Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

Started by Angus, September 24, 2015, 08:47:43 PM

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BennyCake

I said he's always a red card waiting to happen.

He's a frustrating player to watch. Gets involved in too much shite, and doesn't have to ability of Moran or McLoughlin to weave out of situations, make space for himself or buy himself time or space.

Angelo

Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland, better than Murphy and McManus.
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

COC would not be as good a player as Matthew Fitzpatrick so no, I don't think he would be the best forward on the Antrim team.
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Gael85

Quote from: Blowitupref on June 25, 2020, 06:56:03 PM
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.

Would agree. Mayo always have habit conceding goals at vital times in finals. 2016 was a freak with 2 own goals. Other than Cafferkey in 2012 struggled at full back. Higgins beside him, a good footballer but probably too loose for corner back and caught out in big games. With half backs bombing forward needed a midfielder and possibly half forward dropping back to cover.

Lar Naparka

Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Manning18

#199
Quote from: JoG2 on June 25, 2020, 06:30:23 PM
Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland better than Murphy and McManus
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

I don't think anyone is saying it. Someone half read a sentence by rosnarun and others are responding to it. He states O'Connor is better at scoring. The stats back it up. Is there anyone really saying O'Connor is a better footballer than McManus or Murphy, don't think so.


You're the one misreading it. He said he'd take O'Connor on his team over Murphy or McManus. Whether that implies he's a better footballer or not, i dont know, but it's obviously ludicrous and it's hard to someone seriously if they're coming out with that.

He's not "better at scoring" than those two. He might be better at frees inside the 35 than those two (although dontfoul's stats are worth reading in that regard). Both the other two are far better scorer's from play. Murphy was a behemoth from his intro to IC football at 19, posting ridiculous returns from FF. He has to play out around the middle now out of necessity. McManus is double and treble marked regularly, generally plays in lower scoring games, generally plays with worse teammates in tougher games and has comparable scoring stats from play. There's very little padding of stats with 4 goals versus Limerick on his CV.

Cillian is a grand player. He's a consistent free taker and used to be a very good score getter, albiet that's tailing off. That's it. People who say he's useless are wrong, as are people who build him up to be a forward of the very top class. He's never had to deal with double marking (even at club level it's been a rarity once out of Mayo), and he's rarely on the oppositions top defender. He's has a very high scoring return largely through free and penalties, mostly won by others. His scoring rate in All Ireland finals now reads as 1 point per game from play on average, and has been held scoreless from play in 3 of them.


Angelo

Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?

His ball winning ability is sub standard, his movement is sub standard. I don't think you can deny his finishing abilities, he as excellent finisher but he also doesn't trust his left side, he will 9 times out of 10 try and get the ball on his right even when there is a good chance on his left. They are pretty big factors for a forward, O'Connor has been lucky to play in an excellent team where those limitations are not exposed as much they would have been if he didn't not have guys like Andy Moran and Doherty with their movement and ability to win that hard ball between the 45 yard line and the end line, if he did not have the likes of Keegan, Boyle, Higgins etc all breaking tackles and providing numbers over. It's the flat out intensity and tempo Mayo play at that has had them so close to beating Dublin in the past decade and has really made them the only team to consistently put the frighteners on them.

But O'Connor is just a finisher, a top forward needs so much more to his game and if he had to play on a team that didn't have guys pouring through the middle, that didn't have an Andy Moran inside creating space and causing wreck with his clever movement then O'Connor's limitations become more and more obvious.
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rosnarun

Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?
I sont think id agree with that . Aidan o shea is the best player I have seen in a mayo short and the one that makes Difference between mayo being a good team and one that at least challenges for the All Ireland every year.
All Im saying about Cillain is he is the best  at what he does .
slightly older mayo fans will remember the years when we used up to 5 free takers in a match  because here was no one the to get 'Easy points'
the reality is there are no easy Points at the top Level Ask Dessie Dolan
If you make yourself understood, you're always speaking well. Moliere

Angelo

Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on June 25, 2020, 06:30:23 PM
Quote from: StephenC on June 25, 2020, 06:23:51 PM
That's the thing about most internet debates ... people retreat further and further back into their positions.

We now have on one side: COC is one of the premier forwards in Ireland better than Murphy and McManus
And on the other: COC wouldn't be the best forward on the Antrim team.

