Official Gooners Thread - A New Hope

[Aaron Boone]

Arsenal Fan TV will be some craic tonight 

https://youtu.be/NeM4c7lTeMY

A couple of Bayern fans smirking in the background!

Perhaps Arsenal need a change to move back up to the very top level, but the level of ingratitude towards Wenger and what he has built that club into is staggering!

It's he great unknown getting rid of Wenger. Arsenal FanTV will appreciate him more if the club are struggling in 7th or 8th when he goes.

[Dinny Breen]

Wenger is just a class act. An would be on my list for any fictitious dinner party.

The point is that professional sport is entertainment, it has always been soap opera, the problem with Arsenal and Wenger is that we are watching the same soap opera for the last 6 years or more. Arsenal needs a reboot, yes the odds are that reboot will fail but Arsenal need something different. And the longer Wenger stays without success the more his reputation becomes tarnished. Wenger is very popular in the media now and even with rival fans, I preferred it when he wasn't and was know as Whinging Wenger and the blind professor and when the headlines were about Arsenal's disgraceful disciplinary record and not their pretty but ultimately sterile football. 

[seafoid]

Wenger is just a class act. An would be on my list for any fictitious dinner party.

The point is that professional sport is entertainment, it has always been soap opera, the problem with Arsenal and Wenger is that we are watching the same soap opera for the last 6 years or more. Arsenal needs a reboot, yes the odds are that reboot will fail but Arsenal need something different. And the longer Wenger stays without success the more his reputation becomes tarnished. Wenger is very popular in the media now and even with rival fans, I preferred it when he wasn't and was know as Whinging Wenger and the blind professor and when the headlines were about Arsenal's disgraceful disciplinary record and not their pretty but ultimately sterile football.

Wenger is Sean Boylan Mark 2 . Perhaps Hardy or the Juice could write an open letter to the Arsenal owner

[AZOffaly]

I'm curious about that statement Dinny, re entertainment. Is professional sports really entertainment, or is it a results based enterprise where fans are so emotionally invested in their team that they just want to see them win, and the players and management are rewarded based on success.

I know, as a Liverpool fan, that I love when Liverpool play open, attacking, fast football, but I hate it when they lose. So would I prefer 38 sterile 1-0 wins and a Premier League trophy, or would I prefer Brendan Rodgers 2013/2014 or Klopps Geggenpress, assuming it means a 2nd, 3rd or 4th place finish? I hate to say it, but the knots in my stomach when Liverpool are about to play are not caused by a desire to see them play with style. I want them to win. Winning with style is the perfect scenario.

I understand that for neutrals, professional sport is all about the entertainment value, but for the vested interests, I think sport, all sport at the top level really, is about winning or about seeing your team win.

The thing about Arsenal, for me as an outsider, is not that they are not entertaining, it's that they don't seem to have the intestinal fortitude to win as much as their talent should win. And that's really back to the nub of professional sport. As Al Davis said to the Raiders, Just Win Baby.

If Wenger was winning, there'd be none of this, but he's not, and the pattern of each year is so similar that it's obviously a systems failure.

[screenexile]

It's of his own making. . . when he began in England he had strong characters and leaders in his team, lads who could lift the team when the chips were down like Campbell/Keown/Dickson/Viera/Petit/Bergkamp.

You need that in a successful team and since his success he has looked to bring in young lads he can mould rather than bring in one or two more experienced heads every couple of years who will add a bit of steel to the obvious flair the team has. I think around the time they had Van Persie and Fabregas in the team if they had signed an experience defensive midfielder and centre back they could have won a lot more!!

[Fuzzman]

If you look at most of the more successful soccer teams in European football, a lot of them change their manager every 3 or 4 years. Juventus have won the Series A title the last 5 seasons and look odds on to win in this year and they've had 4 different managers since 2010 including Conte.
The two big Spanish clubs change their managers very regularly, even if they are winning trophies.
Chelsea and Man City have won titles in recent years and regularly change their manager.
Even the Germans are at it bringing in Dutch and Spanish managers over the last 5 years.

Many of us might think it's crazy but it seems to bring them success and I suppose Arsenal fans feel totally frustrated that they such a huge club who have improved off the pitch but are not really showing signs of improving on the pitch.
Other teams are spending crazy money every year bringing in and selling big players yet they are not.
It's like a few of those fans said that the board are happy with Arsenal being a successful business qualifying every year for the CL and winning the odd FA cup, bringing in decent money for their shareholders.

I would imagine most of the fans would love to see Wenger leave and take the risk of falling out of the top 4 than continue year after year stumbling at the same stages. Imagine how the Arsenal fans would feel if Utd win the League cup, FA cup and Europa cup this season.

[Dinny Breen]

I'm curious about that statement Dinny, re entertainment. Is professional sports really entertainment, or is it a results based enterprise where fans are so emotionally invested in their team that they just want to see them win, and the players and management are rewarded based on success.

Do you only watch Liverpool or would you sit down and watch two teams in which you have no emotional investment to be entertained?

[AZOffaly]

I'm curious about that statement Dinny, re entertainment. Is professional sports really entertainment, or is it a results based enterprise where fans are so emotionally invested in their team that they just want to see them win, and the players and management are rewarded based on success.

