Mcgeeney and a little bit about McStay

[bennydorano]

Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.

Heard this sort of chat during the League, I read an article on McGeeney /the Tyrone game and none of this bar reference to winning Ulster was mentioned???

[yellowcard]

Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.

Surely the game plan, the man management in preparation and game management from the side line must also be questioned?

I suppose the things that differentiates the second category from the first is that the solutions to the latter are more obvious and more immediate

It sounded very much like McGeeney was trying to say that the pool of players were simply not big enough and that there was a problem in getting players to commit to the lifestyle required. Which is a major problem for not just Armagh but for the vast majority of counties now. A lot of good recent work was undone by last Saturdays performance. Tactically it was a baffling display as they simply played straight into Tyrone's hands with the tactics they employed.

[Rufus T Firefly]

It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.

The point you make is actually very applicable to this very season. Armagh were seconds away from promotion to Division 2 before the last minute goal against Tipp. I'd have to say that it was a league campaign where Geezer could bemoan his luck, particularly around controversial refereeing decisions. Promotion and an All Ireland quarter-final appearance would have represented the best possible season that Armagh could have realistically had.

However there is a flip side. We rode our luck against Westmeath, where they had half a dozen chances to dump us out and spurned them all, before we broke up the pitch and won the game. I thought we played excellently against Tipp and Kildare, although again the breaks went with us in Croke Park. Our goal was deflected in, we hit the post and scored a point off it, whilst Kildare saw two efforts hit the post and come back into play. A defeat in Westmeath  following failure to get promotion would have left his position hanging by a thread. 

That said, I never cease to be amazed at how much hate / disdain there is for the man around the country.

[lurganblue]

Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days.  I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth.  It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.

[brokencrossbar1]

Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days.  I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth.  It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that people questioned the whole set up before the Tyrone game and still do. I have repeatedly gone on record saying that he should be retained as a focal point of the management but that there needs to be wholesale back room changes. I would say that my opinion has been tempered slightly by some of his comments in the Irish News interview which was very much a Pointus Pilate approach in my view in that any negative comments were geared towards players.

"In the modern day the commitment and focus that is needed is a lot and you have to make up your mind to do that. We have a small group that are willing to do that but the small group needs to get bigger.

"It's not the big things that'll make the difference to this squad, it's the small things. Maybe putting the jersey first for those seven or eight months leading up to it and buying into the whole philosophy and how you play the game, the work ethic that's needed, the team ethos that's needed."

.

That to me is questioning players commitment to the jersey 2 days after a soul destroying defeat. I know if I was a player I'd be saying screw you Kieran....I'm busting myself round the field for nothings apart from this jersey....I wonder if the small group is the whole panel or a panel within the panel?  I don't think it was well worded or well timed.

[bennydorano]

Deadly the way things can be interpreted differently, I dont think he's saying anything in relation to the boys that are an the current panel - it's the ones who don't commit to the panel in the first place. As I said on an earlier post I don't think McGeeney said anything disparaging about the players at all or did a Pointus Pilate of any description. A few home truths maybe and the reality of the situation we are in -
Potential yes but making it clear the very hard work that will be required to take it to the Tyrone's of this world's level.

[mcklatchee]

Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.

Heard this sort of chat during the League, I read an article on McGeeney /the Tyrone game and none of this bar reference to winning Ulster was mentioned???

Can't say I heard management say any of those things prior to now.

My reading of it was it was a bit of Pontius Pilate routine. Don't see it playing well with the training group. Don't see it enticing others to (re)join.

Have not met a single person who thinks we got it tactically right on Saturday. That includes people who like, dislike and are indifferent to Geezer. As is pointed out by Broken Crossbar pointing out that there are problems/deficiencies within the management does not automatically mean there is a problem with the manager.

I agree that a freshen up is required.

[mcklatchee]

It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.

The point you make is actually very applicable to this very season. Armagh were seconds away from promotion to Division 2 before the last minute goal against Tipp. I'd have to say that it was a league campaign where Geezer could bemoan his luck, particularly around controversial refereeing decisions. Promotion and an All Ireland quarter-final appearance would have represented the best possible season that Armagh could have realistically had.