Isn't the reality that COC is a great forward (although filthy) and has demonstrated that over many years, and, his scoring record probably flatters him somewhat and he's not necessarily a better player than those lower on the scoring list.

Important to remember as well that he's just a young lad doing his best for his county. There's not too many on the board that can speak from a position of experience when it comes to IC football.

I don't think anyone is saying it. Someone half read a sentence by rosnarun and others are responding to it. He states O'Connor is better at scoring. The stats back it up. Is there anyone really saying O'Connor is a better footballer than McManus or Murphy, don't think so.


You're the one misreading it. He said he'd take O'Connor on his team over Murphy or McManus. Whether that implies he's a better footballer or not, i dont know, but it's obviously ludicrous and it's hard to someone seriously if they're coming out with that.

He's not "better at scoring" than those two. He might be better at frees inside the 35 than those two (although dontfoul's stats are worth reading in that regard). Both the other two are far better scorer's from play. Murphy was a behemoth from his intro to IC football at 19, posting ridiculous returns from FF. He has to play out around the middle now out of necessity. McManus is double and treble marked regularly, generally plays in lower scoring games, generally plays with worse teammates in tougher games and has comparable scoring stats from play. There's very little padding of stats with 4 goals versus Limerick on his CV.

Cillian is a grand player. He's a consistent free taker and used to be a very good score getter, albiet that's tailing off. That's it. People who say he's useless are wrong, as are people who build him up to be a forward of the very top class. He's never had to deal with double marking (even at club level it's been a rarity once out of Mayo), and he's rarely on the oppositions top defender. He's has a very high scoring return largely through free and penalties, mostly won by others. His scoring rate in All Ireland finals now reads as 1 point per game from play on average, and has been held scoreless from play in 3 of them.

That's bang on.

Has anyone here called him useless though? I don't think I've seen that term bandied about, the contention is that he is overrated and his scoring stats are ridiculously inflated due to the team he is on and the role he's been allowed play in that team - he would not come close to replicating them with any other county side in that time.

O'Connor is a finisher, a very good one, he puts in a good shift defensively from the front but he has a lot of limitations and he is a fair bit short of a top level forward, irrespective of what the scoring stats say.

A lot of the arguments people would have previously used from him was not to knock a free taker but you genuinely would be expecting a decent free taker to be hitting the type of return O'Connor is. I think what has arguably cost Mayo in recent years is that they are the only top county who do not have a free taker from each side. I don't think there are too many left footed players in their squad but surely they need to address it? I recall Kevin McLoughlin missing a 15 yard free in front of the posts against Tyrone in the 2013 semi final, think it was after the disallowed Freeman goal. Have they ever tried Aidan O'Shea on them, he's also left footed.

Whatever happened to Freeman btw? He gave Tyrone a torrid time in that semi final in 2013 and I can barely remember him featuring much after that, was he just a confidence player or was there a falling out? Freeman's performance in that game is the like of what you'd be expecting O'Connor to deliver but I've never seen a performance of that magnitude from O'Connor in a big game. I've never been able to say to myself after watching Mayo in a big game that O'Connor is causing wreck in there, he's usually there to finish when the guys like Keegan, Moran, Higgins, Doherty are the ones causing the problems.
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Angelo

Quote from: rosnarun on June 26, 2020, 09:15:39 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 25, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Here's one to keep the pot boiling...
David Brady (Balls.ie on Monday.) on Cillian O'Connor: "He's the best player I've seen put on a Mayo jersey, in every way, shape or form. There were some opportunities from frees in the dying moments, but they are not going to blur my opinion that he is Mayo's finest. He still has the ability and the longevity to go on.

His scoring capability, his goal-scoring, his link play, the way he commands winning the ball. They are signs of a special player and I do rate him as number one."

Agree? Disagree?
I sont think id agree with that . Aidan o shea is the best player I have seen in a mayo short and the one that makes Difference between mayo being a good team and one that at least challenges for the All Ireland every year.
All Im saying about Cillain is he is the best  at what he does .
slightly older mayo fans will remember the years when we used up to 5 free takers in a match  because here was no one the to get 'Easy points'
the reality is there are no easy Points at the top Level Ask Dessie Dolan

AOS is another Mayo player who you guys needed far more from down the years.

