I hate rule changes. So I'm going to keep them to a minimum in my proposal. It's mostly a change in perception.
GENESIS
- What if every single county match mattered, regardless of which competition it is in?
- What if players and managers gained a genuine reward for league form; a reward that allows them to gradually improve year-on-year?
- What if the majority of players were returned to their clubs by the start of July, and all of them by the end of August?
- What if county boards could genuinely enjoy the savings of this move, by effectively "parking" senior county costs for 4-5 months every single year
- What if all this could be done by retaining provincial Championships, thereby giving each team three chances of silverware each season, and also giving them something of a shot in the arm?
- And what if, in doing this, the actual All Ireland Championship was made genuinely competitive in every single match.
At first glance this proposal appears complex. But once you've jumped the second step below and understood why it's in place, then everything should slot into place (or else I'm gone mad).
THE FIRST STEPThere would only be 16 places in the All Ireland Championship. Nobody is granted a place. Everybody earns a place, based on their form of that calendar year i.e. if you play well in the league and in your provincial championship, you will be guaranteed a place in the big show.
THE SECOND STEPForm can be difficult to gauge. Obviously a team that wins 6/7 games in Division 4 is in good form. But does this make them more worthy of a Championship place than a team that wins 3/7 games in Division 1? Probably not.
So a multiplier is used. A smarter, more patient person than me might use historical data to define the exact multipliers. But for now, let's just work with my "back of a feg packet" figures:
- A D4 league point is worth 1 Championship Entry Point.
- A D3 league point is worth 1.5 Championship Entry Points.
- A D2 league point is worth 2.
- A D1 league point is worth 2.5.
Then form in Provincial Championships is rewarded with increasing tallies too:
- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.
After the Provincial Finals are complete, the teams with the highest 16 Championship Entry Points scores gathered over the season would be placed in the AI Championship draw.
Winning your provincial championship bags you 12 points, while clean sweeping your league can gain you anything from 14 points to 35 points. Hence, a team that has a sparkling Provincial Championship will probably still make the AI Championship cut. Alternatively a team that has a great league but is put to bed early in the Provincials, will also almost always make the AI Championship cut. A team that does well in both will always make it.
THIS IS MADWell at first glance it is. But let's look at what we want from football. We want competitive football (which a league system delivers), we want local rivalries (provincial competition) and we want top class games at Croker (which would see the best 16 teams). The current system actually has a lot of merits, but only delivers this in fits and starts, as too many games are uncompetitive. This proposal brings it all together: by making every game worth winning.
THE THIRD STEPIs rescheduling and timings.
The AI Championship is straight knockout, almost all at Croke Park, and the schedule would be:
- Last 16: 1st weekend in July
- QFs: 3rd weekend in July
- SFs: 1st weekend in August
- Final: 3rd weekend in August.
To achieve this, the league and the Provincials must be completed by 3rd week in June.
Remember that this system means a maximum of 11 games for any team before the AI stages. So 15 weeks are allocated, which means the leagues start in first week of March. As a proposal:
- Leagues would go for 3 weeks from 1st week of March.
- Then a 1 week break
- Then Provincials round 1 (1st week of April)
- Then 2 rounds of the league
- Then a 1 week break
- The Provincial QFs (1st week of May)
- Then 2 rounds of the league
- Then a 1 week break
- Then Provincial semis (1st week of June)
- Then Provincial finals (3rd week of June)
This will mean that for come counties, their season is effectively over in the 3rd week of May.
But let's look at this realistically: the players are still getting the same amount of county football (they'll have at least 8 competitive games a season), except it's compressed into half the calendar year, instead of what they currently endure i.e. month long breaks between games in the back door.
PECULIARS
- All Championship games are played to a finish.
- Abandoned/postponed league games must be rescheduled for its free weekends.
- There would never ever again be league play-offs. It's a proper league system: in each division the top 2 go up, the bottom 2 go down. The team at the top of D1 win the league outright, and some financial reward for doing so.
- In event of teams finishing the season on the same Championship Entry points, they would be ordered by their overall league position (e.g. top in D1 is 1st, bottom in D4 is 32nd).
- Yes this could be very cruel on lower teams from time-to-time. But ultimately we want a) the AI to be ultra-competitive, and hgher ranked teams are more likely to deliver on this, and b) we want leagues to genuinely matter.
- A Wimbledon style seeding system should be put in place so that the highest ranked team plays the lowest ranked team in the last 16, second highest ranked plays second lowest ranked, etc. If everyone plays to form, the best 4 teams before the AI stages would meet in the AI Semis.
- This system should further help reduce dead rubbers in the league, as a last match win could be the difference between getting Kerry and getting Down in the last 16.
- Kikenny have no part in this system other than playing in the LSFC if they want. New York would continue to play in the CSFC. But let's be honest, the last 16 of the AI Championship isn't something to concern ourselves with those counties.
- I've judicially decided that preliminary Provincial games wouldn't gain Championship Entry points; this is to redress the logical imbalance in Provincial Championship sizes.
- Last but not least, we should avoid any claims to have a Junior AI with the bottom 16. Let's not reward mediocrity: If teams want to play in July, they need to earn it.
Anyway, yep there's a mathematical equation to be solved here, and then gotten used to. But I think this is genuinely the first restructuring proposal I've read that:
- Maintains and even strengthens the existing competitions.
- Gives county players roughly the same number of games per season (between 8 and 15) as currently they enjoy: except in a much more compressed window.
- Saves county boards a pile of money by condensing the senior football season.
- Solves the club v county problem completely for most counties in Ireland. Obviously players the last 4 counties wouldn't be available for clubs until September, but the majority of county players would be 100% committed to their club season by the end of June.
- Most importantly, it's a completely organic system. There are no hidden nuances: by progressing in league football, it strengthens your chances of playing championship football - but at the same time a bad season doesn't ruin these chance.
FOR REFERENCEIf this system had have been in place in 2014, the following would panned out:
AI Championsip Qualifiers1 Dublin (D1) 34.5
2 Mayo (D1) 34.5
3 Donegal (D2) 34
4 Cork (D1) 31.5
5 Monaghan (D2) 28
6 Kerry (D1) 25
7 Meath (D2) 24
8 Derry (D1) 22.5
9 Cavan (D3) 21
10 Tyrone (D1) 20
11 Roscommon (D3) 20
12 Galway (D2) 16
13 Down (D2) 14
14 Clare (D4) 13
15 Tipperary (D4) 13
16 Kildare (D1) 12
Season Over in June17 Laois (D2) 12
18 Armagh (D2) 12
19 Wexford (D3) 11
20 Fermanagh (D3) 10.5
21 Wicklow (D4) 10
22 Sligo (D3) 9
23 Limerick (D3) 9
24 Leitrim (D4) 9
25 Longford (D3) 6
26 Antrim (D4) 6
27 Waterford (D4) 5
28 Louth (D2) 4
29 London (D4) 3
30 Carlow (D4) 3
31 Offaly (D3) 1.5
32 Westmeath (D1) 0
It's fair to say that this sorts the wheat from the chafe. Only perhaps Armagh of the "bottom 16" might have been primed to make a dent in the AI Championship.
But the real danger of using historical data is that the same circumstances don't apply. Take Armagh and Laois who only just missed out on Championship berths; one more draw in the league would have seen them qualify. I'm guessing they would have found a way to get that draw/win if there was this much at stake.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 08:31:22 AM
I hate rule changes. So I'm going to keep them to a minimum in my proposal. It's mostly a change in perception.
GENESIS
- What if every single county match mattered, regardless of which competition it is in?
- What if players and managers gained a genuine reward for league form; a reward that allows them to gradually improve year-on-year?[/li]
- What if the majority of players were returned to their clubs by the start of July, and all of them by the end of August?
- What if county boards could genuinely enjoy the savings of this move, by effectively "parking" senior county costs for 4-5 months every single year
- What if all this could be done by retaining provincial Championships, thereby giving each team three chances of silverware each season, and also giving them something of a shot in the arm?
- And what if, in doing this, the actual All Ireland Championship was made genuinely competitive in every single match.[/li]
At first glance this proposal appears complex. But once you've jumped the second step below and understood why it's in place, then everything should slot into place (or else I'm gone mad).
THE FIRST STEP
There would only be 16 places in the All Ireland Championship. Nobody is granted a place. Everybody earns a place, based on their form of that calendar year i.e. if you play well in the league and in your provincial championship, you will be guaranteed a place in the big show.
THE SECOND STEP
Form can be difficult to gauge. Obviously a team that wins 6/7 games in Division 4 is in good form. But does this make them more worthy of a Championship place than a team that wins 3/7 games in Division 1? Probably not.
So a multiplier is used. A smarter, more patient person than me might use historical data to define the exact multipliers. But for now, let's just work with my "back of a feg packet" figures:
- A D4 win is worth 1 Championship Entry Point (a draw is worth 0.5).
- A D3 win is worth 1.5 Championship Entry Points (a draw is worth 0.75, etc)
- A D2 win is worth 2.
- A D1 win is worth 2.5.
Then form in Provincial Championships is rewarded with increasing tallies too:
- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.
After the Provincial Finals are complete, the teams with the highest 16 Championship Entry Points scores gathered over the season would be placed in the AI Championship draw.
Winning your provincial championship bags you 12 points, while clean sweeping your league can gain you anything from 14 points to 35 points. Hence, a team that has a sparkling Provincial Championship will probably still make the AI Championship cut. Alternatively a team that has a great league but is put to bed early in the Provincials, will also almost always make the AI Championship cut. A team that does well in both will always make it.
THIS IS MAD
Well at first glance it is. But let's look at what we want from football. We want competitive football (which a league system delivers), we want local rivalries (provincial competition) and we want top class games at Croker (which would see the best 16 teams). The current system actually has a lot of merits, but only delivers this in fits and starts, as too many games are uncompetitive. This proposal brings it all together: by making every game worth winning.
THE THIRD STEP
Is rescheduling and timings.
The AI Championship is straight knockout, almost all at Croke Park, and the schedule would be:
- Last 16: 1st weekend in July
- QFs: 3rd weekend in July
- SFs: 1st weekend in August
- Final: 3rd weekend in August.
To achieve this, the league and the Provincials must be completed by 3rd week in June.
Remember that this system means a maximum of 11 games for any team before the AI stages. So 15 weeks are allocated, which means the leagues start in first week of March. As a proposal:
- Leagues would go for 3 weeks from 1st week of March.
- Then a 1 week break
- Then Provincials round 1 (1st week of April)
- Then 2 rounds of the league
- Then a 1 week break
- The Provincial QFs (1st week of May)
- Then 2 rounds of the league
- Then a 1 week break
- Then Provincial semis (1st week of June)
- Then Provincial finals (3rd week of June)
This will mean that for come counties, their season is effectively over in the 3rd week of May.
But let's look at this realistically: the players are still getting the same amount of county football (they'll have at least 8 competitive games a season), except it's compressed into half the calendar year, instead of what they currently endure i.e. month long breaks between games in the back door.
PECULIARS
- All Championship games are played to a finish.
- Abandoned/postponed league games must be rescheduled for its free weekends.
- There would never ever again be league play-offs. It's a proper league system: in each division the top 2 go up, the bottom 2 go down. The team at the top of D1 win the league outright, and some financial reward for doing so.
- In event of teams finishing the season on the same Championship Entry points, they would be ordered by their overall league position (e.g. top in D1 is 1st, bottom in D4 is 32nd).
- Yes this could be very cruel on lower teams from time-to-time. But ultimately we want a) the AI to be ultra-competitive, and hgher ranked teams are more likely to deliver on this, and b) we want leagues to genuinely matter.
- A Wimbledon style seeding system should be put in place so that the highest ranked team plays the lowest ranked team in the last 16, second highest ranked plays second lowest ranked, etc. If everyone plays to form, the best 4 teams before the AI stages would meet in the AI Semis.
- This system should further help reduce dead rubbers in the league, as a last match win could be the difference between getting Kerry and getting Down in the last 16.
- Kikenny have no part in this system other than playing in the LSFC if they want. New York would continue to play in the CSFC. But let's be honest, the last 16 of the AI Championship isn't something to concern ourselves with those counties.
- I've judicially decided that preliminary Provincial games wouldn't gain Championship Entry points; this is to redress the logical imbalance in Provincial Championship sizes.
- Last but not least, we should avoid any claims to have a Junior AI with the bottom 16. Let's not reward mediocrity: If teams want to play in July, they need to earn it.
Anyway, yep there's a mathematical equation to be solved here, and then gotten used to. But I think this is genuinely the first restructuring proposal I've read that:
- Maintains and even strengthens the existing competitions.
- Gives county players roughly the same number of games per season (between 8 and 15) as currently they enjoy: except in a much more compressed window.
- Saves county boards a pile of money by condensing the senior football season.
- Solves the club v county problem completely for most counties in Ireland. Obviously players the last 4 counties wouldn't be available for clubs until September, but the majority of county players would be 100% committed to their club season by the end of June.
- Most importantly, it's a completely organic system. There are no hidden nuances: by progressing in league football, it strengthens your chances of playing championship football - but at the same time a bad season doesn't ruin these chance.
FOR REFERENCE
If this system had have been in place in 2014, the following would panned out:
AI Championsip Qualifiers
1 Dublin (D1) 34.5
2 Mayo (D1) 34.5
3 Donegal (D2) 34
4 Cork (D1) 31.5
5 Monaghan (D2) 28
6 Kerry (D1) 25
7 Meath (D2) 24
8 Derry (D1) 22.5
9 Cavan (D3) 21
10 Tyrone (D1) 20
11 Roscommon (D3) 20
12 Galway (D2) 16
13 Down (D2) 14
14 Clare (D4) 13
15 Tipperary (D4) 13
16 Kildare (D1) 12
Season Over in June
17 Laois (D2) 12
18 Armagh (D2) 12
19 Wexford (D3) 11
20 Fermanagh (D3) 10.5
21 Wicklow (D4) 10
22 Sligo (D3) 9
23 Limerick (D3) 9
24 Leitrim (D4) 9
25 Longford (D3) 6
26 Antrim (D4) 6
27 Waterford (D4) 5
28 Louth (D2) 4
29 London (D4) 3
30 Carlow (D4) 3
31 Offaly (D3) 1.5
32 Westmeath (D1) 0
It's fair to say that this sorts the wheat from the chafe. Only perhaps Armagh of the "bottom 16" might have been primed to make a dent in the AI Championship.
But the real danger of using historical data is that the same circumstances don't apply. Take Armagh and Laois who only just missed out on Championship berths; one more draw in the league would have seen them qualify. I'm guessing they would have found a way to get that draw/win if there was this much at stake.
You should have stopped here!! The premise that everybody can be as good as everyone else is horseshit, how do you measure it?? Everyone wins a senior All Ireland next year!!!
It s F***** competition lads. The best teams will beat the worst teams. Stop f****** whinging!!
Keyser, that's the point of this system.
By reducing AI entry to 16 teams, based purely on form, it becomes a more competitive competition.
It means weaker teams play most of their football against weaker teams, and the best of the weakers teams get a shot at the bigger teams.
Try reading it again!
I like it wobbler. Would tweak a couple of things but it's eminently workable within the current calendar.
Why the need for a new thread. Could it not have went into the other existing one were people are putting forward proposals.
Certainly not the worst proposal I have read.
I agree with the need for the all ireland to be reduced to a top 16 knockout competitiona nd to be tied to league performance in some way. Im not sure the points system is teh way to do it, but it wortha bit of thought at least.
You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, Wobbler and that's rare enough in itself. There's only one problem with it, as far as I'm concerned - I didn't think of it. I think it's by far the best and most logical proposal I've seen yet for how the inter-county season should be run. This despite the collective ruminations of various committees, "experts" and pundits for years.
As you say, it answers nearly all objections to the present system(s) and aspirations for how things could be better. The only personal quibble I would have with it is the shortness of the inter-county season under this system. I like the fact that the championship takes the whole summer, particularly. But that compromise pays off hugely for the club game and I'm all for that, too and it's hard to accommodate both aspirations.
No doubt people will find problems with the proposal, but for now I can't see them.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 05, 2015, 11:34:29 AM
Certainly not the worst proposal I have read.
I agree with the need for the all ireland to be reduced to a top 16 knockout competitiona nd to be tied to league performance in some way. Im not sure the points system is teh way to do it, but it wortha bit of thought at least.
High praise indeed.
I like most of apart from your rating/points system.
Take the Tyrone/Donegal Championship match this year. No points for either from this game, even though both were in division 1. A loss for either means mean they are out of the championship (2014 AI finalists possible not entered in 2015 AI due to a loss in a preliminary round even though they are one of top 16 teams). Derry would same if they lost this weekend. While Dublin get championship points for beating Longford.
Not all Provincial QF are off the same standard but yet they get the same rating points.
I think this rating system is better. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_football_rankings
I thought that was going to hurt my brain Wobbs when I first looked at it.....but it is quite straightforward. Have you patented it??
I think Wobbler has the right idea and I think that Stall the Bailer's point is a good one.
One obvious adjustment is to weigh the provincial points by the calibre of the team you beat, so beating a Div 4 team would be different from beating a Div 1 team. This wouldn't save Tyrone, eliminated in the preliminary round, but it would mean less points for beating Clare or Waterford. For this to work you would need to seed the provincials, I imagine.
QuoteWhy the need for a new thread. Could it not have went into the other existing one were people are putting forward proposals
Great proposal and deserves a new thread.
A few issues could be that due to the mathematical outcomes the provincial finals may have to be run on same days and times? Or is it likely that the top 16 would be already sorted by then. Also Connacht and Munster have the advantage of easier routes to prov semi finals.
Pray tell why it deserves a new thread.
We already have a thread that deals with this topic - 'Alternative GAA Championship Structure'.
So why the need for another thread - 'Alternative GAA Season Structure: The McNamee System'.
You think it a good idea that every joe blogs that has a proposal for a new structure to open up a new thread? Really?
This is the alternative, alternative GAA season structure thread.
Don't get me wrong there's a lot of tweaking that an actuary might be able to sort.
- - -
But personally I'd be against weighting Championship football by opponents. Championship football is the luck of the draw, and same as for the Superbowl or the FA Cup, some years you might have to work harder to achieve the same result... your target doesn't change because of who you are playing - it's still taking the steps needed to win silverware. Hence I'd prefer that it's the steps that are rewarded, and not what was required at each step.
I'd suggest that for the system to work, everyone would have to get on board with this concept. It's not about the opponent, it's about the achievement. Winning a provincial preliminary round is not an achievement that anyone will ever remember, regardless of the opponents.
- - -
There will always be anomalies in awarding points at Provincial level, but because the individual Championships are not egalitarian in format, then there is no plausible way to evaluate them in an egalitarian way. Hence some give and take has to be allowed, one which neither overly punishes or rewards any particular county.
We all know it's harder to win Ulster than anywhere else, but let's be honest - this should then be reflected in the points accumulated during league football. Plus the flip side of Ulster being difficult to win is that winning any quarter-final would put 2 points in the Championship bag. Every other year, some counties in Connacht and Munster won't have the opportunity to win those 2 points; they'd be straight into the semis.
- - -
Hardy, i'd agree with you about short summers being a problem. But personally I'd love to see the counter-effect of this proposal being that club county championships are completed by end of September, provincial clubs finished by middle of October, and All-Ireland clubs done and dusted by middle of November. We'd have an absolute barrage of top class club football to consume in September and October, and it might even be pleasant to watch outdoors.
All done for mid November, We'd then all be able winter well together.
- - -
No patent 5 Sams. But I know it's a good idea, and I'm kind of looking forward to seeing which pundits change 2 elements and rebadge it as their own thinking :)
- - -
Brick, I'm hardly Tony Fearon-esque thread opening here. I've been involved in umpteen restructuring threads on this board over the past decade, and without fail they end up with crossed wires as proposals morph, evolve and are re-discussed. Call me a vain f**ker, but I think this idea deserves to be discussed in isolation.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 08:31:22 AM
Let's not reward mediocrity: If teams want to play in July, they need to earn it.[/li][/list]
17 Laois (D2) 12
18 Armagh (D2) 12
19 Wexford (D3) 11
20 Fermanagh (D3) 10.5
21 Wicklow (D4) 10
22 Sligo (D3) 9
23 Limerick (D3) 9
24 Leitrim (D4) 9
25 Longford (D3) 6
26 Antrim (D4) 6
27 Waterford (D4) 5
28 Louth (D2) 4
29 London (D4) 3
30 Carlow (D4) 3
31 Offaly (D3) 1.5
32 Westmeath (D1) 0
I think this is very disrespectful to the teams listed. Very few of these counties have populations in excess of 100k or more than 40 clubs like most of the top 16. They may actually be overachieving in certain cases.
Take small counties like Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim, they have only win 3 provincial titles between them. Failure of them not making the top 16 is not a sign of mediocrity.
Counties like Dublin, Cork and Mayo who are almost certain of making the last 12 every year and with their resources, could be accused of mediocrity due to them not winning more All Irelands than currently do.
This might just be me but those totals seem very high for 2014. I can't see where you calculated the points for Mayo as an example I'm familiar with:
Last year we had 4 wins , 1 draw and 2 defeats in the league giving by your method, 11.25 points. Add 12 for winning Connacht and you have 23.25.
Quote from: Chimley on June 05, 2015, 01:21:30 PM
This might just be me but those totals seem very high for 2014. I can't see where you calculated the points for Mayo as an example I'm familiar with:
Last year we had 4 wins , 1 draw and 2 defeats in the league giving by your method, 11.25 points. Add 12 for winning Connacht and you have 23.25.
I think I've figured it out. You doubled the points for each league win but did not change it in your initial table.
Er Stall the Baler, I think wobbler is against awarding mediocrity. Personally, I think it is a great system to be honest. Yes people will find flaws in everything, and my only bugbear is that the county season would be condensed too much. However, if the GAA are going to go ahead with finishing the club championships in one calendar year, then it's fine by me. Yes, there might be some counties who would be left out, but that will always be the way with the world. You may say that's easy coming from a Mayoman as we have it handy in Connacht, but I remember (as do others) days when we weren't too hot and the day will eventually happen when we drop out of division one of the league. You obviously put a lot of thought into it anyway wobbler, and no more than yourself, I'm against change for the sake of change especially after one bad hiding two(three/four) counties got.
