Not born that way

[Asal Mor]

Without reading back through the thread is it now considered bigoted or ignorant to not necessarily believe that gay people were born gay, even if you don't discriminate and are totally indifferent to the sexuality of others?

Does the nature v nurture issue really matter?

And unless you are inclined to see homosexuality as a terrible sin/perversion, would it even matter if people chose to be gay (there's no evidence for this, but I'm just asking why it would matter anyway?)

I don't think it matters at all.

[Eamonnca1]

For the record people with learning disabilities can have children - but don't let facts get in the way of your bullshit.

So can same-sex couples.

Not by themselves

And...Theres a big difference

fixed it for you Eamon sweetie

The difference being... what exactly?

[seafoid]

Homosexuality was seen as a sin in Christian culture but other cultures were far more tolerant.
You could say that Christianity is not natural.

[Asal Mor]

Homosexuality was seen as a sin in Christian culture but other cultures were far more tolerant.
You could say that Christianity is not natural.

I'd agree.

[seafoid]

Trans people have been recognised in Indian culture for centuries..There will always be people who don't fit into the hetero model.  So many lives were destroyed because of Christian prejudice. Christianity is basically patriarchy. And it has a messed up attitude to sex.

[No wides]

I'm thinking it's about an 85% chance this guy is a sick WUP.

I think he's probably gay. Stew and Iceman too. Secret, repressed gays the lot of them.

Oh dear homosexual people being mocked by individuals like you on a discussion board, you really aren't as liberal as you make out, if it is so normal why make a statement which for all intentional purposes makes out that being gay is some how wrong.  I guess the true colours always come out. 

[J70]

I'm thinking it's about an 85% chance this guy is a sick WUP.

I think he's probably gay. Stew and Iceman too. Secret, repressed gays the lot of them.

Oh dear homosexual people being mocked by individuals like you on a discussion board, you really aren't as liberal as you make out, if it is so normal why make a statement which for all intentional purposes makes out that being gay is some how wrong.  I guess the true colours always come out.

He's very clearly mocking YOU, not gay people.

Unless you ARE one the homosexual people you say he's mocking.

In which case he's not mocking you for being gay, but for being a repressed gay who is denying reality and overcompensating by adopting a virulently anti-gay internet persona.

[No wides]

I'm thinking it's about an 85% chance this guy is a sick WUP.

I think he's probably gay. Stew and Iceman too. Secret, repressed gays the lot of them.

Oh dear homosexual people being mocked by individuals like you on a discussion board, you really aren't as liberal as you make out, if it is so normal why make a statement which for all intentional purposes makes out that being gay is some how wrong.  I guess the true colours always come out.

He's very clearly mocking YOU, not gay people.

Unless you ARE one the homosexual people you say he's mocking.

In which case he's not mocking you for being gay, but for being a repressed gay who is denying reality and overcompensating by adopting a virulently anti-gay internet persona.

If I was gay why would that be an issue - you keep saying it is normal, you and gallsman are hypocrites - I notice all the posts you ignore - speaks volumes, hows the transgender facts of life book coming along?

[J70]

I'm thinking it's about an 85% chance this guy is a sick WUP.

I think he's probably gay. Stew and Iceman too. Secret, repressed gays the lot of them.

Oh dear homosexual people being mocked by individuals like you on a discussion board, you really aren't as liberal as you make out, if it is so normal why make a statement which for all intentional purposes makes out that being gay is some how wrong.  I guess the true colours always come out.

He's very clearly mocking YOU, not gay people.

Unless you ARE one the homosexual people you say he's mocking.

In which case he's not mocking you for being gay, but for being a repressed gay who is denying reality and overcompensating by adopting a virulently anti-gay internet persona.

If I was gay why would that be an issue - you keep saying it is normal, you and gallsman are hypocrites - I notice all the posts you ignore - speaks volumes, hows the transgender facts of life book coming along?

Why would WHAT be an issue?

You denying reality and overcompensating?

Or something else?

How am I a hypocrite?

