Brexit.

[Crete Boom]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Has anybody costed what a United Ireland would cost? People will say the British subvention,NHS cost etc.. but why should we have to adopt the British model of subvention and I am sure there is somebody on here with the expertise to explain the potential savings from the end of duplication of services and the ending of different tax regimes along with the huge social and confidence boost of being one country for the first time in 100 years!! Throw in EU reunification funds and development funds I am sure we it would be possible to mitigate against potential costs!! Personally I would happily take a hit in my pocket for the social boost to all of us if we could finally live together on this Island and I am sure there were probably plenty of potential economic arguments for my Grandfather to consider in 1916 for him and his family but he chose independence and when you look at Brexit I am delighted he did decide to fight!!!

https://senatormarkdaly.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/research-on-northern-ireland-income-and-expenditure.pdf

Cheers thanks for that!

[Milltown Row2]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

That's part of what we're up against, the I'm alright jack attitude and it does exist a lot in post Celtic tiger Ireland where a lot of people have short memories as to how they gained their independence.

And that's without even entering the debate about exactly what it might cost or looking at the opportunities it might bring.

It would suit me entirely financially and personally to be part of a UI.. but you're not talking to a person who's reliant on a government type public sector job, of which makes up a huge amount of voters.. or even the chronic dole merchants that would lose their hard earned cash from milking the system! 

The im alright jack guys are looking after the future of their family and their own retirement, guarantees would need to be secured to win over that person..

As the way things are now, you couldn't believe a politician if he said there are seven days in a week

[BennyCake]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Has anybody costed what a United Ireland would cost? People will say the British subvention,NHS cost etc.. but why should we have to adopt the British model of subvention and I am sure there is somebody on here with the expertise to explain the potential savings from the end of duplication of services and the ending of different tax regimes along with the huge social and confidence boost of being one country for the first time in 100 years!! Throw in EU reunification funds and development funds I am sure we it would be possible to mitigate against potential costs!! Personally I would happily take a hit in my pocket for the social boost to all of us if we could finally live together on this Island and I am sure there were probably plenty of potential economic arguments for my Grandfather to consider in 1916 for him and his family but he chose independence and when you look at Brexit I am delighted he did decide to fight!!!

To be honest, it was easier for people to fight then as the vast majority lived in piss poor poverty. You'll never have an uprising or revolution in Ireland unless people are as piss poor and living in squalid conditions as they were then.

Even with all the economic problems in Ireland today, it's still a million miles away from 100 years ago. People are too well off today to consider taking to the streets, protesting or wrecking the place. They've too much to lose now. 100 years ago, they had nothing, so they had nothing to lose.

People's pockets trump their desire for a United ireland these days.

[Crete Boom]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Has anybody costed what a United Ireland would cost? People will say the British subvention,NHS cost etc.. but why should we have to adopt the British model of subvention and I am sure there is somebody on here with the expertise to explain the potential savings from the end of duplication of services and the ending of different tax regimes along with the huge social and confidence boost of being one country for the first time in 100 years!! Throw in EU reunification funds and development funds I am sure we it would be possible to mitigate against potential costs!! Personally I would happily take a hit in my pocket for the social boost to all of us if we could finally live together on this Island and I am sure there were probably plenty of potential economic arguments for my Grandfather to consider in 1916 for him and his family but he chose independence and when you look at Brexit I am delighted he did decide to fight!!!

To be honest, it was easier for people to fight then as the vast majority lived in piss poor poverty. You'll never have an uprising or revolution in Ireland unless people are as piss poor and living in squalid conditions as they were then.

Even with all the economic problems in Ireland today, it's still a million miles away from 100 years ago. People are too well off today to consider taking to the streets, protesting or wrecking the place. They've too much to lose now. 100 years ago, they had nothing, so they had nothing to lose.

People pockets trump their desire for a United ireland these days.

My Grandfather wasn't from a piss poor backround so I am sure that was a great short term risk to him and his family and many of the poor relied on Britain for pensions, British controlled jobs like railway workers and members of the army etc.. yet most if not all took up the call to arms after 1916?

[Rossfan]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

That's part of what we're up against, the I'm alright jack attitude and it does exist a lot in post Celtic tiger Ireland where a lot of people have short memories as to how they gained their independence.

And that's without even entering the debate about exactly what it might cost or looking at the opportunities it might bring.

It would suit me entirely financially and personally to be part of a UI.. but you're not talking to a person who's reliant on a government type public sector job, of which makes up a huge amount of voters.. or even the chronic dole merchants that would lose their hard earned cash from milking the system! 

