonner feels the GAA, however good its intentions, is jumping the gun. "Over the last, say, 18 months or two years you could see that the top teams are playing a more expansive game now. It has become more offensive," he states. "The one thing about the summer was that they were comparing the hurling to the Gaelic championship, two totally different games. But I definitely felt the top teams were pushing on and wanting to play a more open game and I didn't see the need (for rule change).

"I think the handpass (rule) is just ridiculous. It's difficult for the players, it's difficult for the referees, it's very difficult to control. A number of times last week we had a number of different situations where it went to four handpasses and they did not pick up on it. Imagine that in a championship match which is being analysed and over-analysed."

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mario on June 02, 2022, 08:27:41 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 02, 2022, 01:23:07 AM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.
1990's football was hoofball?? I suspect you didn't see a lot of football from the 90's.

"The All-Ireland semi-finals of 1997 showed a ratio of 76 handpasses to 56 kickpasses for Mayo, 71 to 55 for Offaly, 78-48 for Kerry and 86-27 for Cavan. Those ratios have gone in only one direction since. At the time Croke Park's Pat Daly, who has been involved on rule change committees going back to 1989, voiced his concern. "Handpassing has taken off to the extent that it supersedes kicking," he said. It far supersedes it now"

Same article, given who is quoted, I think it's worth reproducing!!!
"Donegal manager Declan Bonner feels the GAA, however good its intentions, is jumping the gun. "Over the last, say, 18 months or two years you could see that the top teams are playing a more expansive game now. It has become more offensive," he states. "The one thing about the summer was that they were comparing the hurling to the Gaelic championship, two totally different games. But I definitely felt the top teams were pushing on and wanting to play a more open game and I didn't see the need (for rule change).

"I think the handpass (rule) is just ridiculous. It's difficult for the players, it's difficult for the referees, it's very difficult to control. A number of times last week we had a number of different situations where it went to four handpasses and they did not pick up on it. Imagine that in a championship match which is being analysed and over-analysed."
I saw a lot of football in the 90s. Your stats of kick pass to handpass ratios are what I would expect from a hoofball game.

I dunno how many times I've watched derry down 94 on tg4, often quoted as one of the greatest games of all time, and it was for it's era but watch it back now and some of the kick passing is awful, just launching it into full forward line.

I remember they played a rerun of the 1991 derry club final in Dungiven club a few years ago (Dungiven were in it). People were laughing at the game watching it through the eyes of people used to modern gaelic football.

I'm not saying we can't enjoy attacking games now but 90s football is definitely not better.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tonto1888 on June 02, 2022, 09:05:15 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 01, 2022, 02:18:41 PM
Visit page 1 of this thread.

This isn't because of "one game".

By the way:

in American football and rugby league if you don't go forward you lose possession.

In Aussie rules, a man can legally clatter you to the ground if you hold onto possession, then it's a turnover.

In soccer they took away the back pass to prevent teams being able to recycle the ball in their own half.

But here. Close your eyes. See what you want to see.

you can still pass the ball back to the keeper in soccer
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Estimator on June 02, 2022, 09:29:27 AM
Quote from: J70 on June 02, 2022, 01:01:14 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 02, 2022, 12:55:51 AM
At what stage do we start to realise we are insecure about our game?

The 1990 World Cup was shit beyond shit. No calls for rule changes.

Apart from the small matter of keepers no longer being allow to pick up back passes. ;D

Yeah, that was meant to improve the game yet the next World Cup final (1994) was settled on penalties after extra time with no goals scored.

I've watched the game back a few times now, since attending the game on Sunday, and still find it intriguing viewing. Yes, the first 10minutes had 0 scores, but on another day Donegal probably should've been 4-2 up at that point, if you look at the (scorable) wides, blocks and dropped short before the Derry goal.

Don't think the rule-makers need to get involved, but if they do, they need to out-work the impact of any rule change on the game... Speak to former intercounty managers etc and get them to figure out worst case scenarios for any new rule, ie what the modern tacticians would do to circumvent these rules. Before any limited trialling takes place.

QuoteI dunno how many times I've watched derry down 94 on tg4, often quoted as one of the greatest games of all time, and it was for it's era but watch it back now and some of the kick passing is awful, just launching it into full forward line.

Very true, and what did Derry score in one of the greatest games of all time...1-12
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on June 02, 2022, 09:41:27 AM
90s football was crap compared to modern football and you could probably count on one hand the amount of games from the 90s or any other decade that were remotely close to the standard of today's top intercounty teams - has any other full back scored 3 points from play in an Ulster final?

As a neutral, I thoroughly enjoyed the match - tactically fascinating with a brilliant atmosphere and tense finish. The doomsday merchants (see "purists")  have been lamenting the demise of our games since 2003. Donegal in 2012 came and went and the world still hasn't ended.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Silver hill on June 02, 2022, 10:04:52 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 01, 2022, 12:34:39 PM
Quote from: Mario on June 01, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Both teams in ulster final scored 1-12 I think in normal time, that would be enough to win you half of the all ireland finals in the 90s. People need to take their nostalgia goggles off. Football back then was hoofball, there is far more skill and tactics involved now. If you can't enjoy different types of games and different styles sport isn't for you.

I agree with that.
Some dire games back in the 90s and 00s.

Armagh started with a sweeper, then Tyrone took it to another level.
Mcguinness went up a level again and the game has now potentially evolved further.

Lots of comments here about teams refusing to take risks....do we not coach kids from no age that when passing the ball that they make the smart choice and make the safe pass so the other team doesn't get possession? We coach them that they can't attack without the ball....the other team can't score without the ball. We coach the basic skills of handpassing and kickpassing. But now some are suggesting those basic principals of the game are ruining the game! They seem to be saying that you want to defend...but not too much. You need to retain possession....but not too much possession. You need to pass....but not too often, or not too much of the same pass or only in certain directions. It really is a ridiculous argument imo.

Suggesting no backpassess after a certain distance up the field, or timers for attack are just non-runners (regardless of intent) as how on earth would you ever coach underage kids to do that? Perhaps these suggestions are only for county senior team? It would ruin the game at underage level and just result in a whole different set of problems.

I'm all for changing rules if it's for the benefit of the game but I don't see any suggestions on here (apart from one of potentially reducing teams to 13 aside) that might improve the game.
The biggest issue with the game right now is not keep ball, it's the lack of competitive games up and down the country.
That's where changes need to be made, if any. I'm not sure the new structures will improve things....I'm not a really fan of devaluing the provincial championships either so I don't really have an answer on how to improve competitiveness.
I do know Ulster is highly competitive and as a result highly entertaining in comparison to all the other provinces. I really hope we don't lose that.

Kids aren't thick. If the rule was that you can't pass the ball back once you cross the half way line then they will easily pick that up. In the same way that they know not to bounce the ball twice or pick it off the ground. It's not complicated.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Derryman forever on June 02, 2022, 10:16:05 AM
You are right it's not the kids are thick it is the commentators  that think every game should be a replica of the previous game, going back to whenever that particular individual thinks "the best" football was played. If there is no room for variety of game with tactics and counter tactics, can I suggest tiddlywinks for them.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 02, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
I know Derry have been poorly supported for the past decade, but did they watch any football at all? it's kind of strange how many of them think this discussion is about Sunday's match. Do they even know how Jimmy McGuinness is?

Derry wans, do us a favour and back away from this thread. Nobody here is attacking Derry. Nobody here is trying to find ways to stop you folks winning another Ulster.

This has been running for a full decade.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: cornerback on June 02, 2022, 11:14:30 AM
The gaa have constantly tinkered with the rules and it seems that they have had little effect on the style of play that managers employ.  I don't know what the "solution" is or even if there needs to be a solution.
For example, posters comment that soccer introduced the back pass rule; gaa introduced their version of the back pass from the keepers kick-out but managers/teams just ensure they have an additional player back to receive the next pass rather than the goalkeeper.
I would draw some parallels between this style of play and the "park the bus" tactic in soccer - soccer fans are no longer up-in-arms about this tactic; they see it as a legitimate way of getting a result and the authorities aren't trying to come up with rules to counteract it - it's up to the managers and teams to counteract it with their own style.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Derryman forever on June 02, 2022, 11:15:45 AM
So which county are you from that makes your opinion more valid than mine?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: uimhr ocht on June 02, 2022, 11:31:35 AM
it was a nervy edgy tactical final with both teams mirroring each other it was always going to be like this,to score 1;12 wasnt bad scoring considering 15 men behind the ball in 1993 we only scored 1;14 in all ire final with no such tactics being deployed back then,credit were credit is due.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 03, 2022, 01:02:59 AM
I despair reading what some of ye are writing on here, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Mario, that's the point, we want the odd ball kicked in, we want the risk, we want brolly or Linden contesting possession with scullion or burns.  Who was that 91 final against, newbridge, castledawson maybe?
General Lee, 90's football was crap?? - I watched many's the game in the 90's and thoroughly enjoyed them, same with the noughties and the same with this 2010's, the eighties too if truth be told!
There's no point in looking back and judging games from another era by standards of today, you can only judge them by the standards of their time.
Today's top players are better conditioned and prepared. Equipment, gloves, balls, GPS all much better than ever before. Players are much more tactically aware, they understand where and when to shoot, they get how to make loop runs and backdoor runs, they will score more from less possessions. But none of that means feck all if most neutrals are bored with it all.
Being a Derry man I was totally invested in Sunday's game, gripped by it and incredibly proud of the commitment and work put in by the squad, but I knew that a lot of what we saw was not pretty on the eye. When I got home, checked my various WhatsApp groups and almost to a man they were decrying what we'd seen. And these are mostly gaa people. They're fellow underage coaches, committee members etc. All recognised Derry's achievement, but nobody happy with much of what they saw - I didn't bother pointing out that it was pretty similar to how the club senior team played a cship semi final last year, or that Dublin are amongst the worst keep ball protagonists, I'll save that until the club social night in a few weeks😁.
This is a blight on the game at all levels, time to trial some rule at adaptions, that way the efforts of the players will get the audience and acknowledgment they deserve and if it allows us to have more top class and exciting games, won't we all be winners.
That said, the most important element of any good game is to have evenly matched teams, now that's another day's work!
Btw Mario, I never enjoyed that Celtic park classic in 94 myself.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on June 03, 2022, 06:07:03 AM
provincial championships have been devalued since backdoor came in
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Derryman forever on June 03, 2022, 08:10:59 AM
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/06/03/news/the-ulster-final-beauty-is-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder-2731953/


This is well written article,  and I recommend  it to everyone who wants each game if football to mirror the one before it.
I want variety, I want tactics, I want to see the high level of concentration and self discipline it takes to play a game like last Sunday. Not every game but occasionally  . Neither do I want to see teams like Dublin and Kerry annihilate naive opossition, that think they are too good to learn how to defrnd and keep possession.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: magpie seanie on June 03, 2022, 11:47:31 AM
I'll be brief. No rule changes needed. Enforce the 4 steps rule and handpass rule. Give defenders a chance 1 on 1. Players in possession are given too much time to make decisions (overcarrying is standard) and if they make any sort of attempt at a striking action it's allowed. Guarantee if these rules were enforced team wouldn't be able to maintain possession so easily like they do now.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ghost on June 03, 2022, 11:53:35 AM
Maybe already  been suggested but would it be  beneficial to reduce teams to 13 aside. Teams would set up in the same way but fewer players would obviously create more spaces and hopefully encourage players to drive forward more with less lateral hand passing.

