Great to see these great gaa men and their backroom teams who spend countless hours traveling, strategizing, training, planning and suffering the wrath of many fickle fans come good and have many posters here back tracking on some of the unwarranted criticism they have unleashed on them.
They both have had to endure too much abuse imo and fair play to them, I think their players have reacted to the abuse and stepped it up. Personally I hope they both win next week because it's no more than they deserve.
The problem with your statement is that all these men involved are great GAA men, but I for one appreciate your support of Geezer. )
McStay great fella.
McGeeney ::) sad loser
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 31, 2017, 07:24:17 AM
McStay great fella.
McGeeney ::) sad loser
After lifting Sam? Seriously?
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 31, 2017, 07:24:17 AM
McStay great fella.
McGeeney ::) sad loser
If McGeeney was a sad loser he would definitely be sitting behind a keyboard calling people a sad los , oh wait
A lot of the snipes at McGeeney on here over the past couple of years have come from opposition supporters, particularly Cavan ones for some reason.
Quote from: Armamike on July 31, 2017, 10:27:00 AM
A lot of the snipes at McGeeney on here over the past couple of years have come from opposition supporters, particularly Cavan ones for some reason.
Had the same when he was over Kildare. He even had his own thread over on a Dublin website. He came close to beating the Dubs on a couple of occasions and basically they didn't like that one bit.
I've nothing but huge respect for the man. He took us from the doldrums into a team that were regularly in quarter finals. While he didn't win anything of note it wasn't down to his dedication and commitment.
Quote from: mup on July 31, 2017, 10:41:11 AM
Had the same when he was over Kildare. He even had his own thread over on a Dublin website. He came close to beating the Dubs on a couple of occasions and basically they didn't like that one bit.
I've nothing but huge respect for the man. He took us from the doldrums into a team that were regularly in quarter finals. While he didn't win anything of note it wasn't down to his dedication and commitment.
Any negative threads on McGeeney on Dublin sites would have been as a result of the Seanie Johnston affair, which I think everyone will admit was not the finest hour for manager, player or county board.
As a Dublin fan, I wouldn't have been particularly concerned or overwhelmed by the job McGeeney did, at the time. Throughtout the late 70s and 80s Kildare would have been little more than cannon fodder for the Dubs, but since the Micko days, we would have got well used to Kildare running us close and/or beating us. So McGeeney brought nothing new in that regard.
I suppose you can look back in hindsight and realise now that McGeeney was probably doing a very good job, given how much Kildare declined when he left. That Donegal extra time defeat sticks in my mind, as a great Kildare performance that could have gone either way, but since then its been pretty calamitous until this year.
Maybe you could say that McGeeney (and O'Dwyer probably moreso) had a higher quality of player, and that quality is only coming back now.
Quote from: Hound on July 31, 2017, 11:35:01 AM
Quote from: mup on July 31, 2017, 10:41:11 AM
Had the same when he was over Kildare. He even had his own thread over on a Dublin website. He came close to beating the Dubs on a couple of occasions and basically they didn't like that one bit.
I've nothing but huge respect for the man. He took us from the doldrums into a team that were regularly in quarter finals. While he didn't win anything of note it wasn't down to his dedication and commitment.
Any negative threads on McGeeney on Dublin sites would have been as a result of the Seanie Johnston affair, which I think everyone will admit was not the finest hour for manager, player or county board.
As a Dublin fan, I wouldn't have been particularly concerned or overwhelmed by the job McGeeney did, at the time. Throughtout the late 70s and 80s Kildare would have been little more than cannon fodder for the Dubs, but since the Micko days, we would have got well used to Kildare running us close and/or beating us. So McGeeney brought nothing new in that regard.
I suppose you can look back in hindsight and realise now that McGeeney was probably doing a very good job, given how much Kildare declined when he left. That Donegal extra time defeat sticks in my mind, as a great Kildare performance that could have gone either way, but since then its been pretty calamitous until this year.
Maybe you could say that McGeeney (and O'Dwyer probably moreso) had a higher quality of player, and that quality is only coming back now.
