3 children found dead in a house in Dublin

[AFM]

You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

The irony is the whole media campaign about mental awareness, where in reality it only appears to be for people who are in the minority as they are the only one ever suffer. 

And?

You made your quote up.

[AFM]

Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

I think I got the self-righteous on the head - i'll add delusions of grander about one's ability to post shite on an internet forum, so should we deem parents, sorry mothers as you seem to be running with that one, who abuse their children as having mental health issues which we shouldn't comment on as we don't understand or is that just reserved for murdering the children?

And of course we get the male victimhood shite again!

But yes, parents, of course.

I never said you couldn't comment on why this happened. I agreed with tbrick18 on his well-supported comment that until the facts come out, simply labeling her as evil or condemning her for not just killing herself is unfair and baseless.

You are free to call her whatever the f**k you want (and call other posters names if you think that will help), but all it is is baseless, emotional, reactionary nonsense in the absence of an investigation, inquest and possibly trial. Unless you have some inside information supporting your contention, in which case you should state so.

No one disputes that this was a terrible tragedy and an appalling, unjust end to three young lives and the ruination of their father and other relatives. Acknowledging the obvious potential role of serious mental illness and possibly diminished responsibility doesn't  change that. In fact, it probably makes it even worse in some ways if that turns out to be the case.

You really are on tiptop form whats the male victimhood shite your refer too, what have I called this woman? and as for pointing out your characteristics is that name calling - or my viewpoint, in which case

Are you not able to present a good defense of them?

[J70]

1.   There's a difference between defending the substance of your opinion on a topic and trying to distract with ad hominem attacks.
2.   I didn't say you called her anything. However, you appear to be unsettled by the idea of some posters advocating caution before throwing labels around.
3.   The male victimhood stuff refers to you seizing on my using the example of "mother" as opposed to "parent" and your complaints yesterday about people other than minorities (in the context of a conversation about women, gays and racial minorities, are we really not talking about straight, white males??) not being afforded the same consideration when it comes to mental illness or no one giving "a flying one if a white hetrosexual male in the workplace is offended"

[J70]

Some interesting posts on here.  I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness.  Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?

Is there evidence or suggestion that, in general, paedophiles are severely depressed or psychotic and don't realize that what they are doing is harmful to kids?

[nrico2006]

Some interesting posts on here.  I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness.  Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?

Is there evidence or suggestion that, in general, paedophiles are severely depressed or psychotic and don't realize that what they are doing is harmful to kids?

Is Paedophilia not a mental illness though that impacts on ones behaviour/choices etc?

[J70]

Some interesting posts on here.  I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness.  Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?

Is there evidence or suggestion that, in general, paedophiles are severely depressed or psychotic and don't realize that what they are doing is harmful to kids?

Is Paedophilia not a mental illness though that impacts on ones behaviour/choices etc?

So is OCD.

Doesn't mean you automatically abdicate all understanding of and responsibility for your actions.

[J70]

But yes, there is obviously a slippery slope issue that has to be and obviously is borne in mind.

[WT4E]

I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.

So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!

[Eamonnca1]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.

[Eamonnca1]

I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.

So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!

Or maybe the better understood this sort of thing is, the better the chances of preventing it in future.

[trileacman]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.

So Hitler wasn't evil?    Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?

[J70]

I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.

So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!

I don't understand. Are you saying we are safer just dismissing it as down to evil or malignant intent on the part of the mother or father and not acknowledging the mental illness side of things? That otherwise there is going to be a spate of child killings by parents or babysitters or whoever? Don't you think any surviving perpetrator is subject to intense investigation and evaluation? Is someone really going to murder their kids because they think they'll handily "get off" with a false diagnosis of mental illness? Are we not much better off attempting to find the real cause, regardless of the implications?

[trileacman]

I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.

So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!

Or maybe the better understood this sort of thing is, the better the chances of preventing it in future.

I'd argue that most Irish people would believe that we've never understood depression better than in 2019 but yet it's clinical incidence has probably never been higher.

[tbrick18]

Some interesting posts on here.  I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness.  Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?

It's impossible to give a difinitive answer, but in principal that sort of vile act could be a symptom of mental health issues.

How often do we hear that abusers were often abused themselves as children? Who's to say that abuse didnt cause a mental Illness or skew that persons view of what is appropriate. I feel uncomfortable saying that, but it is what I think.

I don't know enough about it, but the only thing I'm sure of is that these things are not always clear cut.
All circumstances need to be considered before hanging someone for their crimes.

[armaghniac]

'Extended family' situation?

Doesn't look like it.

But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral

No it's not. There has never been more emphasis than now on seeking help, contacting support services, reaching out and talking to people. Not every thing, big or small, that goes wrong in the country is the government's fault. People have to take more responsibility for their own decisions, well being, paths in life etc.

There's a lot of truth in that.

There were cases where there were specific failings of mental health services for rather vulnerable people. However in this case and the Hawe case the killer was working for the system and weren't at the cut off end of society. I find it totally inexplicable.