3 children found dead in a house in Dublin

[tbrick18]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

[J70]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

Well said

[AFM]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

I think it's unfair to take the lives off three children, do you think the facts will show they wanted to be murdered - again this is the fcuked up society we live in making excuses for wrongs, poor woman she wasn't right mentally, do you think anyone who goes out and commits murder or any kind is right mentally, should we show compassion and sympathy to them all, wasn't their fault demons and all that - off course the boards self-righteous wet blanket piles in behind this shite.

[five points]

Attempted suicide plus murder of the kids seems to be a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland

There was a case in Ramelton in Donegal in the early 1990s. Father drove off the quay with his 2 year old child.

[J70]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

I think it's unfair to take the lives off three children, do you think the facts will show they wanted to be murdered - again this is the fcuked up society we live in making excuses for wrongs, poor woman she wasn't right mentally, do you think anyone who goes out and commits murder or any kind is right mentally, should we show compassion and sympathy to them all, wasn't their fault demons and all that - off course the boards self-righteous wet blanket piles in behind this shite.

14 posts in and you've already started throwing around the personal insults.

Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

[AFM]

You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

The irony is the whole media campaign about mental awareness, where in reality it only appears to be for people who are in the minority as they are the only one ever suffer. 

[AFM]

Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

I think I got the self-righteous on the head - i'll add delusions of grander about one's ability to post shite on an internet forum, so should we deem parents, sorry mothers as you seem to be running with that one, who abuse their children as having mental health issues which we shouldn't comment on as we don't understand or is that just reserved for murdering the children?

[J70]

You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

The irony is the whole media campaign about mental awareness, where in reality it only appears to be for people who are in the minority as they are the only one ever suffer. 

And?

[tbrick18]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

I think it's unfair to take the lives off three children, do you think the facts will show they wanted to be murdered - again this is the fcuked up society we live in making excuses for wrongs, poor woman she wasn't right mentally, do you think anyone who goes out and commits murder or any kind is right mentally, should we show compassion and sympathy to them all, wasn't their fault demons and all that - off course the boards self-righteous wet blanket piles in behind this shite.

Read the sentence in my post immediately before the one you highlighted.
If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.
With regards to your comment around anyone going out and committing murder, I absolutely think that in some cases these people committing these crimes are mentally ill.
And we should absolutely show compassion in those cases....in exactly the same way we should show compassion to someone who had a heart attack behind the wheel of a car which results in an accident wiping out a family in the process (for example). Why should one health condition be given precedence over another? Why should the mentally ill person be held any more at fault than the person who had a heart attack?

[five points]

If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.

Mental health is never an excuse for killing anyone, least of all a child. If you compulsively ideate the sexual abuse of a child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can't act on that compulsion. For that reason, we don't tolerate children being left alone with a likely or actual pederast. Why do we tolerate children being left alone with someone who is ideating to kill them?

[J70]

Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.

I think I got the self-righteous on the head - i'll add delusions of grander about one's ability to post shite on an internet forum, so should we deem parents, sorry mothers as you seem to be running with that one, who abuse their children as having mental health issues which we shouldn't comment on as we don't understand or is that just reserved for murdering the children?

And of course we get the male victimhood shite again!

But yes, parents, of course.

I never said you couldn't comment on why this happened. I agreed with tbrick18 on his well-supported comment that until the facts come out, simply labeling her as evil or condemning her for not just killing herself is unfair and baseless.

You are free to call her whatever the f**k you want (and call other posters names if you think that will help), but all it is is baseless, emotional, reactionary nonsense in the absence of an investigation, inquest and possibly trial. Unless you have some inside information supporting your contention, in which case you should state so.

No one disputes that this was a terrible tragedy and an appalling, unjust end to three young lives and the ruination of their father and other relatives. Acknowledging the obvious potential role of serious mental illness and possibly diminished responsibility doesn't  change that. In fact, it probably makes it even worse in some ways if that turns out to be the case.

[J70]

If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.

Mental health is never an excuse for killing anyone, least of all a child. If you compulsively ideate the sexual abuse of a child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can't act on that compulsion. For that reason, we don't tolerate children being left alone with a likely or actual pederast. Why do we tolerate children being left alone with someone who is ideating to kill them?

One would hope that the investigation will look very closely at that exact issue.

But its similar to the debate around access to guns and mental illness in the US.

Who makes the call or how do you make the call on when someone moves across that line?

[tbrick18]

If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.

Mental health is never an excuse for killing anyone, least of all a child. If you compulsively ideate the sexual abuse of a child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can't act on that compulsion. For that reason, we don't tolerate children being left alone with a likely or actual pederast. Why do we tolerate children being left alone with someone who is ideating to kill them?

Excuse was probably the wrong word to use, it would have been better to say "contributing factor".
I do think you are slightly comparing apples to oranges with the sex abuse analogy, but to follow through with it,  we don't tolerate children being left alone with someone like that. But neither do we tolerate leaving them alone with someone who might cause them harm due to mental health. Social services have a remit to protect children where there are known about circumstances. The issue is that it can be too late before social services are involved or it can be that social services didn't do their job correctly (think Baby P).
In the case of mental health it can be impossible to ensure you don't act on your compulsion.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to point out that all situations are not the same and with the best will in the world, some people still perform these horrible acts.

[five points]

Of course all situations are not the same, but on the other hand, child safeguarding should extend much further than protection against sexual abuse.

It's a very difficult area.

[nrico2006]

Some interesting posts on here.  I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness.  Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?