Do you only watch Liverpool or would you sit down and watch two teams in which you have no emotional investment to be entertained?

Yeah, I get that. I referred to that later in my post. But you are an Arsenal fan, talking about the Arsenal manager, on the Arsenal thread, so I'm assuming you are referring to watching Arsenal as entertainment.

[Maroon Manc]

I almost feel sorry for Wenger, its not his fault the Arsenal board haven't a clue about football matters but in fairness to them their more than happy with top 4 finishes every season although this could be the season when they finally wake up. Its 13 years since they won a title and that was probably the last time they were genuinely in a title race with a few weeks to go. What must frustrate Arsenal fans more than anything is his tactics, time and time again Arsenal get found out against the best teams and lost count of the amount of hidings they've had during that time. I don't think it matters what players he buys anymore, he's not been up to the job of challenging for top honours for well over a decade.

Arsenal are making some of same mistakes United made when Fergie left, looks like on paper he'll leave a good squad but the reality is that their short on really top players and their best player by a mile probably will leave this summer.

It could be a tough few years for Arsenal if they change their manager, he'll certainly have money to spend but as it stands their certainly not prepared to pay the wages required to entice the best players. They do have a huge wage bill but thats down to the size of their squad.

[screenexile]

It seems to have escaped Wenger's memory that British teams who have won the Champions League have done so largely by playing a compact counter attacking game. . . I've yet to remember a time Arsenal have done this in Europe home or away!

[The Stallion]

They've done it on plenty of occasions.

[The Stallion]

Some of which are mentioned below :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11944977/Arsenal-have-a-new-blueprint-for-success-after-beating-Bayern-Munich.html

[Dinny Breen]

I'm curious about that statement Dinny, re entertainment. Is professional sports really entertainment, or is it a results based enterprise where fans are so emotionally invested in their team that they just want to see them win, and the players and management are rewarded based on success.

Do you only watch Liverpool or would you sit down and watch two teams in which you have no emotional investment to be entertained?

Yeah, I get that. I referred to that later in my post. But you are an Arsenal fan, talking about the Arsenal manager, on the Arsenal thread, so I'm assuming you are referring to watching Arsenal as entertainment.

Sport is a bridge between reality and fantasy, for a fan there are no real life consequences to watching your team win or lose, life will carry on regardless. The same logic can be applied to the Cinema, Theater or Gaming. So I watch Arsenal for escapism and yes I want to be entertained. Are entertainment and emotional investment mutually exclusive I don't think so. When I was younger it was out-coming orientated so the entertainment was watching Arsenal win 1-0 and it was great, then Wenger came along and you could win with style and panache and it too was great. Then the stadium years, entertaining football, young players to get behind no trophies but a real vision. Now though that vision has been shattered, the football is not as good and there is no trophies to fall back on. The new process is basically repetitive and boring and just not entertaining.

[ONeill]

I'm curious about that statement Dinny, re entertainment. Is professional sports really entertainment, or is it a results based enterprise where fans are so emotionally invested in their team that they just want to see them win, and the players and management are rewarded based on success.

In my exerpience, the older you get the more you appreciate the beauty of sport and want to be entertained - or see players giving everything to be the best they can.

As a teen or 20-something you didn't care as it was all fodder for banter with rivals.

If Arsenal were bursting a gut to finish in the top for, fighting like demons to overachieve then I'd probably take it. But 10 years of capitulations and lacklustre weeks in a row by players who can give a lot more to the cause is mindnumbing. Look back at Gallas sitting on the field after one such implosion...sorta started around then.

The players now aren't afraid of the manager or of losing their starting berth.

Wenger was the greatest thing to happen to Arsenal since Chapman. The stars and planets aligned that day in 96. France were on the cusp of becoming world powerhouses. He nabbed Vieira, Henry, Wiltord, Petit, Anelka Pires. He inherited a solid defence and made them better players all around. Great buys in Overmars, Lauren, Campbell, Toure, Lehmann, Edu, Ljungberg etc. He was the best out there alongside Fergie. Then something happened. He knew the great side was breaking up and had ready-made replacements in Van Persie, Fabgregas, Clichy, Sagna, Szczesney and to an extent Rosicky.

I don't know how much of the the problem was the stadium. Players started to leave at their peak to earn more elsewhere. Cole, Fabregas, Hleb, Clichy, Sagna....and he was replacing them with absolute tripe in Silvestre, Walcott, Jenkinson....good players seemed to go backwards - Szczesney, Adebayor, Eduardo, Toure, Eboue, Denilson (some injury, some maybe just didn't have it to progress).

But it can't just be down to money. The great team of the early 2000s weren't all blockbuster buys. He was famed for finding diamonds in the rough. It all stopped.

I remember the middlin days and don't have a sense of entitlement. But you have to be a fan to understand the soul-destroying nature of a repetitively disappointing season. Arsenal win more than most sides (I think they recently won 2 consecutive calendar years) but the winning isn't enjoyable any more. You know at the end of it you'll be pushed over by decent sides or when it comes to crunch moments in a season, year after year. The famed mentality is non-existent.

[AZOffaly]

I'd say I'm as old/older than both of ye, and I can honestly say that when a neutral, I want to be entertained. When a vested interest, I just want to win. And as a fan of the various teams I support, my mood is absolutely affected by the results they get.