Stall - how's it disrespectful? On 1 March they have exactly the same chance of making the last 16 as every other county in Ireland. If by 1 July they've shown that (in this particular season only) they're not in the top 16 teams in Ireland, then why create a "B" competition for them to continue proving this point? Go back to club football, charge the batteries, and work harder the following season.
Chimley, this is the multiplier effect.
Mayo got 9 league points in the National League in D1 in 2014. This is multiplied by the D1 multiplier (2.5), to give 22.5. Then they won 2, 4, and 6 points in their 3 matches in Connacht Championship. That's 34.5.
If Mayo had have got their 9 league points in D4, then that would have been multiplied by 1. They'd have still got 21 points and more than comfortably made the AI Championship - just not as as a top seed.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 01:28:03 PM
Chimley, this is the multiplier effect.
Mayo got 9 league points in the National League in D1 in 2014. This is multiplied by the D1 multiplier (2.5), to give 22.5. Then they won 2, 4, and 6 points in their 3 matches in Connacht Championship. That's 34.5.
If Mayo had have got their 9 league points in D4, then that would have been multiplied by 1. They'd have still got 21 points and more than comfortably made the AI Championship - just not as as a top seed.
Thanks Wobbler. I was thrown off by the fact that you had written '- A D4 win is worth 1 Championship Entry Point (a draw is worth 0.5).' I think that should read '- A D4
point is worth 1 Championship Entry Point (a draw is worth 1).'
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 01:28:03 PM
Stall - how's it disrespectful? On 1 March they have exactly the same chance of making the last 16 as every other county in Ireland. If by 1 July they've shown that (in this particular season only) they're not in the top 16 teams in Ireland, then why create a "B" competition for them to continue proving this point? Go back to club football, charge the batteries, and work harder the following season.
Because on March the 1st not all teams are starting with same resources available. Reaching a provincial final could be a over achievement for some and underachievement for others. For some achieving the top 16 may never be possible. When setting goals you need to set realistic ones. The true fact is, that there will be some counties who will never win a sam maguire. Why pretend they can and then call them mediocre when they don't?
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 01:10:06 PM
But personally I'd be against weighting Championship football by opponents. Championship football is the luck of the draw, and same as for the Superbowl or the FA Cup, some years you might have to work harder to achieve the same result... your target doesn't change because of who you are playing - it's still taking the steps needed to win silverware. Hence I'd prefer that it's the steps that are rewarded, and not what was required at each step.
Sorry the current Provincial system is weighed in favour of Connacht and Munster, less teams and games to play in order to win, and also further against Ulster where more of the better teams are.
Any new proposal should address this bias in the current system.
For example
Donegal may need to beat a D3 and 3xD1 teams to win Ulster (Donegal will need to beat a D3 and 2xD1 to make the last 12) while
Kerry/Cork will only need to beat a D3 and a D1 team to win Munster (both will only need to beat D3 to get into the last 12)
Mayo only need to win one game to make the last 12 and so on for many other counties.
Thanks Chimley, I've updated the opening post to correct the anomaly.
Stall, let's not get hung up on words - you seem to have a bizarre objection to my use of the word "mediocre", when a good league-based system is by far the best way to allow poor, mediocre and good teams to both perform at their own level, and improve when the time is right. This is actually at the heart of the proposal.
Where we might differ is that I'm fundamentally against junior / B championships in county football, as my belief is that senior club football should be prioritised ahead of second or third tier county activity. One of the pillars of this proposal is that the county season is truncated with this in mind. If the second 16 were to subsequently enter a "B" competition, then not only would this short-season concept be ruined, but it would create an unsatisfactory competition, where for example using 2014's teams, Armagh would (I imagine) have no interest in competing, and would send out second string teams until their exit. Which would help nobody. Tommy Murphy on speed.
while it is an excellent and fair system and a lot of more thought has gone into it than our replies but a couple of obsevations
1)would the significance of any result be hard to gauge at the time or beforehand which could make them a hard sell
2)would the league really last if its mainm purpose was to serve the allireland series.
3)some smaller counties can only peak for summer , due to shallow squads and small numbers and occasionally punch occasionally above their weight . im think Sligo longford and wexford. would these counties be permantly be cut off from serious football.
4) being regularly cut off there could be a serious downward spiral , players leaving or unwilling to commit when they cannot see themselves playing past late may or june ( i know the current situation is similar but isint improvement the point of the excercize)
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 02:25:46 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 01:10:06 PM
But personally I'd be against weighting Championship football by opponents. Championship football is the luck of the draw, and same as for the Superbowl or the FA Cup, some years you might have to work harder to achieve the same result... your target doesn't change because of who you are playing - it's still taking the steps needed to win silverware. Hence I'd prefer that it's the steps that are rewarded, and not what was required at each step.
Sorry the current Provincial system is weighed in favour of Connacht and Munster, less teams and games to play in order to win, and also further against Ulster where more of the better teams are.
Any new proposal should address this bias in the current system.
For example
Donegal may need to beat a D3 and 3xD1 teams to win Ulster (Donegal will need to beat a D3 and 2xD1 to make the last 12) while
Kerry/Cork will only need to beat a D3 and a D1 team to win Munster (both will only need to beat D3 to get into the last 12)
Mayo only need to win one game to make the last 12 and so on for many other counties.
You might be right. But the only genuine solution to the inequities of the provincial system is to rip it up and start again, by first balancing the numbers in each region. Personally I'd prefer to see Down win Ulster than win north. I do like heritage.
Regarding qualifying, I've not done much research into numbers, but using my "back of feg packet" multipliers:
- Winning 3 games in D1 would give you 15 points and a certain place in the AI championship.
- Winning 4 games in D2 would give you 16 points and a certain place in the AI championship.
- Winning 5 games in D3 would give you 15 points and a certain place in the AI championship.
- Winning 7 games in D4 would give you 14 points and an almost certain place in the AI championship.
That should be every team's early season goal. Do that, and the Provincials are icing on the cake.
By the way, if Monaghan and Cork both finished D1 on 4 league points (giving them 10 qualifying points), and Monaghan were playing Antrim in the USFC Q/F (worth 2 points) and Cork were directly through to playing Kerry in the MSFC S/F (worth 4 points)... who would you be backing to make the final 16?
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
While it might need some tweaking, I think the basic idea has great merit. I can see the GAA looking at this idea or a variant going forward.
Quote from: rosnarun on June 05, 2015, 02:34:33 PM
while it is an excellent and fair system and a lot of more thought has gone into it than our replies but a couple of obsevations
1)would the significance of any result be hard to gauge at the time or beforehand which could make them a hard sell
2)would the league really last if its mainm purpose was to serve the allireland series.
3)some smaller counties can only peak for summer , due to shallow squads and small numbers and occasionally punch occasionally above their weight . im think Sligo longford and wexford. would these counties be permantly be cut off from serious football.
4) being regularly cut off there could be a serious downward spiral , players leaving or unwilling to commit when they cannot see themselves playing past late may or june ( i know the current situation is similar but isint improvement the point of the excercize)
1. See above post re setting your league goals early (3 D1 wins, 4 D2 wins, etc). Everyone will know what they need to be sure of playing in the big show; so every result is significant.
2. The purpose of the league (I believe) would be re-fulfilled by the multiplier making your Division hugely significant. Also, by removing the end of year play-offs, the best teams in a league format take the honours.
3. In saying that some counties can only peak for summer, then surely a truncated season is a helping hand? Take Sligo - they would then need their players to be fundamentally committed from March to May. If that commitment pays off, then it's bonus territory.
4. Again, if I was a player in a weaker county my mindset every year would be "let's give this a proper rattle early doors, and if doesn't pay off, I've my life back - but if it does, then there's fewer obstacles to me winning an AI". But truth be told I wouldn't know much about what it feels like to be a player!
By the way I'm not arguing that your points are wrong... but there's a greyness in the theories that I suppose we won't know if it's a whiter grey or a blacker grey until it's instigated.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.
I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.
I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.
The reward of winning a provincial championship is surely the medal in your back pocket and sense of achievement you get from succeeding in reaching your goals after months of hard work and bonding with your team. Getting into the provincial club championship isn't a 'reward' for winning a county championship in my opinion, knowing you are the best team in your county for that year and seeing your picture on the wall in the club is the reward, getting another crack at another trophy with the best teams from other counties is just the icing on the cake. Even if Down had qualified for the last sixteen I'd still be disappointed and pi**ed off if they managed to go out at the quarter final stage to any team, regardless of who it was against.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on June 05, 2015, 03:18:18 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.
I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.
The reward of winning a provincial championship is surely the medal in your back pocket and sense of achievement you get from succeeding in reaching your goals after months of hard work and bonding with your team. Getting into the provincial club championship isn't a 'reward' for winning a county championship in my opinion, knowing you are the best team in your county for that year and seeing your picture on the wall in the club is the reward, getting another crack at another trophy with the best teams from other counties is just the icing on the cake. Even if Down had qualified for the last sixteen I'd still be disappointed and pi**ed off if they managed to go out at the quarter final stage to any team, regardless of who it was against.
I agree fully. I meant the additional reward it had with relevancy to the All Ireland series.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on June 05, 2015, 03:18:18 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.
I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.
The reward of winning a provincial championship is surely the medal in your back pocket and sense of achievement you get from succeeding in reaching your goals after months of hard work and bonding with your team. Getting into the provincial club championship isn't a 'reward' for winning a county championship in my opinion, knowing you are the best team in your county for that year and seeing your picture on the wall in the club is the reward, getting another crack at another trophy with the best teams from other counties is just the icing on the cake. Even if Down had qualified for the last sixteen I'd still be disappointed and pi**ed off if they managed to go out at the quarter final stage to any team, regardless of who it was against.
I agree fully. I meant the additional reward it had with relevancy to the All Ireland series.
Baller has a point here. Is a higher seeding enough of a reward, in the All Ireland series, for Provincial winners! If we move to the mindset of seeing it as a separate competition then yes, I can see it working. Good post Wobbler, at least it hasnt been ripped apart within 4 pages!!
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on June 05, 2015, 03:18:18 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.
I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.
The reward of winning a provincial championship is surely the medal in your back pocket and sense of achievement you get from succeeding in reaching your goals after months of hard work and bonding with your team. Getting into the provincial club championship isn't a 'reward' for winning a county championship in my opinion, knowing you are the best team in your county for that year and seeing your picture on the wall in the club is the reward, getting another crack at another trophy with the best teams from other counties is just the icing on the cake. Even if Down had qualified for the last sixteen I'd still be disappointed and pi**ed off if they managed to go out at the quarter final stage to any team, regardless of who it was against.
I agree fully. I meant the additional reward it had with relevancy to the All Ireland series.
Sorry, misread your post!
Quote from: OgraAnDun on June 05, 2015, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on June 05, 2015, 03:18:18 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 05, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 05, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.
Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.
I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.
The reward of winning a provincial championship is surely the medal in your back pocket and sense of achievement you get from succeeding in reaching your goals after months of hard work and bonding with your team. Getting into the provincial club championship isn't a 'reward' for winning a county championship in my opinion, knowing you are the best team in your county for that year and seeing your picture on the wall in the club is the reward, getting another crack at another trophy with the best teams from other counties is just the icing on the cake. Even if Down had qualified for the last sixteen I'd still be disappointed and pi**ed off if they managed to go out at the quarter final stage to any team, regardless of who it was against.
I agree fully. I meant the additional reward it had with relevancy to the All Ireland series.
Sorry, misread your post!
No need to be sorry, you did raise why a provincial title is important, something I probably didn't do.
Wobbler.
When I saw the length of the opening post, I assumed this would be another terrible, overcomplicated idea. As a proudly sarcastic p***k, I was rubbing my hands with glee, assuming that I had happened upon a post ripe for a piss taking. Just in case, I read through the OP, and alas, I was mistaken. It's quite frankly an excellent idea, well thought out and feasible. f**k it anyway.
I will have to say 'well done', albeit grudgingly.
Very well thought out and original as well wobbler, best idea I've heard yet
The one downside might be the lack of interest in having all games on a particular weekend as they'll miss out on a lot of TV revenue. It would be great for the club game but the top brass are unlikely to go for it IMO
Ingenious system , Wobbler. Retaining the best aspects of the current system, whilst making the league more competitive with every game having meaning.
Perhaps a minor tweak , applying slightly more weight to league status might be justifiable ,as Clare ,Tipperary , for example , in 2014 achieved top 16 status in your list, partly on the basis of a less competitive Munster championship containing fewer teams . The other alternative could be to playoff teams graded 13 to 20 , to produce the last 4 places for "the round of 16".
The mcnamee system , allows every county the glamour of being in the All Ireland series, and the motivation to be competitive in every game. It doesn't keep demotivated teams twiddling their thumbs and putting club football on hold for weeks, while they await an unattractive qualifier .
Seems fair but this bothers me:
- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.
Because so many Ulster sides reside in Divs 1-2, a quarter final in Ulster is equivalent to other provincial finals.
Quote from: Darby on June 05, 2015, 08:59:34 PM
Wobbler.
When I saw the length of the opening post, I assumed this would be another terrible, overcomplicated idea. As a proudly sarcastic p***k, I was rubbing my hands with glee, assuming that I had happened upon a post ripe for a piss taking. Just in case, I read through the OP, and alas, I was mistaken. It's quite frankly an excellent idea, well thought out and feasible. f**k it anyway.
I will have to say 'well done', albeit grudgingly.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Darby. I was ready to try and pick holes in the idea as I initially thought it was going to be too long winded and complicated but fair play Wobbler, you have come up with a well thought out system that, although may need a few tweeks, seems very workable. As long as an up to date table of current point levels are published each week so people can see where their team stands then I think it could really work. No doubt Joe Brolly will be rehashing this as we speak. .
Looks like a solid idea Wobbler. Did you email it in to Eugene McGee and the rule changes dudes.
The system definitely has a lot of merit and should be further discussed. It's win win win IMO and teams will play to the end of the league and should do away with in the main the Longford v Dublin type of game we witnessed last weekend.
Wouldn't it be great if Congress / the hierarchy approved a proposal from the board ?.
We could call it Wobbler's Way.
In what way do you all find this superior to Rossfan's proposal on the other thread?
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 06, 2015, 08:46:13 AM
Quote from: Darby on June 05, 2015, 08:59:34 PM
Wobbler.
When I saw the length of the opening post, I assumed this would be another terrible, overcomplicated idea. As a proudly sarcastic p***k, I was rubbing my hands with glee, assuming that I had happened upon a post ripe for a piss taking. Just in case, I read through the OP, and alas, I was mistaken. It's quite frankly an excellent idea, well thought out and feasible. f**k it anyway.
I will have to say 'well done', albeit grudgingly.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Darby. I was ready to try and pick holes in the idea as I initially thought it was going to be too long winded and complicated but fair play Wobbler, you have come up with a well thought out system that, although may need a few tweeks, seems very workable. As long as an up to date table of current point levels are published each week so people can see where their team stands then I think it could really work. No doubt Joe Brolly will be rehashing this as we speak. .
I'm scared as well.
Quote from: ONeill on June 06, 2015, 01:06:54 AM
Seems fair but this bothers me:
- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.
Because so many Ulster sides reside in Divs 1-2, a quarter final in Ulster is equivalent to other provincial finals.
I agree with this; may be better to award two points for a win in the championship, regardless of the stage. You could go a stage further and give an extra point if you beat a team two divisions above you or two if they are three above you. Similarly only one point for a win if the winning team is two divisions higher and nothing if Mayo beat London or Leitrim of if Donegal beat Antrim.
Quote from: Champion The Wonder Horse on June 06, 2015, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: ONeill on June 06, 2015, 01:06:54 AM
Seems fair but this bothers me:
- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.
Because so many Ulster sides reside in Divs 1-2, a quarter final in Ulster is equivalent to other provincial finals.
I agree with this; may be better to award two points for a win in the championship, regardless of the stage. You could go a stage further and give an extra point if you beat a team two divisions above you or two if they are three above you. Similarly only one point for a win if the winning team is two divisions higher and nothing if Mayo beat London or Leitrim of if Donegal beat Antrim.
See the key thing about the original proposal is that there is next to no complexity or contortion involved... and I'd suggest that the quest for absolute equality such as in the comment quoted here, just adds unnecessary confusion - with minimal to no gains to arise.
For example, given that the leagues would be over before some teams plays in the provincials, which season would we grade teams by? Are Westmeath with 0 points and relegated to D2 really worth more weighting than a D2 team that's recently won promotion with 6 victories out of 7?
I get a continued sense from reading these suggestions that Ulster teams would be penalised as a result of the strength of that province. This folks might actually be true, but in 5 years time it might be the opposite; it might be Leinster that enjoys a golden period of competitiveness. Look at the longer picture and stop trying to find ways of guaranteeing that 7 Ulster side make the last 16. As mentioned previously, if they do the business in the league, then a QF knockout won't matter; they'll still be through to the last 16. This, in my opinion, should play into the hands of a dominant province, and not penalise them.
---
Thanks for the nice feedback folks.
I like it, well thought out and tries to address all the issues around at the moment. I would agree with a previous post that I like how the championship lasts all summer but I'm sure I could live through it and also maybe this would put the focus back on the club game lasting all summer. Defo worth a shot.
One thing that I would say would be a big obstacle to its introduction is that it is a huge shift from the current system. That was the thing about the backdoor it just sort of piggy backed on top of the straight knockout system so it was easy to implement, as big a change as this will have the old stuck in their ways types (and there is alot around...this is Ireland!) up in arms even tho they won't be able to explain why.
But good job, now whats the next step?...have you gave Jarlath a call yet?
Quote from: thewobbler on June 06, 2015, 08:29:39 PM
Quote from: Champion The Wonder Horse on June 06, 2015, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: ONeill on June 06, 2015, 01:06:54 AM
Seems fair but this bothers me:
- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.
Because so many Ulster sides reside in Divs 1-2, a quarter final in Ulster is equivalent to other provincial finals.
I agree with this; may be better to award two points for a win in the championship, regardless of the stage. You could go a stage further and give an extra point if you beat a team two divisions above you or two if they are three above you. Similarly only one point for a win if the winning team is two divisions higher and nothing if Mayo beat London or Leitrim of if Donegal beat Antrim.
See the key thing about the original proposal is that there is next to no complexity or contortion involved... and I'd suggest that the quest for absolute equality such as in the comment quoted here, just adds unnecessary confusion - with minimal to no gains to arise.
For example, given that the leagues would be over before some teams plays in the provincials, which season would we grade teams by? Are Westmeath with 0 points and relegated to D2 really worth more weighting than a D2 team that's recently won promotion with 6 victories out of 7?
I get a continued sense from reading these suggestions that Ulster teams would be penalised as a result of the strength of that province. This folks might actually be true, but in 5 years time it might be the opposite; it might be Leinster that enjoys a golden period of competitiveness. Look at the longer picture and stop trying to find ways of guaranteeing that 7 Ulster side make the last 16. As mentioned previously, if they do the business in the league, then a QF knockout won't matter; they'll still be through to the last 16. This, in my opinion, should play into the hands of a dominant province, and not penalise them.
But that's not the case. Say Donegal win 2 D1 games (probably staving off relegation) and are knocked out in the preliminary round by Monaghan. But Leitrim win all 7 d4 or d3 games and make their provincial final having defeated London and Sligo.
I'm finding your logic a bit flawed here O Neill.
Are you suggesting that (in this example) a Donegal team that faces a relegation battle in the league, and gets dumped out of Ulster in round 1, would be hard done by if they weren't awarded a place in the AI Championship?
Personally I don't see it. The system is designed to reward form. In this particular instance Donegal have no form.
They'd probably find it more galling if your example was tweaked as Liatroim winning just 3 D4 games then making the Connacht final was to get them a place (with 12 championship points).
But I'd argue all day and night that in this example it's still clear that Donegal don't deserve a place; they've still lost 6 out of 8 games this year. Chanpionship form suggests liatroim might just about deserve one (although going in as 15th or 16th seed, thy probably won't be around for long)
Excellent work Wobbler. Feg packets must be a lot bigger than in my day!! A few minor tweaks might be needed. Champions should automatically make the following year's 16 and provincial champs must also be guaranteed a slot. Kerry or Cork could lose all 7 league games, winning Munster with no quarter final game would leave them short on points with just 10.
Your example shows Westmeath going from Div 1 to no championship football...no incentive to go for promotion out of Div 2 it would seem. That is a problem.
How about adding one more series of games...those seeded 9 to 16 playoff with those 17 to 24. A Div 1 team should be guaranteed no worse than a 24 seed would fix the Westmeath issue. I suppose you could add another weekend before that where 17 to 24 play 25 to 32...everyone is in the hunt then. No replays is a good step. Finish it all by Aug 31 must be the rule.
Should provincial championships be seeded based on league position? Ulster's prelim game would be Fermanagh/Antrim this year to be the 8 seed, or were Armagh behind Fermanagh after the 7 league games? The others are guaranteed your points from a provincial QF. 1 v 8, 2 v7, etc for the rest of the Ulster championship.
Let the debate continue, Irish papers please copy.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 07, 2015, 09:26:43 AM
Excellent work Wobbler. Feg packets must be a lot bigger than in my day!! A few minor tweaks might be needed. Champions should automatically make the following year's 16 and provincial champs must also be guaranteed a slot. Kerry or Cork could lose all 7 league games, winning Munster with no quarter final game would leave them short on points with just 10.
Your example shows Westmeath going from Div 1 to no championship football...no incentive to go for promotion out of Div 2 it would seem. That is a problem.
How about adding one more series of games...those seeded 9 to 16 playoff with those 17 to 24. A Div 1 team should be guaranteed no wtorse than a 24 seed would fix the Westmeath issue. I suppose you could add another weekend before that where 17 to 24 play 25 to 32...everyone is in the hunt then. No replays is a good step. Finish it all by Aug 31 must be the rule.
Should provincial championships be seeded based on league position? Ulster's prelim game would be Fermanagh/Antrim this year to be the 8 seed, or were Armagh behind Fermanagh after the 7 league games? The others are guaranteed your points from a provincial QF. 1 v 8, 2 v7, etc for the rest of the Ulster championship.