However there is a flip side. We rode our luck against Westmeath, where they had half a dozen chances to dump us out and spurned them all, before we broke up the pitch and won the game. I thought we played excellently against Tipp and Kildare, although again the breaks went with us in Croke Park. Our goal was deflected in, we hit the post and scored a point off it, whilst Kildare saw two efforts hit the post and come back into play. A defeat in Westmeath  following failure to get promotion would have left his position hanging by a thread. 

That said, I never cease to be amazed at how much hate / disdain there is for the man around the country.

I disagree that we were excellent against Tipperary.

I don't think there is much hate/disdain for Geezer. There definitely is a bit. Mainly in my view because he is a willing/unwilling poster boy rightly/wrongly for an outlook on the game, life and the lives of players. That extends into armagh.

Agree with all the rest of your post.

[mcklatchee]

Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days.  I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth.  It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.

We were genuinely impressive against Kildare. There then ensued in some quarters a goading by some of those who had been critical of Geezer to come out and congratulate Geezer (and him alone).

Some took the Kildare game as unrepresentative of the longer term trajectory. They could be right. Or wrong. Today who knows?

[tonto1888]

Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days.  I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth.  It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that people questioned the whole set up before the Tyrone game and still do. I have repeatedly gone on record saying that he should be retained as a focal point of the management but that there needs to be wholesale back room changes. I would say that my opinion has been tempered slightly by some of his comments in the Irish News interview which was very much a Pointus Pilate approach in my view in that any negative comments were geared towards players.

"In the modern day the commitment and focus that is needed is a lot and you have to make up your mind to do that. We have a small group that are willing to do that but the small group needs to get bigger.

"It's not the big things that'll make the difference to this squad, it's the small things. Maybe putting the jersey first for those seven or eight months leading up to it and buying into the whole philosophy and how you play the game, the work ethic that's needed, the team ethos that's needed."

.

That to me is questioning players commitment to the jersey 2 days after a soul destroying defeat. I know if I was a player I'd be saying screw you Kieran....I'm busting myself round the field for nothings apart from this jersey....I wonder if the small group is the whole panel or a panel within the panel?  I don't think it was well worded or well timed.

I read it as he meant the panel itself is small. Or at least reading it I hope that is what he meant. Last thing he wants to do is create a division within the panel when it looks as if they are all pulling in one direction as Aiden Forker seems to think

[Throw ball]

Whatever Geezer meant it is open to interpretation. He has to spend the next while explaining himself to the players or yet again any gains made this year will be completely lost.

[naka]

Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.

[yellowcard]

Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.

How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?

Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve. 

[brokencrossbar1]

Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.

How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?

Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.

Completely agree with the questions over the failure of our underage structure. It's failing abysmally. What is frustrating is that in ourselves and Clann Eireann we have two of the best run underage structures there has been on the county dor some time and we are consistently generating teams that are competing at the u16 ulster tournament and the St Paul's tournament and last year we got to the Creggan tournament for the u21s only to be narrowly beaten by the 'best' underage set up in Imster in Watty Grahams. To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams.  I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.

[yellowcard]

Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.

How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?

Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.

Completely agree with the questions over the failure of our underage structure. It's failing abysmally. What is frustrating is that in ourselves and Clann Eireann we have two of the best run underage structures there has been on the county dor some time and we are consistently generating teams that are competing at the u16 ulster tournament and the St Paul's tournament and last year we got to the Creggan tournament for the u21s only to be narrowly beaten by the 'best' underage set up in Imster in Watty Grahams. To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams.  I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.

Very true, if it ain't working something needs fixing and it hasn't worked at underage level now for a long time. I can't comment on the quality of coaching at development squad level but it is clear that the quality of player coming through needs improving for whatever reason. Keeping doing the same thing over and over again and retaining the same personnel means that the system get's stale and it would be interesting to know who actually reveiws the performance of underage coaches. It is clear that it hasn't been working for some time. They should be tapping into the likes of Cross and Clann Eireann as you say but more particularly following what they have done in the likes of Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal at underage level in recent years. You can't always have a provincial winning underage team every year but we still should not be underperforming in the manner we have for the best part of a decade now.