Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

[Dreadnought]

Championship should absolutely be linked to leagues. if you're div 1 league you're playing against better teams and therefore your team are used to playing at a higher standard than those playing in the divisions below, I honestly cant understand how anyone can say a div 1 team are a Junior club

But equally can't see how playing in a League that is set to run without county players etc. means a team who managed to reach Division 1 and barely held on means they'll be good enough for Senior. Especially when their Championship results over last 8 years show they deserved to be a Junior team.

Is it hard to understand that a diluted League with no County men might not be the best judge of a team?

They stayed in Div 1 mainly wihtout their county men so surely they are stronger with them?

All 3 of Cavan's provincial representatives Senior (Gowna), Intermediate (Ballyhaise) & Junior (Arva) play in Cavan Division 1.

Cavan people think this is perfectly normal. Imagine Tyrone sending the team that finished 13th in Division 1 (Coalisland) to play in the Ulster Junior.

Arva lost to Drumlane last year in the Cavan Junior Final. Drumlane then lost to the Stewartstown in the Ulster Final. Why not look at the actual games rather than an imaginary scenario?

I'm familiar with Stewartstown, for all intents and purposes they're a middling Intermediate team that slipped into junior (Covid-related) and came right back up again. So for a Cavan Junior team to take them to extra time leads me to believe that like Stewartstown, they're not actually Junior standard.

So what you are saying is that Stewartstown shouldn't have been a Junior team but nevertheless ended up a Junior team, despite this being based on the presumed correct way of doing things via the league.  Have yous thought of basing the gradings off the Championship

Precisely. I think Tyrone amended their leagues as a one-off during Covid and for whatever reason Stewartstown ended up being relegated to Junior. Hence why they were talked up so much as being contenders for an AI club junior. Not for one second do I think Stewartstown were a junior club last year.

So dropping to junior in a county where league and championship are linked isn't enough to make you a proper junior team and dropping to junior in a county where league and championship aren't linked isn't enough to make you a property junior team... How do we assess who to allow into the Ulster Junior Championship?

Start by not letting a Division 1 team play in the Junior Championship.

It should be in the WTF thread.

A joke.

Image Burren, Cavan Gaels or Gaoth Dobhair saying they want to play in their Junior Club Championship.

If Burren, Cavan Gaels or Gaoth Dobhair got relegated from Senior in 2017, relegated from intermediate in 2021, and lost a Junior final in 2022 then yes they'd play in a Junior Championship this year. You realise you're not comparing the same things here?

It happens all the time all over the country. an otherwise decent team gets relegated etc How often do we double take on club results where we see a team we always considered Senior down playing an Intermediate game or such. It happens.

[thewobbler]

The relevance of league positions to championship levels has become cloudy with the split season. A medium-sized club in a competitive county could get to end of May without a number of u20 county players, and end of July without a number of senior county players. A situation heightened again if dealing with a dual club. At which point there's really no comparison in terms of ability, between their senior football league team of early May and their championship team of late August.

That said. For as long as there's a core of "non-county" players within their club capable of holding down a D1 league spot, then that club should never be permitted an opportunity to play championship in any grade below SFC. Otherwise you might as well completely bin league football and just declare every match before August a friendly.

[galwayman]

Sure it's not a question of saying you "want" to play junior championship.
If you manage to get yourself relegated in championship football from both senior and intermediate then it will happen.
Where there is no link between league and championship it can and sometimes does happen.
Sin e

[SouthOfThe Bann]

In reference to the talk of Division 1 teams in Junior Championship.

The opposite is actually true in Leitrim.

Gortletteragh a Division 3 team stayed up in Senior Championship this year.

Whilst Dromahair who got relegated to division 3 from division 2 also stayed up in Senior Championship.

Perhaps some Leitrim posters will provide more information on this?

[full moon]

I don't really get the bitterness from some re the Cavan grading. Drumlane and Denn both won and reached the junior final in recent years neither of them were Division 1. I think looking at the history of the competition it seems to be mostly won by Tyrone, Cavan and Monaghan clubs as they are stronger at that level. In contrast Cavan clubs have barely won a match in the Ulster Senior club for 20 years. Theres a lot of differences between counties in grading, and reserve teams playing in first team leagues. I'm not sure there is a best way. Even posters have mentioned here Cullyhanna are basically a top Senior championship side operating in Intermediate because of the league grading system.

I'd be much more concerned about super clubs totally dominating the Senior Club All Ireland, with the same winners year in year out and the likes of Kilmacud with more players and backing than most county teams.

[Armagh18]

The relevance of league positions to championship levels has become cloudy with the split season. A medium-sized club in a competitive county could get to end of May without a number of u20 county players, and end of July without a number of senior county players. A situation heightened again if dealing with a dual club. At which point there's really no comparison in terms of ability, between their senior football league team of early May and their championship team of late August.