Anyone yearning for a return to long ball after long ball is living in cloud cuckoo land...
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: yellowcard on June 03, 2022, 12:46:08 PM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 03, 2022, 08:10:59 AM
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2022/06/03/news/the-ulster-final-beauty-is-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder-2731953/


This is well written article,  and I recommend  it to everyone who wants each game if football to mirror the one before it.
I want variety, I want tactics, I want to see the high level of concentration and self discipline it takes to play a game like last Sunday. Not every game but occasionally  . Neither do I want to see teams like Dublin and Kerry annihilate naive opossition, that think they are too good to learn how to defrnd and keep possession.

Everybody has a different idea of the way they would like gaelic football to look like. If Sunday's spectacle was the norm then it's certainly not something that I want to watch. The only reason I kept watching was the fact that it was an Ulster final and that there was a chance of Derry winning their first title in 24 years. If I was watching that stuff every week in club football I would probably stop attending. 

I don't really get the relevance of a world cup final from 12 years ago in a completely different sport. The retention of possession in soccer is much different and much more difficult than it is in gaelic football and requires a high level of technical ability. You can't do what Spain done with poor or even average players. What we see in gaelic football is keep ball outside the 65 metre line that requires little or no skill level whatsoever. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: restorepride on June 03, 2022, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 02, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
I know Derry have been poorly supported for the past decade, but did they watch any football at all? it's kind of strange how many of them think this discussion is about Sunday's match. Do they even know how Jimmy McGuinness is?

Derry wans, do us a favour and back away from this thread. Nobody here is attacking Derry. Nobody here is trying to find ways to stop you folks winning another Ulster.

This has been running for a full decade.
You have just managed to attacked Derry! No favours for a dictatorship like the one you want - back away?!! Some chance - we are Ulster Champions.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 03, 2022, 02:02:09 PM
Ref'd a game the other night, under 15 football.. I normally would be hitting around 4 miles per game but last few seasons that's dropped at senior level to well under 4miles. Last night the kids played proper football up and down the pitch. High scoring mistakes here and there but an offensive approach.

Finished up on 4.6 miles, lateral defensive football is like standing still for large parts of the game, most games at senior level are a poor enough spectacle even the players  mention it during the game

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: yellowcard on June 03, 2022, 02:37:06 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 03, 2022, 02:02:09 PM
Ref'd a game the other night, under 15 football.. I normally would be hitting around 4 miles per game but last few seasons that's dropped at senior level to well under 4miles. Last night the kids played proper football up and down the pitch. High scoring mistakes here and there but an offensive approach.

Finished up on 4.6 miles, lateral defensive football is like standing still for large parts of the game, most games at senior level are a poor enough spectacle even the players  mention it during the game

It probably shouldn't be surprising but still very interesting to see the difference in those numbers in black and white. Even in some club games I watch now, during the match people are having conversations about other things going on in the world. The game itself can be a bit of a sideshow but its still a social outing so you still end up attending. Plenty of periods of nothingness during the match allow for this. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on June 03, 2022, 10:49:04 PM
The other thing about all these sky-is-falling merchants. Many claim the club is king yet they'll lament the 'product' of the county game when they experience a tactical match like last weekend. McStay's commentary was ridiculous on Sunday.

What does it matter if you have the odd tactical game? Donegal are fairly high scorers and liable to open up next game out.

We should probably go back to the old days and have just 3 games a year on TV to save us from the armageddon pundits.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: full moon on June 04, 2022, 06:42:18 PM
Some really atrocious football today. Louth Cork was very poor stuff. Monaghan Mayo second half was awful no score from either for 21 minutes!

And now I have Clare Meath on and it's the same crap with the atmosphere and edge of a pre season match not championship. Something does need to change for sure.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.





Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.

I agree. Slowly losing faith in Gaelic football as a spectator sport. It's great for the cabal of coaches but it's getting really hard to watch a 70 minute match now. Everything is so rehearsed and the players are all clones of each other following a strict rigid possession based game plan. Haven't seen a decent game all championship.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:54:19 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.

I agree. Slowly losing faith in Gaelic football as a spectator sport. It's great for the cabal of coaches but it's getting really hard to watch a 70 minute match now. Everything is so rehearsed and the players are all clones of each other following a strict rigid possession based game plan. Haven't seen a decent game all championship.


I don't watch anymore. Maybe switch on to see the last 10 minutes. Anyway, Football Games are not televised anymore. It's all Hurling. RTE know what has viewership. My kids don't watch. They play and enjoy it.

Coaches, tacticians, Managers, trainers have learned how to cynically nullify the opposition. This includes long periods of hold ball and ball recycling.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on June 04, 2022, 09:51:05 PM
the structure of the championship hurling and football is more of a problem than  defensive tactics
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 10:54:11 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:54:19 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.

I agree. Slowly losing faith in Gaelic football as a spectator sport. It's great for the cabal of coaches but it's getting really hard to watch a 70 minute match now. Everything is so rehearsed and the players are all clones of each other following a strict rigid possession based game plan. Haven't seen a decent game all championship.


I don't watch anymore. Maybe switch on to see the last 10 minutes. Anyway, Football Games are not televised anymore. It's all Hurling. RTE know what has viewership. My kids don't watch. They play and enjoy it.

Coaches, tacticians, Managers, trainers have learned how to cynically nullify the opposition. This includes long periods of hold ball and ball recycling.

I still enjoy the social aspect of GAA especially at local level but the game of Gaelic football is devoid of enjoyment and entertainment.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on June 04, 2022, 10:55:51 PM
is there now an over emphasis on gym culture and players bulking up instead of having some players that were fast and nimble are some players just playing to get instagram likes.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on June 04, 2022, 10:55:51 PM
is there now an over emphasis on gym culture and players bulking up instead of having some players that were fast and nimble are some players just playing to get instagram likes.

I think we're past that era of the bulked up player. It's more about speed, agility, power now just look at how body shapes have changed in the last 10/15 years. There's way less physical contact in the sport so big muscular players with less mobility are not as useful. Kilcoo are a case in point.

The biggest issue is over coaching, analysis and the use of statistics. It's all about risk reduction and cutting out mistakes and possession is king. Makes for a dire spectacle but for players and managers involved in it they can't see the wood from the trees.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 05, 2022, 08:22:38 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:54:19 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.

I agree. Slowly losing faith in Gaelic football as a spectator sport. It's great for the cabal of coaches but it's getting really hard to watch a 70 minute match now. Everything is so rehearsed and the players are all clones of each other following a strict rigid possession based game plan. Haven't seen a decent game all championship.


I don't watch anymore. Maybe switch on to see the last 10 minutes. Anyway, Football Games are not televised anymore. It's all Hurling. RTE know what has viewership. My kids don't watch. They play and enjoy it.

Coaches, tacticians, Managers, trainers have learned how to cynically nullify the opposition. This includes long periods of hold ball and ball recycling.
There's been more hurling in to date because of the championship structure, that'll balance out now.
Both games need rule tweaks in any case as tactics in both games have lessened the spectator appeal. Top level hurling is now a game largely devoid of goals, why bother trying to work a 3 pointer when a 110yd flick of the wrist gets 1/3 of the reward.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: didlyi on June 05, 2022, 11:58:25 PM
Quote from: onefineday on June 05, 2022, 08:22:38 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:54:19 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on June 04, 2022, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.

I agree. Slowly losing faith in Gaelic football as a spectator sport. It's great for the cabal of coaches but it's getting really hard to watch a 70 minute match now. Everything is so rehearsed and the players are all clones of each other following a strict rigid possession based game plan. Haven't seen a decent game all championship.


I don't watch anymore. Maybe switch on to see the last 10 minutes. Anyway, Football Games are not televised anymore. It's all Hurling. RTE know what has viewership. My kids don't watch. They play and enjoy it.

Coaches, tacticians, Managers, trainers have learned how to cynically nullify the opposition. This includes long periods of hold ball and ball recycling.
There's been more hurling in to date because of the championship structure, that'll balance out now.
Both games need rule tweaks in any case as tactics in both games have lessened the spectator appeal. Top level hurling is now a game largely devoid of goals, why bother trying to work a 3 pointer when a 110yd flick of the wrist gets 1/3 of the reward.

There was 33 goals in the Munster Hurling championship in 11 games.
There was 16 goals in the Ulster Football championship in 8 games
I will leave the maths to you!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on June 08, 2022, 04:25:24 PM
When people like myself, (who has played the game and watched the game for many years) stop watching live games (unless Sligo are involved), then there is a major problem with football.  I know there are many like myself now who would rather just watch the Sunday Game to see the highlights rather than suffer through an hour and a half of hand passing, back passing, loaded defenses, strategic kickouts etc.

Agree that this is due to stats, coaching and fear of losing - all of these things have been effective for teams but unfortunately at the total expense of the enjoyment factor.  Coaches won't change so the rules must before it's too late.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 10:16:13 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 08, 2022, 04:25:24 PM
When people like myself, (who has played the game and watched the game for many years) stop watching live games (unless Sligo are involved), then there is a major problem with football.  I know there are many like myself now who would rather just watch the Sunday Game to see the highlights rather than suffer through an hour and a half of hand passing, back passing, loaded defenses, strategic kickouts etc.

Agree that this is due to stats, coaching and fear of losing - all of these things have been effective for teams but unfortunately at the total expense of the enjoyment factor.  Coaches won't change so the rules must before it's too late.

But there's just as many who don't want to see a return to hoofball, where the ball is bate from on side of the pitch to the other with little in between. Your not going to keep everyone happy. Football of the 80's and 90's are being viewed through very rosey specs in my opinion. Plus you had less games televised, so you didn't get your fill of it as easy.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 10:16:13 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 08, 2022, 04:25:24 PM
When people like myself, (who has played the game and watched the game for many years) stop watching live games (unless Sligo are involved), then there is a major problem with football.  I know there are many like myself now who would rather just watch the Sunday Game to see the highlights rather than suffer through an hour and a half of hand passing, back passing, loaded defenses, strategic kickouts etc.

Agree that this is due to stats, coaching and fear of losing - all of these things have been effective for teams but unfortunately at the total expense of the enjoyment factor.  Coaches won't change so the rules must before it's too late.

But there's just as many who don't want to see a return to hoofball, where the ball is bate from on side of the pitch to the other with little in between. Your not going to keep everyone happy. Football of the 80's and 90's are being viewed through very rosey specs in my opinion. Plus you had less games televised, so you didn't get your fill of it as easy.

I've mentioned before, did a juvenile game the other week, end to end stuff, not just hoofing the ball but 15 on 15 game, no defensive stuff, very entertaining..

Those who employ the defensive tactics are spoiling it, fear of losing or fear of losing by too much is the core of this, I'd no problems playing a sweeper against teams that were much stronger than us or against a stiff breeze, but you are limiting your scoring options, but they have tweak it and this counter attack with possession football will be very hard to change.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 10:16:13 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 08, 2022, 04:25:24 PM
When people like myself, (who has played the game and watched the game for many years) stop watching live games (unless Sligo are involved), then there is a major problem with football.  I know there are many like myself now who would rather just watch the Sunday Game to see the highlights rather than suffer through an hour and a half of hand passing, back passing, loaded defenses, strategic kickouts etc.

Agree that this is due to stats, coaching and fear of losing - all of these things have been effective for teams but unfortunately at the total expense of the enjoyment factor.  Coaches won't change so the rules must before it's too late.

But there's just as many who don't want to see a return to hoofball, where the ball is bate from on side of the pitch to the other with little in between. Your not going to keep everyone happy. Football of the 80's and 90's are being viewed through very rosey specs in my opinion. Plus you had less games televised, so you didn't get your fill of it as easy.

I've mentioned before, did a juvenile game the other week, end to end stuff, not just hoofing the ball but 15 on 15 game, no defensive stuff, very entertaining..