The im alright jack guys are looking after the future of their family and their own retirement, guarantees would need to be secured to win over that person..

As the way things are now, you couldn't believe a politician if he said there are seven days in a week

The "Chronic dole merchants" wouldn't lose out....in fact they'd gain as would pensioners etc....unless of course the 6 Cos would have to keep Brit levels of Social Welfare for 10 years as a Transition thingy.

[Rossfan]

But anyway back to the present.... What is May going to do or say in Brussels tomorrow or Dublin Friday?
What is Leo going to say to the 6 Cos lot?
Is there choreographing going on?

[yellowcard]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

That's part of what we're up against, the I'm alright jack attitude and it does exist a lot in post Celtic tiger Ireland where a lot of people have short memories as to how they gained their independence.

And that's without even entering the debate about exactly what it might cost or looking at the opportunities it might bring.

It would suit me entirely financially and personally to be part of a UI.. but you're not talking to a person who's reliant on a government type public sector job, of which makes up a huge amount of voters.. or even the chronic dole merchants that would lose their hard earned cash from milking the system! 

The im alright jack guys are looking after the future of their family and their own retirement, guarantees would need to be secured to win over that person..

As the way things are now, you couldn't believe a politician if he said there are seven days in a week

I was referring specifically to the population in the south of Ireland which I presumed where the original poster was from when he made reference to the national debt.

I accept your point about the top heavy number of civil servants and people on benefits but you can't cherry pick those items and ignore other positive factors from a potential merge. The same applies to the NHS argument, it is a factor but I could counteract that by saying that there are much lower domestic rates in the south (v property tax), much higher levels of benefits, 75% higher average wage etc. it is why the whole argument needs to be looked at in its entirety and I accept that the economic position is a huge factor for a lot of people particularly those in the middle who could be swayed either way.

[yellowcard]

But anyway back to the present.... What is May going to do or say in Brussels tomorrow or Dublin Friday?
What is Leo going to say to the 6 Cos lot?
Is there choreographing going on?

Nothing and nothing I would imagine. Running down the clock.

[LCohen]

Would Northern Nationalism risk a northern poll unless they were certain that the southern referendum would vote to accept a United Ireland. It still boils down to economics and how exactly does Brexit make NI more affordable to RoI??

Brexit creates a cost of not having a United Ireland.

Unpack that one for me?

[LCohen]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Take it down from the mast.....

Harold

You are better than simple Brexit. You sound a bit like Mark Francois or Peter Bone with that type of impossibly simplistic thinking

Here is the real point. NI economy is massively subsidised. If the need for the subvention is going to end explain how? If you are arguing for it to continue then explain to the RoI voter how they are going to pay for it AND why they should pay for it but not receive the benefit of it? Or if you are just going to end it explain to Joe Soap in NI who relies on it for a job/in work benefits/out of work benefits/education and health how they will cope with out ?

Or just tell them to take the flag down but they will probably take that as a grubby little insult
I

[LCohen]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Has anybody costed what a United Ireland would cost? People will say the British subvention,NHS cost etc.. but why should we have to adopt the British model of subvention and I am sure there is somebody on here with the expertise to explain the potential savings from the end of duplication of services and the ending of different tax regimes along with the huge social and confidence boost of being one country for the first time in 100 years!! Throw in EU reunification funds and development funds I am sure we it would be possible to mitigate against potential costs!! Personally I would happily take a hit in my pocket for the social boost to all of us if we could finally live together on this Island and I am sure there were probably plenty of potential economic arguments for my Grandfather to consider in 1916 for him and his family but he chose independence and when you look at Brexit I am delighted he did decide to fight!!!

But it isn't you pocket we are talking about. You would be voting for everyone to take the hit even those who can't afford it

[Jim_Murphy_74]

People's pockets trump their desire for a United ireland these days.

I have no doubt it's a contributory factor.  However, it's too simplistic on it's own.  Up until the last few years there was a move away from nationalism, but it was a move from nationalism in general, not just Irish nationalism.  Plenty more people would have seen the Good Friday agreement as having sort things out, even those that didn't saw it as managing the way to a united Ireland over a long term period.  More again accepted that by voting for referendum in the south you were accepting the principle of self-determination in the agreement.  This meant it was no longer your business.