Let the debate continue, Irish papers please copy.
No, no stop. Cease and desist. You've plastered my rare fillet steak in fish sauce. You're making homer Simpson's car.
We don't need 24 teams in the AI. The system is devised as a quality control measure, not as a series of back doors to allow for freakish fluctuations in performance.
If a team goes 0 and 7 in the league, I couldn't give a damn if they win their provincial final by 50 points; the only logical conclusion is that their entire province is dismal that current season.
Last year's winners getting a bye? Why? It's all about this season.
Westmeath's incentive is the same as every other footballer in Ireland - to play to their best of their abilities.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 07, 2015, 06:47:38 AM
I'm finding your logic a bit flawed here O Neill.
Are you suggesting that (in this example) a Donegal team that faces a relegation battle in the league, and gets dumped out of Ulster in round 1, would be hard done by if they weren't awarded a place in the AI Championship?
Personally I don't see it. The system is designed to reward form. In this particular instance Donegal have no form.
They'd probably find it more galling if your example was tweaked as Liatroim winning just 3 D4 games then making the Connacht final was to get them a place (with 12 championship points).
But I'd argue all day and night that in this example it's still clear that Donegal don't deserve a place; they've still lost 6 out of 8 games this year. Chanpionship form suggests liatroim might just about deserve one (although going in as 15th or 16th seed, thy probably won't be around for long)
But it's punishing teams with stiffer opposition. Donegal would hammer Leitrim by 20 points if they met but Leitrim progress further because they played 9 games against D3 or D4 opposition (league and SFC) whilst Donegal scrapped out narrow defeats to Kerry/Mayo etc.
So, effectively, in order to gain enough points it might be in a county's interest (not all...the middlin brigade) to stay in D3 or D2 and avoid a wipe out in a higher league.
Tyrone won 1 game in D1 (Mayo), drew with Dubs, Kerry and Derry, and lost by a point to Cork. Then they exited to Donegal in the SFC prelim. Fermanagh won 5 D3 games and beat Antrim in the SFC. Or Longford won 6 D4 games. Surely there's an imbalance there that better sides, with better footballers, sit it out because they were mixing it with the heavyweights since Feb.
You want the best gaelic footballers in the latter stages, not a D4 side in great form by beating other D4 sides.
A possible tweak is a different mechanism for earning points which includes an award of points for a loss and the division which a league loss comes in denotes a weighted "loss" award
Quote from: ONeill on June 07, 2015, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 07, 2015, 06:47:38 AM
I'm finding your logic a bit flawed here O Neill.
Are you suggesting that (in this example) a Donegal team that faces a relegation battle in the league, and gets dumped out of Ulster in round 1, would be hard done by if they weren't awarded a place in the AI Championship?
Personally I don't see it. The system is designed to reward form. In this particular instance Donegal have no form.
They'd probably find it more galling if your example was tweaked as Liatroim winning just 3 D4 games then making the Connacht final was to get them a place (with 12 championship points).
But I'd argue all day and night that in this example it's still clear that Donegal don't deserve a place; they've still lost 6 out of 8 games this year. Chanpionship form suggests liatroim might just about deserve one (although going in as 15th or 16th seed, thy probably won't be around for long)
But it's punishing teams with stiffer opposition. Donegal would hammer Leitrim by 20 points if they met but Leitrim progress further because they played 9 games against D3 or D4 opposition (league and SFC) whilst Donegal scrapped out narrow defeats to Kerry/Mayo etc.
So, effectively, in order to gain enough points it might be in a county's interest (not all...the middlin brigade) to stay in D3 or D2 and avoid a wipe out in a higher league.
Tyrone won 1 game in D1 (Mayo), drew with Dubs, Kerry and Derry, and lost by a point to Cork. Then they exited to Donegal in the SFC prelim. Fermanagh won 5 D3 games and beat Antrim in the SFC. Or Longford won 6 D4 games. Surely there's an imbalance there that better sides, with better footballers, sit it out because they were mixing it with the heavyweights since Feb.
You want the best gaelic footballers in the latter stages, not a D4 side in great form by beating other D4 sides.
A d4 side - what a smashing idea. Let's buy some land in balls bridge.
Yeah but the problem is O'Neill, there can't be a perfect system.
The same way the FA Cup 3rd round will always see a few all-premiership ties, or there'll be a conference in the NFL with 3 genuine Super Bowl contenders, or there's always a group of death in the RWC and the Heineken and the World Cup. Unless you can find a completely impartial human being to handpick the draw, then the finer points always come down to an element of fate and luck.
The problem with weighting knockout games is that it doesn't change this one iota. There will always be an element of chance depending on the form of the competitors. My preference is that every team knows before the first ball is kicked that it's entirely up to them if they make the last 16. That's the beauty of league football.
By the way, with the weighting suggested, there is pretty much zero chance of any more than 6 teams from Divisions 3 and 4 getting through. It weighte to favour the top sides.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 07, 2015, 10:27:49 AM
Yeah but the problem is O'Neill, there can't be a perfect system.
The same way the FA Cup 3rd round will always see a few all-premiership ties, or there'll be a conference in the NFL with 3 genuine Super Bowl contenders, or there's always a group of death in the RWC and the Heineken and the World Cup. Unless you can find a completely impartial human being to handpick the draw, then the finer points always come down to an element of fate and luck.
The FA Cup is a cup competition. Teams like Millwall and Cardiff can reach the final. The GAA season should see the best teams battle it out - not a lottery or secondary competition like the English FA Cup. If a conference has 3 Super Bowl contenders, they'll probably go as far as it's possible in the post-season.
Your system sees top sides handicapped because of their standing. Derry could lose all 7 D1 games narrowly and still be far too good for any D4 or most (probably all) D3 sides but have to sit it out. I'm not happy seeing our best gaelic footballers twiddling their thumbs (county-wise) because they're a heavyweight.
The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.
Quote from: ONeill on June 08, 2015, 11:40:19 PM
The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.
This. A thousand times this.
I love the Ulster Championship but it has to go in the interests of the greater good. It's never lost on me how the provinces continue to hold such a grip - whether it is the outrageous contortions that go into having a meaningful Leinster Hurling Championship, or the oft trotted out alternative that is four football groups of eight based on North, South, East and West.
And by the way Wobbler - I doff my hat to your effort - the best yet to try and retain the provinces and also have a fair Championship. But even then the efforts needed to retain the provincials leads to a complex series of mathematical formulas.
Jimmy's robbing ideas?
His IT article today is strangely familiar to wobblers idea for the championship structure.
QuoteLet the debate continue, Irish papers please copy.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fsport%2Fgaelic-games%2Fjim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993
Quote from: ONeill on June 08, 2015, 11:40:19 PM
Your system sees top sides handicapped because of their standing. Derry could lose all 7 D1 games narrowly and still be far too good for any D4 or most (probably all) D3 sides but have to sit it out. I'm not happy seeing our best gaelic footballers twiddling their thumbs (county-wise) because they're a heavyweight.
They are not a top side if the lose all seven league games. They're losers. And if the league actually meant something, as it would in this system, how could you argue for a seven-time competitive loser getting a place in the All-Ireland series?
Quote
The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.
The reform of the system comes down to GAA politics and politics is the art of the possible. It is obvious that the provincial system will not be abolished, however logical the case for it. It's the turkeys/Christmas argument, as well as the stranglehold the holy cow of Tradition has on the development of the games.
Politics is also the art of compromise. Settling for nothing less than the ideal is a recipe for failure to achieve anything. This is by far the best accommodation of the political realities I've seen in any reform proposal and, to my mind, it compromise very little to achieve a hell of a lot.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on June 09, 2015, 12:22:20 AMthe efforts needed to retain the provincials leads to a complex series of mathematical formulas.
Complex? Hardly.
Quote from: Hardy on June 09, 2015, 10:47:16 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 08, 2015, 11:40:19 PM
Your system sees top sides handicapped because of their standing. Derry could lose all 7 D1 games narrowly and still be far too good for any D4 or most (probably all) D3 sides but have to sit it out. I'm not happy seeing our best gaelic footballers twiddling their thumbs (county-wise) because they're a heavyweight.
They are not a top side if the lose all seven league games. They're losers. And if the league actually meant something, as it would in this system, how could you argue for a seven-time competitive loser getting a place in the All-Ireland series?
Quote
The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.
The reform of the system comes down to GAA politics and politics is the art of the possible. It is obvious that the provincial system will not be abolished, however logical the case for it. It's the turkeys/Christmas argument, as well as the stranglehold the holy cow of Tradition has on the development of the games.
Politics is also the art of compromise. Settling for nothing less than the ideal is a recipe for failure to achieve anything. This is by far the best accommodation of the political realities I've seen in any reform proposal and, to my mind, it compromise very little to achieve a hell of a lot.
Perhaps not but take Westemeath a couple of years ago. They get promoted to division 1 and struggle in the top division and lose all seven games. I'd have thought it harsh not to play in the tournament at the expense of someone in Division 4.
I might have to start a Rossfan fan-club as nobody seems to take any notice of his much better proposal, in my opinion.
Reverting the leagues back to 1A/1B and 2A/2B would help to ensure that the top teams won't miss out in Wobbler's system.
Good discussion on the subject on Shannonside last Saturday .
Consensus was -
Provincials should be kept.
Secondary competition for "weaker" Counties but with entry to main Sam competition at end of it.
Now where did I hear that before?? ;)
John Duffy of Longford had a proposal that seemed to involve abolishing the NFL, running the Provincials on a League basis, top half of each Province playing for Sam in a knock out system and the bottom half playing in a secondary competition.
Was driving/working at the time so didn't get the full gist of it.
I'm going to ask what some people might see as a stupid question!
What problem are we trying to solve with all these proposed new systems?
There are several problems in the gaa (no doubt) but what specific problem(s) are we trying to solve here?
As far as I can see, the latest driving force for change was dublin's hammering of longford. But IMO the only change to the system to prevent hammerings between the top sides and the bottom sides is to avoid them playing each other. (And lots of people, including me, are not in favour of separate championships for the bottom teams).
So, what's the problem?
Well if someone is going to pick up my system and run with it, then I'd be happy that it's Jimmy.
In fairness he's caught the jist of what I'd like to see i.e. maintaining the same competitions, but ensuring that every game is made meaningful by placing the best teams in the AI Championship based on their form of that season.
While at first glance his system looks easier to calculate as there's no multipliers, I reckon it would actually cause more confusion as 90% of AI champions and provincial champions will also be in the top 12 league positions. So we'd end up in a scenario where some people would want beaten provincial finalists to take the last 4 slots, and other people would want those slots returned to league form. And then we'd have scenarios where all beaten provincial finalists are also in the top 12, and then do the spots go to semi-finalists, or back to the league? Obviously all this can be drawn up and agreed in advance, but with that many clauses it's always going to cause detrimental opinion and a load of teams feeling hard done by.
I still also would argue strongly against any "B" Championship. While Jimmy's theory of playing the games as curtain-raisers is well founded, my genuine belief is that all a B Championship does is increase the costs of running a county team, while forcing players to play for something the majority of them don't want to win. Meanwhile, across Ireland, the clubs are fuming that their best players are being withheld for a piss pot competition. Let's put club football back on the pedestal it deserves, which means no "B" county football.
Quote from: westbound on June 09, 2015, 11:48:36 AM
I'm going to ask what some people might see as a stupid question!
What problem are we trying to solve with all these proposed new systems?
There are several problems in the gaa (no doubt) but what specific problem(s) are we trying to solve here?
As far as I can see, the latest driving force for change was dublin's hammering of longford. But IMO the only change to the system to prevent hammerings between the top sides and the bottom sides is to avoid them playing each other. (And lots of people, including me, are not in favour of separate championships for the bottom teams).
So, what's the problem?
- The intercounty season is too long and leaves it impossible to properly schedule club football
- The provincial system doesnt give every team the csame chance of progressing through the allireland series
.
Those are the two major issues for me.
QuoteSo, what's the problem?
1 - The same top 8 teams each year in the QF's and no sign of that changing anytime soon.
2 - Dublin always playing at home
3 - Attendances down
4 - No 'spice' to the championship until August
5 - League is a complete and utter waste of time
6 - No atmosphere at matchs
7 - 'Weaker' teams only getting 2 outings per year yet the commitment on these counties to training etc is a lot higher in the modern era
8 - Rugby is slowly strengthening nationwide
9 - Soccer is slowly strengthening nationwide
10 - Club fixtures are all over the shop and lack consistency nationwide
That's 10 problems / issues that I perceive are present.
11. The costs of running county football squads are extraordinary, and for most counties the back door is little more than a 4-6 week stay of execution.
Quote from: westbound on June 09, 2015, 11:48:36 AM
So, what's the problem?
I don't think there's that much wrong with it as it stands but for me:
- a large part of the season spent on a competition which is of secondary importance despite teams taking it more seriously than previously
- a good proportion of the championship games before August being between teams at vastly different levels
- championship as it stands takes too long to run off (I can't see this changing as long intercounty season = more lives games = more revenue)
Other problems which won't be addressed by this but seeing as you asked:
- disparity in funding between bigger and smaller counties
- negative / sh*te reporting and "analysis" from RTE
Quote from: highorlow on June 09, 2015, 12:14:42 PM
QuoteSo, what's the problem?
1 - The same top 8 teams each year in the QF's and no sign of that changing anytime soon.
2 - Dublin always playing at home
3 - Attendances down
4 - No 'spice' to the championship until August
5 - League is a complete and utter waste of time
6 - No atmosphere at matchs
7 - 'Weaker' teams only getting 2 outings per year yet the commitment on these counties to training etc is a lot higher in the modern era
8 - Rugby is slowly strengthening nationwide
9 - Soccer is slowly strengthening nationwide
10 - Club fixtures are all over the shop and lack consistency nationwide
That's 10 problems / issues that I perceive are present.
Most of those problems don't exist . Numbers 8 and 9 in particular . 3 and 5 are fanciful. Plus have you seen what teams make the last 8 of the champions league every year? Evidently not
Quote from: Hardy on June 09, 2015, 10:48:04 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on June 09, 2015, 12:22:20 AMthe efforts needed to retain the provincials leads to a complex series of mathematical formulas.
Complex? Hardly.
In relative terms Hardy - compared to two points for a win, or straight knockout.
Regarding Jimmy McGuinness' idea. I quite like it. One suggestion I would make is that the provincial champions go into the AI championships as seeds 1, 2, 3 and 4. The rankings of these based on who had the highest finishing position in the leagues. This would make the provincial championship more meaningful for all counties. Would a county who has finished top of league 1 coast in the provincials if their top seed place was guaranteed ?
QuoteMost of those problems don't exist . Numbers 8 and 9 in particular . 3 and 5 are fanciful. Plus have you seen what teams make the last 8 of the champions league every year? Evidently not
Numbers 8 and 9 do, particularly outside Dublin, you wouldn't be in a position to comment on that.
My own home town has a soccer club that is getting stronger by the year. No soccer existed in the town when I was growing up. Back west we lost the like of Henshaw, Leader, McKeon, Muldoon, Duffy to rugby. So to say they don't exist is pure nonsense.
3 is not fanciful, go check the numbers. I'd guess a very small attendance for Galway v Mayo next Sunday compared to other years for a similar fixture.
Ok, maybe the league is not a complete waste of time as it helps to blood players for teams, that's it's only use. The majority of games are damp sqibs.
I've no comment to make on the champions league only to say that I'm mystified how you can draw a comparison between an international money run sport and our national games.
It'd be interesting to look back at the end of the provincials and see which teams would have made it through to the AI series using this format. Tyrone would be one early casualty anyway. Although if they knew what was at stake during their league campaign, they might have performed better.
This 'only getting started in August' stuff I constantly hear annoys me.
Who came up with this?
Quote from: Jinxy on June 09, 2015, 02:48:09 PM
This 'only getting started in August' stuff I constantly hear annoys me.
Who came up with this?
Blame Syferus
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 09, 2015, 02:41:58 PM
It'd be interesting to look back at the end of the provincials and see which teams would have made it through to the AI series using this format. Tyrone would be one early casualty anyway. Although if they knew what was at stake during their league campaign, they might have performed better.
Do you mean McGuinness' idea or Wobbler's? Either way Tyrone may have been in the top 16. Under Jimmy's idea they would be ranked 9th and using Wobbler's, Tyrone won 1 league game and drew 3. This would have earned them 5 league points x 2.5 = 12.5 points which based on 2014 figures could have ranked them 16th. That would have made for a tasty last 16 game with the top ranked team.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 09, 2015, 02:59:46 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 09, 2015, 02:41:58 PM
It'd be interesting to look back at the end of the provincials and see which teams would have made it through to the AI series using this format. Tyrone would be one early casualty anyway. Although if they knew what was at stake during their league campaign, they might have performed better.
Do you mean McGuinness' idea or Wobbler's? Either way Tyrone may have been in the top 16. Under Jimmy's idea they would be ranked 9th and using Wobbler's. Tyrone won 1 league game and drew 3. This would have earned them 5 league points x 2.5 = 12.5 points which based on 2014 figures could have ranked them 16th. That would have made for a tasty last 16 game with the top ranked team.
My apologies, I thought Tyrone only got 4 points, not 5,
McGuinness's column is the most read article on the Irish Times website today.
Suck that up Fintan O'Toole. The GAA barbarians are at the gates!!!
Quote from: BluestackBoy on June 09, 2015, 04:17:16 PM
McGuinness's column is the most read article on the Irish Times website today.
Suck that up Fintan O'Toole. The GAA barbarians are at the gates!!!
Darragh's will be the most popular one tomorrow as usual.
Looking at Jims proposals, what is he really doing. Basically everything (almost) stays the same except the first few rounds of qualifiers disappear. We still have the league as normal, we still have the provincials as normal, but AI qualifiers now dont start until after provincial finals instead of first round. In fact, the current format gives more chance of weaker teams getting through to latter stages through pure chance in the draw alone. It looks all radical, but it isnt really.
Wobblers proposal gives MORE emphasis on actual results throughout the year. However Wobbler probably doesnt give enough credit to teams who are in higher divisions, e.g. Down got promoted this year and there is a fair chance that they will struggle BIG time next year in Div 1. They may have thought twice about getting promoted if Wobblers proposals were in place as if they stayed in Div 2, they would prob qualify for All Ireland playoffs this year and next, but very possibly not do if they went into Div 1 next year.
Quote from: 5 Sams on June 09, 2015, 04:22:43 PM
Quote from: BluestackBoy on June 09, 2015, 04:17:16 PM
McGuinness's column is the most read article on the Irish Times website today.
Suck that up Fintan O'Toole. The GAA barbarians are at the gates!!!
Darragh's will be the most popular one tomorrow as usual.
Sad times at the IT.
George Hook won't be impressed.
Quote from: Down Follower on June 09, 2015, 05:05:54 PM
Looking at Jims proposals, what is he really doing. Basically everything (almost) stays the same except the first few rounds of qualifiers disappear. We still have the league as normal, we still have the provincials as normal, but AI qualifiers now dont start until after provincial finals instead of first round. In fact, the current format gives more chance of weaker teams getting through to latter stages through pure chance in the draw alone. It looks all radical, but it isnt really.
Wobblers proposal gives MORE emphasis on actual results throughout the year. However Wobbler probably doesnt give enough credit to teams who are in higher divisions, e.g. Down got promoted this year and there is a fair chance that they will struggle BIG time next year in Div 1. They may have thought twice about getting promoted if Wobblers proposals were in place as if they stayed in Div 2, they would prob qualify for All Ireland playoffs this year and next, but very possibly not do if they went into Div 1 next year.
There might be something in what you're saying DF. But I'd like to think that if any player busts his balls to get good enough to play at a higher level, then he's not going to deliberately stay at a lower level. I spent most of my footballing life involved in a club that was nearly good enough for the top flight and can assure you that when we'd a sniff of a chance to go up, next year was never the concern, it was always about promotion.
There's no doubt that winning 4 games in D2 is an easier proposition than winning 3 in D1. But I know which challenge I'd prefer to face (and I've nowhere near the drive of a top class player).
Quote from: INDIANA on June 09, 2015, 12:21:34 PM
Quote from: highorlow on June 09, 2015, 12:14:42 PM
QuoteSo, what's the problem?
1 - The same top 8 teams each year in the QF's and no sign of that changing anytime soon.
2 - Dublin always playing at home
3 - Attendances down
4 - No 'spice' to the championship until August
5 - League is a complete and utter waste of time
6 - No atmosphere at matchs
7 - 'Weaker' teams only getting 2 outings per year yet the commitment on these counties to training etc is a lot higher in the modern era
8 - Rugby is slowly strengthening nationwide
9 - Soccer is slowly strengthening nationwide
10 - Club fixtures are all over the shop and lack consistency nationwide
That's 10 problems / issues that I perceive are present.
Most of those problems don't exist . Numbers 8 and 9 in particular . 3 and 5 are fanciful. Plus have you seen what teams make the last 8 of the champions league every year? Evidently not
Number Three is not fanciful. The average attendance for a championship football match has dropped by 10,000 in ten years. It's a myth that attendances aren't suffering. A complete and utter myth.
The Wobbler...
IF your system came in in the morning, the only weakness I see with it is that sixteen teams would have no championship action after losing a game. We might be back to the day of a championship season being over after a game. I know the league games would be more intense with this system, but you want to be playing football in the summer month.
How would it be if the sixteen teams that don't qualify for the main championship play in a second tier championship, with a few points available for next season? Something small...two points for winning the competition, one for runners-up, half a point for semi-finalists?
Quote from: Darby on June 09, 2015, 07:03:52 PM
The Wobbler...
IF your system came in in the morning, the only weakness I see with it is that sixteen teams would have no championship action after losing a game. We might be back to the day of a championship season being over after a game. I know the league games would be more intense with this system, but you want to be playing football in the summer month.
How would it be if the sixteen teams that don't qualify for the main championship play in a second tier championship, with a few points available for next season? Something small...two points for winning the competition, one for runners-up, half a point for semi-finalists?
I don't think a team should be rewarded for success in a previous year. It also recreates the problem of 16 club championships still being delayed, which is what this system is designed partly to alleviate.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 09, 2015, 12:03:44 PM
Well if someone is going to pick up my system and run with it, then I'd be happy that it's Jimmy.
