The ulster rugby trial

[GetOverTheBar]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Only thing I could think of is that she possibly thought she was video'd by Dara Florence in the room, would people then delete that video if they knew it was evidence in a rape trial? Had been thinking something like that myself after reading she rang the girls (or one of) the next morning etc.

Who knows, it's a valid point you raise. I don't know why anyone would do this falsely.

[nrico2006]

I think Syf has called this one correctly, for a change

the "mountain of medical evidence" he was telling us all about turned out to be incorrect.

How can medical evidence turn out to be "incorrect"?

A "full laceration tear" to the vagina which was still bleeding 14 hours later, along with bruising at the entrance to the vagina, these are not normal things. We know this was inflicted by Jackson and that it was not menstrual.

The overall narrative I've taken from the trial so far has been that the complainant's story is still holding up very well and that it appears highly likely that the four defendants engaged in a cover up.

Credibility of the protagonists is key. The complainant's credibility is still high. The credibility of the defendants, not so much.

I find it literally incredible that they met up the next lunchtime, shortly after they had been engaging in WhatsApp exchanges proclaiming themselves "top shaggers" and "legends", and not much more than an hour after Harrison had been informed that what happened was not consensual, and did not discuss the events of the previous night.

How is the complainant's credibility at this point any higher than the defendant's?

Because her story has almost completely held up.

We'll know more after today, but there already appear to be numerous inconsistencies in the accounts of the defendants and too many coincidences to believe there wasn't a cover up and porky pies told by them.

There has been a few inconsistencies/lies with both parties so far though.  The story of an individual is always likely to line up better than 3 together, especially given the fact that drink was involved.

[nrico2006]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Only thing I could think of is that she possibly thought she was video'd by Dara Florence in the room, would people then delete that video if they knew it was evidence in a rape trial? Had been thinking something like that myself after reading she rang the girls (or one of) the next morning etc.

Who knows, it's a valid point you raise. I don't know why anyone would do this falsely.

The thought of being recorded would be the main reason, you would assume but there are people out there with twisted minds who make up rape allegations every day.  What are their motivations? 

[Milltown Row2]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Listen if she was raped its the only thing to do!

The other motives could have been she was pushed into it, or said something and it got legs and before she knows shes well over her head and beyond pulling back, or very possibly thinking there was a video (or she thought there was) of the incident and is completely embarrassedif it every comes out.

The only ones that know were there that night, being a father of two girls (young women now!)  I hope they never find themselves having to embark down that road..

[AQMP]

sid, what about the doctor's statement that she told him she was raped twice, including once on her back?
This then changed to being forced to give Olding oral in her police statement, which I think will be read out today?
Finally, the witness account of Olding's hands by his side wouldn't tally with her being forced.

There seems to be inconsistencies all over the place, and the defence isn't clear yet. I know they are saying consensual, but as you said there appears to be inconsistencies there too.

It's very confusing. I don't envy the jury their job.

What the complainant said to Dr. Lavery about Olding vaginally raping her is in my view one of only two real cards the defence have to play. My understanding, although I'm open to correction on this, is that that was not part of her statement to police.

Rape victims can suffer from fragmented and imperfect memory and trauma, and the complainant's account to Dr. Lavery was only a matter of hours after the events when she would still have been in shock and likely heavily sleep-deprived.

Olding's hands are highly unlikely to have stayed still during the events and are likely to have moved several times between his side and the back of the complainant's head and likely elsewhere. Dara Florence saw what was happening for a matter of seconds so what she saw was effectively a snapshot in time of where Olding's hands were. It's easy to see how there could be confusion between the complainant's account of where Olding's hands were in that snapshot in time and Florence's. Given the complainant's account that she was effectively "frozen", Olding could easily have removed his hands for a time and the complainant's head might not have moved. Also, her turning her head away doesn't mean she wasn't still effectively frozen.

Jackson's semen not being found in the swab from her vagina, which we learned of yesterday, is also a plus for the defence, though it doesn't mean Jackson didn't insert his penis into her vagina.

This is only my personal theory, but I suspect Jackson, while he had intent, might not have had much lead in his pencil and that's why he resorted to digital penetration.

The amount of drink taken over that period, what 7pm through to 3am at least in the morning, had there been drugs taken also? Not sure on the last one but hey the young ones nowadays!! I'd say her memory and the rugby lads memories are slightly off..

This is coming down to her word against theirs.. and is that enough to convict?

In a lot cases e.g. historical abuse, it can be.  Say a woman alleges a celebrity raped her in 1980, there are no witnesses, no forensics etc, it's who the jury believes.  If it comes down to that, then the accused will have to give evidence, if they don't the jury only have the alleged victim's story.  Speaking to a couple of solicitors over the weekend, the word is that she came across very well in the witness box.

But it's very difficult to come to a conclusive decision when you don't hear all the evidence.  Like everyone else on here my gut tells me something but you can't convict or acquit on your gut reaction.  I'd still say this case is 50/50 at the moment.