It's Keegan, Higgins, Moran, Durcan, Boyle, Barrett, Parsons, Diarmuid O'Connor, Doherty, McLoughlin, Clarke, Seamus O'Shea - it's those guys who have been the main men time and time again for Mayo down the years.

I think O'Connor gets the most out of himself but his limitations are very obvious, AOS on the other hand is capable of so much more but just doesn't do it on anywhere near enough of a consistent level.
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Manning18

#204
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:18:14 AM


Has anyone here called him useless though? I don't think I've seen that term bandied about, the contention is that he is overrated and his scoring stats are ridiculously inflated due to the team he is on and the role he's been allowed play in that team - he would not come close to replicating them with any other county side in that time.


Nah noone here has called him useless. You'd hear him called that a lot by Dublin fans etc, , or on twitter or pub talk. He gets opposition fans ire up with his sportsmanship so theyre more inclined to have a proper pop at him. Of course its nonsense, hes a good player, probably in the 10-20 range somewhere of forwards in Ireland in the last 10 years, with his position being achieved through longevity, consistency and obviously freetaking. Ive seen the odd suggestion from Mayo fans, generally after losses, that they shouldn't be starting him. That's more nonsense but it crops up now and again. Makes ya think though

Angelo

Quote from: Manning18 on June 26, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 09:18:14 AM


Has anyone here called him useless though? I don't think I've seen that term bandied about, the contention is that he is overrated and his scoring stats are ridiculously inflated due to the team he is on and the role he's been allowed play in that team - he would not come close to replicating them with any other county side in that time.


Nah noone here has called him useless. You'd hear him called that a lot by Dublin fans etc, , or on twitter or pub talk. He gets opposition fans ire up with his sportsmanship so theyre more inclined to have a proper pop at him. Of course its nonsense, hes a good player, probably in the 10-20 range somewhere of forwards in Ireland in the last 10 years, with his position being achieved through longevity, consistency and obviously freetaking. Ive seen the odd suggestion from Mayo fans, generally after losses, that they shouldn't be starting him. That's more nonsense but it crops up now and again. Makes ya think though

I genuinely think he'd struggle to start in most other top counties. Another issue for Mayo in the past few years has been their bench, they have 12-13 players who would be pretty much nailed on starters for any team outside of Dublin, no other county in that time would probably have that but their bench has always been light. You look at it through the years - guys like Conroy, Varley, Carolan, Feeney, Loftus, Keane, Conor O'Shea, Regan, Drake etc - they just haven't had that depth there and that's part of the reason why O'Connor is able to hit those big scores in Mayo. His position is not under threat, if he's quiet or having a bad day, he's not going to be hooked, they want him for his frees and finishing and the options on the bench aren't going to offer a huge upgrade from play.

That's why I gave the Armagh example, Armagh have guys like O'Neill, Grugan and Grimley who are good free takers and can also offer more from play than O'Connor - then they have other really good forwards who are better from play than O'Connor like Clarke, Murnin, Campbell and a few others. I think he'd really struggle to earn his place with them - that's just an example.

I'd say something similar for Donegal too, is he going to give you more than Jamie Brennan or McBrearty inside? I don't think so, they already have Murphy for frees.

I couldn't see him making the Kerry or Dublin teams, they have more dangerous forwards than O'Connor from play and already have solid reliable free takers.

Unless his free taking was faultless I think he'd have been in and out of the Tyrone team over the past number of years, McCurry, McAliskey and Bradley are all more dangerous from play and on last season's form McShane is a top level inside forward.

He's a very good finisher and decent free taker but his limitations are very obvious and very restricting.
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Maroon Manc

Angelo is taking this too far, not a big fan of him on the pitch but you must have made over 20 posts on him in the last week.

He's got the scores on the board and is the all time top championship scorer, he's not blessed with the ability that many of the top forwards have but he does a brilliant goal scoring record and has that knack of been in the right place at the right time and deserves credit for that. Whether he'd score them playing for a lesser team we'll never know. There's been times in finals where Mayo have been on top like the first half of 17 final and its been crying out for a forward to take control and hammer home their advantage but he's not been able to do that, he had some bad misses during that first 35 minutes.

I've been a lot of Mayo games the last decade and seen first hand what he's like, the last 4 or 5 years he's a different player and seems to be hankering for an argument; He's certainly not a lethal with the frees as he used to be and think don't foul's stats on twitter back that up.