In fairness he's caught the jist of what I'd like to see i.e. maintaining the same competitions, but ensuring that every game is made meaningful by placing the best teams in the AI Championship based on their form of that season.
While at first glance his system looks easier to calculate as there's no multipliers, I reckon it would actually cause more confusion as 90% of AI champions and provincial champions will also be in the top 12 league positions. So we'd end up in a scenario where some people would want beaten provincial finalists to take the last 4 slots, and other people would want those slots returned to league form. And then we'd have scenarios where all beaten provincial finalists are also in the top 12, and then do the spots go to semi-finalists, or back to the league? Obviously all this can be drawn up and agreed in advance, but with that many clauses it's always going to cause detrimental opinion and a load of teams feeling hard done by.
I still also would argue strongly against any "B" Championship. While Jimmy's theory of playing the games as curtain-raisers is well founded, my genuine belief is that all a B Championship does is increase the costs of running a county team, while forcing players to play for something the majority of them don't want to win. Meanwhile, across Ireland, the clubs are fuming that their best players are being withheld for a piss pot competition. Let's put club football back on the pedestal it deserves, which means no "B" county football.
The problem i have with your suggestion is that for 16 teams, their season is over at end of May. There are also too many potential unfair situations. Eg, Roscommon could loose all Div 1 games next year but win connaught by playing 2 games and dont make the top 16 while Derry could loose all their Div. 2 games but win Ulster by winning 3 games but do qualify. Some teams could also end up playing meaningless league games after they are knocked out of their province. For allot of counties, this is no real difference to the pre-qualifier structure. The best players in these counties will just head of to the US for the summer and their county will never improve. We should be trying to help these teams by giving them more competitive games and have them playing county football well into July, not reducing the number of games and telling them to piss off if they aren't good enough . The current structure, which ultimately isn't that different to your idea in terms of games played is not helping weaker teams. However, we firstly need to address the imbalance of funding available to county teams to achieve anything that is going to make a real difference.
We could win all our Division 1 games too you know.
As mentioned earlier on this thread Rodman, there will never be a perfect system if any form of knockout competiton is involved: there are always upsurges in form or statistical anomalies in every knockout competition.
People who believe there is a holy grail solution that can overcome this fact are living in cuckoo land. Once chance is involved, chance will take his seat.
Regarding you scenarios below, I'll repeat til I die that if a team loses 7/7 league games then they don't deserve to qualify. Looking around to see if someone else has qualified who was nearly as bad shouldn't come into it: in this case they've dug their own grave. There was no conspiracy against them, they just lost the overwhelming majority of their games.
Re your other point, personally I don't get what's wrong with seasons being over by May or June, so long as a full season was played. Under this system they'll have at worst one less game to play than they would user the current system. The key differences being that the season is compressed, and every game matters I.e. when they're knocking their bollocks out in January, February, March, they actually get to try their bollocks out.
At least this way, America for the summer is a clear and easy decision for our young players. I'm sort of getting from your comments that you'd prefer to guilt them out of enjoying their summers.
Some comparative figures, although we do have to bear in mind that if league form mattered this much and it was played in tandem with the provincials, then we should expect minor differences.
2015 to date
(anyone with an (F) can't gain any more points)
1 Cork (D1) 25
2 Dublin (D1) 24.5
3 Monaghan (D1) 22
4 Down (D2) (F) 20
5 Roscommon (D2) 20
6 Donegal (D1) 19.5
7 Meath (D2) 18
8 Galway (D2) 18
9 Mayo (D1) 17.5
10 Kerry (D1) 17.5
11 Fermanagh (D3) 16.5
12 Armagh (D3) 16.5
13 Cavan (D2) (F) 14
14 Tipperary (D3) 14
15 Longford (D4) (F) 13
16 Tyrone (D1) (F) 12.5
17 Clare (D3) 11
18 Offaly (D4) (F) 11
19 Laois (D2) 10
20 Derry (D1) 9.5
21 Sligo (D3) 9
22 Limerick (D3) (F) 9
23 Antrim (D4) (F) 9
24 Westmeath (D2) 8
25 Kildare (D2) 8
26 Leitrim(D4) (F) 8
27 Louth (D3) (F) 6
28 Wexford (D3) 6
29 Carlow (D4) (F) 6
30 Waterford (D4) (F) 3
31 Wicklow (D4) 3
32 London (D4) 3
- - -
So Tyrone would be perched on a precarious edge (as they should be, they've had a poor season).
Should Derry beat either Armagh/Donegal in the Ulster semi, Tyrone would have the summer off.
The other permutations to take them out would involve Clare beating Cork (unlikely), Sligo beating Rossies (less unlikely, but unlikely), Laois or Kildare beating Dublin (no chance).
I'm guessing it'll be Tyrone into the last 16 to face Dublin, and if not it'll be another D1 team that puts them to the sword.
Again it's only one season's data, but the make up of 6-7 D1 teams, 4-5 D2 teams, 2-3 D3 teams and 1-2 D4 teams seems likely each year.
See this is where I have the problem. Derry, who are a better team than many of those who qualify, are currently excluded, purely because they are a better team and were playing at a high level of competition. It just doesnt make sense. Why get promoted at all if it is just going to penalise you?
It is my one fundamental problem with your system Wobbler. I havent come round yet to your way of thinking of if its based purely on form in the current year. I suspect others will have this problem too. Is there anything you can do to convince me otherwise!!
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2015, 12:39:42 PM
Some comparative figures, although we do have to bear in mind that if league form mattered this much and it was played in tandem with the provincials, then we should expect minor differences.
2015 to date
(anyone with an (F) can't gain any more points)
1 Cork (D1) 25
2 Dublin (D1) 24.5
3 Monaghan (D1) 22
4 Down (D2) (F) 20
5 Roscommon (D2) 20
6 Donegal (D1) 19.5
7 Meath (D2) 18
8 Galway (D2) 18
9 Mayo (D1) 17.5
10 Kerry (D1) 17.5
11 Fermanagh (D3) 16.5
12 Armagh (D3) 16.5
13 Cavan (D2) (F) 14
14 Tipperary (D3) 14
15 Longford (D4) (F) 13
16 Tyrone (D1) (F) 12.5
17 Clare (D3) 11
18 Offaly (D4) (F) 11
19 Laois (D2) 10
20 Derry (D1) 9.5
21 Sligo (D3) 9
22 Limerick (D3) (F) 9
23 Antrim (D4) (F) 9
24 Westmeath (D2) 8
25 Kildare (D2) 8
26 Leitrim(D4) (F) 8
27 Louth (D3) (F) 6
28 Wexford (D3) 6
29 Carlow (D4) (F) 6
30 Waterford (D4) (F) 3
31 Wicklow (D4) 3
32 London (D4) 3
- - -
So Tyrone would be perched on a precarious edge (as they should be, they've had a poor season).
Should Derry beat either Armagh/Donegal in the Ulster semi, Tyrone would have the summer off.
The other permutations to take them out would involve Clare beating Cork (unlikely), Sligo beating Rossies (less unlikely, but unlikely), Laois or Kildare beating Dublin (no chance).
I'm guessing it'll be Tyrone into the last 16 to face Dublin, and if not it'll be another D1 team that puts them to the sword.
Again it's only one season's data, but the make up of 6-7 D1 teams, 4-5 D2 teams, 2-3 D3 teams and 1-2 D4 teams seems likely each year.
Would this mean that a team in a scenario like Tyrone's they would be waiting in limbo so see if they are still in the championship or not? So from early May until mid June they are semi training with the thought that they may or may not still have a future in the championship? I'm not 100% comfortable with that scenario to be honest. In fact, Tyrone's form hasn't really been that bad - avoiding defeat to 3 of the 4 previous AI finalists in the league and drawing the other semi finalist away in the prelim round has created a bit of anomaly in the system.
A SF win for Derry would put them into the last 16 stage.
With this system, there'll always be teams in the middle (say positions 13-20) where there will be very little between them.
You could weight the league more in favour of the D1 & D2 teams but then you end up all but excluding teams who are in D3 & D4.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 10, 2015, 02:47:22 PM
Would this mean that a team in a scenario like Tyrone's they would be waiting in limbo so see if they are still in the championship or not? So from early May until mid June they are semi training with the thought that they may or may not still have a future in the championship? I'm not 100% comfortable with that scenario to be honest. In fact, Tyrone's form hasn't really been that bad - avoiding defeat to 3 of the 4 previous AI finalists in the league and drawing the other semi finalist away in the prelim round has created a bit of anomaly in the system.
I'd imagine that the season could be structured in such a way that you wouldn't have that situation
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2015, 02:48:44 PM
A SF win for Derry would put them into the last 16 stage.
With this system, there'll always be teams in the middle (say positions 13-20) where there will be very little between them.
You could weight the league more in favour of the D1 & D2 teams but then you end up all but excluding teams who are in D3 & D4.
I think the best option would be to revert to the 1A 1B 2A 2B league system. If Tyrone or Derry were bottom of 1A or 1B they would have no complaints. The current 1-4 system would always be unfair to the teams finishing positions 7&8 in division 1.
Tyrone / Derry could be ranked as somewhere in 7-10th best team in league this year (7&8 in 1A/1B would equal a rank of 14-20).
To me, any structure that involves multipliers and mathematical formulas is a non-runner straight away.
Either leave it unchanged or put it into a round robin structure with A and B All-Irelands (which will never happen because the provincial councils won't let it and a stand alone provincial series will just wither out).
One thing sports fans like is certainty - a knock out or league structure. Trying to incorporate structures with formula and based on form is just silly in my book.
My long standing bug bear about the whole thing is the time it takes to play the Championship. Hard to get overly excited these days when your county plays now and then doesn't see action again for weeks. Have them playing every other week at best and make it the big event it should be.
I Agree about the formula and multipliers needing applied Bingo, I cant see that ever really being accepted.
I think if we had a similar system to what has been proposed, but simplify it, that we go back to 3 divisions, with relegation and promotion, with the top 16 teams by their league ranking qualify for the 'All Ireland last 16'.
This would leave all of div 1 qualifying (giving an incentive to stay in div 1 or try and gain promotion to it in order to guarantee playing in the top tier competition every year.
Div 2 would be very competitive with every team trying to get into the top half to qualify.
Div 3 would be unable to qualify for thay years competition, but would have the aim of gaining promotion to div two, in order to give them a chance of qualifying the following year.
I know people will say, that its unfair that some counties cant win the AI if they are in div 3, but can they really anyway? what they do have isa realistic route for progression and an aim for the season, to gain promotion to div 2. and theya re able to compete in their provincial championship.
Then the next year they are in with a shout of getting to the 'top table'.
Having a Top 16 competion leaves 8 very marketable games, and something that every palyer will aim to try and get into, the 4 qtr finals, 2 , semis, and the final. So thats 4 rounds of games that the GAA can really promote as the blue ribbon of Gaelic football, rather tahn the drawn out seaosn we have at the moement.
I would play each provincial championship as a stand alone knockout competiton.
If we wanted to somehow tie it to the AI series, progression in the provincial championship could help your seeding score for the last 16, giving you a potentially easier draw, but i think i would prefer to let it run on its own merits and let teams aim to win their own province as a prize in itself.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 10, 2015, 03:51:18 PM
I Agree about the formula and multipliers needing applied Bingo, I cant see that ever really being accepted.
I think if we had a similar system to what has been proposed, but simplify it, that we go back to 3 divisions, with relegation and promotion, with the top 16 teams by their league ranking qualify for the 'All Ireland last 16'.
This would leave all of div 1 qualifying (giving an incentive to stay in div 1 or try and gain promotion to it in order to guarantee playing in the top tier competition every year.
Div 2 would be very competitive with every team trying to get into the top half to qualify.
Div 3 would be unable to qualify for thay years competition, but would have the aim of gaining promotion to div two, in order to give them a chance of qualifying the following year.
I know people will say, that its unfair that some counties cant win the AI if they are in div 3, but can they really anyway? what they do have isa realistic route for progression and an aim for the season, to gain promotion to div 2. and theya re able to compete in their provincial championship.
Then the next year they are in with a shout of getting to the 'top table'.
Having a Top 16 competion leaves 8 very marketable games, and something that every palyer will aim to try and get into, the 4 qtr finals, 2 , semis, and the final. So thats 4 rounds of games that the GAA can really promote as the blue ribbon of Gaelic football, rather tahn the drawn out seaosn we have at the moement.
I would play each provincial championship as a stand alone knockout competiton.
If we wanted to somehow tie it to the AI series, progression in the provincial championship could help your seeding score for the last 16, giving you a potentially easier draw, but i think i would prefer to let it run on its own merits and let teams aim to win their own province as a prize in itself.
That leaves a lot of games in D1 in particular as being meaningless, once you're safe from relegation, you can kick back
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 10, 2015, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on June 10, 2015, 03:51:18 PM
I Agree about the formula and multipliers needing applied Bingo, I cant see that ever really being accepted.
I think if we had a similar system to what has been proposed, but simplify it, that we go back to 3 divisions, with relegation and promotion, with the top 16 teams by their league ranking qualify for the 'All Ireland last 16'.
This would leave all of div 1 qualifying (giving an incentive to stay in div 1 or try and gain promotion to it in order to guarantee playing in the top tier competition every year.
Div 2 would be very competitive with every team trying to get into the top half to qualify.
Div 3 would be unable to qualify for thay years competition, but would have the aim of gaining promotion to div two, in order to give them a chance of qualifying the following year.
I know people will say, that its unfair that some counties cant win the AI if they are in div 3, but can they really anyway? what they do have isa realistic route for progression and an aim for the season, to gain promotion to div 2. and theya re able to compete in their provincial championship.
Then the next year they are in with a shout of getting to the 'top table'.
Having a Top 16 competion leaves 8 very marketable games, and something that every palyer will aim to try and get into, the 4 qtr finals, 2 , semis, and the final. So thats 4 rounds of games that the GAA can really promote as the blue ribbon of Gaelic football, rather tahn the drawn out seaosn we have at the moement.
I would play each provincial championship as a stand alone knockout competiton.
If we wanted to somehow tie it to the AI series, progression in the provincial championship could help your seeding score for the last 16, giving you a potentially easier draw, but i think i would prefer to let it run on its own merits and let teams aim to win their own province as a prize in itself.
That leaves a lot of games in D1 in particular as being meaningless, once you're safe from relegation, you can kick back
Why would it be any more meaningless than the current league setup?
This year we had pretty much every team with something to play for going into the final rounds, either avoiding relegation or try to make the playoffs.
Granted in a 3 division set up that will leave 2 extra teams in the divsion, but i dont see their being that many dead rubber games.
If that is a real concern, perhaps the championship draw can be ceeded depending on league position?
It wouldn't be any more meaningless than the current setup but that's not saying a whole pile - there was something to play for in the Mayo v Donegal game (a SF spot) but we weren't too upset with not making the semi finals. And the semi-finals are a complete joke, no intensity at all. The less said about the final, the better.
Teams at the bottom end of D3 would also have a lot of pointless games, once you've lost 2 games you'd have no chance of promotion and nothing to play for.
Quote from: Down Follower on June 10, 2015, 02:26:29 PM
See this is where I have the problem. Derry, who are a better team than many of those who qualify, are currently excluded, purely because they are a better team and were playing at a high level of competition. It just doesnt make sense. Why get promoted at all if it is just going to penalise you?
It is my one fundamental problem with your system Wobbler. I havent come round yet to your way of thinking of if its based purely on form in the current year. I suspect others will have this problem too. Is there anything you can do to convince me otherwise!!
Use 2 season's worth of data to find the top 16. That way a team that gets relegated from the top flight can still call on last year's decent results from the top flight, or from their promotion year from the second. So a team still has incentive to win promotion, and doesn't get punished for being not-quite-good-enough for the top flight.
Bingo is not going to be happy having to use his calculator ;D
For me, that would be getting too complicated TBH
Quote from: Down Follower on June 10, 2015, 02:26:29 PM
See this is where I have the problem. Derry, who are a better team than many of those who qualify, are currently excluded, purely because they are a better team and were playing at a high level of competition. It just doesnt make sense. Why get promoted at all if it is just going to penalise you?
It is my one fundamental problem with your system Wobbler. I havent come round yet to your way of thinking of if its based purely on form in the current year. I suspect others will have this problem too. Is there anything you can do to convince me otherwise!!
I guess this is where it's going to be difficult to align thinking.
Derry of 2014 would have been guaranteed an AI spot and a pretty high seeding. Derry of 2015 would be left to rely on a strong provincial showing because of their league displays. D1 didn't get more difficult over the course of that year, Derry simply dipped as a team.
Is the purpose of a competition to ensure that potential isn't excluded ahead of performance? I don't think so. I mean how long do we wait for them to show their true colours? Do we keep giving them chances until they finally take one? Or can we not simply draw a line under it and say "it's not your season... See you next year"?
At the other end, Fermanagh of 2014 weren't good enough for championship football, but a year later with a good season they've earned a spot. The key is they earned it. They put a run of form together, albeit in a lower league, to suggest they might be championship worthy.
---
As mentioned before, the only way to ensure that the best 16 team make it, is to handpick it. Apart from that, chance will play a part. The system of devised here isn't perfect, but it does remove a lot of chance. Play well over the course of a season and chance will inevitably fall in your favour.
Actually there is another way to ensure the top 16 teams make it, and that's to exclude the bottom 16 from having any chance of competing. That would mean divisions 1 and 2 go through, the rest do not. Apart from being cruel on smaller counties, then the only thing that would matter in a league season would be to not get related from D2. Which would make many league games absolutely pointless.
----
Don't get the 1A and 1B thing for the same reason. It strikes me as people trying to make sure nobody gets offended. The only outcome from such thinking is apathy.
As for using two seasons of data, we already have that, plus some. It's called league form. Teams that played well the previous season will be in higher leagues with higher multipliers. Teams that played poorly will be relegated.
Any contortions beyond that simply add a layer of complexity for no reward, and would produce mad anomalies like Westmeath getting promoted, going 0/7 and still enjoying a kickback from not having won a game for a year.
In all the various alternative GAA season structure's that keep the provincial championship, how do people reckon the provincial championship will fare?
Loads of people saying it's vital to keep them, but I can't help feel that long-term you're going to have the same situation you have now, where for the serious contenders winning them is close to pointless and they only matter when one of the also-rans upsets the apple cart. Basically the worse a team is the more the provincial championships matter to them.
They're never going to have the importance they had prior to the qualifers and trying to regain that glamour is always going to be a losing battle.
What happens to teams that are automatically given a place in a provincial semi-final as in Munster or that other place in the West? Do they get 2 points given to them anyway for a fictional quarter final game?
Kerry draw 4 and lose 3 D1 games (10 pts) but lose to Cork in the Munster semi. Clare win 5 and lose 2 D4 games (5pts) and beat Waterford and Tipp to make the Munster final (+6=11 pts).
Yet you know Kerry have the footballers that might well lift Sam whilst Clare will get obliterated. I can't think of another system that punishes good teams and rewards poor sides in sport. Maybe horse racing.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2015, 07:48:52 AM
As mentioned earlier on this thread Rodman, there will never be a perfect system if any form of knockout competiton is involved: there are always upsurges in form or statistical anomalies in every knockout competition.
People who believe there is a holy grail solution that can overcome this fact are living in cuckoo land. Once chance is involved, chance will take his seat.
Regarding you scenarios below, I'll repeat til I die that if a team loses 7/7 league games then they don't deserve to qualify. Looking around to see if someone else has qualified who was nearly as bad shouldn't come into it: in this case they've dug their own grave. There was no conspiracy against them, they just lost the overwhelming majority of their games.
Re your other point, personally I don't get what's wrong with seasons being over by May or June, so long as a full season was played. Under this system they'll have at worst one less game to play than they would user the current system. The key differences being that the season is compressed, and every game matters I.e. when they're knocking their bollocks out in January, February, March, they actually get to try their bollocks out.
At least this way, America for the summer is a clear and easy decision for our young players. I'm sort of getting from your comments that you'd prefer to guilt them out of enjoying their summers.
On my example of Derry and Roscommon, i'm not disputing the fact that if you loose 7 league games then you don't deserve to be in the last 16, must I was maid this point to show that 2 teams could loose all league games, both win their province but only 1 gets into the last 16 - thats hardly fair is it?
I actually kind of like your idea of how to seed teams as it makes the league more relevant but to discard 16 teams at the end of May is a backward step. They play their league games, get beat in the championship in May and that's it - just like 20 years ago. They will never improve if this continues. If we are going to have a change, have a proper change, not some bastardised version of what we already have. They need more games in the summer months. I'm sure both fans and players would want more games. Look at last weekend, in the middle if championship season and there was 1 game on Sunday.
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2015, 07:38:17 PM
What happens to teams that are automatically given a place in a provincial semi-final as in Munster or that other place in the West? Do they get 2 points given to them anyway for a fictional quarter final game?
Kerry draw 4 and lose 3 D1 games (10 pts) but lose to Cork in the Munster semi. Clare win 5 and lose 2 D4 games (5pts) and beat Waterford and Tipp to make the Munster final (+6=11 pts).
Yet you know Kerry have the footballers that might well lift Sam whilst Clare will get obliterated. I can't think of another system that punishes good teams and rewards poor sides in sport. Maybe horse racing.
This is all valid, but with the new system Kerry mightn't send out their C team in the League as the main squad is on a trip. They would have to take it seriously, which is the whole point.
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2015, 07:38:17 PM
What happens to teams that are automatically given a place in a provincial semi-final as in Munster or that other place in the West? Do they get 2 points given to them anyway for a fictional quarter final game?
Kerry draw 4 and lose 3 D1 games (10 pts) but lose to Cork in the Munster semi. Clare win 5 and lose 2 D4 games (5pts) and beat Waterford and Tipp to make the Munster final (+6=11 pts).
Yet you know Kerry have the footballers that might well lift Sam whilst Clare will get obliterated. I can't think of another system that punishes good teams and rewards poor sides in sport. Maybe horse racing.
In fairness if i was analysing a system i would do the same as you O'Neill, which is look for any flaws no matter how small before giving approval.