It had nothing to do with the Seanie Johnson affair. McGeeney was often referred to The Guru on that site. Besides the Dubs on there have very short memories - i.e. Declan Darcy, Ryan O'Dwyer, Niall Quinn's son etc.
Yes McGeeney did do a very good job with the players he had at his disposal. A lot of tight Kildare games only seems to go one way - the way of the opposition. That's says more about Kildare football then it does about any manager.
It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.
Quote from: mup on July 31, 2017, 11:42:57 AM
Besides the Dubs on there have very short memories - i.e. Declan Darcy, Ryan O'Dwyer, Niall Quinn's son etc.
Declan Darcy born and bred a Dub!
Ryan O'Dwyer is somewhat similar, although not really as he actually lived in Dublin. Like Larry and Shay actually lived in Cork. No lying or pretending that he was living in a place he wasn't! And then you have Seanie playing hurling for 5 mins to qualify!
Plenty of GAA transfers in various counties, but there's been nothing remotely comparable to the SeanieJ fiasco. I don't think there's many who would disagree that it was regettable from manager, player and county board. I think you should definitely move on.
As a Mayoman I'm delighted for Kevin McStay and Liam McHale. They gave their all for Mayo over the years and never deserved the attacks the received from both Rossies and Mayo know-nothings. Had Mayo adopted a coaching plan that Kevin was instrumental in putting together 15 years ago we might have had greater success at underage level at a time when our seniors were constantly in the shop window. I have no problem with Stephen Rochford who was also overlooked by county board when he applied for the minor job.
Still its great to see Mayomen going forth from the county and helping to keep the game alive in the weaker counties about us....Johnno in Galway and Leitrim, Peter Forde in Sligo and Galway and John Maughan, Kevin and Liam in Roscommon. ;D ;D
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 31, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.
They would have been beaten by Dublin also. . . probably by more than 2 points I would think.
Quote from: screenexile on July 31, 2017, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 31, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.
They would have been beaten by Dublin also. . . probably by more than 2 points I would think.
Agree regarding the Dubs but they would have given Cork their fill of it. Even if they were beat his CV, by the smallest of margins, could have had two AI finals on it.
Quote from: Hound on July 31, 2017, 12:02:48 PM
Quote from: mup on July 31, 2017, 11:42:57 AM
Besides the Dubs on there have very short memories - i.e. Declan Darcy, Ryan O'Dwyer, Niall Quinn's son etc.
Declan Darcy born and bred a Dub!
Ryan O'Dwyer is somewhat similar, although not really as he actually lived in Dublin. Like Larry and Shay actually lived in Cork. No lying or pretending that he was living in a place he wasn't! And then you have Seanie playing hurling for 5 mins to qualify!
Plenty of GAA transfers in various counties, but there's been nothing remotely comparable to the SeanieJ fiasco. I don't think there's many who would disagree that it was regettable from manager, player and county board. I think you should definitely move on.
I didn't bring it up in the first place so no point in telling me to move on.
And for the record Larry was in the USA and was asked by someone there to join Castlehaven. Over an hour from the City. Where he was running a pub. Work that out.
Funny you never mentioned anything about Niall Quinns son. Whys that now?
Anyway we're gone off topic. This is about McGeeney.
It would be great to get an opinion from the great Tony Fearon or some of the opinionated Roscommon contributors.
;) :D :D :D
Quote from: sligoman2 on August 01, 2017, 02:59:43 AM
It would be great to get an opinion from the great Tony Fearon or some of the opinionated Roscommon contributors.
;) :D :D :D
Busy with August football.
Quote from: Syferus on August 01, 2017, 03:22:18 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on August 01, 2017, 02:59:43 AM
It would be great to get an opinion from the great Tony Fearon or some of the opinionated Roscommon contributors.
;) :D :D :D
Busy with August football.
You can thank McStay for that.. my point exactly.
McStay and McGeeney are well rewarded for their efforts unlike the many thousands of GAA volunteers who don't and wouldn't take a cent for their efforts. Both well able to dish out the criticism too, especially McStay from his paid position in RTE. I'd suggest that there are many more better placed for your sympathy.
