East Belfast GAA

Started by nearlymad, June 02, 2020, 12:53:43 AM

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Snapchap

Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 04:21:38 PM
Squirm away Snap and th'other lad but the GFA which the people of Ireland voted to accept maintained  the border. I know SFites try to airbrush that but they agreed it too in negotiations.
The GFA has already been explained to you by another poster, but it was a peace treaty, not a border poll. Basic stuff.

Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 04:21:38 PM
Snap I never told anyone to do as I say, I merely expressed an opinion on sports bodies using flags in the 6 Cos.
You want the GAA, which DOES NOT DO PARTITIONED RULES, to introduce a ban on something for us in the north that you in the south would not have to be faced with. If you want the flag and anthem forbidden from use in the north, then maybe at least have the intelligence accept that the GAA is an All-Ireland institution, and as a result, the only way it would ban the use of the flag & anthem would be nationally. Yet, even though that is the only possible course of action the GAA could even for such a ban, it's something which you are not seemingly calling out for. Hence, it's very much a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 04:21:38 PM
All I can say for your name calling is that you're one of those narrow minded extremists that will prevent the people of the 26 voting for a UI when the time comes.
Now cop on to yourself and let us all express our opinions without your bitter  bile.
See you are happy to complain about name calling, but yet simply because I object to the idea that the GAA would ban it's members only in the six counties from flying our flag and playing our anthem, you have been quick off the mark to label me as a bitter, intransigent, not-an-inch bigot. To borrow a phrase: away and cop on to yourself. You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

Eamonnca1

Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on June 10, 2020, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 10, 2020, 01:11:00 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 12:38:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 09, 2020, 07:46:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 09, 2020, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: general_lee on June 09, 2020, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 09, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
That 32 County Ireland piece was added post Partition as far as I'm aware (it wouldn't have arisen before it).
How woul you make it more attractive to those from a Unionist background ?

I'm in favour of limiting the use of the flag/anthem. In my view that's a massive sticking point. Changing the rules around naming clubs, I don't think it's realistic to force clubs to re-name themselves against their wishes but could stop anything controversial happening in the future. More initiatives in schools but that's always an uphill struggle
We're in essence singing the same tune.
But better watch your back with Snap around😁.
To test that theory: General Lee, do you suggest the GAA limits the flag and anthem use nationally? Or like Rossfan, are you suggesting that the GAA continue to allow the flag and anthem be used in the south but should ban it's members in the north from using the flag and anthem entirely?
Whatever changes should be on a national level. I don't acknowledge the legitimacy of the border separating this country.
The people of Ireland voted for said border to stay in 1998 by the way.
The GAA acknowledge it too by pricing admission fees and programmes in 2 currencies in the North.
Wrong. There was no poll on the border in 1998.
That's because there are two currencies used in Ireland.

So Articles 2 and 3 were deleted without consulting the voters? Shocking.

Snapchap

#198
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many unionists there are in the south. The GAA is an All-Ireland body. If somone in the south believes rightly or wrongly that the anthem and flag should be scrapped to accomodate unionists in the north, then it would have to be either an All-Ireland ban or nothing. The GAA never has, and never will have, separate rules for north and south. If you are as someone from the south are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the sake of appeasing unionists, then don't ask/demand that others should.

Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 09:12:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many unionists there are in the south. The GAA is an All-Ireland body. If somone in the south believes rightly or wrongly that the anthem and flag should be scrapped to accomodate unionists in the north, then it would have to be either an All-Ireland ban or nothing. The GAA never has, and never will have, separate rules for north and south. If you are as someone from the south are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the sake of appeasing unionists, then don't ask/demand that others should.

I get that.

But the Ulster Council crossed that rubicon the second they took peace dividend money. Commitments were made to be more 'inclusive'. So the question is why a club in Kerry should have to remove its tricolour so a club in Fermanagh can get grants.

Snapchap

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 09:12:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many unionists there are in the south. The GAA is an All-Ireland body. If somone in the south believes rightly or wrongly that the anthem and flag should be scrapped to accomodate unionists in the north, then it would have to be either an All-Ireland ban or nothing. The GAA never has, and never will have, separate rules for north and south. If you are as someone from the south are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the sake of appeasing unionists, then don't ask/demand that others should.

I get that.

But the Ulster Council crossed that rubicon the second they took peace dividend money. Commitments were made to be more 'inclusive'. So the question is why a club in Kerry should have to remove its tricolour so a club in Fermanagh can get grants.
Entitlement to grant aid is a long way away from the GAA introducting a partitioned set of rules. Many funders offer grant aid on highly localised geographic eligibility. But there's still one national GAA rulebook that all units are bound by.

If a club in Fermanagh decides to apply for some sort of cross community grant aid there are other means aside from banning a flag and anthem that can demomstrate a committment to cross community work. And GAA members in the north are taxpayers with every right to apply for grant aid. And anyway, the debate wasn't about being cross community to get money. It was about how to attract unionist members.