To answer your questions, no there wouldn't be any score for a fictional quarter final. Points are earned. Yep it means that they can't pick up the full 12 pts for a provincial, but the trade off is its a tad easier to pick up 4 or 10.
Re your scenario above, I doubt very much that Clare would ever qualify with 11 pts. But even if they did it wouldn't be punishing Kerry. Kerry put themselves out of the equation with poor league form (4 pts is generally relegation form). Who takes their place shouldn't be of any concern, for you can guarantee that relatively speaking the've had a more successful season than Kerry.
As mentioned above, do you really want to create a system that keeps giving D1 chances? If they've had a dismal league and a dismal provincial, you honestly still think we should find ways to keep them in the competition? What if they're given a bonus spot in the AI and then dublin destroy them in the last 16? Would you accept at this point that it's just not Kerry's year? Or do we find someone else to play, and so on, and so on?
Quote from: Rodman on June 10, 2015, 08:35:59 PM
Look at last weekend, in the middle if championship season and there was 1 football game on Sunday.
Fixed that for you.
Th'oul game with the shticks hasn't gone away ya know.
Rodman I'll happily concede that for this system to work it'll need a few changes in perception.
One of those would surround the concept that not playing in summer would be unfair on players.
This concept arose because in the 90s teams started training for the championship at Christmas time (often sticking two fingers up to the league during the process). So when a team got knocked out in round one, it was very cruel. This is where the back door came from, but the problem that most people didn't foresee is that the back door is an utter waste of time for most counties - for the simple reason that it also gives the better teams a second chance, therefore making it impossible for weaker teams to progress too far. And worse than this, the stay of execution is often dragged out for months.
If though the league was genuinely competitive, then those players who knock their bollocks out would get 8 genuinely competitive games per season at a minimum. So a short summer surely cannot be seen as such a problem for player development?
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 10, 2015, 02:47:22 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 10, 2015, 12:39:42 PM
Some comparative figures, although we do have to bear in mind that if league form mattered this much and it was played in tandem with the provincials, then we should expect minor differences.
2015 to date
(anyone with an (F) can't gain any more points)
1 Cork (D1) 25
2 Dublin (D1) 24.5
3 Monaghan (D1) 22
4 Down (D2) (F) 20
5 Roscommon (D2) 20
6 Donegal (D1) 19.5
7 Meath (D2) 18
8 Galway (D2) 18
9 Mayo (D1) 17.5
10 Kerry (D1) 17.5
11 Fermanagh (D3) 16.5
12 Armagh (D3) 16.5
13 Cavan (D2) (F) 14
14 Tipperary (D3) 14
15 Longford (D4) (F) 13
16 Tyrone (D1) (F) 12.5
17 Clare (D3) 11
18 Offaly (D4) (F) 11
19 Laois (D2) 10
20 Derry (D1) 9.5
21 Sligo (D3) 9
22 Limerick (D3) (F) 9
23 Antrim (D4) (F) 9
24 Westmeath (D2) 8
25 Kildare (D2) 8
26 Leitrim(D4) (F) 8
27 Louth (D3) (F) 6
28 Wexford (D3) 6
29 Carlow (D4) (F) 6
30 Waterford (D4) (F) 3
31 Wicklow (D4) 3
32 London (D4) 3
- - -
So Tyrone would be perched on a precarious edge (as they should be, they've had a poor season).
Should Derry beat either Armagh/Donegal in the Ulster semi, Tyrone would have the summer off.
The other permutations to take them out would involve Clare beating Cork (unlikely), Sligo beating Rossies (less unlikely, but unlikely), Laois or Kildare beating Dublin (no chance).
I'm guessing it'll be Tyrone into the last 16 to face Dublin, and if not it'll be another D1 team that puts them to the sword.
Again it's only one season's data, but the make up of 6-7 D1 teams, 4-5 D2 teams, 2-3 D3 teams and 1-2 D4 teams seems likely each year.
Would this mean that a team in a scenario like Tyrone's they would be waiting in limbo so see if they are still in the championship or not? So from early May until mid June they are semi training with the thought that they may or may not still have a future in the championship? I'm not 100% comfortable with that scenario to be honest. In fact, Tyrone's form hasn't really been that bad - avoiding defeat to 3 of the 4 previous AI finalists in the league and drawing the other semi finalist away in the prelim round has created a bit of anomaly in the system.
It's a decent point you make. I personally think that the provincial championships would have to be pretty well seeded. It would make no sense having Tyrone punished after drawing the best team in Ulster, when they would have beaten most others. Fermanagh v Antrim would be the preliminary match then. Not entirely seeded, but just have Tyrone, Derry, Monaghan and Donegal on one side.
Surely Derry's magnificent win over a Down team, fourth in wobbler's rankings, exposes the fatal flaws in a well-meaning, but limited, naive attempt at a solution.
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2015, 08:44:52 PM
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2015, 07:38:17 PM
What happens to teams that are automatically given a place in a provincial semi-final as in Munster or that other place in the West? Do they get 2 points given to them anyway for a fictional quarter final game?
Kerry draw 4 and lose 3 D1 games (10 pts) but lose to Cork in the Munster semi. Clare win 5 and lose 2 D4 games (5pts) and beat Waterford and Tipp to make the Munster final (+6=11 pts).
Yet you know Kerry have the footballers that might well lift Sam whilst Clare will get obliterated. I can't think of another system that punishes good teams and rewards poor sides in sport. Maybe horse racing.
This is all valid, but with the new system Kerry mightn't send out their C team in the League as the main squad is on a trip. They would have to take it seriously, which is the whole point.
What? You want the NFL now to place further demands on inter-county players on a par with the SFC. At least the serious training doesn't kick in til late March. Under this system, because of the importance of the NFL points system now it'll be full pelt from the start of the league, placing ridiculous demands on players and probably decimating the club scene. God help the players with St Patrick's Day involvement with their clubs. At least at the minute the league can be used for blooding players and trying out various tactics and systems.
What we should be looking at is preserving the prestige of playing for your club, not a 10-15 game inter-county season at Championship pace.
Condensing the SFC should be a priority. None of this 4-5 week wait for a game.
Quote from: ONeill on June 11, 2015, 12:16:48 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2015, 08:44:52 PM
Quote from: ONeill on June 10, 2015, 07:38:17 PM
What happens to teams that are automatically given a place in a provincial semi-final as in Munster or that other place in the West? Do they get 2 points given to them anyway for a fictional quarter final game?
Kerry draw 4 and lose 3 D1 games (10 pts) but lose to Cork in the Munster semi. Clare win 5 and lose 2 D4 games (5pts) and beat Waterford and Tipp to make the Munster final (+6=11 pts).
Yet you know Kerry have the footballers that might well lift Sam whilst Clare will get obliterated. I can't think of another system that punishes good teams and rewards poor sides in sport. Maybe horse racing.
This is all valid, but with the new system Kerry mightn't send out their C team in the League as the main squad is on a trip. They would have to take it seriously, which is the whole point.
What? You want the NFL now to place further demands on inter-county players on a par with the SFC. At least the serious training doesn't kick in til late March. Under this system, because of the importance of the NFL points system now it'll be full pelt from the start of the league, placing ridiculous demands on players and probably decimating the club scene. God help the players with St Patrick's Day involvement with their clubs. At least at the minute the league can be used for blooding players and trying out various tactics and systems.
What we should be looking at is preserving the prestige of playing for your club, not a 10-15 game inter-county season at Championship pace.
Condensing the SFC should be a priority. None of this 4-5 week wait for a game.
Which March? ;D
A 10 - 15 game inter-county season isn't the problem. The problem is it takes 2 and a half months to play 5 games in Connacht. And that is just the Connacht Championship. Then there is the All-Ireland Club Championship series (for provincial winners) which routinely takes four months. The pace of the games isn't the problem, it is the pace of the schedule.
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
No wobbler, we cannot trust you. Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
Ditto any system that does not allow a champion to defend its crown.
Not to mention the team ranked 8th in the national league is not guaranteed a place in the top 16 a month later...I'm sorry but your ideas are definitely in the rejected bracket.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
That notion is only correct if you assume the primacy of the provincial championships over the league. That's certainly the current setup but not necessarily the fairest
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 11, 2015, 11:56:33 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
That notion is only correct if you assume the primacy of the provincial championships over the league. That's certainly the current setup but not necessarily the fairest
The difference between a league and a championship are obvious...
I'm becoming more and more inclined to like Jim McGuinness' idea. Basically those finishing in the top 16 places in the league (with positions kept for provincial winners) are seeded for the AI championship, though i would reserve the top 4 seed places for the provincial winners. So positions 1, 2, 3 and 4 decided by league position between the provincial champions. The B grade (call it what you want) championship would be between the bottom 16 seeds all played as double headers with the senior AI matches. Simple, straightforward and maintains the importance of the provincial championships.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
No wobbler, we cannot trust you. Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
Ditto any system that does not allow a champion to defend its crown.
Not to mention the team ranked 8th in the national league is not guaranteed a place in the top 16 a month later...I'm sorry but your ideas are definitely in the rejected bracket.
They get to defend it in at least eight games. That's up to six more than under the present system.
So in summary, replacing the championship with a league is the preferred option. Every team will have a load more games. The AI SFC will become the Half Ireland SFC. This will make for loads of more competitive exciting games, all of which will be won by less than a kick of a ball. It will of course also make it a near certainty that more teams will win the AI. Like Carlow. It will also condense the IC season! Crowds will be flocking to the games like never before. There won't be any negative tactics as entertainment becomes the priority of IC managers.
I like it!!
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 03:57:19 PM
So in summary, replacing the championship with a league is the preferred option. Every team will have a load more games. The AI SFC will become the Half Ireland SFC. This will make for loads of more competitive exciting games, all of which will be won by less than a kick of a ball. It will of course also make it a near certainty that more teams will win the AI. Like Carlow. It will also condense the IC season! Crowds will be flocking to the games like never before. There won't be any negative tactics as entertainment becomes the priority of IC managers.
I like it!!
You forgot the heatwave.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 03:57:19 PM
So in summary, replacing the championship with a league is the preferred option. Every team will have a load more games. The AI SFC will become the Half Ireland SFC. This will make for loads of more competitive exciting games, all of which will be won by less than a kick of a ball. It will of course also make it a near certainty that more teams will win the AI. Like Carlow. It will also condense the IC season! Crowds will be flocking to the games like never before. There won't be any negative tactics as entertainment becomes the priority of IC managers.
I like it!!
What's your preferred structure then?
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
No wobbler, we cannot trust you. Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
Ditto any system that does not allow a champion to defend its crown.
Not to mention the team ranked 8th in the national league is not guaranteed a place in the top 16 a month later...I'm sorry but your ideas are definitely in the rejected bracket.
I'd guess that to bridge the gap in our thinking you'd have to first accept that under this proposed system, the All Ireland Championship actually begins on 1 March when the first ball is thrown in, in the league competition. Everything is interlinked and therefore every game acts as an AI qualifier.
Whether you agree that's is a good step is a different thing.
But telling me that the system denies succesful teams from competing in the AI in inaccurate.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
No wobbler, we cannot trust you. Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
Ditto any system that does not allow a champion to defend its crown.
Not to mention the team ranked 8th in the national league is not guaranteed a place in the top 16 a month later...I'm sorry but your ideas are definitely in the rejected bracket.
I'd guess that to bridge the gap in our thinking you'd have to first accept that under this proposed system, the All Ireland Championship actually begins on 1 March when the first ball is thrown in, in the league competition. Everything is interlinked and therefore every game acts as an AI qualifier.
Whether you agree that's is a good step is a different thing.
But telling me that the system denies succesful teams from competing in the AI in inaccurate.
So you are suggesting what the Yanks call a "regular season" which determines what teams make the "playoffs". Which I suppose can be fair enough.
But you should not group the best teams together in what is called Division 1. The worst Division 1 team should not rank behind, say, the fourth Division 2 team. So how do we fix that?
Might be easier to have three balanced divisions of 11 teams. That's 10 games per team against good, middling and poor teams. Top 3 or even 4 from each division automatically make the playoffs. Quicker provincial championships is the key. Should Teams that make the provincial finals should get automatic entry? Whatever system, some teams will qualify under both routes, so how do we round out the top 16 if we need to?
Over to you.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 12, 2015, 07:39:49 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
No wobbler, we cannot trust you. Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
Ditto any system that does not allow a champion to defend its crown.
Not to mention the team ranked 8th in the national league is not guaranteed a place in the top 16 a month later...I'm sorry but your ideas are definitely in the rejected bracket.
I'd guess that to bridge the gap in our thinking you'd have to first accept that under this proposed system, the All Ireland Championship actually begins on 1 March when the first ball is thrown in, in the league competition. Everything is interlinked and therefore every game acts as an AI qualifier.
Whether you agree that's is a good step is a different thing.
But telling me that the system denies succesful teams from competing in the AI in inaccurate.
So you are suggesting what the Yanks call a "regular season" which determines what teams make the "playoffs". Which I suppose can be fair enough.
But you should not group the best teams together in what is called Division 1. The worst Division 1 team should not rank behind, say, the fourth Division 2 team. So how do we fix that?
Might be easier to have three balanced divisions of 11 teams. That's 10 games per team against good, middling and poor teams. Top 3 or even 4 from each division automatically make the playoffs. Quicker provincial championships is the key. Should Teams that make the provincial finals should get automatic entry? Whatever system, some teams will qualify under both routes, so how do we round out the top 16 if we need to?
Over to you.
Three things:
1. For the life of me I've no idea how someone would balance 3 divisions equally. This is why promotion and relegation are vital, they make selection an organic thing.
2. Personally I wouldn't pay in to watch Dublin vs Waterford in a league match, and I very much doubt that either sets of players or fans would treat the mismatch with anything but contempt. Regionalisation works in the USA because it's all tied back into their draft system and salary caps; no team should ever be far away from any other team. We don't have that luxury here and never will. So some form of tiering is an absolute necessity.
3. Actually I'd argue quite strongly that there's nothing between a bottom D1 team and a midtable D2 team. next year Down and Roscommon will probably be the bottom two in D1, and they're both somewhere between the 6th and 14th best counties in Ireland in that they can beat or be beaten by anyone in that cluster on any given day.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 12, 2015, 07:53:27 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 12, 2015, 07:39:49 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on June 11, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 11, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
Well if Wobbler's rankings are accurate then it's time to scrap this proposed system as it's a complete hames. Fermangh are right up there with Kerry and Mayo!!!
A D4 side ranked 5 places above a D1 side!!
Trust me, by the time the provincials are completed, this won't be the case.
No wobbler, we cannot trust you. Any scheme or system that does not guarantee a provincial winner a place in the All-Ireland championship is inherently flawed and must be rejected on that basis alone.
Ditto any system that does not allow a champion to defend its crown.
Not to mention the team ranked 8th in the national league is not guaranteed a place in the top 16 a month later...I'm sorry but your ideas are definitely in the rejected bracket.
I'd guess that to bridge the gap in our thinking you'd have to first accept that under this proposed system, the All Ireland Championship actually begins on 1 March when the first ball is thrown in, in the league competition. Everything is interlinked and therefore every game acts as an AI qualifier.
Whether you agree that's is a good step is a different thing.
But telling me that the system denies succesful teams from competing in the AI in inaccurate.
So you are suggesting what the Yanks call a "regular season" which determines what teams make the "playoffs". Which I suppose can be fair enough.
But you should not group the best teams together in what is called Division 1. The worst Division 1 team should not rank behind, say, the fourth Division 2 team. So how do we fix that?
Might be easier to have three balanced divisions of 11 teams. That's 10 games per team against good, middling and poor teams. Top 3 or even 4 from each division automatically make the playoffs. Quicker provincial championships is the key. Should Teams that make the provincial finals should get automatic entry? Whatever system, some teams will qualify under both routes, so how do we round out the top 16 if we need to?
Over to you.
Three things:
1. For the life of me I've no idea how someone would balance 3 divisions equally. This is why promotion and relegation are vital, they make selection an organic thing.
2. Personally I wouldn't pay in to watch Dublin vs Waterford in a league match, and I very much doubt that either sets of players or fans would treat the mismatch with anything but contempt. Regionalisation works in the USA because it's all tied back into their draft system and salary caps; no team should ever be far away from any other team. We don't have that luxury here and never will. So some form of tiering is an absolute necessity.
3. Actually I'd argue quite strongly that there's nothing between a bottom D1 team and a midtable D2 team. next year Down and Roscommon will probably be the bottom two in D1, and they're both somewhere between the 6th and 14th best counties in Ireland in that they can beat or be beaten by anyone in that cluster on any given day.
Fair enough on number 2. We agree on number 3, but you would exclude the div 1 team because they played better teams.
Sure why not have a true league then of 16 teams to determine the best team in the country, a la soccer throughout Europe? You could run a cup competition like them as well, but this would be considered vastly inferior to winning the league.
I suppose it comes down to quality control and timings.
A 16 team league where everyone is more-or-less guaranteed a Championship spot means a long series of dead rubbers. The incentive to finish in the top 3-4 and out of the bottom 3-4 would be gone for many team by the 11th or 12th series. so the league would (like it currently does) end as a damp squib except for a few small issues.
It's also a bloody long league season. It would take at least 4 months to get the league finished, and that's 4 months (prior to provincials and AI games) when clubs would have no chance off seeing their players.
By the way I reckon under my proposal there would still be some tactical losses, but they should be kept to a minimum. For example, in 2015 it looks likely that a D1 team (Tyrone or Derry) will be the 16th seed, while seeds 13-15 would be D3 and D4 teams. If the logistics people in Dublin/Mayo/Donegal could predict early enough that this as a likely scenario, it might be worth their while finishing 2nd or 3rd in D1, and get an easier draw in last 16. I guess though that if all league games in series 7 took place at the same time, it should alleviate some of these issues.
Would you keep promotion and relegation as it currently works?
If the league becomes a feeder competition for the championship, then the final 8 of the championship should be the teams in Div 1 the following spring. Right?
I have a suggestion for a system with some similarities to thewobbler's, but without calculations needed
The league determines the TOP 16 teams. (8 Div 1 teams, top 6 Div 2 teams & the 2 promoted from Div 3) These are then ranked 1-16 in order.
Only 7 rounds in league, no semi finals/finals, then provinicial championships then the All Ireland series.
16 Qualify for the All Ireland series (every team needs to win same amount of games in AI to win Sam)
The only way a BOTTOM 16 team can enter the AI series, is if they beat a top 16 in their provincial championship.
The top 16 from the league start the provincial championship as the entries to the AI, but they can be knocked out by a bottom 16 team.
First round in the provincial championship will see a top 16 team take on a bottom team if possible.
For example if Limerick were a bottom 16 team and Cork were seeded 1 from the league.
Then Limerick will need to beat Cork in first round of Munster. Winners of the game will go into AI as rank 1 team losers are out of Munster and AI.
First round of AI will have team ranked 1 v 16 .. 2 v 15 and so on. Further rounds will be open draw.
Incentive to do well in league to qualify for top 16.
Greater importance on early rounds provincial championships as it could be a knockout.
Stronger provinces are rewarded with more places in the AI.
Each county still has three titles to play for.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 12, 2015, 10:44:50 AM
I have a suggestion for a system with some similarities to thewobbler's, but without calculations needed
The league determines the TOP 16 teams. (8 Div 1 teams, top 6 Div 2 teams & the 2 promoted from Div 3) These are then ranked 1-16 in order.
Only 7 rounds in league, no semi finals/finals, then provinicial championships then the All Ireland series.
16 Qualify for the All Ireland series (every team needs to win same amount of games in AI to win Sam)
The only way a BOTTOM 16 team can enter the AI series, is if they beat a top 16 in their provincial championship.
The top 16 from the league start the provincial championship as the entries to the AI, but they can be knocked out by a bottom 16 team.
First round in the provincial championship will see a top 16 team take on a bottom team if possible.
For example if Limerick were a bottom 16 team and Cork were seeded 1 from the league.
Then Limerick will need to beat Cork in first round of Munster. Winners of the game will go into AI as rank 1 team losers are out of Munster and AI.
First round of AI will have team ranked 1 v 16 .. 2 v 15 and so on. Further rounds will be open draw.
Incentive to do well in league to qualify for top 16.
Greater importance on early rounds provincial championships as it could be a knockout.
Stronger provinces are rewarded with more places in the AI.
Each county still has three titles to play for.
Issue I spotted straight away. Monaghan beat Cavan in first round in Ulster. Both are in AI16 by virtue of their league seedings. Fermanagh (for arguments sake lets say they didnt get promoted from Div 3), beat Monaghan in semi finals. Who drops down - how far do you go back?
Quote from: Down Follower on June 12, 2015, 11:18:07 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on June 12, 2015, 10:44:50 AM
I have a suggestion for a system with some similarities to thewobbler's, but without calculations needed
The league determines the TOP 16 teams. (8 Div 1 teams, top 6 Div 2 teams & the 2 promoted from Div 3) These are then ranked 1-16 in order.
Only 7 rounds in league, no semi finals/finals, then provinicial championships then the All Ireland series.
16 Qualify for the All Ireland series (every team needs to win same amount of games in AI to win Sam)
The only way a BOTTOM 16 team can enter the AI series, is if they beat a top 16 in their provincial championship.
The top 16 from the league start the provincial championship as the entries to the AI, but they can be knocked out by a bottom 16 team.
First round in the provincial championship will see a top 16 team take on a bottom team if possible.
For example if Limerick were a bottom 16 team and Cork were seeded 1 from the league.
Then Limerick will need to beat Cork in first round of Munster. Winners of the game will go into AI as rank 1 team losers are out of Munster and AI.
First round of AI will have team ranked 1 v 16 .. 2 v 15 and so on. Further rounds will be open draw.
Incentive to do well in league to qualify for top 16.
Greater importance on early rounds provincial championships as it could be a knockout.
Stronger provinces are rewarded with more places in the AI.
Each county still has three titles to play for.
Issue I spotted straight away. Monaghan beat Cavan in first round in Ulster. Both are in AI16 by virtue of their league seedings. Fermanagh (for arguments sake lets say they didnt get promoted from Div 3), beat Monaghan in semi finals. Who drops down - how far do you go back?