[MoChara]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Listen if she was raped its the only thing to do!

The other motives could have been she was pushed into it, or said something and it got legs and before she knows shes well over her head and beyond pulling back, or very possibly thinking there was a video (or she thought there was) of the incident and is completely embarrassedif it every comes out.

The only ones that know were there that night, being a father of two girls (young women now!)  I hope they never find themselves having to embark down that road..

The possibility of a video I don't think leads to the pronouncement of a rape, surely if it was consensual it would more likely expose you as a liar. Unless I suppose it is taken with your other point of a knee jerk reaction that got out of hand quickly before any thought was involved.

[Milltown Row2]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Listen if she was raped its the only thing to do!

The other motives could have been she was pushed into it, or said something and it got legs and before she knows shes well over her head and beyond pulling back, or very possibly thinking there was a video (or she thought there was) of the incident and is completely embarrassedif it every comes out.

The only ones that know were there that night, being a father of two girls (young women now!)  I hope they never find themselves having to embark down that road..

The possibility of a video I don't think leads to the pronouncement of a rape, surely if it was consensual it would more likely expose you as a liar. Unless I suppose it is taken with your other point of a knee jerk reaction that got out of hand quickly before any thought was involved.

But you can imagine how that would come across if you are from a respectable family and a night of madness you are caught with your trousers down and someone video's you and it goes on youtube!! If you have a job that would be in the public eye or say a doctor or barrister you'd be pretty pissed off, plus it could ruin your chances of getting a job in said areas!

Of course what Ive put up is about any one of us, not just the this case.... So glad i lived in a time of normality, bombings, shootings, raids, hurling/football, and youth clubs!!

[Syferus]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Listen if she was raped its the only thing to do!

The other motives could have been she was pushed into it, or said something and it got legs and before she knows shes well over her head and beyond pulling back, or very possibly thinking there was a video (or she thought there was) of the incident and is completely embarrassedif it every comes out.

The only ones that know were there that night, being a father of two girls (young women now!)  I hope they never find themselves having to embark down that road..

The possibility of a video I don't think leads to the pronouncement of a rape, surely if it was consensual it would more likely expose you as a liar. Unless I suppose it is taken with your other point of a knee jerk reaction that got out of hand quickly before any thought was involved.

But you can imagine how that would come across if you are from a respectable family and a night of madness you are caught with your trousers down and someone video's you and it goes on youtube!! If you have a job that would be in the public eye or say a doctor or barrister you'd be pretty pissed off, plus it could ruin your chances of getting a job in said areas!

Of course what Ive put up is about any one of us, not just the this case.... So glad i lived in a time of normality, bombings, shootings, raids, hurling/football, and youth clubs!!

You're so bad at trying to read the motives of a young woman I'd wonder when the last time you actually talked to one was.

[Hound]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Bar the perhaps obvious and perhaps excusable mis-statements, they could all be telling the truth, or their own biased version of it.

This is all pure speculation as to a potential version of events that could have happened where they would all be telling the "truth":

She got herself into a uncomfortable situation, didnt want to it go nearly as far as it went, but didnt know how to get out of it, so felt like she had no choice but to give in and go along with it. Then when no3 guy comes in, she gets her mojo back and decides enough's enough and leaves - perhaps when she realised someone else had seen her it helped straighten her thoughts.

Then almost immediately she gets really angry with the lads, her honest belief is it wasn't consensual, I didnt really want to take part in a 3some, she feels used, feels taken advantage of, feels raped. She tells her mates, and they suggest she has to go to the police.

But from Jackson's point of view, perhaps he thought here's girl a who fancies me.  She came to his house, she's not drinking, she's not with the 3 other girls, she's goes to his room and they start kissing. Hands start to wander, and she says Enough. She walks out. Paddy thinks, Dammit, I thought I was in. Girl comes back, Paddy thinks this is good. He starts again, thinking all he has to do is push the right button and she'll change her mind. He gets her into a compromising situation, she's not resisting. He's not holding her down, he's not preventing her from moving. She's not shouting Stop. He asks her to take off her top, she complies. So from his point of view, he doesn't think he's done a thing wrong.   

Olding comes in. Sees whats going on and decides to chance he arm. He lays down beside her, gets a blowie and thinks this is a great way to end a night. And then he's utterly astonished when police come knocking.

[Syferus]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Bar the perhaps obvious and perhaps excusable mis-statements, they could all be telling the truth, or their own biased version of it.

This is all pure speculation as to a potential version of events that could have happened where they would all be telling the "truth":

She got herself into a uncomfortable situation, didnt want to it go nearly as far as it went, but didnt know how to get out of it, so felt like she had no choice but to give in and go along with it. Then when no3 guy comes in, she gets her mojo back and decides enough's enough and leaves - perhaps when she realised someone else had seen her it helped straighten her thoughts.