So again, if someone from the south feels strongly enough about the feelings of northern unionists towards the GAA, then as members of an All- Ireland organisation, they are bound by national rules. They can freely advocate that the GAA ban the use of the flag and anthem. They can not however, advocate that the rule change only apply in one jurisdiction and sanctimoniously ask that some members of our organisation be bound by rules they are not prepared to be bound by themselves, for a cause that they claim to care so much for.

Mourne Red

For anyone in the 26 thinking that the removal or flag and anthem from the game will make the game more appealing and cross community to Unionists please read what happened when the Head of the PSNI wanted to change the emblem/naming of the PSNI in the last couple of days.

They were in uproar because "Northern Ireland" was being removed from the badge - They have no interest in cross-community and are in fear of anything that is Irish


Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 09:54:31 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 09:12:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many unionists there are in the south. The GAA is an All-Ireland body. If somone in the south believes rightly or wrongly that the anthem and flag should be scrapped to accomodate unionists in the north, then it would have to be either an All-Ireland ban or nothing. The GAA never has, and never will have, separate rules for north and south. If you are as someone from the south are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the sake of appeasing unionists, then don't ask/demand that others should.

I get that.

But the Ulster Council crossed that rubicon the second they took peace dividend money. Commitments were made to be more 'inclusive'. So the question is why a club in Kerry should have to remove its tricolour so a club in Fermanagh can get grants.
Entitlement to grant aid is a long way away from the GAA introducting a partitioned set of rules. Many funders offer grant aid on highly localised geographic eligibility. But there's still one national GAA rulebook that all units are bound by.

If a club in Fermanagh decides to apply for some sort of cross community grant aid there are other means aside from banning a flag and anthem that can demomstrate a committment to cross community work. And GAA members in the north are taxpayers with every right to apply for grant aid. And anyway, the debate wasn't about being cross community to get money. It was about how to attract unionist members.

So again, if someone from the south feels strongly enough about the feelings of northern unionists towards the GAA, then as members of an All- Ireland organisation, they are bound by national rules. They can freely advocate that the GAA ban the use of the flag and anthem. They can not however, advocate that the rule change only apply in one jurisdiction and sanctimoniously ask that some members of our organisation be bound by rules they are not prepared to be bound by themselves, for a cause that they claim to care so much for.

It's not that simple and you know it.

You take cross community money, you have to change your ways to try and become, well, cross community. If you have no intention of doing so, its basically fraud.

The issue is the rules and unionists are not compatible. I agree that changing the rules just to appease unionists who aren't interested is facile. The discussion should be about changing rules because they are dated and need an overhaul. The GAA in 1884 and the GAA in 2020 are different organisations with different aims, yet we are stuck with a constitution that is more political than sporting. Time to rewrite it because it needs rewriting. If unionists fall in line as a result, thats nice.


Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: Mourne Red on June 10, 2020, 10:13:17 PM
For anyone in the 26 thinking that the removal or flag and anthem from the game will make the game more appealing and cross community to Unionists please read what happened when the Head of the PSNI wanted to change the emblem/naming of the PSNI in the last couple of days.

They were in uproar because "Northern Ireland" was being removed from the badge - They have no interest in cross-community and are in fear of anything that is Irish

I don't think anyone does.

But the reality is our prods and whatnot are fully integrated into the games. Yours aren't. So do you want them involved? If not, carry on. If so, changes are required. That may require the constitution being amended to drop the aspiration for a UI and the homoerotic Celtic manhood shite. But that should probably have gone years ago. If it drops a barrier to unionists, thsts a positive side product.

general_lee

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 09:12:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many unionists there are in the south. The GAA is an All-Ireland body. If somone in the south believes rightly or wrongly that the anthem and flag should be scrapped to accomodate unionists in the north, then it would have to be either an All-Ireland ban or nothing. The GAA never has, and never will have, separate rules for north and south. If you are as someone from the south are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the sake of appeasing unionists, then don't ask/demand that others should.

I get that.

But the Ulster Council crossed that rubicon the second they took peace dividend money. Commitments were made to be more 'inclusive'. So the question is why a club in Kerry should have to remove its tricolour so a club in Fermanagh can get grants.
Absolute bullshít. Our members in the north were butchered. Our club houses burnt to the ground. Our players harassed. Our facilities vandalised. Zero help from local councils. Members assassinated by the army/UDR/Loyalists/RUC. Have never seen such a warped idiotic post.

Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 10:30:39 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 09:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 09:12:24 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on June 10, 2020, 05:32:08 PM
You are expecting GAA people in the north to make a sacrifice that you have seemingly no interest in making yourself, and yet if we in the north object, you have the utter shamelessnes to call us bitter? Absolutely pathetic stuff.

No, but we don't have a situation in the south where 50% of the population will close the curtains if a game broke out in their back garden.

If you want the GAA to remain a nationalist game with nationalist trappings, fine. But you have to accept that tbe unionsrs will continue to flat out don't want to know.

But if the GAA take cross community peace and love funding, some compromises have to be made.