That said. For as long as there's a core of "non-county" players within their club capable of holding down a D1 league spot, then that club should never be permitted an opportunity to play championship in any grade below SFC. Otherwise you might as well completely bin league football and just declare every match before August a friendly.

The county players argument actually works against people saying its grand for a team to play division one league and junior championship. As you say, surely if a team can play in division one with no county men, if you add the county men back in they are even stronger? Madness

[Armagh18]

I don't really get the bitterness from some re the Cavan grading. Drumlane and Denn both won and reached the junior final in recent years neither of them were Division 1. I think looking at the history of the competition it seems to be mostly won by Tyrone, Cavan and Monaghan clubs as they are stronger at that level. In contrast Cavan clubs have barely won a match in the Ulster Senior club for 20 years. Theres a lot of differences between counties in grading, and reserve teams playing in first team leagues. I'm not sure there is a best way. Even posters have mentioned here Cullyhanna are basically a top Senior championship side operating in Intermediate because of the league grading system.

I'd be much more concerned about super clubs totally dominating the Senior Club All Ireland, with the same winners year in year out and the likes of Kilmacud with more players and backing than most county teams.

Cullyhanna had declined, they'd lost a good few lads. This year they pulled themselves together and got close to a full strength team out. They'd done very little in the senior championship the last few years as well

[statto]

I don't really get the bitterness from some re the Cavan grading. Drumlane and Denn both won and reached the junior final in recent years neither of them were Division 1. I think looking at the history of the competition it seems to be mostly won by Tyrone, Cavan and Monaghan clubs as they are stronger at that level. In contrast Cavan clubs have barely won a match in the Ulster Senior club for 20 years. Theres a lot of differences between counties in grading, and reserve teams playing in first team leagues. I'm not sure there is a best way. Even posters have mentioned here Cullyhanna are basically a top Senior championship side operating in Intermediate because of the league grading system.

I'd be much more concerned about super clubs totally dominating the Senior Club All Ireland, with the same winners year in year out and the likes of Kilmacud with more players and backing than most county teams.

Cullyhanna this year had two former county players(Sean Connell & Mickey Murray)and two players returning from  abroad ( Ciaran McCooey and Tony Donnelly who were involved with New York previously) playing this year who were not involved last year.  They then have three players with county duffy, nugent and mcquillan who played little in the league.  If Cullyhanna had the same player availability as last year, I do not believe they would have won Armagh as convincingly as they did.  Pearse Og botched two massive goal chances in the semi final at the start of second half, if either goes in Cullyhanna could have easily been beat. 

I believe the structure in the Armagh championship is sound the way it is and this is more of a once off as the intermediate championship would normally be more competitive than senior and probably 5/6 teams minimum with a genuine belief they can win it.  Would also note that Culloville also beat Cullyhanna in league decider to win the league with all county men available as far as I know.  I can't remember the last time an Armagh team won a game in Ulster at intermediate either but its at least 10 years. 

[SouthOfThe Bann]

This weekends predictions

Senior
Trillick (Tyrone) v Crossmaglen (Armagh) - Crossmaglen by 2
Kilcoo (Down) v - Scotstown (Monaghan) - Draw, Kilcoo by 5
Glenn (Derry) v Cargin (Antrim) - Glen by 8
Gowna (Cavan) v Glenties (Donegal) - Glenties by 3

Intermediate
Ballyhaise (Cavan) v Downings (Donegal) - Ballyhaise by 4
Liatroim (Down) v Killanny (Monaghan) - Killanny by 4
Glenullin (Derry) v Glenravel (Antrim) - Glenullin by 11
Pomeroy (Tyrone) v St Patricks (Armagh) - Pomeroy by 9

Anyone else throwing their hat into the ring?

[ardtole]

This weekends predictions

Senior
Trillick (Tyrone) v Crossmaglen (Armagh) - Crossmaglen by 2
Kilcoo (Down) v - Scotstown (Monaghan) - Draw, Kilcoo by 5
Glenn (Derry) v Cargin (Antrim) - Glen by 8
Gowna (Cavan) v Glenties (Donegal) - Glenties by 3

Intermediate
Ballyhaise (Cavan) v Downings (Donegal) - Ballyhaise by 4
Liatroim (Down) v Killanny (Monaghan) - Killanny by 4
Glenullin (Derry) v Glenravel (Antrim) - Glenullin by 11
Pomeroy (Tyrone) v St Patricks (Armagh) - Pomeroy by 9

Anyone else throwing their hat into the ring?

I see Paddy Power have Killanny as favourites v Liatroim. Ive genuinely never heard off them, Liatroim have home advantage, and had a solid win last week. They are also a big physical team, which is no harm this time of year.