Those who employ the defensive tactics are spoiling it, fear of losing or fear of losing by too much is the core of this, I'd no problems playing a sweeper against teams that were much stronger than us or against a stiff breeze, but you are limiting your scoring options, but they have tweak it and this counter attack with possession football will be very hard to change.

I just think you are over doing it. So there's a few defensive games. It's no big deal. As I've said there were crap games in all eras but we don't need to keep making changes. Your never going to get rid of all the bad games. Tactics will change, develop etc. and that's going to happen regardless of any changes.
I don't think it's possible to make a change that will solely have a positive impact, with no side effects that would actually cut out defensive play. Poorer teams in all sports try defensive play to control the impact of superior players. It's just a natural occurrence and always will be.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on June 09, 2022, 12:30:05 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 10:16:13 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 08, 2022, 04:25:24 PM
When people like myself, (who has played the game and watched the game for many years) stop watching live games (unless Sligo are involved), then there is a major problem with football.  I know there are many like myself now who would rather just watch the Sunday Game to see the highlights rather than suffer through an hour and a half of hand passing, back passing, loaded defenses, strategic kickouts etc.

Agree that this is due to stats, coaching and fear of losing - all of these things have been effective for teams but unfortunately at the total expense of the enjoyment factor.  Coaches won't change so the rules must before it's too late.

But there's just as many who don't want to see a return to hoofball, where the ball is bate from on side of the pitch to the other with little in between. Your not going to keep everyone happy. Football of the 80's and 90's are being viewed through very rosey specs in my opinion. Plus you had less games televised, so you didn't get your fill of it as easy.

I've mentioned before, did a juvenile game the other week, end to end stuff, not just hoofing the ball but 15 on 15 game, no defensive stuff, very entertaining..

Those who employ the defensive tactics are spoiling it, fear of losing or fear of losing by too much is the core of this, I'd no problems playing a sweeper against teams that were much stronger than us or against a stiff breeze, but you are limiting your scoring options, but they have tweak it and this counter attack with possession football will be very hard to change.

I just think you are over doing it. So there's a few defensive games. It's no big deal. As I've said there were crap games in all eras but we don't need to keep making changes. Your never going to get rid of all the bad games. Tactics will change, develop etc. and that's going to happen regardless of any changes.
I don't think it's possible to make a change that will solely have a positive impact, with no side effects that would actually cut out defensive play. Poorer teams in all sports try defensive play to control the impact of superior players. It's just a natural occurrence and always will be.

I think the problem is when you step down to intermediate and junior club matches defensive football can look like trying not to lose but no actual plan in how to win the game. You aren't going to get a 0-0 or sneak a 1-0 in football. Years ago teams may have got stuffed or the game was crap standard but it didn't feel as negative as it does now. I don't know what level of club games you watch but some of it is terrible to watch.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on June 09, 2022, 02:08:45 PM
`I'm not advocating hoofball - I'm simply saying that football is being left in the dark compared to hurling in terms of entertainment value.  People go to football games to be entertained not to witness 1,000 hand passes.  Entertainment and attendances are directly correlated so eventually many people will stop going to these games.  If we don't think we need to enact some changes to change this, then I fear very much for the future of football.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 09, 2022, 02:29:35 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 09, 2022, 02:08:45 PM
`I'm not advocating hoofball - I'm simply saying that football is being left in the dark compared to hurling in terms of entertainment value.  People go to football games to be entertained not to witness 1,000 hand passes.  Entertainment and attendances are directly correlated so eventually many people will stop going to these games.  If we don't think we need to enact some changes to change this, then I fear very much for the future of football.

That would be open to debate. I'm much rather watch any football game than a hurling one. Just a personal preference. And entertainment is subjective. Is a turkey shoot entertaining? Not in my eyes. I was never turning off from the UF this year, but I'd sure as hell tune out from some of the Leinster games.
I just don't believe people will turn off as there's always been bad games. People know that. 
The cost of living is a bigger issue to the GAA at the minute and they aren't helping much in that front.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 09, 2022, 03:07:33 PM
This has probably been mentioned before but would giving 2 points for scores from outside the 45m line (or from a new bigger D) change how defensive the game has become?

Not in favour of a stop clock but something like this would encourage teams to shoot more and in theory should make it more entertaining for a variety of reasons.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 03:13:57 PM
I see that this debate has been here on this thread since 2018 and we are no nearer a consensus.
I agree with the poster who thinks back passes should be outlawed as this would surely promote a watchable game where the opposition will have a decent chance of retrieving the ball.
I fail to understand how people find the new hurling more watchable than gaelic football with all it's faults.   Frees at least every minute and this excludes a hell of a lot more undetectable fouls, like throwing, arm holding etc etc.  and the majority of scores with such a small ball are from frees and most likely unseen until the umpire raises a flag.   I mourn the day when players could pull on the sliotar on the ground and in the air, and there were no rucks or scrums.   
Having said that, I switched off the recent Derry game as I simply didn't find that stuff remotely entertaining and I'm not from Ulster.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mayoman dan on June 09, 2022, 04:05:04 PM
Would banning the back pass to the goalkeeper completely solve the problem???
The goalkeeper is normally the extra man.If he was taken out of the equation would it encourage the team without the ball to push up and engage the team with the ball.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Armagh18 on June 09, 2022, 04:13:22 PM
Quote from: mayoman dan on June 09, 2022, 04:05:04 PM
Would banning the back pass to the goalkeeper completely solve the problem???
The goalkeeper is normally the extra man.If he was taken out of the equation would it encourage the team without the ball to push up and engage the team with the ball.
Get away did you not see Ethan Rafferty on Sunday? ;)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: restorepride on June 09, 2022, 04:28:53 PM
Quote from: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 03:13:57 PM
I see that this debate has been here on this thread since 2018 and we are no nearer a consensus.
I agree with the poster who thinks back passes should be outlawed as this would surely promote a watchable game where the opposition will have a decent chance of retrieving the ball.
I fail to understand how people find the new hurling more watchable than gaelic football with all it's faults.   Frees at least every minute and this excludes a hell of a lot more undetectable fouls, like throwing, arm holding etc etc.  and the majority of scores with such a small ball are from frees and most likely unseen until the umpire raises a flag.   I mourn the day when players could pull on the sliotar on the ground and in the air, and there were no rucks or scrums.   
Having said that, I switched off the recent Derry game as I simply didn't find that stuff remotely entertaining and I'm not from Ulster.
That was exactly the right thing to do. Keep it off. Derry won anyway!!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on June 09, 2022, 04:45:19 PM
The debate is subjective in my view.
There were always crap games, we just didnt see so many on tv so it wasnt talked about so much.

A few people saying that people will stop watching. Clones was a sell out for the Ulster final and everyone knew what type of game that would be before it started.
Plenty of people on here talking about it, so it must have been watched on TV too.
And I'd imagine of that same game was an AI final, Croker would be sold out also.

Different doesn't necessarily mean worse. Some people will always hark back to the good old days of kick ball. Some will say the game has evolved and is much more technical and requires a higher level of skill and fitness than ever before.
Neither opinion is wrong, just different.

Changing rules won't stop people having different opinions on what is a good game and what is a bad game.
I for one am glad to see the end of the days (hopefully) where Kerry/Dublin carved up the AI's between them and that there are at least a few teams with realistic chances of winning an AI.
I much prefer that than a foregone conclusion.

But for the sake of argument....if there were to be any rule changes I think the only way to make a game more open or less defensive is to reduce the size of the team to 13 aside at senior intercounty level. At least to trial.
Simple to implement, leaves more space on a field encouraging more kicking. Less things for a ref to get wrong.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 03:13:57 PM
I see that this debate has been here on this thread since 2018 and we are no nearer a consensus.
I agree with the poster who thinks back passes should be outlawed as this would surely promote a watchable game where the opposition will have a decent chance of retrieving the ball.
I fail to understand how people find the new hurling more watchable than gaelic football with all it's faults.   Frees at least every minute and this excludes a hell of a lot more undetectable fouls, like throwing, arm holding etc etc.  and the majority of scores with such a small ball are from frees and most likely unseen until the umpire raises a flag.   I mourn the day when players could pull on the sliotar on the ground and in the air, and there were no rucks or scrums.   
Having said that, I switched off the recent Derry game as I simply didn't find that stuff remotely entertaining and I'm not from Ulster.

Just lazy on hurling and frees.. 7 frees and 8 frees from both teams on Sunday, which makes your post look a bit silly.. but carry on  ;D
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 10:57:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 03:13:57 PM
I see that this debate has been here on this thread since 2018 and we are no nearer a consensus.
I agree with the poster who thinks back passes should be outlawed as this would surely promote a watchable game where the opposition will have a decent chance of retrieving the ball.
I fail to understand how people find the new hurling more watchable than gaelic football with all it's faults.   Frees at least every minute and this excludes a hell of a lot more undetectable fouls, like throwing, arm holding etc etc.  and the majority of scores with such a small ball are from frees and most likely unseen until the umpire raises a flag.   I mourn the day when players could pull on the sliotar on the ground and in the air, and there were no rucks or scrums.   
Having said that, I switched off the recent Derry game as I simply didn't find that stuff remotely entertaining and I'm not from Ulster.

Just lazy on hurling and frees.. 7 frees and 8 frees from both teams on Sunday, which makes your post look a bit silly.. but carry on  ;D

With nearly 30000 posts you must be very bright.   Some of us can't count.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 12:10:41 AM
Ok, that makes me bright
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: johnnycool on June 10, 2022, 10:59:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 03:13:57 PM
I see that this debate has been here on this thread since 2018 and we are no nearer a consensus.
I agree with the poster who thinks back passes should be outlawed as this would surely promote a watchable game where the opposition will have a decent chance of retrieving the ball.
I fail to understand how people find the new hurling more watchable than gaelic football with all it's faults.   Frees at least every minute and this excludes a hell of a lot more undetectable fouls, like throwing, arm holding etc etc.  and the majority of scores with such a small ball are from frees and most likely unseen until the umpire raises a flag.   I mourn the day when players could pull on the sliotar on the ground and in the air, and there were no rucks or scrums.   
Having said that, I switched off the recent Derry game as I simply didn't find that stuff remotely entertaining and I'm not from Ulster.

Just lazy on hurling and frees.. 7 frees and 8 frees from both teams on Sunday, which makes your post look a bit silly.. but carry on  ;D

I'm with Ranty on the rucks and scrums though, a lad should be let pull that ball on the ground and scatter a load of the hens hoking and poking for it..

;)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on June 10, 2022, 10:59:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 09, 2022, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Ranty on June 09, 2022, 03:13:57 PM
I see that this debate has been here on this thread since 2018 and we are no nearer a consensus.
I agree with the poster who thinks back passes should be outlawed as this would surely promote a watchable game where the opposition will have a decent chance of retrieving the ball.
I fail to understand how people find the new hurling more watchable than gaelic football with all it's faults.   Frees at least every minute and this excludes a hell of a lot more undetectable fouls, like throwing, arm holding etc etc.  and the majority of scores with such a small ball are from frees and most likely unseen until the umpire raises a flag.   I mourn the day when players could pull on the sliotar on the ground and in the air, and there were no rucks or scrums.   
Having said that, I switched off the recent Derry game as I simply didn't find that stuff remotely entertaining and I'm not from Ulster.

Just lazy on hurling and frees.. 7 frees and 8 frees from both teams on Sunday, which makes your post look a bit silly.. but carry on  ;D

I'm with Ranty on the rucks and scrums though, a lad should be let pull that ball on the ground and scatter a load of the hens hoking and poking for it..

;)

Possession is key, primary possession. While in our day the ball was pulled on in rucks and in the air but 90% of that clearing will end up in opposition possession.

If I was managing again I'm looking to control the ball, I'd expect my players to do that...