Then almost immediately she gets really angry with the lads, her honest belief is it wasn't consensual, I didnt really want to take part in a 3some, she feels used, feels taken advantage of, feels raped. She tells her mates, and they suggest she has to go to the police.

But from Jackson's point of view, perhaps he thought here's girl a who fancies me.  She came to his house, she's not drinking, she's not with the 3 other girls, she's goes to his room and they start kissing. Hands start to wander, and she says Enough. She walks out. Paddy thinks, Dammit, I thought I was in. Girl comes back, Paddy thinks this is good. He starts again, thinking all he has to do is push the right button and she'll change her mind. He gets her into a compromising situation, she's not resisting. He's not holding her down, he's not preventing her from moving. She's not shouting Stop. He asks her to take off her top, she complies. So from his point of view, he doesn't think he's done a thing wrong.   

Olding comes in. Sees whats going on and decides to chance he arm. He lays down beside her, gets a blowie and thinks this is a great way to end a night. And then he's utterly astonished when police come knocking.

You have a very active and actively apologetic imagination.

[Hound]

You have a very active and actively apologetic imagination.

What about those bruises on the thighs? Where they a product of your imagination?

[Orior]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Bar the perhaps obvious and perhaps excusable mis-statements, they could all be telling the truth, or their own biased version of it.

This is all pure speculation as to a potential version of events that could have happened where they would all be telling the "truth":

She got herself into a uncomfortable situation, didnt want to it go nearly as far as it went, but didnt know how to get out of it, so felt like she had no choice but to give in and go along with it. Then when no3 guy comes in, she gets her mojo back and decides enough's enough and leaves - perhaps when she realised someone else had seen her it helped straighten her thoughts.

Then almost immediately she gets really angry with the lads, her honest belief is it wasn't consensual, I didnt really want to take part in a 3some, she feels used, feels taken advantage of, feels raped. She tells her mates, and they suggest she has to go to the police.

But from Jackson's point of view, perhaps he thought here's girl a who fancies me.  She came to his house, she's not drinking, she's not with the 3 other girls, she's goes to his room and they start kissing. Hands start to wander, and she says Enough. She walks out. Paddy thinks, Dammit, I thought I was in. Girl comes back, Paddy thinks this is good. He starts again, thinking all he has to do is push the right button and she'll change her mind. He gets her into a compromising situation, she's not resisting. He's not holding her down, he's not preventing her from moving. She's not shouting Stop. He asks her to take off her top, she complies. So from his point of view, he doesn't think he's done a thing wrong.   

Olding comes in. Sees whats going on and decides to chance he arm. He lays down beside her, gets a blowie and thinks this is a great way to end a night. And then he's utterly astonished when police come knocking.

You have a very active and actively apologetic imagination.

Please explain how you know so categorically that the boys are guilty and the girl is innocent?

[Franko]

The other thought nagging at me is what possible motive would the girl have for going this far if she didn't genuinely believe she was raped. It's a very courageous thing to do.

Bar the perhaps obvious and perhaps excusable mis-statements, they could all be telling the truth, or their own biased version of it.

This is all pure speculation as to a potential version of events that could have happened where they would all be telling the "truth":

She got herself into a uncomfortable situation, didnt want to it go nearly as far as it went, but didnt know how to get out of it, so felt like she had no choice but to give in and go along with it. Then when no3 guy comes in, she gets her mojo back and decides enough's enough and leaves - perhaps when she realised someone else had seen her it helped straighten her thoughts.

Then almost immediately she gets really angry with the lads, her honest belief is it wasn't consensual, I didnt really want to take part in a 3some, she feels used, feels taken advantage of, feels raped. She tells her mates, and they suggest she has to go to the police.

But from Jackson's point of view, perhaps he thought here's girl a who fancies me.  She came to his house, she's not drinking, she's not with the 3 other girls, she's goes to his room and they start kissing. Hands start to wander, and she says Enough. She walks out. Paddy thinks, Dammit, I thought I was in. Girl comes back, Paddy thinks this is good. He starts again, thinking all he has to do is push the right button and she'll change her mind. He gets her into a compromising situation, she's not resisting. He's not holding her down, he's not preventing her from moving. She's not shouting Stop. He asks her to take off her top, she complies. So from his point of view, he doesn't think he's done a thing wrong.   

Olding comes in. Sees whats going on and decides to chance he arm. He lays down beside her, gets a blowie and thinks this is a great way to end a night. And then he's utterly astonished when police come knocking.

You have a very active and actively apologetic imagination.

Please explain how you know so categorically that the boys are guilty and the girl is innocent?

He hasn't a clue.  He's spoofing here to get a reaction.  Adds nothing to this board.

A similar character to Fearon - and should be treated as such.

[Asal Mor]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

[GetOverTheBar]

Was the girl questioned on how her top came to be off? It seems inconsistent with  "everything about me was saying no physically". Would her top not have to have been ripped off in that case?

She's said that she took it off herself