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 05, 2017, 12:30:08 PM
McStay and McGeeney are well rewarded for their efforts unlike the many thousands of GAA volunteers who don't and wouldn't take a cent for their efforts. Both well able to dish out the criticism too, especially McStay from his paid position in RTE. I'd suggest that there are many more better placed for your sympathy.
In fairness to mcstay, he gave up his cushy RTÉ number to go out and prove himself. First with Brigids and now with Ross
So will McGeeney survive that hammering?
Quote from: Itchy on August 06, 2017, 03:44:14 PM
So will McGeeney survive that hammering?
Cannot see why not. Once Armagh got over Westmeath I think he was OK for next year.
Quote from: Itchy on August 06, 2017, 03:44:14 PM
So will McGeeney survive that hammering?
they were lucky to get that far imho
westmeath should have beaten them
he'd be out of a job then
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 05, 2017, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 05, 2017, 12:30:08 PM
McStay and McGeeney are well rewarded for their efforts unlike the many thousands of GAA volunteers who don't and wouldn't take a cent for their efforts. Both well able to dish out the criticism too, especially McStay from his paid position in RTE. I'd suggest that there are many more better placed for your sympathy.
In fairness to mcstay, he gave up his cushy RTÉ number to go out and prove himself. First with Brigids and now with Ross
He was still with RTE when he won the club AI.
Fairly found out today.
Good man, no response from you until after the fact ::)
Maybe just beaten by a better and better conditioned team. Would be surprised if he doesn't make a SF with Ross before he leaves
Have any of the other football analysts proven themselves as managers?
Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.
Surely the game plan, the man management in preparation and game management from the side line must also be questioned????
I suppose the things that differentiates the second category from the first is that the solutions to the latter are more obvious and more immediate
couldn't believe how calm McStay and McHale were on the sideline today.
I'd have been going ballistic with all the off the ball stuff going on
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 07, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
couldn't believe how calm McStay and McHale were on the sideline today.
I'd have been going ballistic with all the off the ball stuff going on
Commentary said McStay was going mental with the referee about holding off the ball.
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 07, 2017, 07:33:46 PM
Good man, no response from you until after the fact ::)
Maybe just beaten by a better and better conditioned team. Would be surprised if he doesn't make a SF with Ross before he leaves
Have any of the other football analysts proven themselves as managers?
WTF? I responded up the page to the initial poster and haven't been on since you posted. My views on McStay haven't changed, I've been pretty consistent.
Mayo must have done some training during the week to improve that much it terms of ability and conditioning. And without their best player last week too. Amazing.
If he had kept his cool on the sideline last week and moved Enda Smith in the first half he'd have made a semi final already.
Quote from: smelmoth on August 07, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.
Surely the game plan, the man management in preparation and game management from the side line must also be questioned????
I suppose the things that differentiates the second category from the first is that the solutions to the latter are more obvious and more immediate
Totally agree.
Too much of that management team are there because of their playing career. Meaningful achievements in coaching and management are difficult to identify.
If there was a full clear out of our management team I don't think many if any counties would come looking for them. Denis Hollywood is included in that
Quote from: smelmoth on August 07, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.
Heard this sort of chat during the League, I read an article on McGeeney /the Tyrone game and none of this bar reference to winning Ulster was mentioned???
Quote from: smelmoth on August 07, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.
Surely the game plan, the man management in preparation and game management from the side line must also be questioned????
I suppose the things that differentiates the second category from the first is that the solutions to the latter are more obvious and more immediate
It sounded very much like McGeeney was trying to say that the pool of players were simply not big enough and that there was a problem in getting players to commit to the lifestyle required. Which is a major problem for not just Armagh but for the vast majority of counties now. A lot of good recent work was undone by last Saturdays performance. Tactically it was a baffling display as they simply played straight into Tyrone's hands with the tactics they employed.
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 31, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.
The point you make is actually very applicable to this very season. Armagh were seconds away from promotion to Division 2 before the last minute goal against Tipp. I'd have to say that it was a league campaign where Geezer could bemoan his luck, particularly around controversial refereeing decisions. Promotion and an All Ireland quarter-final appearance would have represented the best possible season that Armagh could have realistically had.