I referee both games, there's more frees in football than hurling all day long in the games I cover
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Estimator on June 10, 2022, 10:12:01 PM
Brolly's new rule suggestions:

1.  The ball cannot be passed back to the goalkeeper.
2.  Kick-outs must go beyond the 45'.
3.  The ball can't go back into your half after passing the halfway line.
4.  Put an official in each half to ensure no sweepers are played, with a failure to follow the rule resulting in a 21-yard free for the opposition.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 10, 2022, 10:12:01 PM
Brolly's new rule suggestions:

1.  The ball cannot be passed back to the goalkeeper.
2.  Kick-outs must go beyond the 45'.
3.  The ball can't go back into your half after passing the halfway line.
4.  Put an official in each half to ensure no sweepers are played, with a failure to follow the rule resulting in a 21-yard free for the opposition.

1. Why would anyone ever want to be a keeper if they can't play a little bit of ball? We may as well dress him in armour like hockey keepers.

2. Impractical when the wind is up.

3. Makes sense to me.

4. There is no possible way to define a rule like this. It's actually one of the maddest ideas I've ever heard. Like take for example a 13m free, and 6 players are on the line. The free taker goes sideways. Are these 5 outfield players not all sweepers at this point?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: delgany on June 10, 2022, 10:23:05 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 10, 2022, 10:12:01 PM
Brolly's new rule suggestions:

1.  The ball cannot be passed back to the goalkeeper.
2.  Kick-outs must go beyond the 45'.
3.  The ball can't go back into your half after passing the halfway line.
4.  Put an official in each half to ensure no sweepers are played, with a failure to follow the rule resulting in a 21-yard free for the opposition.

And how would this work in club football ?
A total load of bollocks.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
2 or 3 point shot line on field for scores kicked outside it ? Like basketball
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
2 or 3 point shot line on field for scores kicked outside it ? Like basketball

And give a further reward to those individuals blessed with a long leg? Why???

Watching stupid c***ts who can't barely kick a ball 50m continually trying to shoot from 50m would be even worse than the crap chess we are currently watching.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 10, 2022, 10:44:53 PM
Aye the ref's are plenty! What planet are people on? Kick outs beyond the 45? Very rare now, last resort, so looking after forward kick marks defending kick marks now watching the halfway line for kick backs! f**k me!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
2 or 3 point shot line on field for scores kicked outside it ? Like basketball

And give a further reward to those individuals blessed with a long leg? Why???

Watching stupid c***ts who can't barely kick a ball 50m continually trying to shoot from 50m would be even worse than the crap chess we are currently watching.
could not be any worse than what we are watching now
Which is a better skill hand passing to a guy 5 yards away or 45/50m shooting
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:52:04 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
2 or 3 point shot line on field for scores kicked outside it ? Like basketball

And give a further reward to those individuals blessed with a long leg? Why???

Watching stupid c***ts who can't barely kick a ball 50m continually trying to shoot from 50m would be even worse than the crap chess we are currently watching.
could not be any worse than what we are watching now
Which is a better skill hand passing to a guy 5 yards away or 45/50m shooting

No..... it would be a lot worse.

At elite football the game would revolve around hand passing in an eternal circle until the gun forward gets free 45m out.

At normal level football, it would be endless failed attempt after endless failed attempt.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:58:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:52:04 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: Gmac on June 10, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
2 or 3 point shot line on field for scores kicked outside it ? Like basketball

And give a further reward to those individuals blessed with a long leg? Why???

Watching stupid c***ts who can't barely kick a ball 50m continually trying to shoot from 50m would be even worse than the crap chess we are currently watching.
could not be any worse than what we are watching now
Which is a better skill hand passing to a guy 5 yards away or 45/50m shooting

No..... it would be a lot worse.

At elite football the game would revolve around hand passing in an eternal circle until the gun forward gets free 45m out.

At normal level football, it would be endless failed attempt after endless failed attempt.
instead of hand passing at 25/35 m like it is now
At least if defenses had to push out to 45/50 it might open up a little inside.
Shots that go wide or end up short may create the odd goal chance and if nothing else there would be a change in possession and the other team could counter attack
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on June 10, 2022, 11:39:50 PM
People need to get over the fact that gaelic football, on the whole,  isn't an attractive sport. But it's our sport.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on June 11, 2022, 05:20:50 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 04, 2022, 08:26:28 PM
The game has been watered down with back-doors, super-8's, Tailteann Cups and what nots. There is no do or die anymore. Teams getting second chances in Competitions they don't care about or that they know they have no hope in.

The game has evolved into a version of Rugby League and Basketball.

wasn't inter-county football suppose to be an exception and club was the every week bread and butter  like you played for your county a few times a year if you were lucky and f off back to club now it seems its all about county.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: marty34 on June 11, 2022, 09:12:02 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2022, 11:39:50 PM
People need to get over the fact that gaelic football, on the whole,  isn't an attractive sport. But it's our sport.

Snooker has bad games, soccer has bad games and rugby has bad games.

That's sport.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on June 11, 2022, 10:29:34 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2022, 11:39:50 PM
People need to get over the fact that gaelic football, on the whole,  isn't an attractive sport. But it's our sport.

Yeah, that's true it's not a attractive sport. There's a small percentage of classy Gaelic footballers - Ciaran McDonald, Diarmuid Connolly, Mikie Sheehy......The rest are strong, fit and efficient athletes in general. I like watching and playing Soccer more. My kids prefer soccer. I played Gaelic football, the kids play it. They get a better buzz from soccer. Tribal and Parochial connections are what are the main sellers of Gaelic football. That and a tie to National identity.
Because of ''The Ban'' Gaelic football got a 50 year head start on Soccer and Rugby. Rugby isn't that attractive either.

That said I do love the drama some Gaelic football games provide and the stature it gives a successful county is uplifting.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: lenny on June 11, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2022, 11:39:50 PM
People need to get over the fact that gaelic football, on the whole,  isn't an attractive sport. But it's our sport.

The game has evolved into something like soccer or basketball. That probably comes from innovative coaches taking ideas from other sports. There are still many great and enjoyable games at all levels including county and club. If you watch soccer regularly you'd know that a majority of games there are really boring and practically unwatchable. Gaelic football has always had its share of poor games like other sports and always will. The game at the moment requires incredible fitness but also incredible skill levels. All players are comfortable on the ball in the top teams, otherwise opponents would target those players to get turnovers.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Bingowings on June 11, 2022, 11:47:07 AM
Always liked the idea of a no back court rule so you can't go back to your own half however I feel that on it's own just provided another advantage to defence. Although it's been tried already and ditched I feel a hand pass limit rule with a no back court rule is the way to go.

Limit consecutive hand passes to 2 until attacking team enters opposition 45 then unlimited consecutive hand passes allowed here.

This way teams will have to move the ball forward quickly, teams will need to leave men up the pitch to receive kicks and will incentivise defending teams to push up and go man to man to turn the ball over given a team will be forced to kick.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: armaghniac on June 11, 2022, 12:51:33 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 10, 2022, 10:12:01 PM
Brolly's new rule suggestions:

1.  The ball cannot be passed back to the goalkeeper.
2.  Kick-outs must go beyond the 45'.
3.  The ball can't go back into your half after passing the halfway line.
4.  Put an official in each half to ensure no sweepers are played, with a failure to follow the rule resulting in a 21-yard free for the opposition.

1. Why would anyone ever want to be a keeper if they can't play a little bit of ball? We may as well dress him in armour like hockey keepers.

2. Impractical when the wind is up.


Any suggestion of double scores for shots beyond the 45 or whatever also has big implications on a windy day. Wind is hardly unusual in Ireland.

I think the only implementable rule is one to require teams to keep 3 players (or some other number) in each half.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: From the Bunker on June 11, 2022, 02:32:06 PM
Adhere to the 4 step rule! Any player who takes even what resembles an extra step is pulled. Most players take a minimum of 6 these days.

No hand passes allowed within your own half.

No ball allowed back into your own half once crossed.

No Fisted points unless they are volleyed.

13 players on each side.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Stall the Bailer on June 11, 2022, 07:45:28 PM
Four changes I would like trialed.
1. Remove the forward mark.
2. Remove the back pass rule to goalkeeper on kickouts
3. Increase the size of the semi circle from 13m to 20m. All kickouts must go outside it and all players must be outside it for the kickout.
4. After a goal is scored the game is restarted by a throw in like the start of game/second half, 6 in each half and 2 in mid field per team. Any team delaying the restart will result in a free for the other team in mid field.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 11, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
1 rule change at a time FFS, it's not like there's a magic bullet, but we do need to see what may, or may not work. Too many laws of unintended consequences at play with each potential change.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: ONeill on June 12, 2022, 10:45:49 PM
Best game in the world apparently, according to RTE today. 2 weeks ago it needed massive surgery.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: armaghniac on June 13, 2022, 12:37:59 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 12, 2022, 10:45:49 PM
Best game in the world apparently, according to RTE today. 2 weeks ago it needed massive surgery.

Armagh were not playing 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 13, 2022, 07:58:12 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 11, 2022, 07:56:56 PM
1 rule change at a time FFS, it's not like there's a magic bullet, but we do need to see what may, or may not work. Too many laws of unintended consequences at play with each potential change.

Absolutely. This obsession with wanting to change the game drastically on the back of a few high profile games is madness. Try one rule change, with a trial of sorts first to see what the end result of the change is. A rule change can be well intentioned, but you never know how it works until being used. And then you've got the top coaches of the day who'll find a workaround. You could make something that was annoying but not a big deal into a far worse problem. And it needs to be able to be applied to the club game. Do slight changes at a time, if it needs to be done. Not 4 or 5 massive rule changes
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on June 13, 2022, 08:30:04 AM
Some very entertaining matches this weekend. It seems more managers are copping on that pushing up on opposition kickouts is more beneficial than dropping everyone back and conceding the kickouts.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Throw It Up Ref on June 13, 2022, 12:41:56 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 11, 2022, 12:51:33 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2022, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 10, 2022, 10:12:01 PM
Brolly's new rule suggestions:

1.  The ball cannot be passed back to the goalkeeper.
2.  Kick-outs must go beyond the 45'.
3.  The ball can't go back into your half after passing the halfway line.
4.  Put an official in each half to ensure no sweepers are played, with a failure to follow the rule resulting in a 21-yard free for the opposition.

1. Why would anyone ever want to be a keeper if they can't play a little bit of ball? We may as well dress him in armour like hockey keepers.

2. Impractical when the wind is up.


Any suggestion of double scores for shots beyond the 45 or whatever also has big implications on a windy day. Wind is hardly unusual in Ireland.

I think the only implementable rule is one to require teams to keep 3 players (or some other number) in each half.

I don't think Brolly has put much thought into this. He's speaking for the sake of speaking.

1.  The ball cannot be passed back to the goalkeeper. As mentioned by previous posters who in under god would want to do nets
2.  Kick-outs must go beyond the 45'. Teams will just pull all their forwards back behind the opposition 45. Kick outs will become a scrappy mess with so many bodies in the same zone
3.  The ball can't go back into your half after passing the halfway line. Encourages teams to drop off and wait at the halfway line before launching a press as soon as the opposition cross the halfway line knowing the opposition are trapped
4.  Put an official in each half to ensure no sweepers are played, with a failure to follow the rule resulting in a 21-yard free for the opposition. Don't understand how you're supposed to police this. If a forward gets away from his man and a team mate covers for the defender it's a free?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 13, 2022, 12:53:48 PM
How many more officials do they want and how can this be carried out at club level at all grades?  Referees in places are doing 2 games in a day!! The forward/back mark is bad enough to cover, being outside/inside the D at kick outs is literally called at every game by clowns..

