Irish Business Thread

[Jeepers Creepers]

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/features/meet-the-man-whose-dream-laid-foundations-for-a-new-superchurch-in-co-antrim-36362100.html

Did you know God is a shareholder in Wrightbus?

They'll be alright then.

[APM]

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/features/meet-the-man-whose-dream-laid-foundations-for-a-new-superchurch-in-co-antrim-36362100.html

Did you know God is a shareholder in Wrightbus?

They'll be alright then.

Funny I thought it quite dysfunctional, but that is another way of looking at it 

[TabClear]

£181m sounds like a very low turnover for a company of 1800 employees. Sure thats got to be minimum of £50m in wages before they have even started into overheads and materials which must be considerable. Surprised they made any profit TBH

Sounds like they were walking a tightrope and they were always just about making it over the line......until they didnt.

Thought that myself how can a company survive on a margin of 0.66% is beyond me and that's 2017 it sounds like 2018 is going to be a considerable loss!!

I hope they can do something that's a serious amount of jobs to hemorrhage!

0.66% is extremely low but typical margins in manufacturing here would be low single figures of percent.

Like someone said above, manufacturing in general here is walking a tightrope.

Depends on the industry I suppose, but if your margins are that low then the slightest market bump or pimple is going to leave you exposed.

Is that common in this industry as I know of a previous company I worked in the margins were almost 200% but that was to cover very heavy development and R&D costs.

How are you defining margin JC? When I think of margin it is as profit (either gross/operating/before tax/after tax) as a percentage of revenues and so by definition it cannot be more than 100%?

Took a quick nosy at Wrightbus accounts there and while the account online are pretty out of date (Dec-17 is teh last full year). Interestingly while they made decent profits in both 2016 and 2017 they burned through about £10m cash. Assuming that 2018 and 2019 were not as profitable probably implies a significant cash outflow.

Not sure how much God was paid though....

[APM]

NAH
You have attributed those comments to me in the quote. I didn't write this - please correct!

[Milltown Row2]

£181m sounds like a very low turnover for a company of 1800 employees. Sure thats got to be minimum of £50m in wages before they have even started into overheads and materials which must be considerable. Surprised they made any profit TBH

Sounds like they were walking a tightrope and they were always just about making it over the line......until they didnt.

Thought that myself how can a company survive on a margin of 0.66% is beyond me and that's 2017 it sounds like 2018 is going to be a considerable loss!!

I hope they can do something that's a serious amount of jobs to hemorrhage!

0.66% is extremely low but typical margins in manufacturing here would be low single figures of percent.

Like someone said above, manufacturing in general here is walking a tightrope.

Depends on the industry I suppose, but if your margins are that low then the slightest market bump or pimple is going to leave you exposed.

Is that common in this industry as I know of a previous company I worked in the margins were almost 200% but that was to cover very heavy development and R&D costs.

How are you defining margin JC? When I think of margin it is as profit (either gross/operating/before tax/after tax) as a percentage of revenues and so by definition it cannot be more than 100%?

Took a quick nosy at Wrightbus accounts there and while the account online are pretty out of date (Dec-17 is teh last full year). Interestingly while they made decent profits in both 2016 and 2017 they burned through about £10m cash. Assuming that 2018 and 2019 were not as profitable probably implies a significant cash outflow.

Not sure how much God was paid though....

Generally its 10% 

[Franko]

£181m sounds like a very low turnover for a company of 1800 employees. Sure thats got to be minimum of £50m in wages before they have even started into overheads and materials which must be considerable. Surprised they made any profit TBH

Sounds like they were walking a tightrope and they were always just about making it over the line......until they didnt.

Thought that myself how can a company survive on a margin of 0.66% is beyond me and that's 2017 it sounds like 2018 is going to be a considerable loss!!

I hope they can do something that's a serious amount of jobs to hemorrhage!

0.66% is extremely low but typical margins in manufacturing here would be low single figures of percent.

Like someone said above, manufacturing in general here is walking a tightrope.

Depends on the industry I suppose, but if your margins are that low then the slightest market bump or pimple is going to leave you exposed.

Is that common in this industry as I know of a previous company I worked in the margins were almost 200% but that was to cover very heavy development and R&D costs.

Yeah, this would be the norm in this type of industrial manufacturing for mature markets (buses etc).  There is no room to make a mistake when doing this type of work here.  Hence we see so many local companies outsourcing much of this to eastern Europe / India /China with a lot of factories here being little more than final assembly lines.

[Franko]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

[trailer]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1153924101775515648?s=20

On
@BBCgmu
James Day from Coach & Bus Week tells
@BBCRichardM
about factors in UK bus market which are playing into Wrightbus woes.
1) Big splurge of investment by operators buying low floor buses to comply with the DDA is over
2) Local authority austerity in England means operators are getting less subsidy so cutting routes & buses
3) Ultra low emission vehicles still have high upfront costs so operators can't make big purchases there without government support.

Sounds like a demand issue to me.

[Milltown Row2]

Did Wrights not set up a factory in India?

An ex work colleague of mine, that got into teaching, had worked for Wright bus, but when he left they wanted him back some months later to head up the setting up of this factory in India, he was going to be well looked after but the man couldnt go at the time as his father was unwell and he was the only to look after him..


Do they still have it, or did that venture fall through?

[Franko]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1153924101775515648?s=20

On
@BBCgmu
James Day from Coach & Bus Week tells
@BBCRichardM
about factors in UK bus market which are playing into Wrightbus woes.
1) Big splurge of investment by operators buying low floor buses to comply with the DDA is over
2) Local authority austerity in England means operators are getting less subsidy so cutting routes & buses
3) Ultra low emission vehicles still have high upfront costs so operators can't make big purchases there without government support.

Sounds like a demand issue to me.