As for David Brady he's a very likeable fella but he comes out with a lot of daft comments, this been the latest one.




Angelo

Quote from: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2020, 12:00:06 PM
Angelo is taking this too far, not a big fan of him on the pitch but you must have made over 20 posts on him in the last week.

He's got the scores on the board and is the all time top championship scorer, he's not blessed with the ability that many of the top forwards have but he does a brilliant goal scoring record and has that knack of been in the right place at the right time and deserves credit for that. Whether he'd score them playing for a lesser team we'll never know. There's been times in finals where Mayo have been on top like the first half of 17 final and its been crying out for a forward to take control and hammer home their advantage but he's not been able to do that, he had some bad misses during that first 35 minutes.

I've been a lot of Mayo games the last decade and seen first hand what he's like, the last 4 or 5 years he's a different player and seems to be hankering for an argument; He's certainly not a lethal with the frees as he used to be and think don't foul's stats on twitter back that up.

As for David Brady he's a very likeable fella but he comes out with a lot of daft comments, this been the latest one.

Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.
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MayoBuck

Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

His scoring stats are inflated by us not having a left footed free taker but even allowing for that his record from play stands up against most top forwards. He gets all kinds of scores, many of which he engineers himself. I pointed out the Tyrone game in 2016, but you dismissed that as a one off. Donegal in 2013 was pointed out (the 1-1 he got in the competitive stages of the 1st half was brilliantly finished with his left foot) but seemingly because it turned into a rout it doesn't matter. He got a brilliant individual equaliser at the end of the 2016 final and got several excellent scores in the 2017 semi-final and final. Also the 1st half point vs Dublin last year. 

He is also far from a passenger in general play. He was the one who won the ball and set up Conor Loftus for the goal against Derry a few years ago. Also this score against Galway last summer...

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1147582983907528706?s=19

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.

It goes without saying he wouldn't be as prolific for a division 4 team - neither would Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Brogan etc etc. But mayo were well off the national pace before Cillian came along. In 2010 we lost to Sligo an Longford. In 2011 we were about to be knocked out by London before Cillian came off the bench for his debut to help steady the ship.
Later that summer he got another brilliant solo score with the goal against Kerry.

No doubt that won't satisfy you either of course.

Angelo

Quote from: MayoBuck on June 26, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on June 26, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

His scoring stats are inflated by us not having a left footed free taker but even allowing for that his record from play stands up against most top forwards. He gets all kinds of scores, many of which he engineers himself. I pointed out the Tyrone game in 2016, but you dismissed that as a one off. Donegal in 2013 was pointed out (the 1-1 he got in the competitive stages of the 1st half was brilliantly finished with his left foot) but seemingly because it turned into a rout it doesn't matter. He got a brilliant individual equaliser at the end of the 2016 final and got several excellent scores in the 2017 semi-final and final. Also the 1st half point vs Dublin last year. 

He is also far from a passenger in general play. He was the one who won the ball and set up Conor Loftus for the goal against Derry a few years ago. Also this score against Galway last summer...

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1147582983907528706?s=19

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.

It goes without saying he wouldn't be as prolific for a division 4 team - neither would Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Brogan etc etc. But mayo were well off the national pace before Cillian came along. In 2010 we lost to Sligo an Longford. In 2011 we were about to be knocked out by London before Cillian came off the bench for his debut to help steady the ship.
Later that summer he got another brilliant solo score with the goal against Kerry.

No doubt that won't satisfy you either of course.

Valid criticism of a footballer is not taking too far, it's nothing personal at all, I have seen O'Connor play and he's not a top class forward and he's a good bit off that. I've explained my reasoning and it's all completely valid and rational.

Of course his scoring record is great, of course it is good from play - look at the team he plays in, the players he has played with and the role he has played for them. He's in that team to finish, he's not the focal point - he's not a McManus, Murphy or McDonnell - guys who have to win the hard ball themselves, who have to swat off three of four men to buy them that space. O'Connor has the luxury that others will create that space for him, that time for him. All the aforementioned were the focal points of their teams attack, Andy Moran was that focal point for Mayo and was a real top drawer forward.

O'Connor would be a similar type player to Colm McFadden, just a level or two below him in terms of ability.
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