That's why I added this line
First round in the provincial championship will see a top 16 team take on a bottom team if possible.If Fermanagh were a bottom 16 team, they would need to play a top 16 team in first round.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 11, 2015, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 11, 2015, 03:57:19 PM
So in summary, replacing the championship with a league is the preferred option. Every team will have a load more games. The AI SFC will become the Half Ireland SFC. This will make for loads of more competitive exciting games, all of which will be won by less than a kick of a ball. It will of course also make it a near certainty that more teams will win the AI. Like Carlow. It will also condense the IC season! Crowds will be flocking to the games like never before. There won't be any negative tactics as entertainment becomes the priority of IC managers.
I like it!!
What's your preferred structure then?
Not anything that will reduce the intensity of championship football more than the back door has already done. And that will allow all counties to participate in the AI SFC.
Not some ill-conceived nonsense that makes radical changes to a structure without any clear rationale about what the existing problems are. Or what all the consequences of such changes will be.
Not something that is driven by people who are continually jumping onto any available bandwagon that will give them airtime, and i'm including some prolific posters on this board.
Answer the question instead of running down everything and evreyone in sight. ;D
Well i thought I had answered.
IMO it is people who are constantly seeking change for change sake, and who never seem to acknowledge that the GAA is in quite a good place who are constantly running down our games. Not me. I merely criticise the critics!!
Sure I recognise there are problems in the Gaa but of late on here it just seems to a constant litany of abuse, new rules proposed to address some perceived ill after every game, without any real thought of what the outworkings of that might be. Like the black card was introduced off the back of a rant and subsequent media campaign by Joe Brolly. Lunacy.
From what I can see there is a media driven agenda to change the structure of the championship. The oft quoted champions league structure, or variations thereof, being mooted as feasible alternatives.
Well lets examine how has that worked out. IMO it has made the CL a bigger moneyspinner, more elitist, the group stages aren't worth watching and the qualifying teams are the exact same year after year, and the competitive edge of the competition has largely been eroded until the very latter stages.
Exactly what a championship is not.
The back door has already gone some way down the road to doing the same for gaelic football, I fear that going further down that road will only serve to exacerbate these problems.
You were asked what's your preferred structure.
With respect you've responded by running down the so called backdoor, the Champions League, media, posters here who suggest other systems......etc.
Are u disagreeing with any of the points I have made?
Quote from: Rossfan on June 12, 2015, 04:02:33 PM
You were asked what's your preferred structure.
With respect you've responded by running down the so called backdoor, the Champions League, media, posters here who suggest other systems......etc.
You may throw yours up again Rossfan. I've been championing it for a right while now and nobody is taking any notice of me. It has no back door nor Champion's League basis. Neither does it get rid of the provincials or stop teams having a chance of entering the race for Sam.
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 12, 2015, 04:22:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 12, 2015, 04:02:33 PM
You were asked what's your preferred structure.
With respect you've responded by running down the so called backdoor, the Champions League, media, posters here who suggest other systems......etc.
You may throw yours up again Rossfan. I've been championing it for a right while now and nobody is taking any notice of me. It has no back door nor Champion's League basis. Neither does it get rid of the provincials or stop teams having a chance of entering the race for Sam.
Well you say that i have run down this that and the other. yet you have, unsolicited by any person in any position of authority in the GAA as far as i can tell, gone to the considerable trouble of entirely revamping the format of the premier competition in the GAA. If that isn't the biggest criticism of our games and our association that it's possible to make then I don't know what is.
I can see zero rationale for such root and branch change. There is no recognition that such a change might even possibly have any detrimental outcomes. I seems that everything is shit at the minute but everything will be great if we get a radical change.
Airy fairy nonsense.
I'd suggest the one of the things about the proposal that opened this thread is that it's not a radical change. It's still the same 3 competitions, it's still more-or-less the same number of games for every team in Ireland. It's just tweaking the flow.
As I also said at the start of this thread, I despise change for the sake of change. There's nothing knee-jerk in it.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 12, 2015, 04:52:36 PM
I'd suggest the one of the things about the proposal that opened this thread is that it's not a radical change. It's still the same 3 competitions, it's still more-or-less the same number of games for every team in Ireland. It's just tweaking the flow.
As I also said at the start of this thread, I despise change for the sake of change. There's nothing knee-jerk in it.
You propose to link league performance to championship entry. You propose to restrict entry to an elite group of teams. And you think this is not radical change?
Do you forsee any possible negative issues with your proposed structures?
Of course there's negatives.
And even when no negatives exist people will invent them (take for example Wenger complaining about Chelsea's easier start to the season giving them a huge advantage, while Mourinho complains that the correlating tougher end to his season proving a huge disadvantage).
But the system was devised to answer a number of very real issues with the game. It would definitely reduce county team expenditure and would definitely free up the majority of county players for full club seasons. Nothing else is guaranteed.
I can't guarantee that Armagh won't want promotion to D1, or that Clare's first provincial title in a million years is joined by a simultaneous exit from the Championship due to their league form, or that 28 out of 28 D2 games won't end in a draw, meaning they all get through to the Championship without winning a game.
But I've a feeling that even if the odd bizarre thing happened, it would be a tremendous improvement on a league system that produces winners who do not celebrate, and a provincial system that utterly demoralises most counties in ireland.
This is a discussion forum and one doesn't need to be in authority in the GAA or need their permission to suggest alternative systems for the SFC.
Anyway the President spoke a few weeks ago about possibly changing it and asking Counties to submit proposals. He added that there seemed an appetite to have a competition for weaker Counties but still allow them a way to the main Championship and that there is no appetite to scrap the Provincials.
Poor Oul Wobbler has a perfect right to put up a proposal on GAA board and everyone has a right to agree/disagree as they see fit.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 12, 2015, 04:48:38 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 12, 2015, 04:22:07 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 12, 2015, 04:02:33 PM
You were asked what's your preferred structure.
With respect you've responded by running down the so called backdoor, the Champions League, media, posters here who suggest other systems......etc.
You may throw yours up again Rossfan. I've been championing it for a right while now and nobody is taking any notice of me. It has no back door nor Champion's League basis. Neither does it get rid of the provincials or stop teams having a chance of entering the race for Sam.
Well you say that i have run down this that and the other. yet you have, unsolicited by any person in any position of authority in the GAA as far as i can tell, gone to the considerable trouble of entirely revamping the format of the premier competition in the GAA. If that isn't the biggest criticism of our games and our association that it's possible to make then I don't know what is.
I can see zero rationale for such root and branch change. There is no recognition that such a change might even possibly have any detrimental outcomes. I seems that everything is shit at the minute but everything will be great if we get a radical change.
Airy fairy nonsense.
Forgive me for being a bit slow here, but what exactly is your preferred structure though? I know what you think it shouldn't be, but what is the exact structure that you feel would be the best way forward? I'm gathering from your posts that you are happy with the way things are at present? Is that correct?
I for one, am enjoying the debate on the new structures. We don't need to be in some form of sub committee to put forward new ideas. The championship structure as it stands is less than satisfactory. As Wobbler said we have a league structure that most teams care little for and a championship that takes an age to run a few games were some teams get clear and relatively easy routes to a quarter final while others must battle through minefields. The system has some teams going over a month between games and others are lambs to the slaughter. I understand no system is going to be perfect but it certainly is worth discussing a change.
So what exactly are we fixing? What needs most attention is the schedule.
All provincial championships should over by June 30.
The 8 provincial finalists enter the All-Ireland championship, plus the next 8 based on league position. Teams seeded based on league position. Higher seed has home venue for first round. All games in Croke Park after that.
If those outside top 16 want a summer cup, go ahead. No entry into next year's championship though for what will probably be a Division 3 team. Get into Div 2 or make your provincial final to show you belong in the All-Ireland championship.
Two rounds in July. Semi-finals by second week in August and final last Sunday in August.
Playing games on Saturday afternoons and nights will be expected.
Tell me why this won't work...
It's fine and there won't be a perfect scenario. But in Munster to get to a provincial final you can beat Waterford and Clare. For Donegal this year in Ulster you must beat Tyrone, Armagh and Derry. I don't think you should get rewarded just for making a final. The final itself has to have some real importance. Personally, I'd only have provincial winners making it through (as top 4 seeds) with top 12 league finishers joining them.
..too lazy to type everything I love about this proposal, but suffice to say I think it's brilliant. Highlights are a) upholds relevance of the provincial championships. It actually enhances them. B) makes the league more relevant c) frees up some good weather months for the club championship.
Get this formally submitted please...ive thought about little else since I read it last night :o
Wobbler for President!
Ball hopper and Benny - ye're proposals would be blown out of the congress waters if it ever got that far.
The weaker Counties won't agree to being excluded.
I'd agree about the weaker counties bit, so have a second tier championship, finalists get a top tier place the following year
... Also think that the provincial championships winner gets a place in the top 16... To allow for your Clare or sligo&aqs outliers.. In practice, this should not be an issue as it's rare enough a team from outside the effective top 16 win one, only arises every 5 years or so in Connacht.. Every 10 years elsewhere...
Actually where would we be this season by this ranking. Would kildares win over Laois have been enough to rescue our season? At the expense of Laois perhaps?
Havent read all 11 pages but I like it a lot.
Any merit in a limited play off for the teams ranked 13-20
13 Down (D2) 14 vs 20 Fermanagh (D3) 10.5
14 Clare (D4) 13 vs 19 Wexford (D3) 11
15 Tipperary (D4) 13 vs 18 Armagh (D2) 12
16 Kildare (D1) 12 vs 17 Laois (D2) 12
could potentially keep more teams interested in league for longer.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 14, 2015, 11:02:08 AM
Ball hopper and Benny - ye're proposals would be blown out of the congress waters if it ever got that far.
The weaker Counties won't agree to being excluded.
Yeah, you're right but for any change to happen we are going to have to see a change in mindset. Our whole club structure is based on the senior, intermediate and junior system and teams work happily within in. Unless something drastic happens to funding and population levels then we will always have a system that is unfair at county level if we throw everyone into the same championship. How can we divide teams in a league then decide they are fit to compete on an even playing field a few months later? Linking the league to the championship is not excluding the weaker counties, (I'm all for a championship for the bottom 16 counties played as certain risers to senior games) it does however give a county that is serious about progressing a route to play for Sam, get promotion and you will make the top 16. Surely it's better if a team in div 4 works its way up through the ranks and shows development (like Tipperary maybe) and when they make the last 16 they are better equipped to deal with it than throwing Longford in with Dublin, even though they ply their trade way below them in the league. We need to see the league element, not as a seperate league but as an All Ireland qualifier and part of the championship process. Anyway, how many div 3 and 4 teams are likely to make the last 16 in ANY format?
Plenty of hammerings in Hurling this summer both live games today very one sided and some reckon football should copy the hurling format?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on June 21, 2015, 05:44:39 PM
Plenty of hammerings in Hurling this summer both live games today very one sided and some reckon football should copy the hurling format?
Imagine what an utter state of disaster hurling would be in if hurling didn't have the structure it does have.
What sort of crowds and what amount of hammerings there would be if the traditional provincial championships still existed in hurling and you had a lot less of the top teams playing each other?
When the qualifiers came in some of the weaker counties seemed to think it would magically improve their teams.
The structure of competitions isn't a magic fix that's going to improve a team's skills overnight but it can reduce the number of predicable dull games, where you can pick the winner with ease before throw-in a significant amount of time and the best a significant chunk of the teams competing can hope for is the moral victory of pulling off a shock.
The fact is that for a significant chunk of teams, the amount of football they will play in the summer depends hugely on what sort of draw they get.
In football it seems only the top six Dublin,Kerry,Cork,Donegal,Mayo,Monaghan only lose when facing off against each other and don't suffer shocks any more, is the league format the reason for creating this gap i'd wonder. As for the rest on the day the so called higher ranked teams can lose to promoted division three or mid table division three teams.
So Joe is backing Jimmy on this one. This is going to happen people......
http://gaeliclife.com/2015/06/joe-brolly-stop-the-whales-from-eating-the-plankton/
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 21, 2015, 08:39:22 PM
So Joe is backing Jimmy on this one. This is going to happen people......
http://gaeliclife.com/2015/06/joe-brolly-stop-the-whales-from-eating-the-plankton/
This is interesting but I just hate justifying everything on this statement:
Worst of all, the weaker teams in the country disappear speedily, usually having played just one championship match and one qualifier. - Worst of all?
Let's face it, the stronger teams are unlikely to disappear after those two games. If they did they wouldn't be considered, um, 'stronger'.
But by and large I do agree with the direction McGuinness is going with this.
Article covering the state of things in Waterford football
Posted it in this thread as I think it's very relevant to the state of the game in the bottom tier football counties and how an alternative GAA season might possibly help them. A key problem for the bottom tier team is getting all of their best footballers to commit. When your playing resources are so limited missing out on even a few lads can have a huge impact.
I think lads in the bottom tier counties would be far more inclined to line out for their county if they knew that the odds of getting an almighty hammering were reduced significantly and there was an actual prize that was
It wouldnt be a quick fix and you wouldn't have Waterford competing for Sam but it would at least be something for the footballers in teh county to work with.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/after-the-winter-sun-the-summer-chill-for-waterford-338277.html
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
An instructive article. Given the uproar a few years when the impact of the changes to the qualifiers with the Tommy Murphy Cup dawned on people, I'm sceptical that offering a second tier competition to the Waterford footballers will somehow energise those playing the game in the county to give more commitment. There was a piece in the Sindo a few years back by John O'Brien that pretty well summed up my attitude to the whole situation:
QuoteDon't knock the back door -- it's the best system we have (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dont-knock-the-back-door-its-the-best-system-we-have-26743751.html)
The qualifiers free weaker counties from provincial shackles, says John O'Brien
PUBLISHED
19/06/2011
It could be argued that the most electrifying moment of this year's All-Ireland football championship thus far came in Carrick-on-Shannon last Sunday when Mickey Quinn and Paddy McNaughton dipped their fingers into a linen sack and, one after the other, pulled out the names of Louth and Meath. A leaden summer dominated by the usual hysterical talk about declining skills and bad officiating had suddenly spat out a fixture worth getting worked up about.
It was a shot in the arm for the qualifier system, ten years old this summer, still unloved by many, only grudgingly accepted by the majority. Yet it threw up something the rigidly structured provincial championships could not: an unexpected gem that harked back to unfinished business from last year. A grudge match. It mightn't live up to the hype, of course, but the hype itself is something. God knows, the championship can do with every bit it can muster.
Not that it will salvage the qualifiers from the lowly position they occupy in people's affections. Any day now a giant is going to be toppled -- a Kerry or Cork or Tyrone -- and the inevitable cliché will ring out: "Sure the All-Ireland only begins in August anyway." The provincial championships, it is argued, have been irreparably devalued while the qualifiers are little more than a month-long accounting period from which the best teams will filter through for the real business of summer.
Such sentiments are fair enough, but a problem arises when the temptation becomes too strong to lump all the ills of the championship structure at the door of the qualifiers which weren't devised as a panacea in the first place. What they were was a heavily watered down version of the proposals put forward by the now defunct Football Development Committee in 1999. Instead of a wildly ambitious scheme to guarantee every county a minimum of 10 games came the tepid compromise of a second chance. A GAA solution to a GAA problem.
Whenever these debates surface, we might usefully wonder whether we are asking the right questions anyway. All the fanciful talk of intricate round-robin systems, Champions League variations or shifting provincial boundaries merely underscores the reality that the system is an ass to begin with. The thing is it has more than a century behind it and isn't for turning in any meaningful way. For better or worse we're largely stuck with it.
Those who decry the qualifier system do so largely on the grounds that is has diluted the do-or-die nature of provincial games and compromised the sanctity of the championship. Michael Delaney, chief executive of the Leinster Council, has long been an ardent critic of the qualifiers and the feeling persists that the hankering for the traditional knockout format is stronger than most of us would bargain for.
And that's the thing. Before you start talking about fancy new systems, you need to figure out how radical you're willing to be. What is the point, for instance, of talking about more elaborate structures without a mind for the demands it would place on amateur players? If amateurism is a sine qua non going forward, forget notions of extending the present format. And if we accept that clubs are the bedrock of the GAA, then it could be argued that the All-Ireland championship is already big enough for its boots.
As for the qualifiers themselves, criticism tends to centre around two issues in particular. The first is that they are weighted strongly in favour of the most successful counties, a familiar refrain when the GAA introduces any innovation. To which there is really only one appropriate response: well, lordy. A championship stretched out over five months that culminates, more often than not, with the two best teams in the country fighting for silverware in Croke Park. By definition should a championship be designed to do anything else?
Those who have trouble with that might be better off coming up with fresh ideas. A handicap system as used in horse racing, perhaps. The best players carrying lead weights in their shorts or, if that is too uncomfortable, maybe the Gooch could play blindfolded or the Cork midfield forced to play with their bootlaces tied together. Leitrim could select their entire stock of able-bodied men under the age of 35, allowing them to field 20 players instead of 15.
Or maybe you could leave the qualifiers out of it and focus on the real problem. The GAA investing in weaker counties, particularly at schools and underage level, helping them to close the gap with the top teams.
The real value of Mick O'Dwyer's presence in Wicklow, for example, wasn't any quick-fix notion the great man brought, but the impetus he provided the county board to get busy on the ground where the real hard work needed to be done.
The impetus is the thing. It was a credit to Wicklow that they realised their thrilling run through the 2009 qualifiers wasn't an elixir in itself for years of neglect and poor results, but something to build on that would take time and a lot of energy. There isn't a system alive that can compensate for hard work and dedication. The qualifiers can provide an impetus that, for various reasons, hasn't always come from the provincial championships. It is up to the counties themselves how they use it.
The other major issue is the apparent iniquity of provincial winners being denied a second chance and the dismal record of provincial finalists in the final qualifying round. Is it harsh, as Mickey Harte has argued, that provincial winners exit the championship after their first defeat? Perhaps. Yet is there nothing to be said for the momentum and confidence a team accumulates during an unbeaten run through the province?
And more importantly, they will enjoy the privilege of an extended break while their opponents are often coming off the back of a hard game the previous week. That's a pretty sizeable advantage in our book.
The defeated provincial finalists have a stronger case. Yet the fault here lies with the needlessly elongated nature of the provincial championships. It has nothing to do with the qualifiers per se. The statistics show that of the 40 fourth-round qualifiers played to date, only 15 provincial finalists have advanced. That's a win rate of less than 40 per cent. On the surface that appears alarming but there is a reasonably satisfactory explanation.
Take, for example, the oft-cited three years when none of the beaten provincial finalists managed to win: 2003, 2004 and 2010. If you examine each contest individually none of them, with the exception of Fermanagh beating Mayo in 2004, could be legitimately regarded as shocks. The favourites held sway almost every time. Back to an earlier point: the strong teams getting stronger as the summer wears on. That's championship football for you. And maybe it suggests too that the best teams don't always contest provincial finals.
There's a bottom-line argument in all of this. You could tweak the system in as many ways as you like and the structural faults would just manifest themselves in other ways. And, as now, the system would still bear the brunt of the blame. The best course of action is simply to enjoy what is there and stop hankering for idealistic solutions that don't exist. The championship started with a whimper in Ballybofey last month. It comes alive in Breffni Park next Saturday.
Ah, July approaching. Mid-summer and not a single county out of the All-Ireland yet. The games coming thick and fast. The tantalising prospect of a minnow suddenly getting a hint of form and putting a few wins together back to back. New heroes, fresh narratives. Just think how great the qualifiers could be if we only learned how to love them.
Laois had played 4 Championship games and were knocked out before Sligo had kicked a ball in anger. :-\
Quote from: Dinny Breen on June 22, 2015, 12:06:26 PM
Laois had played 4 Championship games and were knocked out before Sligo had kicked a ball in anger. :-\
I think that's the real issue. Scheduling is crazy. The Connacht Championship features 7 teams and runs from May 3rd to July 19th. Given that there isn't even a Connacht Hurling Championship, how is that allowed?
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
So, putting your bizarrely aggressive post to one side - seriously, what do you suggest?
Because each Province can do what they like.
Connacht fixtures drawn up by first class in Ballyhaunis school.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
So, putting your bizarrely aggressive post to one side - seriously, what do you suggest?
You and satire obviously do not have any more than a passing acquaintance. ::)
And anyway what's the point of me posting a reply. Sure you will probably just put it one side if you don't like it.
And I did make a suggestion, give everybody a championship of their own. Seems like a logical conclusion to the rationale that we can't have teams taking a bit of a beating from better teams.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
Are you the Pat Spillane of the board? That pre-planned rant that has no connection to what has been discussed would suggest you are.
Nobody is suggesting we change things to prevent stronger counties winning, it's the opposite in fact, people want the same path to a final for everybody. Rather than the daft situation where Sligo could win an All Ireland playing 5 games while Donegal would need a minimum of 7 or counties getting knocked out of the All Ireland the same weekend one team starts.
Nobody is saying a different competition format will mean teams won't get tanked, the All Ireland hurling semi finalists of last year got tanked yesterday but a different format could provide teams with more meaningful games against teams of similar ability.
I can accept people having different views on what is the best format but how anyone could suggest the current one is is beyond me. The current one is an utter disaster. It's nearly July and we've had 6 months of action in the GAA season and how many notable, memorable, games have we had in either code yet?
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 22, 2015, 12:09:47 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on June 22, 2015, 12:06:26 PM
Laois had played 4 Championship games and were knocked out before Sligo had kicked a ball in anger. :-\
I think that's the real issue. Scheduling is crazy. The Connacht Championship features 7 teams and runs from May 3rd to July 19th. Given that there isn't even a Connacht Hurling Championship, how is that allowed?
We used to say it was comical, however it is disgraceful.
No doubt, the Connacht council will come up with some BS excuse.
As I pointed out on another blog.
It may take one of the last round of the qualifiers on August 1st ending in a draw, and then causing the Q/finals the week after on August 8th to be postponed, to really show how ludicrious the schedule is.
It is like the provincial secretaries are thumbing their noses at just about everyone in the GAA. In addition, nobody in Croke Park seems to have the liathroidi to confront them.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
So, putting your bizarrely aggressive post to one side - seriously, what do you suggest?
You and satire obviously do not have any more than a passing acquaintance. ::)
And anyway what's the point of me posting a reply. Sure you will probably just put it one side if you don't like it.