And what posts have I ignored?

[The Iceman]

https://vimeo.com/101135437

It's an hour long.  I'm asking some of you interesting in really looking at both sides to watch. It's interviews of many homosexual (both male and female) talking about their experiences before, during and after they lived out their lives in same sex relationships.

Ok, I'm watching some of it. I also read a summary of it to get the jist:http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/bounty-everlasting-hills-leaving-gay-life-behind

Is it really a surprise that some gay people are and have been conflicted about their homosexuality given the marginalization and condemnation of homosexuality by society in general and religious communities in particular? Especially for those who were brought up religiously? Christ, of all churches, the Catholic one lays on the guilt fairly thick. Even a casual w**k is forbidden!

Is there an equivalent documentary about people who led straight lives but were secretly gay and the personal conflict and torture THEY went through?

I think theres a few very fair comments in the documentary.  The male model had it all  - riches, fame, success and 1000s of men in his bed.  It wasn't just because of the 60s or the 70s it was because of something else.  I've heard from girls who have gay friends that they'll meet random men leaving their friend's house and ask who was that and the response will be #13 this month.  The promiscuity is out of control.  Why? Is it just because men are hornier? Come on lads? The man in the video said he was always trying to complete something, find something, fill something (pardon the pun).  All 3 of the people interviewed talk very openly and brokenly about their experiences. I thought it provided some real insight.
there is also a comment I'll draw your attention to. When the woman talks about being at a big lesbian free love party in the woods in San Fran somewhere and identical twins were 'loving on each other' and she was shocked and asked her partner at the time "isn't that wrong"? to which her partner replied " if we judge them then others can judge us"....
This is one of my concerns  that we are headed towards an anything goes type society...because who are we to deny anyone's happiness...

Thanks J70 for trying to watch some of it.  I would encourage you to read the book "making gay ok".

[J70]

But Iceman, those concerns can also be thrown at plenty of straight people. Lots of straight men sleep around excessively, even compulsively, and are afraid to commit to a single woman. I've known and know a few women with the same issue. And I know gay men who are married and have been faithful to their husbands for years. Like I said in an earlier post, it may well be the case that some gay men need to cop themselves on and not take advantage of the male libido squared issue. And I'm sure, as with straight people, its not just about getting laid and they're, as you say, filling a gap. Perhaps now that society is in fact allowing them to come out of the shadows and live, openly and respectfully, as ordinary couples and families, those gaps will be filled and the destructive behaviour will decrease.

I've no argument with you on the twins thing, but that's hardly an argument against homosexuality. Permissiveness gone crazy perhaps, as you suggest. But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because society grows more accepting of homosexuality and transgenderism and the rest, doesn't mean there is no end point to what should be tolerated or that siblings all over the place are going to start fighting through their natural, sexual repulsion towards each other.

[The Iceman]

But Iceman, those concerns can also be thrown at plenty of straight people. Lots of straight men sleep around excessively, even compulsively, and are afraid to commit to a single woman. I've known and know a few women with the same issue. And I know gay men who are married and have been faithful to their husbands for years. Like I said in an earlier post, it may well be the case that some gay men need to cop themselves on and not take advantage of the male libido squared issue. And I'm sure, as with straight people, its not just about getting laid and they're, as you say, filling a gap. Perhaps now that society is in fact allowing them to come out of the shadows and live, openly and respectfully, as ordinary couples and families, those gaps will be filled and the destructive behaviour will decrease.

I've no argument with you on the twins thing, but that's hardly an argument against homosexuality. Permissiveness gone crazy perhaps, as you suggest. But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because society grows more accepting of homosexuality and transgenderism and the rest, doesn't mean there is no end point to what should be tolerated or that siblings all over the place are going to start fighting through their natural, sexual repulsion towards each other.

But don't you think that the gay men faithful to their partners are the exception? And the straight man who has 100s of lovers is the exception? There are lots of stats out there on the number of sexual partners a normal/typical gay man has versus a straight man. 
When or who will draw a line on whats accepted? transgenderism, what's next? I've seen mothers and son's arguing to be married - there are court cases here on it, siblings...I just don't know where it is all going but if it doesn't slow down or stop I do know it isn't a place I want to raise kids...