Football consists of walking a lot sideways and back, and burst of speed to the 21 and then back again..
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: 03,05,08 on June 14, 2022, 01:52:37 PM
Not a big fan of loads of rule changes but would something like for kickouts teams have to have all players in their position area for the kick, most likely there are ways this can be exploited, but just an idea
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tiempo on June 14, 2022, 02:15:08 PM
How about this for an idea. Stop bitching and get on with it.

Actually I'll indulge myself one rule change. Bin the forward mark, its disproportionately unfair on defenders. Otherwise the game is optimised. If you don't like kickout strategy chess/discussion and a game that requires some sort of IQ for success perhaps follow something else, or join a lodge maybe
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Louther on June 14, 2022, 02:24:02 PM
Can trick and mess with rules all you like. Managers have time and ways to make the game negative.

Joe Brollys suggested rules laughable particularly the one round the extra free to spot a sweeper.

Limit the game preparation time as they seem to spend it fine tuning rigid defensive systems and keep ball. I think the qualifiers produce better games cause the teams have a week before they play each other so it's limited time worrying and planning on the opposition. League the same, you know the fixtures but games roll from one to the other.

Ban preseason to 4 weeks  ;D
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on June 14, 2022, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on June 14, 2022, 01:52:37 PM
Not a big fan of loads of rule changes but would something like for kickouts teams have to have all players in their position area for the kick, most likely there are ways this can be exploited, but just an idea

After a goal the game should restart with a throw up in MF. Players back in traditional positions. Clock obv stopped and time added on appropriately.
Bin forward, backward and sideways mark. Mark from a Kick out I'm kind of ok with.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Derryman forever on June 14, 2022, 07:40:03 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on June 14, 2022, 01:52:37 PM
Not a big fan of loads of rule changes but would something like for kickouts teams have to have all players in their position area for the kick, most likely there are ways this can be exploited, but just an idea


Referee would need a lot of eyes.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: themac_23 on June 14, 2022, 09:07:04 PM
The Forward mark has to go, look at the Armagh goal at the start on Sunday. So many forwards would now just fire the hand up and take a point. It's a cop out and safe option. The Kildare forwards didn't use it a good few times on sat as well, refreshing to see proper corner forward play again
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on June 14, 2022, 09:12:58 PM
Quote from: tiempo on June 14, 2022, 02:15:08 PM
How about this for an idea. Stop bitching and get on with it.

Actually I'll indulge myself one rule change. Bin the forward mark, its disproportionately unfair on defenders. Otherwise the game is optimised. If you don't like kickout strategy chess/discussion and a game that requires some sort of IQ for success perhaps follow something else, or join a lodge maybe

Yep.
That's my thinking on it too.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: AustinPowers on June 14, 2022, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2022, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on June 14, 2022, 01:52:37 PM
Not a big fan of loads of rule changes but would something like for kickouts teams have to have all players in their position area for the kick, most likely there are ways this can be exploited, but just an idea

After a goal the game should restart with a throw up in MF. Players back in traditional positions. Clock obv stopped and time added on appropriately.
Bin forward, backward and sideways mark. Mark from a Kick out I'm kind of ok with.

I would throw it up  after every score. There must be 6 v 6 in defence and attack. It would get rid of the mass defence and we could see lots of goals similar to  Grugan's  on Sunday.

This tapping it out to the corner back, followed by 200 fist passes, and still in your own half nonsense is boring the hole off people .
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blanketattack on June 14, 2022, 11:59:46 PM
Basketball had this same issue of keep ball in the 1950s, and it was solved with the introduction of a shot clock of 24 seconds.
A shot clock in Gaelic Football would have a similar success I reckon, maybe around the minute mark.
It might have to be similar to Hawkeye in that it can only be implemented some of the time e.g. from provincial finals onwards and implemented by someone besides the ref.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on June 15, 2022, 07:35:01 AM
A shot clock would literally force the defensive team to have all 15 men inside their own 45 , so the attacking team is restricted to long range efforts at the clock runs out.

Were people not entertained at the weekend? Under the current rules.

Leave them alone. If managers are stupid enough to play full on defence and never push up on opponents kick outs, then leave them at it and let them continue to be losers. Positive play pays off
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 15, 2022, 09:20:55 AM
Quote from: AustinPowers on June 14, 2022, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2022, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on June 14, 2022, 01:52:37 PM
Not a big fan of loads of rule changes but would something like for kickouts teams have to have all players in their position area for the kick, most likely there are ways this can be exploited, but just an idea

After a goal the game should restart with a throw up in MF. Players back in traditional positions. Clock obv stopped and time added on appropriately.
Bin forward, backward and sideways mark. Mark from a Kick out I'm kind of ok with.

I would throw it up  after every score. There must be 6 v 6 in defence and attack. It would get rid of the mass defence and we could see lots of goals similar to  Grugan's  on Sunday.

This tapping it out to the corner back, followed by 200 fist passes, and still in your own half nonsense is boring the hole off people .

This will slow the game down no end. While people jog back into position. Ball out of play as much as it's in. Be like an American football game.

Give me the quick kick out any day.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dabh on June 15, 2022, 10:01:39 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 15, 2022, 09:20:55 AM
Quote from: AustinPowers on June 14, 2022, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 14, 2022, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on June 14, 2022, 01:52:37 PM
Not a big fan of loads of rule changes but would something like for kickouts teams have to have all players in their position area for the kick, most likely there are ways this can be exploited, but just an idea

After a goal the game should restart with a throw up in MF. Players back in traditional positions. Clock obv stopped and time added on appropriately.
Bin forward, backward and sideways mark. Mark from a Kick out I'm kind of ok with.




will this not just result up with the 'inferior' midfielders grapling, dragging, holding, blocking, fouling, faking head injuries... anything to prevent the armagh type long ball into the full forward.

i see Gary Brennan in the Examiner this week propose 'having just one player from each team contest the throw-in with the other two players outside the 65m line' to overcome the consistent fouling at the throw-in.  Would have certainly suited him as a player.

Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 15, 2022, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on June 14, 2022, 11:59:46 PM
Basketball had this same issue of keep ball in the 1950s, and it was solved with the introduction of a shot clock of 24 seconds.
A shot clock in Gaelic Football would have a similar success I reckon, maybe around the minute mark.
It might have to be similar to Hawkeye in that it can only be implemented some of the time e.g. from provincial finals onwards and implemented by someone besides the ref.

If you can't see how this would be easily counteracted, then I don't know what to say. You would ruin the game with this one rule
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on June 15, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
What about taking quick free kicks. Even if there is a booking. What about kicking it to yourself? A solo? Would speed things up and really punish the foul. Teams try and foul players to slow it down. Hat tip to Gary Lineker who said this about soccer.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Louther on June 15, 2022, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 15, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
What about taking quick free kicks. Even if there is a booking. What about kicking it to yourself? A solo? Would speed things up and really punish the foul. Teams try and foul players to slow it down. Hat tip to Gary Lineker who said this about soccer.

One of the things I hate to see is a player who has won a free and who tries to play it quick from a metre or 2 away where free was awarded. Ball played quick to keep momentum and ref calls it back and argues with player who took it quick. Advantage lost over a metre or 2 and not as if it a scoring free.

Good refs let this go and keep game moving. Allowing the advantage of taking free quickly from current position rather than position of foul could help providing it not a scoring opportunity.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Armagh18 on June 15, 2022, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Louther on June 15, 2022, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 15, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
What about taking quick free kicks. Even if there is a booking. What about kicking it to yourself? A solo? Would speed things up and really punish the foul. Teams try and foul players to slow it down. Hat tip to Gary Lineker who said this about soccer.

One of the things I hate to see is a player who has won a free and who tries to play it quick from a metre or 2 away where free was awarded. Ball played quick to keep momentum and ref calls it back and argues with player who took it quick. Advantage lost over a metre or 2 and not as if it a scoring free.

Good refs let this go and keep game moving. Allowing the advantage of taking free quickly from current position rather than position of foul could help providing it not a scoring opportunity.
Completely agree with that, you're punishing the player that was fouled by making them come back a yard or two and letting the other team get set up.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tonto1888 on June 15, 2022, 01:31:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on June 15, 2022, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Louther on June 15, 2022, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 15, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
What about taking quick free kicks. Even if there is a booking. What about kicking it to yourself? A solo? Would speed things up and really punish the foul. Teams try and foul players to slow it down. Hat tip to Gary Lineker who said this about soccer.

One of the things I hate to see is a player who has won a free and who tries to play it quick from a metre or 2 away where free was awarded. Ball played quick to keep momentum and ref calls it back and argues with player who took it quick. Advantage lost over a metre or 2 and not as if it a scoring free.

Good refs let this go and keep game moving. Allowing the advantage of taking free quickly from current position rather than position of foul could help providing it not a scoring opportunity.
Completely agree with that, you're punishing the player that was fouled by making them come back a yard or two and letting the other team get set up.

I disagree with this. Just take the free from where the foul occurs. Its not that hard
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2022, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 15, 2022, 01:31:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on June 15, 2022, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Louther on June 15, 2022, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 15, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
What about taking quick free kicks. Even if there is a booking. What about kicking it to yourself? A solo? Would speed things up and really punish the foul. Teams try and foul players to slow it down. Hat tip to Gary Lineker who said this about soccer.

One of the things I hate to see is a player who has won a free and who tries to play it quick from a metre or 2 away where free was awarded. Ball played quick to keep momentum and ref calls it back and argues with player who took it quick. Advantage lost over a metre or 2 and not as if it a scoring free.

Good refs let this go and keep game moving. Allowing the advantage of taking free quickly from current position rather than position of foul could help providing it not a scoring opportunity.
Completely agree with that, you're punishing the player that was fouled by making them come back a yard or two and letting the other team get set up.

I disagree with this. Just take the free from where the foul occurs. Its not that hard

I wouldn't normally debate over a yard or two but some lads take the fecking piss and take from where the ball rolled off to, most ref's will bring it back if they aint ready too, but I'll be honest I've yet to see too many forward passes from a free unless its in a scoreable position.... straight back to the keeper would be the norm
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on June 15, 2022, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.

Or teach forwards how to kick the ball again
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 15, 2022, 03:58:37 PM
If they'd play like juveniles still do they'd be grand, up and down the pitch forward passes and plenty of attempts on goals/points 15 on 15 and most players staying in their general positions
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 20, 2022, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Agree, 30 sec limit on a any free, use it or lose it.

Good to see a consensus has emerged around what's needed (and I'm ignoring those who think it's grand as it is and we're letting a few high profile games influence our thinking - my guess is they don't watch much club football).
1. Remove forward mark
2. Ball cannot travel back over the halfway line
3. 3 players from each team must remain in each half at all times
4. Keeper can't accept a pass from teammate unless he's inside his own 21 (can't fathom people saying nobody would want to do goals anymore, have they missed the first 130 odd years of Gaelic football and started watching 3 years ago??).

All above rules are easily policed at all club senior levels and don't require additional refs or equipment installed.

I think rule changes are due to be considered ahead of 2023, so who do we send these off to? I presume you're all happy that we say they represent the views of the foremost Ulster gaa discussion board?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tyrone08 on June 20, 2022, 08:19:18 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 20, 2022, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Agree, 30 sec limit on a any free, use it or lose it.

Good to see a consensus has emerged around what's needed (and I'm ignoring those who think it's grand as it is and we're letting a few high profile games influence our thinking - my guess is they don't watch much club football).
1. Remove forward mark
2. Ball cannot travel back over the halfway line
3. 3 players from each team must remain in each half at all times
4. Keeper can't accept a pass from teammate unless he's inside his own 21 (can't fathom people saying nobody would want to do goals anymore, have they missed the first 130 odd years of Gaelic football and started watching 3 years ago??).