I've had a punt on them @ 13/8 I think it's good value. Have Killanny a bit of pedigree that I am overlooking?

[SouthOfThe Bann]

This weekends predictions

Senior
Trillick (Tyrone) v Crossmaglen (Armagh) - Crossmaglen by 2
Kilcoo (Down) v - Scotstown (Monaghan) - Draw, Kilcoo by 5
Glenn (Derry) v Cargin (Antrim) - Glen by 8
Gowna (Cavan) v Glenties (Donegal) - Glenties by 3

Intermediate
Ballyhaise (Cavan) v Downings (Donegal) - Ballyhaise by 4
Liatroim (Down) v Killanny (Monaghan) - Killanny by 4
Glenullin (Derry) v Glenravel (Antrim) - Glenullin by 11
Pomeroy (Tyrone) v St Patricks (Armagh) - Pomeroy by 9

Anyone else throwing their hat into the ring?

I see Paddy Power have Killanny as favourites v Liatroim. Ive genuinely never heard off them, Liatroim have home advantage, and had a solid win last week. They are also a big physical team, which is no harm this time of year.

I've had a punt on them @ 13/8 I think it's good value. Have Killanny a bit of pedigree that I am overlooking?

You could be right but I watched the game last weekend and Teemore didn't perform at all. Only for a 15 minute spell in the second half where they had Liatroim under pressure.

[tintin25]

Glenullin by 11???

[Westside]

The relevance of league positions to championship levels has become cloudy with the split season. A medium-sized club in a competitive county could get to end of May without a number of u20 county players, and end of July without a number of senior county players. A situation heightened again if dealing with a dual club. At which point there's really no comparison in terms of ability, between their senior football league team of early May and their championship team of late August.

That said. For as long as there's a core of "non-county" players within their club capable of holding down a D1 league spot, then that club should never be permitted an opportunity to play championship in any grade below SFC. Otherwise you might as well completely bin league football and just declare every match before August a friendly.

The county players argument actually works against people saying its grand for a team to play division one league and junior championship. As you say, surely if a team can play in division one with no county men, if you add the county men back in they are even stronger? Madness

Killygarry are one of the top sides in Cavan, finalists last year, drew with Gowna in the championship. They have a lot of county players and got relegated in the league. If the league and championship were linked they would be intermediate championship next year.

[SaffronSports]

You would all have some craic if there was a thread like this for hurling or Camogie. As some counties aren't deemed good enough to play senior you can end up with a counties senior champions in the junior championship.

I think in Camogie the club winners play at whatever level the county team does. I know the Armagh senior hurling winners go to Ulster Intermediate.

Camogie only has one Intermediate club championship I believe which means Eglish of Tyrone will represent Ulster in the All Ireland Intermediate.

Last year you had Down Vs Tyrone but because Clonduff won the All Ireland the Down champions are up to Senior level.

Armagh and Cavan senior champs go to Junior A with Antrim, Derry and Down Intermediate. There's Junior B as well and then a tournament called the Bridie McMenamin Shield which has the Antrim Junior champs etc but it stops at Ulster level.

In hurling Setanta won the Donegal senior and Ulster Junior last year. As has been said Swatragh are in Junior but probably one of the strongest teams in it are Castleblayney who have played Intermediate for years but lost the Monaghan final so are in Junior this year.

I'm not sure what you do to try to balance it out to be honest. It's all very complex. I don't really understand the Arva thing. Presumably there's straight relegation from the Championship while they've maintained their league position but struggled at championship. In Antrim there's the opposite issue with Dunloy. Made the senior football final this year but got relegated to division 3 in the league.

[statto]

This weekends predictions

Senior
Trillick (Tyrone) v Crossmaglen (Armagh) - Crossmaglen by 2
Kilcoo (Down) v - Scotstown (Monaghan) - Draw, Kilcoo by 5
Glenn (Derry) v Cargin (Antrim) - Glen by 8
Gowna (Cavan) v Glenties (Donegal) - Glenties by 3

Intermediate
Ballyhaise (Cavan) v Downings (Donegal) - Ballyhaise by 4
Liatroim (Down) v Killanny (Monaghan) - Killanny by 4
Glenullin (Derry) v Glenravel (Antrim) - Glenullin by 11
Pomeroy (Tyrone) v St Patricks (Armagh) - Pomeroy by 9

Anyone else throwing their hat into the ring?

I see Paddy Power have Killanny as favourites v Liatroim. Ive genuinely never heard off them, Liatroim have home advantage, and had a solid win last week. They are also a big physical team, which is no harm this time of year.

I've had a punt on them @ 13/8 I think it's good value. Have Killanny a bit of pedigree that I am overlooking?

they came from knowhere to win Monaghan so I'm told so could be right having saw both cullyhanna and Pomeroy in the flesh it certainly won't be a 9 point game