Author Topic: Mcgeeney and a little bit about McStay  (Read 3275 times)

DuffleKing

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2017, 12:32:53 PM »

Has McGeeney control of development squads and pathways? If so, and he put his own methods and people in place three years ago, at what point would they be expected to bear fruit? Also, what does bearing fruit mean for a county of Armagh's size and resources?

bennydorano

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2017, 12:49:57 PM »
Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
 I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.

How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?

Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.

Completely agree with the questions over the failure of our underage structure. It's failing abysmally. What is frustrating is that in ourselves and Clann Eireann we have two of the best run underage structures there has been on the county dor some time and we are consistently generating teams that are competing at the u16 ulster tournament and the St Paul's tournament and last year we got to the Creggan tournament for the u21s only to be narrowly beaten by the 'best' underage set up in Imster in Watty Grahams. To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams.  I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.
I always thought it was a source of pride that Cross refused to send their youth to these development squads?

brokencrossbar1

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2017, 01:42:57 PM »
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.

mackers

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2017, 02:38:19 PM »
To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams.  I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.
BCB, one of your current u16 managers is managing the u16 academy?? Albeit he's a blow in to Cross.
That said, you are absolutely correct that the coaching structure within the academy needs an overhaul.
Keep your pecker hard and your powder dry and the world will turn.

Rossfan

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2017, 07:21:22 PM »
Can ye change the title if the thread to just McGeeney as no one is talking about our Man.
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Owen Brannigan

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2017, 09:59:29 AM »
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.

Is there any evidence that development squads are working anywhere?

The issue lies with the quality of the coach and the coaching with these squads.  Most often those chosen to be the coaches have no established coaching background.  If you have a youth development system then your most experienced and best coaches are needed to take these squads.  In many instances these positions are seen to be stepping stones for coaches, they want to work their way up to taking minor or u21 teams in the future or establish a CV which will propel them into the lucrative market of club management/coaching.

In virtually every county in Ulster the development squads operate at best separately from the colleges football or more likely in competition for the services of the players.  With the colleges' system reorganised into a single body and with every school playing within the grades provided, all of the underage players in Ulster have three masters, the club manager, the development squad/ minor manager and the school coach.  All three will often be in conflict over the player availability, coaching methods and game management of the player.  None of this is to the advantage of the young person and certainly not to the development of a competitive county team.

Armagh has shown little success within its colleges sides bar the recent emergence of St Paul's and to a lesser extent St Ronan's while the failure of Abbey, Colman's and St Pats contributes to the overall malaise within the development of a successful county team.

brokencrossbar1

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2017, 11:03:01 AM »
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.

Is there any evidence that development squads are working anywhere?

The issue lies with the quality of the coach and the coaching with these squads.  Most often those chosen to be the coaches have no established coaching background.  If you have a youth development system then your most experienced and best coaches are needed to take these squads.  In many instances these positions are seen to be stepping stones for coaches, they want to work their way up to taking minor or u21 teams in the future or establish a CV which will propel them into the lucrative market of club management/coaching.

In virtually every county in Ulster the development squads operate at best separately from the colleges football or more likely in competition for the services of the players.  With the colleges' system reorganised into a single body and with every school playing within the grades provided, all of the underage players in Ulster have three masters, the club manager, the development squad/ minor manager and the school coach.  All three will often be in conflict over the player availability, coaching methods and game management of the player.  None of this is to the advantage of the young person and certainly not to the development of a competitive county team.

Armagh has shown little success within its colleges sides bar the recent emergence of St Paul's and to a lesser extent St Ronan's while the failure of Abbey, Colman's and St Pats contributes to the overall malaise within the development of a successful county team.

I can't comment on other development squads but I agree that this is where the best coaches need to be and not be viewed as a stepping stone as you say. I believe that this is what Barca did with La Masi back in the early 90s and what the German and Belgian FAs did as well. They reaped the rewards significantly. Schools football has become the poor relation and I would suggest that it would be better suited to have a significant number of coaches working directly with the schools. Monaghan did this and are reaping the rewards. We should photocopy their model and replicate it!!