All above rules are easily policed at all club senior levels and don't require additional refs or equipment installed.

I think rule changes are due to be considered ahead of 2023, so who do we send these off to? I presume you're all happy that we say they represent the views of the foremost Ulster gaa discussion board?

So you expect a ref to keep up with the attacking play while trying to monitor potential off the ball fouls along with keeping one eye back down the field to ensure  3 players remain in the other half of the field while also ensuring that no pass goes back past the halfway line.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 20, 2022, 08:35:25 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
+1
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2022, 08:52:44 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 20, 2022, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Agree, 30 sec limit on a any free, use it or lose it.

Good to see a consensus has emerged around what's needed (and I'm ignoring those who think it's grand as it is and we're letting a few high profile games influence our thinking - my guess is they don't watch much club football).
1. Remove forward mark
2. Ball cannot travel back over the halfway line
3. 3 players from each team must remain in each half at all times
4. Keeper can't accept a pass from teammate unless he's inside his own 21 (can't fathom people saying nobody would want to do goals anymore, have they missed the first 130 odd years of Gaelic football and started watching 3 years ago??).

All above rules are easily policed at all club senior levels and don't require additional refs or equipment installed.

I think rule changes are due to be considered ahead of 2023, so who do we send these off to? I presume you're all happy that we say they represent the views of the foremost Ulster gaa discussion board?

Send them to your club sec if you are in a club and they'll review them (wont take long) and they'll have a little chuckle and come back with "computer says no"
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Throw It Up Ref on June 20, 2022, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 20, 2022, 08:35:25 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
+1
+2


Trying to manipulate the spectacle of the sport through rule changes is a very difficult thing to do. Rather than trying to change fundamentals of the game and adding more onus on the referees in my opinion the law makers would be better focussing in on preventing teams from intentionally slowing play and committing cynical fouls. The game is blighted by intentional fouls and players delaying free kicks as a way to provide time for their team mates to get into cover. Very hard to clamp own on the fouls themselves as most are minor infractions. It would be good to see players picking up cards for intentionally delaying a free kick or midfield mark being taken. Moving the ball up is great but its also slow and not really advantageous if the other team has time to get cover in place.

We also have the absurd situation where nearly 10 years after the black card was introduced there are still loopholes to cynically foul a player through on the goal and not pick one up.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: marty34 on June 20, 2022, 09:26:43 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on June 20, 2022, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 20, 2022, 08:35:25 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
+1
+2


Trying to manipulate the spectacle of the sport through rule changes is a very difficult thing to do. Rather than trying to change fundamentals of the game and adding more onus on the referees in my opinion the law makers would be better focussing in on preventing teams from intentionally slowing play and committing cynical fouls. The game is blighted by intentional fouls and players delaying free kicks as a way to provide time for their team mates to get into cover. Very hard to clamp own on the fouls themselves as most are minor infractions. It would be good to see players picking up cards for intentionally delaying a free kick or midfield mark being taken. Moving the ball up is great but its also slow and not really advantageous if the other team has time to get cover in place.

We also have the absurd situation where nearly 10 years after the black card was introduced there are still loopholes to cynically foul a player through on the goal and not pick one up.

Correct.  Too much emphasis on Cavanagh's rugby style tackle instead of looking at the thing in the round.

A simple pull on the jersey or a 'clumbsy tackle' in the same situation and you'll be ok.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 20, 2022, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 20, 2022, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Agree, 30 sec limit on a any free, use it or lose it.

Good to see a consensus has emerged around what's needed (and I'm ignoring those who think it's grand as it is and we're letting a few high profile games influence our thinking - my guess is they don't watch much club football).
1. Remove forward mark
2. Ball cannot travel back over the halfway line
3. 3 players from each team must remain in each half at all times
4. Keeper can't accept a pass from teammate unless he's inside his own 21 (can't fathom people saying nobody would want to do goals anymore, have they missed the first 130 odd years of Gaelic football and started watching 3 years ago??).

All above rules are easily policed at all club senior levels and don't require additional refs or equipment installed.

I think rule changes are due to be considered ahead of 2023, so who do we send these off to? I presume you're all happy that we say they represent the views of the foremost Ulster gaa discussion board?

Good to see there's a consensus that this post is nonsense.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 21, 2022, 12:37:55 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
I'd love to know what your objections are to the rest of them? Do people like the endless recycling keep ball they current rules permit and which are permeating through the game at all levels?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 21, 2022, 01:03:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2022, 08:52:44 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 20, 2022, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Agree, 30 sec limit on a any free, use it or lose it.

Good to see a consensus has emerged around what's needed (and I'm ignoring those who think it's grand as it is and we're letting a few high profile games influence our thinking - my guess is they don't watch much club football).
1. Remove forward mark
2. Ball cannot travel back over the halfway line
3. 3 players from each team must remain in each half at all times
4. Keeper can't accept a pass from teammate unless he's inside his own 21 (can't fathom people saying nobody would want to do goals anymore, have they missed the first 130 odd years of Gaelic football and started watching 3 years ago??).

All above rules are easily policed at all club senior levels and don't require additional refs or equipment installed.

I think rule changes are due to be considered ahead of 2023, so who do we send these off to? I presume you're all happy that we say they represent the views of the foremost Ulster gaa discussion board?

Send them to your club sec if you are in a club and they'll review them (wont take long) and they'll have a little chuckle and come back with "computer says no"
Maybe I am the secretary!!
Thought I'd at least get support from you, given your lauding of proper football being played at u15 level. Do you feel that football should continue as is, or do we need rule tweaks to make the game a spectacle again? Being honest, I'd be surprised if there aren't pretty significant changes proposed by the rules committee this year - the vitriol down here around the Ulster final is unparalleled.in my experience. What's worse in my eyes is that every club in the country trying the same thing, I can't for the life of me understand why so many people are happy to watch it or don't accept that tweaking rules is exactly what sports administrators do in order to make their game a better product to watch and play.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 21, 2022, 01:08:39 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on June 20, 2022, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 20, 2022, 08:35:25 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
+1
+2


Trying to manipulate the spectacle of the sport through rule changes is a very difficult thing to do. Rather than trying to change fundamentals of the game and adding more onus on the referees in my opinion the law makers would be better focussing in on preventing teams from intentionally slowing play and committing cynical fouls. The game is blighted by intentional fouls and players delaying free kicks as a way to provide time for their team mates to get into cover. Very hard to clamp own on the fouls themselves as most are minor infractions. It would be good to see players picking up cards for intentionally delaying a free kick or midfield mark being taken. Moving the ball up is great but its also slow and not really advantageous if the other team has time to get cover in place.

We also have the absurd situation where nearly 10 years after the black card was introduced there are still loopholes to cynically foul a player through on the goal and not pick one up.
Agree fully, the Shane mcguigan incident in the Ulster final was a case in point, totally in the spirit of a black card, but technically probably correctly not a black card.
Worse was the Lee Chin incident at the weekend, he's dragged to floor in a rugby tackle, two hands around his leg, but, because there was a possibility that two Clare lads could cut off his run to goal, no penalty and no black card. Seems to have been technically correct, which proves how ridiculous the rule is.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on June 21, 2022, 02:22:04 AM
Bringing in a rule that says no passing backwards into your own half once you've crossed halfway would give teams an incentive not to cross the halfway line until they were sure they had a move on.  It would, I think, increase the amount of lateral and backwards passing you see in the game rather than reduce it.

I'm not advocating this, but if backwards/lateral passing is a problem you want addressed, then maybe a rule that all passes must be forward  would be the better way to go. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Hound on June 21, 2022, 08:40:05 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on June 15, 2022, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Louther on June 15, 2022, 12:03:14 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 15, 2022, 11:56:55 AM
What about taking quick free kicks. Even if there is a booking. What about kicking it to yourself? A solo? Would speed things up and really punish the foul. Teams try and foul players to slow it down. Hat tip to Gary Lineker who said this about soccer.

One of the things I hate to see is a player who has won a free and who tries to play it quick from a metre or 2 away where free was awarded. Ball played quick to keep momentum and ref calls it back and argues with player who took it quick. Advantage lost over a metre or 2 and not as if it a scoring free.

Good refs let this go and keep game moving. Allowing the advantage of taking free quickly from current position rather than position of foul could help providing it not a scoring opportunity.
Completely agree with that, you're punishing the player that was fouled by making them come back a yard or two and letting the other team get set up.
Yep, most referees (there'll always be the odd poor ref who is the exception) let this go now. Keeps the game moving and doesn't penalise the attacking team.
Of course, if someone is going directly for a score then it's different and the free should be from where the foul took place.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 21, 2022, 09:04:23 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on June 21, 2022, 02:22:04 AM
Bringing in a rule that says no passing backwards into your own half once you've crossed halfway would give teams an incentive not to cross the halfway line until they were sure they had a move on.  It would, I think, increase the amount of lateral and backwards passing you see in the game rather than reduce it.

I'm not advocating this, but if backwards/lateral passing is a problem you want addressed, then maybe a rule that all passes must be forward  would be the better way to go.

It needs trialled to learn the unintended consequences.

Personally I'd like to see the 2 x 45s being utilised this way rather than a halfway line.

I don't think it would end the laborious retention of possession as it would likely  generate lulls in the pace when evenly matched teams informally agree to a breather here and there. But what it would do (I'm fairly certain) is make clock management of a 3-4 lead nigh on impossible - for it would give the team that's trailing, the ability to force their opponents into a decreasing space which innately would force turnovers - either by scores, wides or tackles.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 21, 2022, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 21, 2022, 01:03:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2022, 08:52:44 AM
Quote from: onefineday on June 20, 2022, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on June 15, 2022, 03:27:59 PM
Stop keepers coming up to take frees and 45s kills about 2 mins at a time.
Agree, 30 sec limit on a any free, use it or lose it.

Good to see a consensus has emerged around what's needed (and I'm ignoring those who think it's grand as it is and we're letting a few high profile games influence our thinking - my guess is they don't watch much club football).
1. Remove forward mark
2. Ball cannot travel back over the halfway line
3. 3 players from each team must remain in each half at all times
4. Keeper can't accept a pass from teammate unless he's inside his own 21 (can't fathom people saying nobody would want to do goals anymore, have they missed the first 130 odd years of Gaelic football and started watching 3 years ago??).

All above rules are easily policed at all club senior levels and don't require additional refs or equipment installed.

I think rule changes are due to be considered ahead of 2023, so who do we send these off to? I presume you're all happy that we say they represent the views of the foremost Ulster gaa discussion board?

Send them to your club sec if you are in a club and they'll review them (wont take long) and they'll have a little chuckle and come back with "computer says no"
Maybe I am the secretary!!
Thought I'd at least get support from you, given your lauding of proper football being played at u15 level. Do you feel that football should continue as is, or do we need rule tweaks to make the game a spectacle again? Being honest, I'd be surprised if there aren't pretty significant changes proposed by the rules committee this year - the vitriol down here around the Ulster final is unparalleled.in my experience. What's worse in my eyes is that every club in the country trying the same thing, I can't for the life of me understand why so many people are happy to watch it or don't accept that tweaking rules is exactly what sports administrators do in order to make their game a better product to watch and play.

To give another example, the reserve game I did last night had no defensive football at all, its only in games/leagues/competitions that matter it seems...

But some of your points will actually be difficult to administer during a game, checking for 3 players inside, while I'm tracking the ball, looking for off the ball stuff and looking at forwards, the ball can't travel back over the halfway line? the ball is played out of defence and two lads are jumping for the ball, it breaks off some player,  goes back over the halfway line, players all calling for it...