However there is a flip side. We rode our luck against Westmeath, where they had half a dozen chances to dump us out and spurned them all, before we broke up the pitch and won the game. I thought we played excellently against Tipp and Kildare, although again the breaks went with us in Croke Park. Our goal was deflected in, we hit the post and scored a point off it, whilst Kildare saw two efforts hit the post and come back into play. A defeat in Westmeath following failure to get promotion would have left his position hanging by a thread.
That said, I never cease to be amazed at how much hate / disdain there is for the man around the country.
Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days. I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth. It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.
Quote from: lurganblue on August 08, 2017, 02:51:16 PM
Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days. I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth. It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.
I wouldn't say that. I would say that people questioned the whole set up before the Tyrone game and still do. I have repeatedly gone on record saying that he should be retained as a focal point of the management but that there needs to be wholesale back room changes. I would say that my opinion has been tempered slightly by some of his comments in the Irish News interview which was very much a Pointus Pilate approach in my view in that any negative comments were geared towards players.
Quote"In the modern day the commitment and focus that is needed is a lot and you have to make up your mind to do that. We have a small group that are willing to do that but the small group needs to get bigger.
"It's not the big things that'll make the difference to this squad, it's the small things. Maybe putting the jersey first for those seven or eight months leading up to it and buying into the whole philosophy and how you play the game, the work ethic that's needed, the team ethos that's needed."
.
That to me is questioning players commitment to the jersey 2 days after a soul destroying defeat. I know if I was a player I'd be saying screw you Kieran....I'm busting myself round the field for nothings apart from this jersey....I wonder if the small group is the whole panel or a panel within the panel? I don't think it was well worded or well timed.
Deadly the way things can be interpreted differently, I dont think he's saying anything in relation to the boys that are an the current panel - it's the ones who don't commit to the panel in the first place. As I said on an earlier post I don't think McGeeney said anything disparaging about the players at all or did a Pointus Pilate of any description. A few home truths maybe and the reality of the situation we are in -
Potential yes but making it clear the very hard work that will be required to take it to the Tyrone's of this world's level.
Quote from: bennydorano on August 08, 2017, 01:19:08 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on August 07, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
Very interesting to note the comments of McGeeney post Saturday's debacle. The recurring themes are we don't have the players, don't have the history, the players bottled it, players didn't implement the game plan.
Heard this sort of chat during the League, I read an article on McGeeney /the Tyrone game and none of this bar reference to winning Ulster was mentioned???
Can't say I heard management say any of those things prior to now.
My reading of it was it was a bit of Pontius Pilate routine. Don't see it playing well with the training group. Don't see it enticing others to (re)join.
Have not met a single person who thinks we got it tactically right on Saturday. That includes people who like, dislike and are indifferent to Geezer. As is pointed out by Broken Crossbar pointing out that there are problems/deficiencies within the management does not automatically mean there is a problem with the manager.
I agree that a freshen up is required.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 08, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 31, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
It's often mentioned that games are all about the inches. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what McGeeney's legacy in Kildare would have been like if Kevin Cassidy's shot drifted wide and the controversial decision in the AI semi v Down had went Kildare's way.
The point you make is actually very applicable to this very season. Armagh were seconds away from promotion to Division 2 before the last minute goal against Tipp. I'd have to say that it was a league campaign where Geezer could bemoan his luck, particularly around controversial refereeing decisions. Promotion and an All Ireland quarter-final appearance would have represented the best possible season that Armagh could have realistically had.
However there is a flip side. We rode our luck against Westmeath, where they had half a dozen chances to dump us out and spurned them all, before we broke up the pitch and won the game. I thought we played excellently against Tipp and Kildare, although again the breaks went with us in Croke Park. Our goal was deflected in, we hit the post and scored a point off it, whilst Kildare saw two efforts hit the post and come back into play. A defeat in Westmeath following failure to get promotion would have left his position hanging by a thread.
That said, I never cease to be amazed at how much hate / disdain there is for the man around the country.
I disagree that we were excellent against Tipperary.
I don't think there is much hate/disdain for Geezer. There definitely is a bit. Mainly in my view because he is a willing/unwilling poster boy rightly/wrongly for an outlook on the game, life and the lives of players. That extends into armagh.