[muppet]

But Iceman, those concerns can also be thrown at plenty of straight people. Lots of straight men sleep around excessively, even compulsively, and are afraid to commit to a single woman. I've known and know a few women with the same issue. And I know gay men who are married and have been faithful to their husbands for years. Like I said in an earlier post, it may well be the case that some gay men need to cop themselves on and not take advantage of the male libido squared issue. And I'm sure, as with straight people, its not just about getting laid and they're, as you say, filling a gap. Perhaps now that society is in fact allowing them to come out of the shadows and live, openly and respectfully, as ordinary couples and families, those gaps will be filled and the destructive behaviour will decrease.

I've no argument with you on the twins thing, but that's hardly an argument against homosexuality. Permissiveness gone crazy perhaps, as you suggest. But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because society grows more accepting of homosexuality and transgenderism and the rest, doesn't mean there is no end point to what should be tolerated or that siblings all over the place are going to start fighting through their natural, sexual repulsion towards each other.

But don't you think that the gay men faithful to their partners are the exception? And the straight man who has 100s of lovers is the exception? There are lots of stats out there on the number of sexual partners a normal/typical gay man has versus a straight man. 
When or who will draw a line on whats accepted? transgenderism, what's next? I've seen mothers and son's arguing to be married - there are court cases here on it, siblings...I just don't know where it is all going but if it doesn't slow down or stop I do know it isn't a place I want to raise kids...

Iceman, are you serious?

[J70]

But Iceman, those concerns can also be thrown at plenty of straight people. Lots of straight men sleep around excessively, even compulsively, and are afraid to commit to a single woman. I've known and know a few women with the same issue. And I know gay men who are married and have been faithful to their husbands for years. Like I said in an earlier post, it may well be the case that some gay men need to cop themselves on and not take advantage of the male libido squared issue. And I'm sure, as with straight people, its not just about getting laid and they're, as you say, filling a gap. Perhaps now that society is in fact allowing them to come out of the shadows and live, openly and respectfully, as ordinary couples and families, those gaps will be filled and the destructive behaviour will decrease.

I've no argument with you on the twins thing, but that's hardly an argument against homosexuality. Permissiveness gone crazy perhaps, as you suggest. But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because society grows more accepting of homosexuality and transgenderism and the rest, doesn't mean there is no end point to what should be tolerated or that siblings all over the place are going to start fighting through their natural, sexual repulsion towards each other.

But don't you think that the gay men faithful to their partners are the exception? And the straight man who has 100s of lovers is the exception? There are lots of stats out there on the number of sexual partners a normal/typical gay man has versus a straight man. 

You may be right (I don't know - what ARE the stats?), but surely, if so, a lot of this is down to opportunity and male sexual drive and the historic prohibition on living as a homosexual couple?

But, assuming, for the sake of argument, that gay men are much more inclined towards promiscuity, in desire as well as opportunity, what are the implications of that?

When or who will draw a line on whats accepted? transgenderism, what's next? I've seen mothers and son's arguing to be married - there are court cases here on it, siblings...I just don't know where it is all going but if it doesn't slow down or stop I do know it isn't a place I want to raise kids...

As with anything, culture evolves. Look at the historic inbreeding in the European royal families. Speaking of evolving, look at Charles Darwin - he married his first cousin. That's unheard of now, 150-odd years later.

I guess it comes down to what extent society feels they should regulate individual behaviour. If two sisters want to chew the faces off each other in the woods, is that anyone's business except their own and the morning-after awkwardness/embarrassment they might feel? If a brother and sister want to have sex, then surely society's concerns about inbreeding in a resultant baby come into play?

It is a difficult question.

[gallsman]

But don't you think that the gay men faithful to their partners are the exception?

Iceman, are you serious?
[/quote]

I simply can't wait to read the evidence on this.