My point is that it doesn't matter how many unionists there are in the south. The GAA is an All-Ireland body. If somone in the south believes rightly or wrongly that the anthem and flag should be scrapped to accomodate unionists in the north, then it would have to be either an All-Ireland ban or nothing. The GAA never has, and never will have, separate rules for north and south. If you are as someone from the south are not prepared to make that sacrifice for the sake of appeasing unionists, then don't ask/demand that others should.

I get that.

But the Ulster Council crossed that rubicon the second they took peace dividend money. Commitments were made to be more 'inclusive'. So the question is why a club in Kerry should have to remove its tricolour so a club in Fermanagh can get grants.
Absolute bullshít. Our members in the north were butchered. Our club houses burnt to the ground. Our players harassed. Our facilities vandalised. Zero help from local councils. Members assassinated by the army/UDR/Loyalists/RUC. Have never seen such a warped idiotic post.

What possible relevance is that little history lesson to the topic in hand?

The Ulster Council signed up to various schemes and took money on the basis the GAA in the 6 would become more cross community. What was peoples expectation? That nothing could or would change?

Giving out that southerners are somehow trying to introduce partition is creating the partition you are whining about.

general_lee

QuoteWhat possible relevance is that little history lesson to the topic in hand?

The Ulster Council signed up to various schemes and took money on the basis the GAA in the 6 would become more cross community. What was peoples expectation? That nothing could or would change?

Giving out that southerners are somehow trying to introduce partition is creating the partition you are whining about.
The relevance is that's the reason why there is a PEACE fund! But I don't recall the GAA being under an obligation to change its rule book. It has plenty of cross-community initiatives that were funded because of this along with Ulster Rugby and the IFA. So for you to suggest that the rules should change for 6/32 counties is absolute bollòx. If the GAA is going to change it has to do it on an island-wide basis

Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: general_lee on June 10, 2020, 10:42:16 PM
QuoteWhat possible relevance is that little history lesson to the topic in hand?

The Ulster Council signed up to various schemes and took money on the basis the GAA in the 6 would become more cross community. What was peoples expectation? That nothing could or would change?

Giving out that southerners are somehow trying to introduce partition is creating the partition you are whining about.
The relevance is that's the reason why there is a PEACE fund! But I don't recall the GAA being under an obligation to change its rule book. It has plenty of cross-community initiatives that were funded because of this along with Ulster Rugby and the IFA. So for you to suggest that the rules should change for 6/32 counties is absolute bollòx. If the GAA is going to change it has to do it on an island-wide basis

I didn't suggest that, nor even close. The Ulster council opened that door when they took outreach money.

But rugby and soccer did change. Far more nationalists migrated towords rugby than unionists the GAA. And I am far from the IFA's biggest fan, but they are trying. Genuine effort to reach out, but a bottle job on flags and anthems. Sound familiar?

But the mere suggestion that the GAA consider changing, outrage.

Would amending the constitution to drop the political stuff and allowing flags and anthems to be a local decision be a problem? If the answer is yes, you lose all right to criticise the IFA.

Snapchap

#208
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 10:22:18 PM
It's not that simple and you know it.
That the GAA is a 32 county organisation and operates on a one jurisdiction footing, means it never has and never can have differing rules for the north and the south IS that simple. Aside from all that, can you imagine the level of hurt and offence that would be caused to proud Irish GAA people in the north if the GAA, of all organisations, ever decided to tell us in the six counties that we cannot use our flag or anthem and that those things are only for people in the south?

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 10:22:18 PM
You take cross community money, you have to change your ways to try and become, well, cross community. If you have no intention of doing so, its basically fraud.
Again, you seem to be fixating on the notion of grant aid. This discussion isn't about grant aid. But the flag and anthem ARE currently allowed and yet many clubs and county boards do some fantastic cross community work. It's a bit fanciful to suggest that and grant aid they receive for such work is basically fraudulent so long as the GAA uses the Irish flag and anthem.

Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on June 10, 2020, 10:22:18 PM
The issue is the rules and unionists are not compatible. I agree that changing the rules just to appease unionists who aren't interested is facile. The discussion should be about changing rules because they are dated and need an overhaul. The GAA in 1884 and the GAA in 2020 are different organisations with different aims, yet we are stuck with a constitution that is more political than sporting. Time to rewrite it because it needs rewriting. If unionists fall in line as a result, thats nice.
If people want to talk about changing rules to ban the flag and anthem, then so be it. But, yet again it has to be said, the GAA is an All-Ireland organisation. As an All-Ireland organisation, it naturally follows that its rules apply to All-Ireland. You say the current rules are too polititical. Well any attempt to ban only it's members in the north from using the Irish flag and anthem would be as politically sensitive/explosive/offensive/damaging a move as the GAA could ever make towards its membership in the north that has already come through quite enough in the defence of our right to our Irishness.

Baile Brigín 2

Where are you getting this ban the anthem in the north notion from? Its a total strawman.