Ironically despite the posturing in Eastern Europe it took the Brits to put nationalism really back on the agenda with Brexit.  The invite to join into British jingoism proved too much to resist for the DUP (predictably enough) and now they seem in turn to be awaking Irish nationalism.   In some ways similar to early 1900's where unionism gave a big helping hand to republicans over home rulers.

I've said it before that it is beyond believing how short sighted the DUP seem to be.   By keeping things on an even keel they could keep middle of road nationalist pretty neutral about change.  This was giving them a bulwark against the obvious demographic trends and keeping the Republic pretty laissez-faire about things.  I really can't believe that not one of them (or their paid advisors)  was pointing this out.   Instead they decide to get into some kind of turf war with the likes of the TUV when concessions on flags, rights and Irish Language (all things with no material consequence) would have won the day for unionism.  The writing was on the wall when the St Andrews was signed, enshrining a competition with Shinners into the system.

Frankly, Brexit is just the tin hat on it.  The are now riding roughshod over even their own constituency of protestant farmers and business people. So not only are the awaking dormant nationalists they may potentially do the unthinkable and drive some of their own to the other side.

I always hate to badge any group but it is hard to speculate anything other than, for the DUP,  sheer bigotry, supremacy and sectarianism is more important than the Union itself.  Strange as that reads, I find it hard to see other significant factors.  I use to think fear of the Shinners (based on history of IRA and the troubles) drove them.   However, if they had backed the UUP post Good Friday they could have helped SDLP be the only significant political force in nationalism, however then, like now, being the biggest voice in unionism seemed more important to them.

In an era of empowerment, diversity and equality Foster and May seem to be two female leaders are letting the side down badly.

/Jim.

[BennyCake]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Take it down from the mast.....

Harold

You are better than simple Brexit. You sound a bit like Mark Francois or Peter Bone with that type of impossibly simplistic thinking

Here is the real point. NI economy is massively subsidised. If the need for the subvention is going to end explain how? If you are arguing for it to continue then explain to the RoI voter how they are going to pay for it AND why they should pay for it but not receive the benefit of it? Or if you are just going to end it explain to Joe Soap in NI who relies on it for a job/in work benefits/out of work benefits/education and health how they will cope with out ?

Or just tell them to take the flag down but they will probably take that as a grubby little insult
I

The north needs subsidising. Sure look at what the British policies over the decades left the place a no mans land. They sent their troops in to defend their patch whatever means necessary. Why would any company set up here with all that going on? The north is a basket case, and now Britain treats it the same as the rest of uk. Cuts everywhere, people who lived through the troubles scarred and maimed for life cut off benefits and economically fucked.

[LCohen]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Has anybody costed what a United Ireland would cost? People will say the British subvention,NHS cost etc.. but why should we have to adopt the British model of subvention and I am sure there is somebody on here with the expertise to explain the potential savings from the end of duplication of services and the ending of different tax regimes along with the huge social and confidence boost of being one country for the first time in 100 years!! Throw in EU reunification funds and development funds I am sure we it would be possible to mitigate against potential costs!! Personally I would happily take a hit in my pocket for the social boost to all of us if we could finally live together on this Island and I am sure there were probably plenty of potential economic arguments for my Grandfather to consider in 1916 for him and his family but he chose independence and when you look at Brexit I am delighted he did decide to fight!!!

https://senatormarkdaly.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/research-on-northern-ireland-income-and-expenditure.pdf

Other than the subvention probably isn't as high as £9bn and that author hopes that GB would stand on for part of the subventions there is not a lot in that 150 pages

[HiMucker]

I wouldn't vote for a 32 county Ireland as it stands

Our national debt is already over 200 BILLION
We can't afford it

Has anybody costed what a United Ireland would cost? People will say the British subvention,NHS cost etc.. but why should we have to adopt the British model of subvention and I am sure there is somebody on here with the expertise to explain the potential savings from the end of duplication of services and the ending of different tax regimes along with the huge social and confidence boost of being one country for the first time in 100 years!! Throw in EU reunification funds and development funds I am sure we it would be possible to mitigate against potential costs!! Personally I would happily take a hit in my pocket for the social boost to all of us if we could finally live together on this Island and I am sure there were probably plenty of potential economic arguments for my Grandfather to consider in 1916 for him and his family but he chose independence and when you look at Brexit I am delighted he did decide to fight!!!

https://senatormarkdaly.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/research-on-northern-ireland-income-and-expenditure.pdf

Other than the subvention probably isn't as high as £9bn and that author hopes that GB would stand on for part of the subventions there is not a lot in that 150 pages

Jesus you read that in no time at all...