And I did make a suggestion, give everybody a championship of their own. Seems like a logical conclusion to the rationale that we can't have teams taking a bit of a beating from better teams.
Satire? I was fully aware of the point you are making and the manner in which you were making it (Bizarrely using swear words to make the point) . If you consider it satire then, yes, I don't have the same acquaintance to satire as you do.
In a grown up debate though, I'd be interested to hear other peoples suggestions. It's interesting that you won't post your own preferred choice of system as it will get put to one side, even though you are more than happy to ridicule any other suggestions made. (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your 32 tier championship is indeed satire). If you don't have a preferred system then fair enough.
Quote from: Zulu on June 22, 2015, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
Are you the Pat Spillane of the board? That pre-planned rant that has no connection to what has been discussed would suggest you are.
Nobody is suggesting we change things to prevent stronger counties winning, it's the opposite in fact, people want the same path to a final for everybody. Rather than the daft situation where Sligo could win an All Ireland playing 5 games while Donegal would need a minimum of 7 or counties getting knocked out of the All Ireland the same weekend one team starts.
Nobody is saying a different competition format will mean teams won't get tanked, the All Ireland hurling semi finalists of last year got tanked yesterday but a different format could provide teams with more meaningful games against teams of similar ability.
I can accept people having different views on what is the best format but how anyone could suggest the current one is is beyond me. The current one is an utter disaster. It's nearly July and we've had 6 months of action in the GAA season and how many notable, memorable, games have we had in either code yet?
No. I'm afraid I don't have as many AI medals as Pat. Or even Indiana for that matter lol.
The Gaa is unique and special because of it's structure of club based on parishes, counties and provinces. You, and others on here, seem to think that it is a complete waste of time and that the entire programme is a 'disaster'.
Well I think it works pretty well, albeit with plenty of problems, but I don't want changes that won't
guarantee that the entire ethos of our games won't be lost.
An unintended consequence of the back door has been to dilute the blood and thunder nature of championship matches [in my view] and it has created elites within the game already, to the extent that only one of the three provincial championships is in any way competitive. The premise of creating the back door was to give weaker teams more games in the hope that they would have the chance to improve. I think it has failed abysmally in this respect in that as the years have progressed fewer and fewer teams are making that progress, and in fact the opposite has happened as they are less competitive than ever, and I fail to see how any further moves down that road will resolve that issue.
Whilst I was being [obviously] tongue in cheek earlier, will we see a move to a top 8 in another ten years time if we continue down this road, why stop at a top 16??
It is very easy to set out issues that are prevalent in the current system. but can you, or any of the other proposers of new systems, guarantee that there won't be unforseen negative outcomes of any new structures?
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 02:23:30 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
So, putting your bizarrely aggressive post to one side - seriously, what do you suggest?
You and satire obviously do not have any more than a passing acquaintance. ::)
And anyway what's the point of me posting a reply. Sure you will probably just put it one side if you don't like it.
And I did make a suggestion, give everybody a championship of their own. Seems like a logical conclusion to the rationale that we can't have teams taking a bit of a beating from better teams.
Satire? I was fully aware of the point you are making and the manner in which you were making it (Bizarrely using swear words to make the point) . If you consider it satire then, yes, I don't have the same acquaintance to satire as you do.
In a grown up debate though, I'd be interested to hear other peoples suggestions. It's interesting that you won't post your own preferred choice of system as it will get put to one side, even though you are more than happy to ridicule any other suggestions made. (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your 32 tier championship is indeed satire). If you don't have a preferred system then fair enough.
Well i don't know what your definition of satire is but sure we could just look itup in the dictionary.
Satire definition: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 02:31:13 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 02:23:30 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
So, putting your bizarrely aggressive post to one side - seriously, what do you suggest?
You and satire obviously do not have any more than a passing acquaintance. ::)
And anyway what's the point of me posting a reply. Sure you will probably just put it one side if you don't like it.
And I did make a suggestion, give everybody a championship of their own. Seems like a logical conclusion to the rationale that we can't have teams taking a bit of a beating from better teams.
Satire? I was fully aware of the point you are making and the manner in which you were making it (Bizarrely using swear words to make the point) . If you consider it satire then, yes, I don't have the same acquaintance to satire as you do.
In a grown up debate though, I'd be interested to hear other peoples suggestions. It's interesting that you won't post your own preferred choice of system as it will get put to one side, even though you are more than happy to ridicule any other suggestions made. (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your 32 tier championship is indeed satire). If you don't have a preferred system then fair enough.
Well i don't know what your definition of satire is but sure we could just look itup in the dictionary.
Satire definition: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
I like my satire to be a bit more subtle. But each to their own!
I'm quite happy to defend the current system, but I don't think we'd get very far.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 02:31:13 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 02:23:30 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 22, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 22, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Here why don't we have a 32 tier championship so that all the lads that have been bustin their hole all winter get a medal.
Somebody needs to stand up for these weaker counties. Why should the good teams win all the f****** games, the whole system is so completely biased against the bad teams. Every f***** year.....same oul s**** ....the best team wins the all-ireland and all the good treams are getting to semi-finals and shite like that. It's just not fair!!!
So, putting your bizarrely aggressive post to one side - seriously, what do you suggest?
You and satire obviously do not have any more than a passing acquaintance. ::)
And anyway what's the point of me posting a reply. Sure you will probably just put it one side if you don't like it.
And I did make a suggestion, give everybody a championship of their own. Seems like a logical conclusion to the rationale that we can't have teams taking a bit of a beating from better teams.
Satire? I was fully aware of the point you are making and the manner in which you were making it (Bizarrely using swear words to make the point) . If you consider it satire then, yes, I don't have the same acquaintance to satire as you do.
In a grown up debate though, I'd be interested to hear other peoples suggestions. It's interesting that you won't post your own preferred choice of system as it will get put to one side, even though you are more than happy to ridicule any other suggestions made. (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your 32 tier championship is indeed satire). If you don't have a preferred system then fair enough.
Well i don't know what your definition of satire is but sure we could just look itup in the dictionary.
Satire definition: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
I like my satire to be a bit more subtle. But each to their own!
Mine was so subtle you didnt even recognise it as satire!
Quote from: deiseach on June 22, 2015, 02:35:57 PM
I'm quite happy to defend the current system, but I don't think we'd get very far.
So would you argue it's the best system we can have?
QuoteThe Gaa is unique and special because of it's structure of club based on parishes, counties and provinces. You, and others on here, seem to think that it is a complete waste of time and that the entire programme is a 'disaster'.
But under this system clubs are getting screwed, most counties have little worthwhile to compete for and we're at the provincial final stage in most provinces with hardly a game of note or surprise result in any of them (including the hurling). Monaghan and Donegal (most likely) again in Ulster, Mayo in a final going for 5 in a row facing a division 3 team in the final, Dublin well set for, is it 5 in a row too? Cork and Kerry again in Munster while Tipp and Kilkenny look head and shoulders above everyone else in hurling....again. Is that a system that's working?
QuoteWell I think it works pretty well, albeit with plenty of problems, but I don't want changes that won't guarantee that the entire ethos of our games won't be lost.
I actually can guarantee that, because a better system will help club and county play more games in a properly structured manner. The only thing I'd rid of is the provincials and even then if a system is proposed that can retain them and achieve more meaningful games between teams of similar ability in a structured manner then fine.
QuoteAn unintended consequence of the back door has been to dilute the blood and thunder nature of championship matches [in my view] and it has created elites within the game already, to the extent that only one of the three provincial championships is in any way competitive.
I don't think that was an unintended consequence and once you removed the do or die element there was always going to be a dilution of intensity. There were always elites in the game, how many provincial titles have Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Dublin, Meath, Cavan and Tyrone compared to Clare, Waterford, Leitrim, Sligo, Carlow, Wicklow, Fermanagh and Antrim? None of the provincial championships are competitive.
Quote from: Zulu on June 22, 2015, 03:02:40 PM
Quote from: deiseach on June 22, 2015, 02:35:57 PM
I'm quite happy to defend the current system, but I don't think we'd get very far.
So would you argue it's the best system we can have?
There are changes I'd make, such as compressing the timescale of the championship. But given that the counties are inherently lopsided any change to the system is just shuffling those lopsided pieces around. We're never going to get perfect symmetry so, as per the John O'Brien article I posted earlier, let's revel in what we have rather than chasing an improvement that will just be swapping one set of problems for another.
I think this can be sorted very easily. Three meaningful completions each year.
1) the leagues run as normal
2) the provincial championships run as normal though over a shorter time span and have no bearing on the All Ireland championship
3) The A all Ireland and the B all Ireland
Division one and Division two teams entered into A championship (16 teams)
Division three and Division four teams entered into B championship (16 teams)
All Ireland Championships to all be played using seeded policy (div1 teams only play div2 teams in the first game only then open draw) and on a knock out system
B championship games to be curtain raisers for A championship games including final.
this two me gives all teams a full league and at a minimum 2 championship games
Quote from: Zulu on June 22, 2015, 03:02:40 PM
Quote from: deiseach on June 22, 2015, 02:35:57 PM
I'm quite happy to defend the current system, but I don't think we'd get very far.
So would you argue it's the best system we can have?
QuoteThe Gaa is unique and special because of it's structure of club based on parishes, counties and provinces. You, and others on here, seem to think that it is a complete waste of time and that the entire programme is a 'disaster'.
But under this system clubs are getting screwed, most counties have little worthwhile to compete for and we're at the provincial final stage in most provinces with hardly a game of note or surprise result in any of them (including the hurling). Monaghan and Donegal (most likely) again in Ulster, Mayo in a final going for 5 in a row facing a division 3 team in the final, Dublin well set for, is it 5 in a row too? Cork and Kerry again in Munster while Tipp and Kilkenny look head and shoulders above everyone else in hurling....again. Is that a system that's working?
Well you are making my point here, the introduction of a backdoor has already made the elites untouchable. And you want to go further down this road??
QuoteWell I think it works pretty well, albeit with plenty of problems, but I don't want changes that won't guarantee that the entire ethos of our games won't be lost.
I actually can guarantee that, because a better system will help club and county play more games in a properly structured manner. The only thing I'd rid of is the provincials and even then if a system is proposed that can retain them and achieve more meaningful games between teams of similar ability in a structured manner then fine.
So you want to introduce a system that will allow both club and county more meaningful games. How? Are you gonna extend a year by a few more weeks?? Quote
An unintended consequence of the back door has been to dilute the blood and thunder nature of championship matches [in my view] and it has created elites within the game already, to the extent that only one of the three provincial championships is in any way competitive.
I don't think that was an unintended consequence and once you removed the do or die element there was always going to be a dilution of intensity. There were always elites in the game, how many provincial titles have Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Dublin, Meath, Cavan and Tyrone compared to Clare, Waterford, Leitrim, Sligo, Carlow, Wicklow, Fermanagh and Antrim? None of the provincial championships are competitive.
Intended?? Piffle, you are talking nonsense.
Some of these counties might not have many titles but I guarantee that any they do have are well remembered. And many of these counties would have genuinely believed up until lately that with a big push they could still achieve one. But you would happily take that away from them?
what if every championship match before the semi finals was a 2 legged game, therefor guaranteeing every county at least 1 home match every year, after that continue on as it is now. every year there is plenty of counties who never have a home championship game, surely this needs to be rectified in someway. didnt get to read all the thread so maybe this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.
Quote from: SHEEDY on June 22, 2015, 06:00:08 PM
what if every championship match before the semi finals was a 2 legged game, therefor guaranteeing every county at least 1 home match every year, after that continue on as it is now. every year there is plenty of counties who never have a home championship game, surely this needs to be rectified in someway. didnt get to read all the thread so maybe this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.
What good is a home match if you're climbing an insurmountable mountain, having been spanked in the first leg?
Football needs to be competitive to be enjoyable.
13 pages in and (completely biased and rather big headed) I'm not seeing many improvements to the original proposal. Just a lot of the usual attempts to placate everyone and please nobody.
The heart of this proposal is in making every game meaningful insofar as possible, and in preventing anyone's season dragging on unnecessarily.
I like Jimmy's variant too, except there's a comfort zone in it for everyone in the top tiers. Comfort zones don't create competitive football.
Perhaps the most disheartening thread I read on the Board this year was a group of Down fans demanding that McKernan got rested for the National League final in case he got another black card. Why oh why do we pay £15 in to watch matches in a tournament we don't want to win?
If anyone is still interested, the 2015 final standings using this system would have been:
1 Dublin (D1) 34.5
2 Monaghan (D1) 32
3 Cork (D1) 29
4 Mayo (D1) 27.5
5 Kerry (D1) 27.5
6 Donegal (D1) 23.5
7 Down (D2) (F) 20
8 Roscommon (D2) 20
9 Meath (D2) 20
10 Fermanagh (D3) 18.5
11 Galway (D2) 18
12 Armagh (D3) 16.5
13 Cavan (D2) (F) 14
14 Tipperary (D3) 14
15 Westmeath (D2) 14
16 Longford (D4) (F) 13
- - -
17 Tyrone (D1) (F) 12.5
18 Clare (D3) 11
19 Offaly (D4) (F) 11
20 Laois (D2) 10
21 Kildare (D2) 10
22 Derry (D1) 9.5
23 Sligo (D3) 9
24 Limerick (D3) 9
25 Antrim (D4) (F) 9
26 Leitrim(D4) (F) 8
27 Louth (D3) 6
28 Wexford (D3) 6
29 Carlow (D4) (F) 6
30 Waterford (D4) (F) 3
31 Wicklow (D4) 3
32 London (D4) 3
- - -
All told not a whole pile of difference between this and what the current Championship structure has delivered. Tyrone and Kildare folks would obviously be disgusted that their beloved team didn't make the cut this season. But awful league form and poor provincial championships shouldn't be rewarded, and this time their elongated season has been at the mercy of the kindness of the back door.
- - -
As the draw is preset, it would have worked out like this:
Top half:
A: Dublin vs Longford
B: Kerry vs Armagh
C: Down vs Fermanagh
D: Cork vs Tipperary
Then A vs B and C vs D, with winners meeting each other in the semis.
Bottom half:
E: Mayo vs Cavan
F: Roscommon vs Meath
G: Donegal vs Galway
H: Monaghan vs Westmeath
Then E vs F and G vs H, with winners meeting each other in the semis.
- - -
So the last 16 is (as expected) mostly a wheat from the chafe exercise. And much like the existing system, it's only from the QFs onwards that things really start to get interesting in terms of the big prize.
But to refer back to my OP, as this would all have been done and dusted a month ago, and every game up to that point would have been competitive, there is potentially much more to be gained by taking this route to the same point.
- - -
By the way, if the last 16 games were to go the way I would expect them to (whereby all of the teams named first would win), we would actually end up with the 8 D1 teams for 2016 playing each other in the AIQFs. I don't actually think this is an oddity. It's roughly what should happen when teams are rewarded for results over the course of a season.
Ah sure if that draw was what was made everyone would be calling for change when the Dubs hammered Longford ;)
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 22, 2015, 04:49:24 PM
Ah sure if that draw was what was made everyone would be calling for change when the Dubs hammered Longford ;)
;D
Very interesting, wobbler.
That would never work, no championship without Kildare. I am disgusted.
Did I say that this was good at one point
What a load of Sh*te!
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 22, 2015, 06:44:07 PM
Did I say that this was good at one point
What a load of Sh*te!
Said it before. Time for a 3 tiered championship like at club level - senior, intermediate and junior. At the business end of the championship we should not be getting mismatches like today.
Let the Inter and Junior Champs into Round 1 of the Senior (and get promoted for the following year) and you might be on to something.
Of course the Provincial Championships would have to stay and be open to all.
Having a mandatory 2 week rest for beaten provincial finalists would have done away with a lot of the uncompetitiveness this weekend in my opinion, if only because Cork would have been a better match for Dublin and definitely would have beat Kildare with the extra week.
A mandatory 2 week rest is only possible if you ban replays. Lack of rest was not Cork's main problem.
GPA proposal.
https://www.gaelicplayers.com/WhatsHappening/LatestNews/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/448/Football-Competitions-Proposal---Improving-Player-Experience-Unlocking-Potential-of-Game.aspx
The bit that stands out for me on the introduction is "The GPA specifically questioned counties from the lower Divisions regarding a new structure and the majority of counties rejected the inclusion of a secondary competition in any proposal."
It's as I suspected the view would be and it'll be interesting to see what Brolly, O'Rourke, McStay etc. think of it.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 01, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
GPA proposal.
https://www.gaelicplayers.com/WhatsHappening/LatestNews/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/448/Football-Competitions-Proposal---Improving-Player-Experience-Unlocking-Potential-of-Game.aspx
I think the proposal from Jim McGuiness was much better.
I really don't see the benefit of the group system, particularly when only one team is knocked out after all the round robin games.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 01, 2015, 01:32:48 PM
The bit that stands out for me on the introduction is "The GPA specifically questioned counties from the lower Divisions regarding a new structure and the majority of counties rejected the inclusion of a secondary competition in any proposal."
It's as I suspected the view would be and it'll be interesting to see what Brolly, O'Rourke, McStay etc. think of it.
I honestly cannot see the benefits of the group system myself.
It stinks of the GPA trying to pull the wool over eyes and come across as inclusive to the needs of players in small counties. The reality is that purpose of the elongated season is to allow those players on the semi-pro side of things to concentrate solely on county football for the summer. Which in turn sticks a wretched dagger into the club game across all counties.
I would fear for this system. If the competition structures are to be reinvented in football, then it has to be an improvement, or else the people will in all likelihood vote with their feet.
As there is genuinely no point in giving 3 All-Ireland Championship matches to any of the tier 4 sides, or to the majority of the tier 3 sides, it is an extreme layer of fat that any competition could do without.
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Do you think the structure of the season at club & county level is fine as it is?
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Delete the thread, whoever started it. The Keyser doesn't like it.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
To me, the issue isn't the structure as such but more the length of time taken to play the championships and the imbalance of the teams routes to it.
This GPA version goes a step too far in the number of games and will dilute the championship feel to it. It would still see the same teams giving the same other teams the same hidings if they met.
I'd look at tweaking their system a bit. Play the League as is, play the championships as is and then play the championship as an open 32 team knockout, first drawn at home and let the best team win it. Would be big hype from the start with potential clash's of the big guns at the start, tricky away ties before it settles down for the quarter finals at Croke park.
Might devalue the provincials somewhat but aren't they going that way anyway. May give the lesser counties a realistic target to build for.
I think this proposal moves us closer to having something like the rugby model where you have a (greatly diminished) club season running separately in parallel with the county season and players generally only play in one or the other unless they're coming back from injury. Not something I would be in favour of
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
You introduced a strawman argument about refugees. Like WTF!!
Then made a couple of statements without a single shred of evidence to back them up. What evidence is there that 'most GAA folk are not happy with the current situation'??
I never mentioned sheep but if the cap fits....
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 01, 2015, 04:25:00 PM
I think this proposal moves us closer to having something like the rugby model where you have a (greatly diminished) club season running separately in parallel with the county season and players generally only play in one or the other unless they're coming back from injury. Not something I would be in favour of
Me neither. It just wouldn't work. I'm from a "so called weaker county", with hardly any history of success. Just like so many other counties. My club generally have 3-5 lads on the county senior panel. As committed as they are to their county's cause, if they were told they couldn't play club then they would simply no longer play county. You would see this replicated in about 20/32 counties, and even more if we are talking about hurling too.
I'd be worried that the round robin stage could be a bit of a damp squib with their seeded nature and 24 out of 32 teams progressing but overall I would be in favour of the GPA proposal. It is a fair and cohesive system which definitely is preferable in comparison with the current shambles.
Two questions for any proposed new system:
1. What is the problem (are the problems) with the existing system?
2. How does the proposal address this problem (or these problems)?
This year much of the discussion as to the need for a new system has focused on the one-sided nature of many of the games. A champions' league type structure would do nothing to fix that, and as others have noted, would actually increase the number of meaningless games.
I wouldn't be against change, but not unless compelling answers are forthcoming to the two questions above.
The proposed format is a considerable disimprovement on the current system, in my view.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
You introduced a strawman argument about refugees. Like WTF!!
Then made a couple of statements without a single shred of evidence to back them up. What evidence is there that 'most GAA folk are not happy with the current situation'??
I never mentioned sheep but if the cap fits....
I'd say this gaaboard is fairly reflective of a cross section of GAA folk and there are very few people that I have read on here who think the current championship structure is fine as it is. However, your evidence that you haven't spoken about it with your mates is much more compelling.
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on October 01, 2015, 08:10:56 PM
Two questions for any proposed new system:
1. What is the problem (are the problems) with the existing system?
2. How does the proposal address this problem (or these problems)?
This year much of the discussion as to the need for a new system has focused on the one-sided nature of many of the games. A champions' league type structure would do nothing to fix that, and as others have noted, would actually increase the number of meaningless games.
I wouldn't be against change, but not unless compelling answers are forthcoming to the two questions above.
The main problems currently are: Relatively meaningless league, unfair provincial structures and poor fixture structuring, pointless January football especially with fixture pile ups due to college football.
The GPA proposal deals with these issues with the exception of college football taking up players supposed off season.
Hammerings can only be avoided if the GAA does something to close the resource gap. The improved GPA structure should allow the GAA to increase revenue which can be put into counties other than Dublin and Kerry which might help.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
You introduced a strawman argument about refugees. Like WTF!!
Then made a couple of statements without a single shred of evidence to back them up. What evidence is there that 'most GAA folk are not happy with the current situation'??
I never mentioned sheep but if the cap fits....
So you think the current structure is okay??
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
You introduced a strawman argument about refugees. Like WTF!!
Then made a couple of statements without a single shred of evidence to back them up. What evidence is there that 'most GAA folk are not happy with the current situation'??
I never mentioned sheep but if the cap fits....
Again, nonsense. You said this wasn't a hot topic in the GAA because it wasn't raised during your 'many' GAA conversations, I simply showed how that wasn't reflective of anything.
I then made a statement that is reflected by many posts here and on other GAA discussion boards as well as many media pieces so there is clear evidence that most GAA people don't think we have it right. But you carry on thinking we are all being led by a few journalists and media attention seekers.