See part in bold.

These factors may affect them when trying to gain the investment required, as a potential investor will be looking well ahead of the two year window but lack of orders is not the cause of the current issue.

[NAG1]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1153924101775515648?s=20

On
@BBCgmu
James Day from Coach & Bus Week tells
@BBCRichardM
about factors in UK bus market which are playing into Wrightbus woes.
1) Big splurge of investment by operators buying low floor buses to comply with the DDA is over
2) Local authority austerity in England means operators are getting less subsidy so cutting routes & buses
3) Ultra low emission vehicles still have high upfront costs so operators can't make big purchases there without government support.

Sounds like a demand issue to me.

See part in bold.

These factors may affect them when trying to gain the investment required, as a potential investor will be looking well ahead of the two year window but lack of orders is not the cause of the current issue.

There will be very little sympathy for them in certain areas that's for sure.

[north_antrim_hound]

I think it's a case of bad management and they have lost quite a few contracts they where bidding on to a company from Egypt. Wright's have been trying to sell it for while as Mc Laren where over looking at it last year. F1 teams like them have very good energy recovery technology from their racing endeavors and Wrightbus is specialized in Eco friendly buses. It was a big thing at the time but obviously they seem something they didn't like, probably the balance sheets.

[trailer]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1153924101775515648?s=20

On
@BBCgmu
James Day from Coach & Bus Week tells
@BBCRichardM
about factors in UK bus market which are playing into Wrightbus woes.
1) Big splurge of investment by operators buying low floor buses to comply with the DDA is over
2) Local authority austerity in England means operators are getting less subsidy so cutting routes & buses
3) Ultra low emission vehicles still have high upfront costs so operators can't make big purchases there without government support.

Sounds like a demand issue to me.

See part in bold.

These factors may affect them when trying to gain the investment required, as a potential investor will be looking well ahead of the two year window but lack of orders is not the cause of the current issue.

What is the cause?
A lot on here are talking about mismanagement and that might be so to a certain extent, but this is a company that has grown significantly over the past number of years to employ 1400 people. I'd say they know a thing or two about running a business and a large scale one at that. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.
I hope the jobs are retained and the business gets all the support including financial that is needed to retain these jobs.

[Franko]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1153924101775515648?s=20

On
@BBCgmu
James Day from Coach & Bus Week tells
@BBCRichardM
about factors in UK bus market which are playing into Wrightbus woes.
1) Big splurge of investment by operators buying low floor buses to comply with the DDA is over
2) Local authority austerity in England means operators are getting less subsidy so cutting routes & buses
3) Ultra low emission vehicles still have high upfront costs so operators can't make big purchases there without government support.

Sounds like a demand issue to me.

See part in bold.

These factors may affect them when trying to gain the investment required, as a potential investor will be looking well ahead of the two year window but lack of orders is not the cause of the current issue.

What is the cause?
A lot on here are talking about mismanagement and that might be so to a certain extent, but this is a company that has grown significantly over the past number of years to employ 1400 people. I'd say they know a thing or two about running a business and a large scale one at that. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.
I hope the jobs are retained and the business gets all the support including financial that is needed to retain these jobs.

Mismanagement is a major one.  The processes in place were sustainable until the point that the company grew past a certain point.

Also, the rumours of an order to FirstGroup in Scotland which was taken on little more than a handshake then reneged upon (with many buses built and awaiting delivery) are, shall we say, not unfounded.  But I suppose that's also mismanagement...

[trailer]

Look the jobs might serve one community more than the other, but its 1400 jobs that all filters into the wider economy and they need supported / retained. Ian Paisley and Jim Allister doing the exact same as Colum Eastwood and Elisha McCallion would do if was Derry. Remains to be seen if they are successful. Lets hope they are.

Oh absolutely you're right in cases like this it's the wider chain supply that is highly affected. But I just find it hypocritical that Wright Bus are blaming their difficulties on uncertainty over Brexit when their founder openly endorsed  for Brexit.

But as others have commented it sounds like this day was always going to come sooner or later. I see on twitter they made a nice wee £4m donation to their church leaders.

I don't think they're blaming brexit. It's lower levels of demand for new buses. Their buses are actually cheaper than ever for overseas companies due to the weak pound.

Only half true.  But little to none of the raw materials for these machines are produced in the UK.  So the cost of building them increases as your pound doesn't go too far in a steel mill in Spain or Scandinavia.  Your £250k bus becomes a 275k bus very quickly. 

Also, it's absolutely nothing to do with demand for buses.  They have a full order book stretching out for two years.

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1153924101775515648?s=20

On
@BBCgmu
James Day from Coach & Bus Week tells
@BBCRichardM
about factors in UK bus market which are playing into Wrightbus woes.
1) Big splurge of investment by operators buying low floor buses to comply with the DDA is over
2) Local authority austerity in England means operators are getting less subsidy so cutting routes & buses
3) Ultra low emission vehicles still have high upfront costs so operators can't make big purchases there without government support.

Sounds like a demand issue to me.

See part in bold.

These factors may affect them when trying to gain the investment required, as a potential investor will be looking well ahead of the two year window but lack of orders is not the cause of the current issue.

What is the cause?
A lot on here are talking about mismanagement and that might be so to a certain extent, but this is a company that has grown significantly over the past number of years to employ 1400 people. I'd say they know a thing or two about running a business and a large scale one at that. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.
I hope the jobs are retained and the business gets all the support including financial that is needed to retain these jobs.

Mismanagement is a major one.  The processes in place were sustainable until the point that the company grew past a certain point.

Also, the rumours of an order to FirstGroup in Scotland which was taken on little more than a handshake then reneged upon (with many buses built and awaiting delivery) are, shall we say, not unfounded.  But I suppose that's also mismanagement...

Rumours...