Agree with all the rest of your post.
Quote from: lurganblue on August 08, 2017, 02:51:16 PM
Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days. I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth. It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.
We were genuinely impressive against Kildare. There then ensued in some quarters a goading by some of those who had been critical of Geezer to come out and congratulate Geezer (and him alone).
Some took the Kildare game as unrepresentative of the longer term trajectory. They could be right. Or wrong. Today who knows?
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 08, 2017, 03:00:39 PM
Quote from: lurganblue on August 08, 2017, 02:51:16 PM
Geezer has went from hero to zero in a few days. I talked to many people who were congratulating him in the week before the quarter final but i just knew it was through gritted teeth. It's almost like they'd near want the team to fail so the knives could be out in full view again.
I wouldn't say that. I would say that people questioned the whole set up before the Tyrone game and still do. I have repeatedly gone on record saying that he should be retained as a focal point of the management but that there needs to be wholesale back room changes. I would say that my opinion has been tempered slightly by some of his comments in the Irish News interview which was very much a Pointus Pilate approach in my view in that any negative comments were geared towards players.
Quote"In the modern day the commitment and focus that is needed is a lot and you have to make up your mind to do that. We have a small group that are willing to do that but the small group needs to get bigger.
"It's not the big things that'll make the difference to this squad, it's the small things. Maybe putting the jersey first for those seven or eight months leading up to it and buying into the whole philosophy and how you play the game, the work ethic that's needed, the team ethos that's needed."
.
That to me is questioning players commitment to the jersey 2 days after a soul destroying defeat. I know if I was a player I'd be saying screw you Kieran....I'm busting myself round the field for nothings apart from this jersey....I wonder if the small group is the whole panel or a panel within the panel? I don't think it was well worded or well timed.
I read it as he meant the panel itself is small. Or at least reading it I hope that is what he meant. Last thing he wants to do is create a division within the panel when it looks as if they are all pulling in one direction as Aiden Forker seems to think
Whatever Geezer meant it is open to interpretation. He has to spend the next while explaining himself to the players or yet again any gains made this year will be completely lost.
Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.
Quote from: naka on August 09, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.
How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?
Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 09, 2017, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: naka on August 09, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.
How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?
Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.
Completely agree with the questions over the failure of our underage structure. It's failing abysmally. What is frustrating is that in ourselves and Clann Eireann we have two of the best run underage structures there has been on the county dor some time and we are consistently generating teams that are competing at the u16 ulster tournament and the St Paul's tournament and last year we got to the Creggan tournament for the u21s only to be narrowly beaten by the 'best' underage set up in Imster in Watty Grahams. To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams. I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 09, 2017, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 09, 2017, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: naka on August 09, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.
How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?
Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.
Completely agree with the questions over the failure of our underage structure. It's failing abysmally. What is frustrating is that in ourselves and Clann Eireann we have two of the best run underage structures there has been on the county dor some time and we are consistently generating teams that are competing at the u16 ulster tournament and the St Paul's tournament and last year we got to the Creggan tournament for the u21s only to be narrowly beaten by the 'best' underage set up in Imster in Watty Grahams. To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams. I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.
Very true, if it ain't working something needs fixing and it hasn't worked at underage level now for a long time. I can't comment on the quality of coaching at development squad level but it is clear that the quality of player coming through needs improving for whatever reason. Keeping doing the same thing over and over again and retaining the same personnel means that the system get's stale and it would be interesting to know who actually reveiws the performance of underage coaches. It is clear that it hasn't been working for some time. They should be tapping into the likes of Cross and Clann Eireann as you say but more particularly following what they have done in the likes of Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal at underage level in recent years. You can't always have a provincial winning underage team every year but we still should not be underperforming in the manner we have for the best part of a decade now.
Has McGeeney control of development squads and pathways? If so, and he put his own methods and people in place three years ago, at what point would they be expected to bear fruit? Also, what does bearing fruit mean for a county of Armagh's size and resources?
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 09, 2017, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 09, 2017, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: naka on August 09, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
Tbf I get what Mc geeney is saying, some of the players are totally committed at the moment ( Morgan is an example) some are half bought in and some are playing with commitment.
