Ulster Final: Tyrone v Down 16/07/17 14.00 Clones

Started by omagh_gael, June 22, 2017, 10:12:37 AM

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Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2017, 08:55:49 PM


If I was from that part of the world I'd be a tad worried about how a defensive system that looks so solid and well drilled still manages to cough up 15 points against a rather toothless attack. You can write some of those off against the match being over after 45 mins, but still, the strength of the Tyrone bench should be enough to see it out strongly.


It wouldn't really worry me in that regard.

I think we went 1-15 to 0-08 up after about 50 minutes and McQuillan seemed to just hand out ridiculous frees for slight contact he wasn't giving up to that point, as Brolly said after the match they were sympathy frees.

A similar thing happened against Donegal, we were 1-15 to 0-06 up after 50 minutes and took our foot off the gas. When games are going like that teams will generally drop their intensity and it can be a challenge like atmosphere. I wouldn't expect us to tail off if games are in the melting pot like that.

Very solid performance. Mattie played very well but his shooting was way off, Sean not at his best yet but I think he still deserves his place, it's more his decision making that has been uncharacteristically off more than signs of age showing so I trust him to turn it around. Who takes over the short and medium range frees from the left if he's dropped in any case.

2-15 from play against Down. 11 different scorers from play.
1-19 from play against Donegal. 11 different scorers from play.

They are highly impressive scoring stats, what I would suspect is that when we play the likes of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry they will target us from deep and use systematic fouling to halt our momentum, they will look to hit us in areas where we still have obvious problems with scoring frees. The effectiveness of this will rely on how well the ref will police it, I think Kerry are by far the biggest proponents of systematic fouling in the game right now as they have serious issues in their back line, they tend to get away with it because they are Kerry and little commentary is afforded to their cynicism.

nrico2006

Once the first goal went in and the game was really over, Down started getting frees for very little.  In saying that, I would rather see Tyrone really hammer a team when the opportunity is there.  In both the Donegal and Down games, Tyrone have taken the foot off in the 15 minutes when you would expect those playing for places to really bust their balls.  As mentioned though, in both these games the Tyrone defence was near perfect when the game was still competitive.  Good to see Lee Brennan get a run, was surprised to see his brother not involved when I even hoped he would start.
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

Up The Middle

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on July 18, 2017, 08:34:07 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2017, 08:55:49 PM


If I was from that part of the world I'd be a tad worried about how a defensive system that looks so solid and well drilled still manages to cough up 15 points against a rather toothless attack. You can write some of those off against the match being over after 45 mins, but still, the strength of the Tyrone bench should be enough to see it out strongly.


It wouldn't really worry me in that regard.

I think we went 1-15 to 0-08 up after about 50 minutes and McQuillan seemed to just hand out ridiculous frees for slight contact he wasn't giving up to that point, as Brolly said after the match they were sympathy frees.

A similar thing happened against Donegal, we were 1-15 to 0-06 up after 50 minutes and took our foot off the gas. When games are going like that teams will generally drop their intensity and it can be a challenge like atmosphere. I wouldn't expect us to tail off if games are in the melting pot like that.

Very solid performance. Mattie played very well but his shooting was way off, Sean not at his best yet but I think he still deserves his place, it's more his decision making that has been uncharacteristically off more than signs of age showing so I trust him to turn it around. Who takes over the short and medium range frees from the left if he's dropped in any case.

2-15 from play against Down. 11 different scorers from play.
1-19 from play against Donegal. 11 different scorers from play.

They are highly impressive scoring stats, what I would suspect is that when we play the likes of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry they will target us from deep and use systematic fouling to halt our momentum, they will look to hit us in areas where we still have obvious problems with scoring frees. The effectiveness of this will rely on how well the ref will police it, I think Kerry are by far the biggest proponents of systematic fouling in the game right now as they have serious issues in their back line, they tend to get away with it because they are Kerry and little commentary is afforded to their cynicism.

Really. I thought he was well below par and has been all year. Very lucky not to have been replaced with Cavanagh. Harte had a great game, covered serious ground and took a lot of heavy hits and just kept going.
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

DennistheMenace

Tyrone never needed to get out of 3rd gear and really look a very well balanced team. Agree on the defensive point and Harte won't be happy about conceding 15 points despite a few of those coming when the game was over. Tyrone have scorers right across half back with pace to burn, what did the half back line score, something like 6 or 7 points and instrumental in many more.

As a Derry man it's hard to say but that Tyrone team are utterly superb and that's without the need for marquee forward. Who needs one of those when the spread of scores comes from all angles and all parts of the team. I fancy them for the All Ireland and I'm sure a few Tyrone supporters are quietly confident too but wouldn't dare say it out loud.

