The ulster rugby trial

[Syferus]

Quick question, would the PPS have taken this case to court if it wasn't for the high profiles of the accused? Just asking because it seems that way.

PPs originally decided not to run the case.

Family instructed Counsel to challenge this and he convinced PPS to throw it before a jury and see what would happen as opposed to presume what would happen. He is on a fair wedge for this

See above

Really??  I find that difficult to believe - even in NI.  Has this been reported??

World exclusive for GAA Board.

[Milltown Row2]

From the Belfast Telegraph:

"The jury was also told that McIlroy was a regular visitor to Jackson's home, staying two or three times a week, and usually sharing his "big" bed"

Not uncommon, Bert and Ernie, morcombe and Wise, family from Willywonka film

[AQMP]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

[Milltown Row2]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

[AZOffaly]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

In a case like this, it's witness statements, medical evidence, and essentially one person's word versus anothers. At this stage the medical and witness statements would seem to be inconclusive. So if it comes down to who's more believable, then the text messages and police statements don't look good for the accused.

[tonto1888]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

what way are you leaning MR?
Personally I have no idea what happened and have changed my mind that often Im just hoping now that justice is done

[GetOverTheBar]

The PSNI are having a nightmare with what's been out in court over the past few days. Sounds like they didn't take this serious at all - 17 days to collect Olding's clothes from the night? Obviously the fella would have washed them.

[AQMP]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

If Syferus said during a trial or interview with the police that he had a legal qualification and couldn't back that up I'd certainly not believe him. 

The point I'm making is that if it plays with the jury the way it has played with almost everyone I've spoken to in the past 48 hrs, then they could be in trouble.  As I've said before the jury is not made up of QCs.  It's made up of people who work in shops and offices etc in other words they're ordinary people with their own prejudices.

Frankly, does anyone believe that they met up in a coffee shop to discuss the Ireland rugby tour? If not, neither will the jury.  If all the deleted text messages and WhatsApps said was "we are top shaggers" then we wouldn't be on page whatever (edit: 97) on this thread as there wouldn't have been a trial.

[seafoid]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

If Syferus said during a trial or interview with the police that he had a legal qualification and couldn't back that up I'd certainly not believe him. 

The point I'm making is that if it plays with the jury the way it has played with almost everyone I've spoken to in the past 48 hrs, then they could be in trouble.  As I've said before the jury is not made up of QCs.  It's made up of people who work in shops and offices etc in other words they're ordinary people with their own prejudices.

Frankly, does anyone believe that they met up in a coffee shop to discuss the Ireland rugby tour? If not, neither will the jury.  If all the deleted text messages and WhatsApps said was "we are top shaggers" then we wouldn't be on page whatever on this thread as there wouldn't have been a trial.

If the jury think they are lying the game may be up.

[StGallsGAA]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

In a case like this, it's witness statements, medical evidence, and essentially one person's word versus anothers. At this stage the medical and witness statements would seem to be inconclusive. So if it comes down to who's more believable, then the text messages and police statements don't look good for the accused.

Whoever is more believable is one thing,  but beyond reasonable doubt is a much higher bar.    You'd find it tough sending someone down for 10 years just because on balance the girl's story sounds a bit more believable. 

I think PJ and SO will get off but the other 2 being on lesser charges could be the fall guys. 

[Keyser soze]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Well from what has been reported as being the texts and whatsapps what evidence have you seen that would make you think that Harrison is likely to be convicted?

[AQMP]

Going by general reaction to the evidence re: texts and WhatsApps, the boys are sunk...with Harrison the most likely to be convicted!!

Really?  So if Syferus said on a post here that he had experience or qualifications in the legal profession you'd believe him? You'd send someone to prison on the texts they sent? Did they mention they raped someone? Certainly they should go to jail for saying top shaggers

In a case like this, it's witness statements, medical evidence, and essentially one person's word versus anothers. At this stage the medical and witness statements would seem to be inconclusive. So if it comes down to who's more believable, then the text messages and police statements don't look good for the accused.

Whoever is more believable is one thing,  but beyond reasonable doubt is a much higher bar.    You'd find it tough sending someone down for 10 years just because on balance the girl's story sounds a bit more believable. 

I think PJ and SO will get off but the other 2 being on lesser charges could be the fall guys.

Harrison definitely looks like he's on a sticky wicket.  It might persuade him the take the stand?

[David McKeown]

Human nature being what it is, if the jury don't believe the defendants it will make a conviction more likely. That being said they will be reminded umpteen times over the next few weeks that the defendants must have the benefit of the doubt and don't have to be believed and that even if they think the defendants are lying that in and of itself is not enough for them to convict. That will also be drummed into them.

Strangely and I seem to be in the minority here but I actually think the texts and WhatsApp help the defendants to a degree because I would imagine the defence will paint them as conversations of fellas who didn't belief what had happened the night before was non consensual. I would have been far more corncerned about them if I was a defendant if they said things like'we better get our stories straight' or 'everyone say she consented'. Again I caveat this post with not having seen all the evidence.

[johnneycool]

Human nature being what it is, if the jury don't believe the defendants it will make a conviction more likely. That being said they will be reminded umpteen times over the next few weeks that the defendants must have the benefit of the doubt and don't have to be believed and that even if they think the defendants are lying that in and of itself is not enough for them to convict. That will also be drummed into them.

Strangely and I seem to be in the minority here but I actually think the texts and WhatsApp help the defendants to a degree because I would imagine the defence will paint them as conversations of fellas who didn't belief what had happened the night before was non consensual. I would have been far more corncerned about them if I was a defendant if they said things like'we better get our stories straight' or 'everyone say she consented'. Again I caveat this post with not having seen all the evidence.

That would be my take on it as well.

Sure they couldn't agree on who was doing what in their police statements taken later.
If they had honestly thought that they'd done wrong that night I'd have expected their stories all to align and be as tight as a drum.
In the same breath I don't think they gave the girl a second thought, she was just a piece of meat and that's not good.
Whether that's rape or not I don't know.

[Syferus]

Your theory immediately falls down because it assumes societal norms applying to likely rapists. If you're capable of rape you're more than capable of being callous and casual about it after the fact.