Bad enough players calling for lads inside the D every time even though they are well outside of it, the breaking the line for sidelines is bad enough.. The only one that makes sense is the forward mark, in fact any mark should be ditched, how many keepers or managers look/want to kick the ball long? None, its out of desperation and lazy defenders not making space
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 21, 2022, 10:17:59 AM
MR2, I don't see why the line(s) would be difficult to referee. Define it as: If a man in possession of the ball carries or passes it backwards across the line, it's a 45 to the opposition. This means that should a breaking ball or blocked pass or clean tackle force the ball back across the line, it's not a foul... for the team wasn't in control of the ball.

I'd also like some commonsense applied that if a player, who receives the ball on or around the line then crosses the line in the action of receiving the ball, then that's not a foul either. The purpose of the rule isn't to penalise attacking play; it's to compel teams to drive out.

A man who gets gobbled up the right side of the line and driven back though, that's a foul against him. He should have moved it quicker.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 21, 2022, 10:36:11 AM
I think many here need to think of the rule of unintended consequences. I get most of the suggestions are well intentioned, but how will they work in reality?

Can't cross back over a certain line. Will the attacking team not just wait for ages before committing? They won't want to lose the ball quickly until they are set against a possible counter attack. And the defence? Just need to create a line just inside that line of no return. Swarm any player who crosses it as they can't return.

A shot clock. Are the players fit enough to basically shuttle run for 75+ minutes? They already run more per minute than the average Premier League footballer. And that's with some slower build up plays included in that. If we're essentially shuttle running players to get a shot away every 45 seconds, they'll fall down by half time. Teams already get a nice average number of shots away per game. Are we really saying this is needed? The odd 2+ minute is the exception, not the norm.

I really think you need to be careful on what to bring in. As they can have huge unintended consequences as you try counteract them.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 21, 2022, 10:38:49 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 21, 2022, 10:17:59 AM
MR2, I don't see why the line(s) would be difficult to referee. Define it as: If a man in possession of the ball carries or passes it backwards across the line, it's a 45 to the opposition. This means that should a breaking ball or blocked pass or clean tackle force the ball back across the line, it's not a foul... for the team wasn't in control of the ball.

I'd also like some commonsense applied that if a player, who receives the ball on or around the line then crosses the line in the action of receiving the ball, then that's not a foul either. The purpose of the rule isn't to penalise attacking play; it's to compel teams to drive out.

A man who gets gobbled up the right side of the line and driven back though, that's a foul against him. He should have moved it quicker.

Its the gurning and moaning that would go with it that I'm probably more concerned with.. I want to turn up play the game and not be called a baldy wee cnut  ;D when they feel their interpretation is different to mine  ;)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: general_lee on June 21, 2022, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: onefineday on June 21, 2022, 12:37:55 AM
Quote from: general_lee on June 20, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Quote from: Derryman forever on June 20, 2022, 06:33:49 AM
They don't represent  mine.
Apart from the removal of the forward mark (which is a load of shite) I disagree with the rest of that
I'd love to know what your objections are to the rest of them? Do people like the endless recycling keep ball they current rules permit and which are permeating through the game at all levels?
There's fa wrong with football as it is, any of the recent rules introduced have not changed anything. Why bring in more rules that won't affect anything?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 22, 2022, 01:20:46 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on June 21, 2022, 10:36:11 AM
I think many here need to think of the rule of unintended consequences. I get most of the suggestions are well intentioned, but how will they work in reality?

Can't cross back over a certain line. Will the attacking team not just wait for ages before committing? They won't want to lose the ball quickly until they are set against a possible counter attack. And the defence? Just need to create a line just inside that line of no return. Swarm any player who crosses it as they can't return.

A shot clock. Are the players fit enough to basically shuttle run for 75+ minutes? They already run more per minute than the average Premier League footballer. And that's with some slower build up plays included in that. If we're essentially shuttle running players to get a shot away every 45 seconds, they'll fall down by half time. Teams already get a nice average number of shots away per game. Are we really saying this is needed? The odd 2+ minute is the exception, not the norm.

I really think you need to be careful on what to bring in. As they can have huge unintended consequences as you try counteract them.
Absolutely agree re unintended consequences, that's why changes need trialled and properly evaluated by people who understand the potential downsides.
I heard Michael quinlivan proposing shotclock which to my mind proved that great players may not be the best architects for rule designs - shot clocks are a nuts idea, not transferrable to club level and as you point out the fitness implications could be massive.
I get the point re teams not committing to crossing that line, be it halfway or 45, but that's why they have to keep a certain amount of men in each half, admit it's an extra job for the ref, but I imagine the crowd and opposition will assist with policing it!
I've been watching games with an eye of what wouldn't be able to happen, since I first saw wobbler's suggestion for no back pass from beyond half way and really think it would make a huge difference and has potential to transform the game. I'm not clear on your mention of 45 lines wobbler, but I think halfway would work well. Apart from the recycling of hall, the game management aspect when a team runs out the clock is a real curse too.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trueblue1234 on June 22, 2022, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: onefineday on June 22, 2022, 01:20:46 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on June 21, 2022, 10:36:11 AM
I think many here need to think of the rule of unintended consequences. I get most of the suggestions are well intentioned, but how will they work in reality?

Can't cross back over a certain line. Will the attacking team not just wait for ages before committing? They won't want to lose the ball quickly until they are set against a possible counter attack. And the defence? Just need to create a line just inside that line of no return. Swarm any player who crosses it as they can't return.

A shot clock. Are the players fit enough to basically shuttle run for 75+ minutes? They already run more per minute than the average Premier League footballer. And that's with some slower build up plays included in that. If we're essentially shuttle running players to get a shot away every 45 seconds, they'll fall down by half time. Teams already get a nice average number of shots away per game. Are we really saying this is needed? The odd 2+ minute is the exception, not the norm.

I really think you need to be careful on what to bring in. As they can have huge unintended consequences as you try counteract them.
Absolutely agree re unintended consequences, that's why changes need trialled and properly evaluated by people who understand the potential downsides.
I heard Michael quinlivan proposing shotclock which to my mind proved that great players may not be the best architects for rule designs - shot clocks are a nuts idea, not transferrable to club level and as you point out the fitness implications could be massive.
I get the point re teams not committing to crossing that line, be it halfway or 45, but that's why they have to keep a certain amount of men in each half, admit it's an extra job for the ref, but I imagine the crowd and opposition will assist with policing it!
I've been watching games with an eye of what wouldn't be able to happen, since I first saw wobbler's suggestion for no back pass from beyond half way and really think it would make a huge difference and has potential to transform the game. I'm not clear on your mention of 45 lines wobbler, but I think halfway would work well. Apart from the recycling of hall, the game management aspect when a team runs out the clock is a real curse too.

If your relying on this then it's already dead in the water.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 22, 2022, 12:32:18 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on June 22, 2022, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: onefineday on June 22, 2022, 01:20:46 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on June 21, 2022, 10:36:11 AM
I think many here need to think of the rule of unintended consequences. I get most of the suggestions are well intentioned, but how will they work in reality?

Can't cross back over a certain line. Will the attacking team not just wait for ages before committing? They won't want to lose the ball quickly until they are set against a possible counter attack. And the defence? Just need to create a line just inside that line of no return. Swarm any player who crosses it as they can't return.

A shot clock. Are the players fit enough to basically shuttle run for 75+ minutes? They already run more per minute than the average Premier League footballer. And that's with some slower build up plays included in that. If we're essentially shuttle running players to get a shot away every 45 seconds, they'll fall down by half time. Teams already get a nice average number of shots away per game. Are we really saying this is needed? The odd 2+ minute is the exception, not the norm.

I really think you need to be careful on what to bring in. As they can have huge unintended consequences as you try counteract them.
Absolutely agree re unintended consequences, that's why changes need trialled and properly evaluated by people who understand the potential downsides.
I heard Michael quinlivan proposing shotclock which to my mind proved that great players may not be the best architects for rule designs - shot clocks are a nuts idea, not transferrable to club level and as you point out the fitness implications could be massive.
I get the point re teams not committing to crossing that line, be it halfway or 45, but that's why they have to keep a certain amount of men in each half, admit it's an extra job for the ref, but I imagine the crowd and opposition will assist with policing it!
I've been watching games with an eye of what wouldn't be able to happen, since I first saw wobbler's suggestion for no back pass from beyond half way and really think it would make a huge difference and has potential to transform the game. I'm not clear on your mention of 45 lines wobbler, but I think halfway would work well. Apart from the recycling of hall, the game management aspect when a team runs out the clock is a real curse too.

If your relying on this then it's already dead in the water.

Yeah, the blatant non fouls that are called for by buck ejjits at side of the of the pitch or players 100's of meters away from the ref calling it is hilarious.

Can you imagine a ref who blows for every call given out during a game?
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Keyser soze on June 22, 2022, 12:57:33 PM
This guy is clearly on the windup, cant believe he has hooked so many experienced posters with his nonsense. I suppose it shows how far down the rabbit hole a large percentage of people have been led that they take this outlandish sort of thing seriously. 
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on June 22, 2022, 02:01:16 PM
Ditch the mark.
Trial 13 aside and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: trailer on June 22, 2022, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 22, 2022, 02:01:16 PM
Ditch the mark.
Trial 13 aside and leave it at that.

Take away a sub as well. More space, more running, and less fresh legs from the bench. Games could be absolutely manic in the last 10 /15 mins.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Estimator on June 24, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
"Paul Rouse: Eight rule changes that could help to improve Gaelic Football" https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40902359.html

Why make one change when you can make 8!!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 24, 2022, 08:12:54 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
"Paul Rouse: Eight rule changes that could help to improve Gaelic Football" https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40902359.html

Why make one change when you can make 8!!

A lot of sense in those ideas in fairness
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on June 24, 2022, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 22, 2022, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 22, 2022, 02:01:16 PM
Ditch the mark.
Trial 13 aside and leave it at that.

Take away a sub as well. More space, more running, and less fresh legs from the bench. Games could be absolutely manic in the last 10 /15 mins.
More space means more running and so it will benefit the athletes rather than the ballers.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: LeoMc on June 24, 2022, 10:01:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 24, 2022, 08:12:54 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
"Paul Rouse: Eight rule changes that could help to improve Gaelic Football" https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40902359.html

Why make one change when you can make 8!!

A lot of sense in those ideas in fairness
Most of them.

Not too sure about the 1v1 throw in or picking the ball off the ground. Seeing 2 women scrabbling on the ground to get the ball up is no great advertisement for the game.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Milltown Row2 on June 24, 2022, 10:12:35 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 24, 2022, 10:01:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 24, 2022, 08:12:54 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
"Paul Rouse: Eight rule changes that could help to improve Gaelic Football" https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40902359.html

Why make one change when you can make 8!!

A lot of sense in those ideas in fairness
Most of them.

Not too sure about the 1v1 throw in or picking the ball off the ground. Seeing 2 women scrabbling on the ground to get the ball up is no great advertisement for the game.

They can't pick it up while on the ground, must be not on knees... 1v1 in for throw in is no biggy
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Eire90 on June 24, 2022, 11:23:39 PM
not a fan of 40 minute halfs 35 is just right we live in a world of fast tech and instant gratification people maybe  put off with 40 min  halfs  soccer should go to 35 min halfs
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 25, 2022, 12:46:02 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 24, 2022, 08:12:54 PM
Quote from: Estimator on June 24, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
"Paul Rouse: Eight rule changes that could help to improve Gaelic Football" https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40902359.html

Why make one change when you can make 8!!