The main problems I have are:
i) It makes the National League even more meaningless than it already is. The "oh but the teams will have seedings to play for" spin is nonsense.
ii) It makes a total mockery of the provincial championships and gives them quasi-O'Byrne Cup status. Obviously they've been "retained" in the proposal purely to increase the chance of it getting passed but if passed, they would likely be abolished within a decade when it becomes obvious they're not being taken seriously - and that's the real plan - to neuter them and abolish them by the back door. The provincial finals, which are marquee occasions, are effectively abolished as we know them and the chance of a provincial title for players is gone.
iii) A load of dead rubber round robin games are introduced. The overall championship is not slimmed down, it's expanded from 60 games to 71 games. The All-Ireland final will supposedly move to the first Sunday in September. Good luck with that.
iv) It takes no cognisance of the fact that there is also a hurling championship.
v) It will give even more of an advantage to stronger panels than is already there.
vi) It does nothing for the club player, drives a deeper wedge between county and club activity and and actually worsens the situation of the club player as it will close the window in April and May when club championship fixtures can take place.
The one good thing about the proposal is that it does away with the notion of a two-tier championship.
It's been said on here a few times already but before any new system / structure is proposed, we need to be clear on what the problems are, otherwise we'll have no idea whether or not the changes have fixed the problem or not.
IMO, the main two problems are the fact that a large proportion of the intercounty season is spent on a competition which isn't highly valued i.e. the league. The second and more important problem is that fact that the club season is a mess with large gaps between games and very little certainty for the club players.
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 02, 2015, 08:56:13 AM
It's been said on here a few times already but before any new system / structure is proposed, we need to be clear on what the problems are, otherwise we'll have no idea whether or not the changes have fixed the problem or not.
IMO, the main two problems are the fact that a large proportion of the intercounty season is spent on a competition which isn't highly valued i.e. the league. The second and more important problem is that fact that the club season is a mess with large gaps between games and very little certainty for the club players.
That are pretty much the main issues, any change in format needs to address this first and foremost.
118 Senior inter County games are played in Feb/Mar and April in what is in effect a pre Season warm up competition.
Then it takes 5 months to play 60 games in 2 inter linked knock out competitions.
Because the 2 Summer competitions are knock out it's nearly impossible for Co Boards to make any firm club fixtures till after the August weekend as you can't predict when or for how long the County will be playing.
Solutions?
Longer drawn out NFL with Club competitions going on in tandem followed by short sharp intense inter County Championship?
Abolish NFL and play Provincials on a league basis with a K O All Ireland Championship similar to the present Qualifiers?
Leave as is but reserve certain weekends from May to Sept by Rule for Club games?
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 10:33:51 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
You introduced a strawman argument about refugees. Like WTF!!
Then made a couple of statements without a single shred of evidence to back them up. What evidence is there that 'most GAA folk are not happy with the current situation'??
I never mentioned sheep but if the cap fits....
Again, nonsense. You said this wasn't a hot topic in the GAA because it wasn't raised during your 'many' GAA conversations, I simply showed how that wasn't reflective of anything.
I then made a statement that is reflected by many posts here and on other GAA discussion boards as well as many media pieces so there is clear evidence that most GAA people don't think we have it right. But you carry on thinking we are all being led by a few journalists and media attention seekers.
Well you can easily prove it's nonsense by getting down to your local club's AGM and put forward a motion to radically change the composition of the AI championship. You and all the other members who are hot for change will easily get this motion carried, as will all the other Zulus in their respective clubs throughout the land. County conventions all over Ireland will unaminously back you given the support there is out there for your foolproof ideas for saving the game. Congress will be a breeze, u will easily carry the day. Nirvana.
Alternatively sit at your keyboard repeatedly typing 'nonsense' when someone shows you for a fool.
Keyser, are you suggesting that the GPA aren't being completely honest when they say that there's an appetite for change amongst inter-county players?
I'd have thought they were a key stakeholder in this discussion.
Does "Keyser soze" get out the wrong side of the bed every morning or is it only when certain subjects are mentioned?
Or is he some sort of old school GAA offeeshul who doesn't want anyone who isn't of the same ilk suggesting any changes to anything?
Uachtarán CLCG himself called for Counties to submit any proposals they might come up with for changing the Senior Inter Co Championship so obviously people he talks to must have been talking about the subject.
This is a public forum for people to express their opinions on GAA matters including what they think would be a better way to run the Senior Inter County Championships ( or indeed any other competitions ).
PS - Esmeralda - Mentioning those three letters might just be a step too far. Don't you know they are the Devil Incarnate to some people ;D
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 02, 2015, 11:24:02 AM
Keyser, are you suggesting that the GPA aren't being completely honest when they say that there's an appetite for change amongst inter-county players?
I'd have thought they were a key stakeholder in this discussion.
I never mentioned the GPA, but since you did they haven't been completely transparent either in that they haven't published the raw data. Asking questions like 'Would you like less training and more games' is only likely to get one response i would imagine.
The GPA is a vested interest group, I've no issue with them but they are only a small part of the Association representing the elite of our game. Certainly their opinion should have be given substantial weight but Dessie Farrell is more interested in revenue generation and marketing opportunities than he is in club footballers, or even county players from lesser lights, getting a fair shout imo. His proposals highlight a number of laudable benefits for everyone in the Association but like a lot of the pro-change supporters on here there is zero consideration given to the fact there might be a downside to their proposals. Imo the GPA have a degree of professionalism as their aim, which is fine by me, but why don't they just come out and say so.
My contention is that the qualifiers have over time created and reaffirmed elites within the game at county level. Aping soccer style Champions league groups will only exacerbate this. Two lower tier counties playing a dead rubber is not likely to provide much interest or promote the game as far as I can see.
Certainly I can see a need for a more structured calendar of fixtures but this need to be a bottom up process not a topdown one in my opinion. Atm the debate is being dictated by the GPA and the media, it is not even a subject at club AGM's and I will challenge anyone on here to prove different.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 02, 2015, 12:13:21 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 02, 2015, 11:24:02 AM
Keyser, are you suggesting that the GPA aren't being completely honest when they say that there's an appetite for change amongst inter-county players?
I'd have thought they were a key stakeholder in this discussion.
I never mentioned the GPA, but since you did they haven't been completely transparent either in that they haven't published the raw data. Asking questions like 'Would you like less training and more games' is only likely to get one response i would imagine.
The GPA is a vested interest group, I've no issue with them but they are only a small part of the Association representing the elite of our game. Certainly their opinion should have be given substantial weight but Dessie Farrell is more interested in revenue generation and marketing opportunities than he is in club footballers, or even county players from lesser lights, getting a fair shout imo. His proposals highlight a number of laudable benefits for everyone in the Association but like a lot of the pro-change supporters on here there is zero consideration given to the fact there might be a downside to their proposals. Imo the GPA have a degree of professionalism as their aim, which is fine by me, but why don't they just come out and say so.
My contention is that the qualifiers have over time created and reaffirmed elites within the game at county level. Aping soccer style Champions league groups will only exacerbate this. Two lower tier counties playing a dead rubber is not likely to provide much interest or promote the game as far as I can see.
Certainly I can see a need for a more structured calendar of fixtures but this need to be a bottom up process not a topdown one in my opinion. Atm the debate is being dictated by the GPA and the media, it is not even a subject at club AGM's and I will challenge anyone on here to prove different.
I know you didn't mention them. I asked a simple question in the context of you suggesting/implying/saying that there isn't an appetite for change among GAA people.
They haven't been 100% transparent but that doesn't mean they asked questions like the one you've suggested either. Maybe they let the players air their views and took note of it.
They're representing the elite of our game no doubt but it's the competitions that these elite are taking part in that's being discussed so I'd say they're a very big player. If the discussion was how to structure the All-Ireland Club Championships then they'd have little or no part to play.
I agree largely with your last two paragraphs but your opening post yesterday seemed to suggest that this shouldn't be discussed.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 02, 2015, 10:46:25 AM
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 10:33:51 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 01, 2015, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 01, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Here we go again. I read an article on this yesterday and was awaiting the usual suspects getting all revved up on here.
It mentioned that there is a groundswell of opinion supporting a re-organisation of the AI championship and that it is a hot topic of discussion among players, supporters and administrators.
Well this topic has never come up in any GAA discussions I have had and I spend a considerable amount of time talking GAA to various people. Other than a few bandwaggoners on here parrotting stuff from a few newspaper columnists and interviews with people who want their name in print this is a non-subject. Don't suppose that will stop multiple thread on here though.
Utter nonsense. I've spoken to many people in the past few weeks and none of them mentioned the refugee crisis so I suppose that's a bandwagon media driven topic too? Most people are focused on their own lives and don't generally discuss in great length the bigger issues in life. That's not to say they are not interested in them or don't have views on them but they don't necessarily discuss them every day.However, there is no doubt most GAA folk are not happy with the current competition structures. The level of dissatisfaction may vary and the alternatives would certainly be many but to suggest most are happy with the current situation is laughable. And of course, the usual tactic of accusing those discussing it of being sheep only highlights the poverty of your argument.
You introduced a strawman argument about refugees. Like WTF!!
Then made a couple of statements without a single shred of evidence to back them up. What evidence is there that 'most GAA folk are not happy with the current situation'??
I never mentioned sheep but if the cap fits....
Again, nonsense. You said this wasn't a hot topic in the GAA because it wasn't raised during your 'many' GAA conversations, I simply showed how that wasn't reflective of anything.
I then made a statement that is reflected by many posts here and on other GAA discussion boards as well as many media pieces so there is clear evidence that most GAA people don't think we have it right. But you carry on thinking we are all being led by a few journalists and media attention seekers.
Well you can easily prove it's nonsense by getting down to your local club's AGM and put forward a motion to radically change the composition of the AI championship. You and all the other members who are hot for change will easily get this motion carried, as will all the other Zulus in their respective clubs throughout the land. County conventions all over Ireland will unaminously back you given the support there is out there for your foolproof ideas for saving the game. Congress will be a breeze, u will easily carry the day. Nirvana.
Alternatively sit at your keyboard repeatedly typing 'nonsense' when someone shows you for a fool.
How did you do that genius?
This is a discussion board where we discuss various issues. Your comment about AGM's and motions is more nonsense from you. Nobody is claiming they have the perfect alternative but there is certainly plenty of people who believe the current one isn't working. You and your mates might be happy but thankfully your not representative of the wider GAA.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 02, 2015, 12:13:21 PM
My contention is that the qualifiers have over time created and reaffirmed elites within the game at county level. Aping soccer style Champions league groups will only exacerbate this. Two lower tier counties playing a dead rubber is not likely to provide much interest or promote the game as far as I can see.
Although the three games in the round robin stage of the GPA proposal may be tepid, it is unlikely there will be any dead rubber games with 3 teams qualifying and every position having an advantage. Having the last 24 a straight knock out competition should result in a big increase in intensity.
The 8 bottom seeds will be wasting their time. If you go with a League section to the Championship then you have to go with a tiered system.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 03, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
The 8 bottom seeds will be wasting their time. If you go with a League section to the Championship then you have to go with a tiered system.
I disagree, of the 3 games the 4th seed would only need to win one to progress and that would be possible against division 2 and 3 teams. A bit of momentum and confidence could be gained too. Then the guaranteed home game against the 1st seeds could lead to spectacles and occasions that would not be too common under the current system.
Given how shoddily the GAA treats Christy Ring/ Nicky Rackard competitions any move to a tiered championship would be a disaster.
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on October 03, 2015, 10:03:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 03, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
The 8 bottom seeds will be wasting their time. If you go with a League section to the Championship then you have to go with a tiered system.
I disagree, of the 3 games the 4th seed would only need to win one to progress and that would be possible against division 2 and 3 teams. A bit of momentum and confidence could be gained too. Then the guaranteed home game against the 1st seeds could lead to spectacles and occasions that would not be too common under the current system.
Given how shoddily the GAA treats Christy Ring/ Nicky Rackard competitions any move to a tiered championship would be a disaster.
1. The tier 4 side will be utterly destroyed by the tier 1 side, and given a pretty good shoeing by the second tier side. There are many ways to build momentum, but getting a stark reminder of how much better Division 1 footballers are, just ahead of facing another one of them in the first knockout stage, will never, ever generate momentum.
2. The Ring and Rackard cups are secondary competitions, which means they are of limited appeal to the fans of competing counties, and of zero interest to fans from non-competing counties. Personally I'd love to know what you would do to give such competitions a higher pedestal. Spectators don't want the games. TV and media have no interest. They need smaller grounds and need to be kept apart from tier 1 competition matches in order to have any chance of sparking an interest.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 03, 2015, 10:11:43 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on October 03, 2015, 10:03:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 03, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
The 8 bottom seeds will be wasting their time. If you go with a League section to the Championship then you have to go with a tiered system.
I disagree, of the 3 games the 4th seed would only need to win one to progress and that would be possible against division 2 and 3 teams. A bit of momentum and confidence could be gained too. Then the guaranteed home game against the 1st seeds could lead to spectacles and occasions that would not be too common under the current system.
Given how shoddily the GAA treats Christy Ring/ Nicky Rackard competitions any move to a tiered championship would be a disaster.
1. The tier 4 side will be utterly destroyed by the tier 1 side, and given a pretty good shoeing by the second tier side. There are many ways to build momentum, but getting a stark reminder of how much better Division 1 footballers are, just ahead of facing another one of them in the first knockout stage, will never, ever generate momentum.
2. The Ring and Rackard cups are secondary competitions, which means they are of limited appeal to the fans of competing counties, and of zero interest to fans from non-competing counties. Personally I'd love to know what you would do to give such competitions a higher pedestal. Spectators don't want the games. TV and media have no interest. They need smaller grounds and need to be kept apart from tier 1 competition matches in order to have any chance of sparking an interest.
It is not that long ago that a division 4 Sligo were robbed against Kerry and Kerry struggled against Antrim that year too. Mayo were beat by a division 4 Longford too. Wicklow have had there share of scalps too.
Of course there still needs to be some form of financial equalisation to close the gap further and the GPA proposal will lead to greater resources which should be divided to weaker counties.
What you described about the hurling competitions is what will happen for any 2nd tier football competition. In the short term the likes of Roscommon, Kildare, Wicklow and Meath should be promoted to the preliminary stages of the Liam McCarthy cup. There should be 2 teams promoted/relegated from division 2 in the league too. The best way for weaker counties to improve is to compete with stronger teams. As it stands there is too much protectionism for the stronger counties.
The only way the inter-county season will make any sense is when the provincial system is abandoned or given no weighting when it comes to championship football.
Having four competitions with 6, 7, 9 and 12 teams in their respective sections makes no sense.
If a tiered Championship is out of the question then it has to be a knock out system.
At least that way weaker teams have the hope of drawing another weak team and the possibility, however remote of getting a bit of a run.
Being in a group with 3 deliberately chosen stronger teams would mean no hope and lots of panellists finding better things to do than training like mad for 3 wallopings.
Even based on this season there would have been victories in the championship for 4th seeds Wexford over 1st seed Down, 3rd seed Sligo over 1st seed Roscommon, 4 seed Antrim over second seed Laois and 3rd seed Kildare over 1st seed Cork. Upsets will happen and most weaker teams will get at least 4 championship games a season giving more prospects for development.
Then there is the benefit of a more fixed calender and the benefits that will have for club football over the present system.
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on October 04, 2015, 01:31:46 AM
Even based on this season there would have been victories in the championship for 4th seeds Wexford over 1st seed Down, 3rd seed Sligo over 1st seed Roscommon, 4 seed Antrim over second seed Laois and 3rd seed Kildare over 1st seed Cork. Upsets will happen and most weaker teams will get at least 4 championship games a season giving more prospects for development.
Then there is the benefit of a more fixed calender and the benefits that will have for club football over the present system.
What are the benefits? I'm not really seeing them to be honest :-\
Under the current system most inter-county players are only available for a couple of weeks at the end of May and then from the middle of August onwards. Under the GPA proposal the availability will be increased massively for the majority of counties. This should allow more certainty for club fixture planning with contingency plans put in place for early/late exits from championships.
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on October 04, 2015, 12:17:41 PM
Under the current system most inter-county players are only available for a couple of weeks at the end of May and then from the middle of August onwards. Under the GPA proposal the availability will be increased massively for the majority of counties. This should allow more certainty for club fixture planning with contingency plans put in place for early/late exits from championships.
Offers nothing. More meaningless games.
Championships should be graded - they are at club level.
What other proposals are under consideration from the counties? I don't think the GPA version is very practical - too many meaningless games.
Quote from: Catch and Kick on October 09, 2015, 06:40:44 PM
What other proposals are under consideration from the counties? I don't think the GPA version is very practical - too many meaningless games.
[url]http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/carlow-claim-blueprint-a-boost-for-clubs-358328.html/url]
This seems a very practical way to organise the Championship - bases it on last year's Championship results and current National league results which makes it easier to plan a national fixtures programme....
One way or the other the Provincials will be kept and it's a matter of optimising time to accommodate clubs as much as counties. This might work....
I believe 6 proposals submitted (+ GPA?) and will be discussed at November CC meeting.
Plan is to have a motion going to Congress 2016 with new format to run in 2017.
Wonder will they be making the proposals public?
Quote from: Give and Go on October 09, 2015, 11:29:53 PM
Quote from: Catch and Kick on October 09, 2015, 06:40:44 PM
What other proposals are under consideration from the counties? I don't think the GPA version is very practical - too many meaningless games.
[url]http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/carlow-claim-blueprint-a-boost-for-clubs-358328.html/url]
This seems a very practical way to organise the Championship - bases it on last year's Championship results and current National league results which makes it easier to plan a national fixtures programme....
One way or the other the Provincials will be kept and it's a matter of optimising time to accommodate clubs as much as counties. This might work....
As long as the provincial championships are also seeded then this is a workable and fairly straight forward system.
John Fogarty in the Examiner comes down heavily in favour of the Carlow proposal instead of the GPA option.
Reading through it, it is so simple it is brilliant and solves a lot of the problems for counties and clubs.
It gives lower level counties games at the appropriate level before they meet big guns, it rewards provincial success and provides, for the first time ever, the opportunity for a truly workable fixtures programme..
I hope it gets support as it's a mess the way to is and other alternatives just ain't right..
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-carlow-recipe-for-change-worth-sampling-359035.html (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-carlow-recipe-for-change-worth-sampling-359035.html)
Quote from: Catch and Kick on October 13, 2015, 06:40:58 PM
John Fogarty in the Examiner comes down heavily in favour of the Carlow proposal instead of the GPA option.
Reading through it, it is so simple it is brilliant and solves a lot of the problems for counties and clubs.
It gives lower level counties games at the appropriate level before they meet big guns, it rewards provincial success and provides, for the first time ever, the opportunity for a truly workable fixtures programme..
I hope it gets support as it's a mess the way to is and other alternatives just ain't right..
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-carlow-recipe-for-change-worth-sampling-359035.html (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/john-fogarty-carlow-recipe-for-change-worth-sampling-359035.html)
Surely this is the big issue with the proposal :-\
Quote
"it magnifies the inequalities of the provincial championship. Using this year as an example, the idea of Sligo being seeded ahead of Tyrone and Mayo being handed a last-16 spot, having won just one game, where Donegal and Tyrone would have to win three, doesn't sound or look right.
However, that isn't Carlow's fault."
I would see that as a strength - seeding is merit based. Win or reach your Provincial Final and you are deserving of the seeding. In reality that's the same as now. Provincial Finalists are in quarter finals. The fact that 'a county' reaches that final and is not one of the 'stronger counties' should be irrelevant unless we want to reward the 4/5 counties who have dominated in the recent past.
Quote from: Catch and Kick on October 14, 2015, 12:31:43 PM
I would see that as a strength - seeding is merit based. Win or reach your Provincial Final and you are deserving of the seeding. In reality that's the same as now. Provincial Finalists are in quarter finals. The fact that 'a county' reaches that final and is not one of the 'stronger counties' should be irrelevant unless we want to reward the 4/5 counties who have dominated in the recent past.
The point is, that its much, much harder to reach an ulster final than any of the other provinces.
As it stands, cork and Kerry are almost guaranteed a provincial final spot every year the way it has been seeded.
contrast that with being drawn in the preliminary round in ulster (like tyrone & Donegal this year)
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 14, 2015, 02:03:17 PM
Quote from: Catch and Kick on October 14, 2015, 12:31:43 PM
I would see that as a strength - seeding is merit based. Win or reach your Provincial Final and you are deserving of the seeding. In reality that's the same as now. Provincial Finalists are in quarter finals. The fact that 'a county' reaches that final and is not one of the 'stronger counties' should be irrelevant unless we want to reward the 4/5 counties who have dominated in the recent past.
The point is, that its much, much harder to reach an ulster final than any of the other provinces.
As it stands, cork and Kerry are almost guaranteed a provincial final spot every year the way it has been seeded.
contrast that with being drawn in the preliminary round in ulster (like tyrone & Donegal this year)
You know something? Donegal have played in the last 5 Ulster finals, and played Monaghan in each of the last 3 finals.
The stats would suggest that Ulster isn't quite as competitive as we like to make out.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 14, 2015, 02:06:59 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 14, 2015, 02:03:17 PM
Quote from: Catch and Kick on October 14, 2015, 12:31:43 PM
I would see that as a strength - seeding is merit based. Win or reach your Provincial Final and you are deserving of the seeding. In reality that's the same as now. Provincial Finalists are in quarter finals. The fact that 'a county' reaches that final and is not one of the 'stronger counties' should be irrelevant unless we want to reward the 4/5 counties who have dominated in the recent past.
The point is, that its much, much harder to reach an ulster final than any of the other provinces.
As it stands, cork and Kerry are almost guaranteed a provincial final spot every year the way it has been seeded.
contrast that with being drawn in the preliminary round in ulster (like tyrone & Donegal this year)
You know something? Donegal have played in the last 5 Ulster finals, and played Monaghan in each of the last 3 finals.
The stats would suggest that Ulster isn't quite as competitive as we like to make out.
Would you have confidently predicted these finalists?
So do ye want the Ulster Championship abolished or what?
Looking at last year's draw the way it panned out, yes I would have said a Donegal-Monaghan Ulster final.