Are NI Water Fit for Purpose?

[oakleafgael]

Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze 
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

As you well know the assumption is that water charges introduce some much needed investment to allow a rolling upgrade to the water infrastructure. Not that much of a stretch really?!

Do non-domestic customers not already have a metered water supply?

That is what I meant to say.  I was trying to point out that the metering system was already in place to calculate bills for water and sewage.  Extending the system to domestic customers would require meters for everyone which would take some time to implement.

And costly.

Somewhere between £150 and £200 million. Would be money well spent. Every domestic user should have an allowance and once they go over it they should be charged.

[bailestil]

Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze 
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Do realise how money and the economy work?
If not, you should think about a career in poltics in NI.

Oakleafgael a sensible post.
Fundamental problems with NIW exist which can only be rectified with political will.
Don't be holding your breath.
If this happened 5 years ago as the old water board. You would hear all our politicians blaming the DOE and te direct rule minister.
Now even though it's a GoCo they now feel free to finger point

[delboy]

Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze 
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Its quite simple, the capital used is spent on network improvements.

Im sick over the last week listening to human rights bullshit speak.

A big chunk of the capital raised and profits squeezed for hardup households will be used to pay dividends year after year to whoever gets awarded this golden goose, im sorry but i don't see privitisation as the panacea that some do.

[Minder]

I cant see water charges for the sole reason the politicians havent the balls to introduce them. Not within six months of any upcoming election anyway.

[delboy]

Two simple solutions:

1. Gradually introduce water charges via meters rather than rates, make people think about consumption and disposal.  All non-domestic customers have to pay for the water they consume and the sewage they dispose through the system.

2. Privatise NI Water and use the proceeds to fund other capital work.

Will this happen, not under the current marxist-socialist minister?

Any pray tell how would any of that have solved the problems at hand, once you starting charging for water do the pipes suddenly become immune to bursting in a freeze 
That has to be the most harebrained reason for privitasing a utility/fundamental human right  i've ever heard.

Do realise how money and the economy work?
If not, you should think about a career in poltics in NI.

Oakleafgael a sensible post.
Fundamental problems with NIW exist which can only be rectified with political will.
Don't be holding your breath.
If this happened 5 years ago as the old water board. You would hear all our politicians blaming the DOE and te direct rule minister.
Now even though it's a GoCo they now feel free to finger point

Yeah i have a modicum of understanding and thats why im not keen to see a key utility like water (in a closed market that exists in NI) handed over to the money men to generate profits for themselves on the basis of a few pipes bursting (mostly in private properties) during a highly unusal spell of weather, talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water (pardon the pun).
Do you think when profitablity becomes the primary concern that we would see more or less of the sort of staffing problems (overheads in the balance sheet) that we seen over the xams, my money is on more problems from understaffing not less.

[Tony Baloney]

There was a comment on the BBC news today that the water regulator stated to the Beeb that £1 for £1 expenditure in NI was 40% less efficient than in England, Scotland and Wales. Don't know what this is based on.

[oakleafgael]

Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

[bailestil]

Delboy. 

Would we have been better If BT had stayed as public?

Want water? Pay for it. Want more? Pay more.
This must happen no matter what the shinners spout between now and the election.

[delboy]

Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Well i would like to see it retained as a government owned company instead of being used by a few to generate enormous profits, i would want some clarity as to whether any of the rates at present goes to water (it still isn't 100 % clear) if any does go to water i'd like to see them stripped out of the normal rates so that we don't end up paying twice so to speak. We should then set an additional but seperate water rates levy, i wouldn't bother to meter as the costs associated with metering add greatly to the overall bill.

I would tell the EU to get stuffed and make the changes as we saw fit (cost/benefit analysis) and at our pace and not at the dictate of brussels. And if we needed to make any major investments i'd recommened we do what governments have been doing for years when it comes to infrastructure investments, borrow the money!

[oakleafgael]

Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Well i would like to see it retained as a government owned company instead of being used by a few to generate enormous profits, i would want some clarity as to whether any of the rates at present goes to water (it still isn't 100 % clear) if any does go to water i'd like to see them stripped out of the normal rates so that we don't end up paying twice so to speak. We should then set an additional but seperate water rates levy, i wouldn't bother to meter as the costs associated with metering add greatly to the overall bill.

I would tell the EU to get stuffed and make the changes as we saw fit (cost/benefit analysis) and at our pace and not at the dictate of brussels. And if we needed to make any major investments i'd recommened we do what governments have been doing for years when it comes to infrastructure investments, borrow the money!

Metering has to be introduced to make it a fair system. Otherwise you will have the current sitation continue with people leaving taps running and leaks unrepared as it costs them nothing.

None of the current rates we pay go to NIW, they havent for at least 20 years or so since the days when it stated water rates on your bill. NIW funding comes from the common pot.

[delboy]

Delboy,

If you dont want a private water supplier, whats your alternative and how would you fund it?

Well i would like to see it retained as a government owned company instead of being used by a few to generate enormous profits, i would want some clarity as to whether any of the rates at present goes to water (it still isn't 100 % clear) if any does go to water i'd like to see them stripped out of the normal rates so that we don't end up paying twice so to speak. We should then set an additional but seperate water rates levy, i wouldn't bother to meter as the costs associated with metering add greatly to the overall bill.

I would tell the EU to get stuffed and make the changes as we saw fit (cost/benefit analysis) and at our pace and not at the dictate of brussels. And if we needed to make any major investments i'd recommened we do what governments have been doing for years when it comes to infrastructure investments, borrow the money!

Metering has to be introduced to make it a fair system. Otherwise you will have the current sitation continue with people leaving taps running and leaks unrepared as it costs them nothing.

None of the current rates we pay go to NIW, they havent for at least 20 years or so since the days when it stated water rates on your bill. NIW funding comes from the common pot.