I think he is getting at the fact that the elite teams have total buy in at all levels .
Armagh are not elite but during the noughties when they were there was total buy in, until we get that again a quarter final is the best we can hope for.
I see nothing malicious in his comments.
How do we know that some players are half bought in? What do these players that are supposedly only half bought in have to do additionally to fully buy in?
Our underage over U-18 and U-21 level since we won an AI U-18 in 2009 has been very poor and the standard of player and the winning culture that existed up until about 10 years ago has disappeared. This has to improve.
Completely agree with the questions over the failure of our underage structure. It's failing abysmally. What is frustrating is that in ourselves and Clann Eireann we have two of the best run underage structures there has been on the county dor some time and we are consistently generating teams that are competing at the u16 ulster tournament and the St Paul's tournament and last year we got to the Creggan tournament for the u21s only to be narrowly beaten by the 'best' underage set up in Imster in Watty Grahams. To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams. I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.
I always thought it was a source of pride that Cross refused to send their youth to these development squads?
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 09, 2017, 10:33:04 AM
To my knowledge no one from either club is involved in any of the underage teams. I'm open to correction on the CE side but I know we have no one there coaching. The development squads are not producing the quality of players needed consistently. That has to be looked at as it is supposed to be the feeder system for the adult team. It is failing but the people involved are not only keeping their jobs but getting promoted to the senior squad. This is wrong and should be questioned.
BCB, one of your current u16 managers is managing the u16 academy?? Albeit he's a blow in to Cross.
That said, you are absolutely correct that the coaching structure within the academy needs an overhaul.
Can ye change the title if the thread to just McGeeney as no one is talking about our Man.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 09, 2017, 01:42:57 PM
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.
Is there any evidence that development squads are working anywhere?
The issue lies with the quality of the coach and the coaching with these squads. Most often those chosen to be the coaches have no established coaching background. If you have a youth development system then your most experienced and best coaches are needed to take these squads. In many instances these positions are seen to be stepping stones for coaches, they want to work their way up to taking minor or u21 teams in the future or establish a CV which will propel them into the lucrative market of club management/coaching.
In virtually every county in Ulster the development squads operate at best separately from the colleges football or more likely in competition for the services of the players. With the colleges' system reorganised into a single body and with every school playing within the grades provided, all of the underage players in Ulster have three masters, the club manager, the development squad/ minor manager and the school coach. All three will often be in conflict over the player availability, coaching methods and game management of the player. None of this is to the advantage of the young person and certainly not to the development of a competitive county team.
Armagh has shown little success within its colleges sides bar the recent emergence of St Paul's and to a lesser extent St Ronan's while the failure of Abbey, Colman's and St Pats contributes to the overall malaise within the development of a successful county team.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 10, 2017, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 09, 2017, 01:42:57 PM
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.
Is there any evidence that development squads are working anywhere?
The issue lies with the quality of the coach and the coaching with these squads. Most often those chosen to be the coaches have no established coaching background. If you have a youth development system then your most experienced and best coaches are needed to take these squads. In many instances these positions are seen to be stepping stones for coaches, they want to work their way up to taking minor or u21 teams in the future or establish a CV which will propel them into the lucrative market of club management/coaching.
In virtually every county in Ulster the development squads operate at best separately from the colleges football or more likely in competition for the services of the players. With the colleges' system reorganised into a single body and with every school playing within the grades provided, all of the underage players in Ulster have three masters, the club manager, the development squad/ minor manager and the school coach. All three will often be in conflict over the player availability, coaching methods and game management of the player. None of this is to the advantage of the young person and certainly not to the development of a competitive county team.
Armagh has shown little success within its colleges sides bar the recent emergence of St Paul's and to a lesser extent St Ronan's while the failure of Abbey, Colman's and St Pats contributes to the overall malaise within the development of a successful county team.
I can't comment on other development squads but I agree that this is where the best coaches need to be and not be viewed as a stepping stone as you say. I believe that this is what Barca did with La Masi back in the early 90s and what the German and Belgian FAs did as well. They reaped the rewards significantly. Schools football has become the poor relation and I would suggest that it would be better suited to have a significant number of coaches working directly with the schools. Monaghan did this and are reaping the rewards. We should photocopy their model and replicate it!!