A lot of sense in those ideas in fairness
Love the 5 point goal proposal, hurling probably needs that more though, but still, it would be incredibly interesting to see how it shapes so many other facets of play. And let's be honest, there's nothing like the net bulging to get a crowd going.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 25, 2022, 12:48:35 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2022, 12:57:33 PM
This guy is clearly on the windup, cant believe he has hooked so many experienced posters with his nonsense. I suppose it shows how far down the rabbit hole a large percentage of people have been led that they take this outlandish sort of thing seriously.
Well one of us is out of touch Keyser, I suppose we'll just watch this space over the next number of months and find out which of us!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on June 25, 2022, 09:09:47 PM
That Dublin v Cork game was some snoozer.  Hoping for better tomorrow
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on June 25, 2022, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on June 25, 2022, 09:09:47 PM
That Dublin v Cork game was some snoozer.  Hoping for better tomorrow

Absolutely dire, broke the rule of a lifetime and left early. Bring back Con!!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Rossfan on June 29, 2022, 10:17:12 AM
When are Refs going to enforce the rule about taking frees from the right place when they're kicked from the hand.
The amount of metre stealing is gone to the dogs altogether. Then last Sunday we even had the equalising free from the ground stealing 6 or 7 metres.
Get those soccerball canisters and mark the spot.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Dreadnought on June 29, 2022, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 29, 2022, 10:17:12 AM
When are Refs going to enforce the rule about taking frees from the right place when they're kicked from the hand.
The amount of metre stealing is gone to the dogs altogether. Then last Sunday we even had the equalising free from the ground stealing 6 or 7 metres.
Get those soccerball canisters and mark the spot.

Agreed. Marks too. They should back away for the run up and kick from the mark. this stealing of 5 metres and making the angle better is a joke that's been let go on for too long
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: tbrick18 on June 29, 2022, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 24, 2022, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 22, 2022, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 22, 2022, 02:01:16 PM
Ditch the mark.
Trial 13 aside and leave it at that.

Take away a sub as well. More space, more running, and less fresh legs from the bench. Games could be absolutely manic in the last 10 /15 mins.
More space means more running and so it will benefit the athletes rather than the ballers.

Fitness will be a factor but no more than it is today.
More space will mean more likely to kick a ball in front of a forward and gives him a chance of winning it rather than it be swallowed up by 2-3 sweepers.
It gives the GK more options for kickouts.
It just generally makes it more difficult to play a blanket defence - which some think has ruined the game.
I don't necessarily agree with that opinion, but if you want faster games that are more high scoring, it's bound to help with that.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: befair on June 29, 2022, 08:09:32 PM
13-a-side might also give smaller cubs and counties a better chance, as would fewer subs.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: thewobbler on June 29, 2022, 09:06:21 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 29, 2022, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 24, 2022, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: trailer on June 22, 2022, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 22, 2022, 02:01:16 PM
Ditch the mark.
Trial 13 aside and leave it at that.

Take away a sub as well. More space, more running, and less fresh legs from the bench. Games could be absolutely manic in the last 10 /15 mins.
More space means more running and so it will benefit the athletes rather than the ballers.

Fitness will be a factor but no more than it is today.
More space will mean more likely to kick a ball in front of a forward and gives him a chance of winning it rather than it be swallowed up by 2-3 sweepers.
It gives the GK more options for kickouts.
It just generally makes it more difficult to play a blanket defence - which some think has ruined the game.
I don't necessarily agree with that opinion, but if you want faster games that are more high scoring, it's bound to help with that.

It's not the need for fitness I'd be worried about so much as the need for raw speed. As someone slower than a cart horse the thought of 13 a side on a full size field brings out horrors.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on July 11, 2022, 09:11:49 AM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been resurrected. The big positive to me as I watched the Derry v Galway game, was this might just be the nadir, the point where the clamour for change can no longer be ignored. We've seen where the tactical evolution has gotten us, almost 70k in croker and the place like a library for most of the 1st half. Chances are we'll see more of the same in a fortnight, though it won't work to the same degree. Regardless of that, the real problem is that these big games are providing a window into what's happening up and down the country at club level. Managers see that it can bring results, players for the most part hate it, but if they don't co-operate, they won't be picked. The sport needs some simple, easily enforceable rules which can be applied to all games up and down the country.
To me, no passing back beyond half way is the most straightforward, probably needs at least 2 players from each side in each half at all times too though.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Estimator on July 11, 2022, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: onefineday on July 11, 2022, 09:11:49 AM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been resurrected. The big positive to me as I watched the Derry v Galway game, was this might just be the nadir, the point where the clamour for change can no longer be ignored. We've seen where the tactical evolution has gotten us, almost 70k in croker and the place like a library for most of the 1st half. Chances are we'll see more of the same in a fortnight, though it won't work to the same degree. Regardless of that, the real problem is that these big games are providing a window into what's happening up and down the country at club level. Managers see that it can bring results, players for the most part hate it, but if they don't co-operate, they won't be picked. The sport needs some simple, easily enforceable rules which can be applied to all games up and down the country.
To me, no passing back beyond half way is the most straightforward, probably needs at least 2 players from each side in each half at all times too though.

I'm glad we didn't see any of that nonsense in the Dublin and Kerry game yesterday  ::)
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: sligoman2 on July 11, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: Estimator on July 11, 2022, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: onefineday on July 11, 2022, 09:11:49 AM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been resurrected. The big positive to me as I watched the Derry v Galway game, was this might just be the nadir, the point where the clamour for change can no longer be ignored. We've seen where the tactical evolution has gotten us, almost 70k in croker and the place like a library for most of the 1st half. Chances are we'll see more of the same in a fortnight, though it won't work to the same degree. Regardless of that, the real problem is that these big games are providing a window into what's happening up and down the country at club level. Managers see that it can bring results, players for the most part hate it, but if they don't co-operate, they won't be picked. The sport needs some simple, easily enforceable rules which can be applied to all games up and down the country.
To me, no passing back beyond half way is the most straightforward, probably needs at least 2 players from each side in each half at all times too though.

I'm glad we didn't see any of that nonsense in the Dublin and Kerry game yesterday  ::)

So am I but unfortunately that is the exception rather than the rule recently.  Derry Galway was a snoozer as was Derry v Donegal, as was Cork v Dublin.  It's sad to hear Croke Park so quiet during an All-Ireland semi final.  I've said before, the coaches won't change it so the governing body must before it's too late.  Start by eliminating back passes over the half way line and see how it works..
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: Mario on July 11, 2022, 02:47:59 PM
Eliminating back passes in the own half won't do much. In the first half when derry were on top they had a 4 man full forward line and nearly everyone in Galways half, they didn't need to pass it back into their own half.

Gallagher gets stick for this style of play but Galway are the best at it from their games this year. I expect them to do the same in the final.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: blanketattack on July 11, 2022, 11:55:21 PM
A lot of similar possession based team sports have means of preventing stalling and passive play.
- Handball - ref can decide to penalise a team for passive play - where he sees a lack of attacking intent, penalty is loss of possession.
- Rugby League -you get 6 possessions in which to try to score. After the 6th possession gets ended with a tackle, the opposition gets possession. Also there's time limits for dropouts and forming scrums.
- American Football - 4 possessions to either score or move the ball forward 10 yards
- Basketball, 24 second shot clock
- Lacrosse, 80 second shot clock, 20 second time limit to get into opposition's half. Also a max of 6 players can be in attacking half and a max of 7 players (incl. Goalie) in defending half (Lacrosse is 10 a side).
- Australian rules - nothing to stop passive play. 30 second shot clock after a mark.
- Rugby union. Only restriction is 90 seconds to take a conversion.

So definitely something to learn from these sports.
I reckon 45 seconds shotclock for freekicks.
I like the idea of a maximum no. of defenders allowed in your own half but might be hard to keep track of.
To prevent stalling could choose either no. of possessions e.g. 12 or a shot-clock.
I like the idea of 12 possessions as it might encourage early kicks into the forwards and then have 8 or 9 possessions left to manufacture a score, but shot-clock of 80 seconds might be the easiest to track, by an independent timekeeper.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on July 12, 2022, 01:24:07 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on July 11, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: Estimator on July 11, 2022, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: onefineday on July 11, 2022, 09:11:49 AM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been resurrected. The big positive to me as I watched the Derry v Galway game, was this might just be the nadir, the point where the clamour for change can no longer be ignored. We've seen where the tactical evolution has gotten us, almost 70k in croker and the place like a library for most of the 1st half. Chances are we'll see more of the same in a fortnight, though it won't work to the same degree. Regardless of that, the real problem is that these big games are providing a window into what's happening up and down the country at club level. Managers see that it can bring results, players for the most part hate it, but if they don't co-operate, they won't be picked. The sport needs some simple, easily enforceable rules which can be applied to all games up and down the country.
To me, no passing back beyond half way is the most straightforward, probably needs at least 2 players from each side in each half at all times too though.

I'm glad we didn't see any of that nonsense in the Dublin and Kerry game yesterday  ::)

So am I but unfortunately that is the exception rather than the rule recently.  Derry Galway was a snoozer as was Derry v Donegal, as was Cork v Dublin.  It's sad to hear Croke Park so quiet during an All-Ireland semi final.  I've said before, the coaches won't change it so the governing body must before it's too late.  Start by eliminating back passes over the half way line and see how it works..
I think that's irony sligoman, there was a fair few patches of it yesterday too, not to the same extent, but it was there.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on July 12, 2022, 01:28:47 AM
Quote from: Mario on July 11, 2022, 02:47:59 PM
Eliminating back passes in the own half won't do much. In the first half when derry were on top they had a 4 man full forward line and nearly everyone in Galways half, they didn't need to pass it back into their own half.

Gallagher gets stick for this style of play but Galway are the best at it from their games this year. I expect them to do the same in the final.
But if backpasses are removed as an option then the defending team can push up and attack the ball, safe in the knowledge that it won't end up as piggy in the middle. The attacking team might even be, heaven forbid, forced to take a potshot from an 80% probability position, at least the poor unfortunate who tried it could defend himself to his manager by saying it was his only option!
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: onefineday on July 12, 2022, 01:37:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on July 11, 2022, 11:55:21 PM
A lot of similar possession based team sports have means of preventing stalling and passive play.
- Handball - ref can decide to penalise a team for passive play - where he sees a lack of attacking intent, penalty is loss of possession.
- Rugby League -you get 6 possessions in which to try to score. After the 6th possession gets ended with a tackle, the opposition gets possession. Also there's time limits for dropouts and forming scrums.
- American Football - 4 possessions to either score or move the ball forward 10 yards
- Basketball, 24 second shot clock
- Lacrosse, 80 second shot clock, 20 second time limit to get into opposition's half. Also a max of 6 players can be in attacking half and a max of 7 players (incl. Goalie) in defending half (Lacrosse is 10 a side).
- Australian rules - nothing to stop passive play. 30 second shot clock after a mark.
- Rugby union. Only restriction is 90 seconds to take a conversion.

So definitely something to learn from these sports.
I reckon 45 seconds shotclock for freekicks.
I like the idea of a maximum no. of defenders allowed in your own half but might be hard to keep track of.
To prevent stalling could choose either no. of possessions e.g. 12 or a shot-clock.
I like the idea of 12 possessions as it might encourage early kicks into the forwards and then have 8 or 9 possessions left to manufacture a score, but shot-clock of 80 seconds might be the easiest to track, by an independent timekeeper.
Merit in a few of those, but needs to something easily policeable at all adult levels, that means shot clocks and number of possessions are out. The handball rule is pretty subjective and would result in a referee somewhere meeting a sorry end! Simplest seems to be banning going back into your own half - there was probably more of that in Kerry v Dublin than in the Derry v Galway game actually, given how deep Galway sat back. It probably needs a restriction on players too though.
Title: Re: Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball
Post by: mrdeeds on July 31, 2022, 06:38:33 PM
Division 1 league final today in Cavan. 6 18 to 4 23 scoreline. Gearoid McKiernan scored 3 14 and still lost.