I could have swore the rates was made up of the district rates which is the council basically and the regional rates which amongst other things pays towards water and sewage.

Heres a quote from a local council website

"Regional Rate - what is it used for?

The Regional Rate is set by Central Government and local Councils HAVE NO control over this. It is the same for all 26 Councils and is used to contribute to the cost of providing a range of services such as: - Education, Housing, Social Services, Roads, Water and Sewerage."

It would at least seem that there might still be some confusion on the matter.

As for metering im not sure it passes the cost/benefit analysis it will only add to the overall burden off costs and for less than 10 % reduction in domestic usage (most of our water usage comes from commercial), much better spend to spend the money tackling the leaks in the system which represent more overall water.
Also metering strikes me as highly regressive, despite being a small family that would probably not suffer from it my natural sense of fair play would be irked by seeing a struggling large but low income family paying a large proportion of their income to pay for a fundamental commidity and human right (i don't think thats fair).

[ONeill]

Lemonade being used to flush toilets in Northern Ireland

Some residents in Northern Ireland have been resorting to cheap lemonade to keep their toilets flushed during the water crisis.

With supermarket shelves stripped of bottled water almost as soon as it arrives, some householders in east Belfast were turning to the next best thing to fill their toilet cisterns — lemonade from their local supermarket's value range.

At 18p for two litres, Tesco's Value lemonade proved almost as cheap as buying its Value bottled water at 17p for two litres — and much easier to get hold of.

Yesterday taxi driver Jim Stewart described collecting a man from Mersey Street who had travelled to the Connswater branch of Tesco to pick up bottled water, only to switch to the fizzy alternative when none was available.

"When he went in, there were others all buying the basic lemonade because there was no bottled water left.

"They were all using the lemonade to fill their toilet cistern," he said.

A Tesco spokesman last night said the supermarket chain has good supplies of bottled water and is keeping it replenished.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/lemonade-being-used-to-flush-toilets-in-northern-ireland-15042734.html?r=RSS

[johnneycool]

Just to answer a few questions and points raised over the thread to date. I am neither an apologist or defender for NIW but just giving answers from my own experience of dealing with them every day.

The call centre response and dealing with calls has been a complete shambles and is at the route of the problem. They where badly understaffed which led to widespread frustration from people trying to report leaks or no water supply.

NIW subcontractors have been working every day since the freeze and thaw started, including Christmas day and boxing day, they will be working new years eve and new years day as well. There are a limited number of contractors allowed to carry out this work due to the tender process by which the leakage and repair contract was tendered. Effectively there is one contractor who uses a network of smaller subcontractors to carry out the work. There is a large number of other water main contractors who are equally campable of carrying out the works and are on stand by to start tomorrow morning. They should have been out since boxing day given the scale of the problems. NIW themselves have only a small number of direct staff capable of carrying the works out.

The recent weather is the most severe on record for this time of year. It wasnt the low temperature but the prolonged low temperature the did the majoriy of the damage followed by the rapid thaw. As stupid as it sounds the speed of the thaw has caused most of the pipe fractures.

The vast majority of leaks are not on the distrubution network but on private property. This isnt helped by the time of year with more properties than normal unoccupied. The acts of self preservation by those who have left taps running is disgusting, the car washing and power washing is as bad. People are to used to getting water for nothing, this has to change. Not only should water charges be introduced but it should be by volume as opposed to a lazy charge for all.

When people get something for nothing they place no value on it.

The actions of the minister responsible are also shoddy. Over the last few years water charges have been delayed by all the political parties for electoral reasons. He has stated over the last 6 months that he wants to take NIW back into full public control. This will not work and it should be privatised as quickly as possible.

Any new connection carried out over the last 5 years has a meter fitted. It would pay for itself within a year to fit meters to the rest of the customers. There also needs to be an amnesty given for all unauthorised connections that have been made over the years after which any unregistered connection discovered results in prosecution and back charging.

NIW did call its office staff to come in to cover the phones but at only time in lieu, hardly an incentive for people to work over their holidays was it?

I'm not so sure privatization is the answer to NI waters woe's and using BT as an example who had a complete monopoly on infrastructure yet failed to invest in it for many's a year and in rural area's still fail to do so so as to wring every last penny out of their current kit before needing to upgrade. In terms of broadband speeds, NI is still pretty shit in large swathes of it. Most of South East Asia has better broadband rates than we do.
There is no guarantees that a privatized NI water would invest in infrastructure as the current model bandied about for water charges is based on current expenditure divided by the number of users, add in a little margin for the newly privatize company, picked up by the  customer then that'll remain.

What's the incentive for joe bloggs to use less water if they're not metered?

What's the incentive for a newly privatised NI water to fix the leaks in their system (even on a good day) when they're guaranteed their profit at the end of the year? Their main aim would be to please share holders, not customers.


Public bodies are inherently wasteful due to the life time civil servants have little or no business acumen as there's never been a requirement for them to do so, big ship the navy and all that. The trick would be to incentivise the management with properly defined key performance indicators taking into account efficiency levels of service with the end customer being a major part of that. Let me know if someone in a public position actually manages that.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Privatising a monopolised (and fundamental) utility is asking for trouble, as is leaving it totally within the realm of the public sector domain.

Perhaps something like a Public Private Partnership (PPP) might be the best way forward, despite the awful hames of those the southern 'government' has made over the last two decades where they were basically licences to print money. That would mean that there would be private sector enterprise and expertise for a finite financial return (over 30 years or such), but where the utility would remain in public ownership.

[johnneycool]

]

PPP was a disaster here where it was used for schools and we will pay for it for the next 25 years.

In what way?

I know a girl who taught in a PPP school and she said she'd never seen so many vending machines in a school in her life.