Obviously I'd like to think development squads are contributing something :) I know in Tipp every development squad has to have at least 1 Award 2 qualified coach. Most of them also have Award 1 lads as well, so I think the coaching is of a relatively high standard. At least I hope so.
That being said, it is without question that the most important place for player development is in his club. At the end of the day, a development squad has a player for 1 session a week, maybe an additional game some weeks, but there are limits imposed on time at that level, so there's only so much you can do with a lad if his development at club level has been poor.
Development squads, in my experience, are very good for lads to come together, and play with and against very good players. They can only benefit from being exposed to that, and if they have (hopefully) decent coaches who organise challenging and interesting sessions, that is another benefit.
One thing I have suggested in Tipp is a sort of travelling clinic for football, where development squad coaches would travel around clubs in their division, and give some very basic skill sessions at U12/U13 level. This is needed in Tipp, in my view, to widen the net more. May not be required as much in other counties. In Kerry, for example, their club coaching is a good standard and the players coming in at development squad level have a head start on the likes of Tipp, Clare, Limerick and even Cork.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2017, 07:21:22 PM
Can ye change the title if the thread to just McGeeney as no one is talking about our Man.
Your wish is my command....
Quote from: sligoman2 on August 10, 2017, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2017, 07:21:22 PM
Can ye change the title if the thread to just McGeeney as no one is talking about our Man.
Your wish is my command....
👍
Changed the title - maybe I should call it mc"gone"ee and Mc Go :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 10, 2017, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 09, 2017, 01:42:57 PM
Benny we send whoever is requested. My nephew is on one. We have cooperated with the squads for years but that doesn't mean they are producing the quality of footballers that you would hope at underage level and consequently then at senior level.
Is there any evidence that development squads are working anywhere?
The issue lies with the quality of the coach and the coaching with these squads. Most often those chosen to be the coaches have no established coaching background. If you have a youth development system then your most experienced and best coaches are needed to take these squads. In many instances these positions are seen to be stepping stones for coaches, they want to work their way up to taking minor or u21 teams in the future or establish a CV which will propel them into the lucrative market of club management/coaching.
In virtually every county in Ulster the development squads operate at best separately from the colleges football or more likely in competition for the services of the players. With the colleges' system reorganised into a single body and with every school playing within the grades provided, all of the underage players in Ulster have three masters, the club manager, the development squad/ minor manager and the school coach. All three will often be in conflict over the player availability, coaching methods and game management of the player. None of this is to the advantage of the young person and certainly not to the development of a competitive county team.
Armagh has shown little success within its colleges sides bar the recent emergence of St Paul's and to a lesser extent St Ronan's while the failure of Abbey, Colman's and St Pats contributes to the overall malaise within the development of a successful county team.
Pretty sure the Kerry minors who won in 2014 were the first batch that came all the way through after Kerry changed/updated/setup their development squads.
Given the success Kerry have had since and where they are at this year underage - semi-final of the U17 and of the minors, it looks like whatever way they have it set up seems to be working fairly well for them.
I do remember an article from last year or the year before from someone involved in the Kerry underage setup and it had stuff about how they were working hand-in-hand with the various Kerry schools in terms of managing the number of training sessions players had between club, county and schools as well as having regional training on some occasions to avoid dragging young lads miles out of their way. The Kerry schools have been bossing the various Munster schools colleges the last while as well.
It did seem that there was a serious emphasis on having good coaches in place.
It's no good just throwing something together and saying there is a development system in place and magically expecting results.
I'd argue that developing players potential is a fairly easy process insofar as to what you want. Basically, you should be producing players who are proficient off both left and right in every basic element of the game - hop, solo, hand pass, kick, turning, stepping, stopping. In addition, provide them with lots of decision making games to develop their game sense. After that there's not a lot more you can do. Their S&C will develop their athletic ability but as a football coach I don't think you can coach a player into a Connolly or Geaney, you can only help them reach their potential.
I think we can take it our Man will be staying on.
Hopefully the lack of managerial shafting and associated stability and continuity will enable us to be in right good shape earlier next season.