AZOffaly

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2017, 11:33:48 AM »
Obviously I'd like to think development squads are contributing something :) I know in Tipp every development squad has to have at least 1 Award 2 qualified coach. Most of them also have Award 1 lads as well, so I think the coaching is of a relatively high standard. At least I hope so.

That being said, it is without question that the most important place for player development is in his club. At the end of the day, a development squad has a player for 1 session a week, maybe an additional game some weeks, but there are limits imposed on time at that level, so there's only so much you can do with a lad if his development at club level has been poor.

Development squads, in my experience, are very good for lads to come together, and play with and against very good players. They can only benefit from being exposed to that, and if they have (hopefully) decent coaches who organise challenging and interesting sessions, that is another benefit.

One thing I have suggested in Tipp is a sort of travelling clinic for football, where development squad coaches would travel around clubs in their division, and give some very basic skill sessions at U12/U13 level. This is needed in Tipp, in my view, to widen the net more. May not be required as much in other counties. In Kerry, for example, their club coaching is a good standard and the players coming in at development squad level have a head start on the likes of Tipp, Clare, Limerick and even Cork.

sligoman2

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2017, 12:39:18 PM »
Can ye change the title if the thread to just McGeeney as no one is talking about our Man.
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Rossfan

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2017, 12:41:11 PM »
Can ye change the title if the thread to just McGeeney as no one is talking about our Man.
Your wish is my command....
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sligoman2

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Re: Mcgeeney and a little bit about McStay
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2017, 12:42:21 PM »
Changed the title - maybe I should call it mc"gone"ee and Mc Go  :D :D :D :D :D
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twohands!!!

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Re: McStay and McGeeney
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2017, 05:53:35 PM »
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.

Is there any evidence that development squads are working anywhere?

The issue lies with the quality of the coach and the coaching with these squads.  Most often those chosen to be the coaches have no established coaching background.  If you have a youth development system then your most experienced and best coaches are needed to take these squads.  In many instances these positions are seen to be stepping stones for coaches, they want to work their way up to taking minor or u21 teams in the future or establish a CV which will propel them into the lucrative market of club management/coaching.

In virtually every county in Ulster the development squads operate at best separately from the colleges football or more likely in competition for the services of the players.  With the colleges' system reorganised into a single body and with every school playing within the grades provided, all of the underage players in Ulster have three masters, the club manager, the development squad/ minor manager and the school coach.  All three will often be in conflict over the player availability, coaching methods and game management of the player.  None of this is to the advantage of the young person and certainly not to the development of a competitive county team.

Armagh has shown little success within its colleges sides bar the recent emergence of St Paul's and to a lesser extent St Ronan's while the failure of Abbey, Colman's and St Pats contributes to the overall malaise within the development of a successful county team.

Pretty sure the Kerry minors who won in 2014 were the first batch that came all the way through after Kerry changed/updated/setup their development squads.
Given the success Kerry have had since and where they are at this year underage - semi-final of the U17 and of the minors, it looks like whatever way they have it set up seems to be working fairly well for them.

I do remember an article from last year or the year before from someone involved in the Kerry underage setup and it had stuff about how they were working hand-in-hand with the various Kerry schools in terms of managing the number of training sessions players had between club, county and schools as well as having regional training on some occasions to avoid dragging young lads miles out of their way. The Kerry schools have been bossing the various Munster schools colleges the last while as well.

It did seem that there was a serious emphasis on having good coaches in place.

It's no good just throwing something together and saying there is a development system in place and magically expecting results.

Zulu

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Re: Mcgeeney and a little bit about McStay
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2017, 06:13:41 PM »
I'd argue that developing players potential is a fairly easy process insofar as to what you want. Basically, you should be producing players who are proficient off both left and right in every basic element of the game - hop, solo, hand pass, kick, turning, stepping, stopping. In addition, provide them with lots of decision making games to develop their game sense. After that there's not a lot more you can do. Their S&C will develop their athletic ability but as a football coach I don't think you can coach a player into a Connolly or Geaney, you can only help them reach their potential.

Rossfan

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Re: Mcgeeney and a little bit about McStay
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2017, 07:11:41 PM »
I think we can take it our Man will be staying on.
Hopefully the lack of managerial shafting and associated stability and continuity will enable us to be in right good shape earlier next season.
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