Fuzzman

Having watched the highlights last night I agree I may have been a bit harsh on Peter Harte. He might not have had as many scores as usual but yes he put in a a lot of work and showed great acceleration that time.

It's interesting that we're scoring so much from play this year and I think I read in the IN that we only gave away one scoreable free in the first 28 mins or something crazy like that. One of the things I like the most is we have so many players who can shoot from distance and so it's not always necessary to play the conventional way of kicking it into a forward who then turns and shoots. Actually most of the times they tried to kick it into the FF line in the first half they made a mess of the pass or else the forward was swallowed up, wheres that period in the 3rd quarter we went back to what we do best and that is running at pace and then shooting from just outside the large D.

O'Rourke made the comment that most of our scores come from MF and defence now with players arring to the attack late and then shooting from distance when everyone else is bottled up.
Spillane was still suggesting that we have no top range forwards and that we're not ruthless enough with our goal chances which will cost us in the big games.

I think back in 2003 we were also a high points scoring team and not focusing much on goals.

Zulu

Though Tyrone have been impressive so far I don't think they are All Ireland contenders yet. I think Ulster currently lacks a genuine top team and therefore their performances need to be viewed in that context. That's not to say they aren't a top 4 team, they probably are, but I couldn't see them beat Kerry or Dublin. I suspect they'll find it much tougher to score against the top three in the country (still Dublin, Kerry and Mayo IMO) and many of the criticisms from last year will resurface before the year is out.

Redhand Santa

Quote from: Fuzzman on July 18, 2017, 10:26:12 AM
Having watched the highlights last night I agree I may have been a bit harsh on Peter Harte. He might not have had as many scores as usual but yes he put in a a lot of work and showed great acceleration that time.

It's interesting that we're scoring so much from play this year and I think I read in the IN that we only gave away one scoreable free in the first 28 mins or something crazy like that. One of the things I like the most is we have so many players who can shoot from distance and so it's not always necessary to play the conventional way of kicking it into a forward who then turns and shoots. Actually most of the times they tried to kick it into the FF line in the first half they made a mess of the pass or else the forward was swallowed up, wheres that period in the 3rd quarter we went back to what we do best and that is running at pace and then shooting from just outside the large D.

O'Rourke made the comment that most of our scores come from MF and defence now with players arring to the attack late and then shooting from distance when everyone else is bottled up.
Spillane was still suggesting that we have no top range forwards and that we're not ruthless enough with our goal chances which will cost us in the big games.

I think back in 2003 we were also a high points scoring team and not focusing much on goals.

There seems to be a great obsession about having to score lots of goals to do well. In 2003 Tyrone won it without scoring a goal in the semi final or final. In 2005 and 2008  we got one goal in the finals. Dublin won an All Ireland two years ago scoring 12 points v Kerry. I'd be more worried if we were relying on goals to win games.

Stall the Bailer

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Though Tyrone have been impressive so far I don't think they are All Ireland contenders yet. I think Ulster currently lacks a genuine top team and therefore their performances need to be viewed in that context. That's not to say they aren't a top 4 team, they probably are, but I couldn't see them beat Kerry or Dublin. I suspect they'll find it much tougher to score against the top three in the country (still Dublin, Kerry and Mayo IMO) and many of the criticisms from last year will resurface before the year is out.
Tyrone may not beat any of 3 teams you mentioned, but not seeing them as possible contenders seems a bit off. Mayo beat us by 1 point last year, we drew with Dublin in the league this year, and we appear to have improved from last year. We still have to provide it against them 3, but I don't think it would be a shock if we do beat some of them.

seafoid

Quote from: Redhand Santa on July 18, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
Quote from: Fuzzman on July 18, 2017, 10:26:12 AM
Having watched the highlights last night I agree I may have been a bit harsh on Peter Harte. He might not have had as many scores as usual but yes he put in a a lot of work and showed great acceleration that time.

It's interesting that we're scoring so much from play this year and I think I read in the IN that we only gave away one scoreable free in the first 28 mins or something crazy like that. One of the things I like the most is we have so many players who can shoot from distance and so it's not always necessary to play the conventional way of kicking it into a forward who then turns and shoots. Actually most of the times they tried to kick it into the FF line in the first half they made a mess of the pass or else the forward was swallowed up, wheres that period in the 3rd quarter we went back to what we do best and that is running at pace and then shooting from just outside the large D.

O'Rourke made the comment that most of our scores come from MF and defence now with players arring to the attack late and then shooting from distance when everyone else is bottled up.
Spillane was still suggesting that we have no top range forwards and that we're not ruthless enough with our goal chances which will cost us in the big games.

I think back in 2003 we were also a high points scoring team and not focusing much on goals.

There seems to be a great obsession about having to score lots of goals to do well. In 2003 Tyrone won it without scoring a goal in the semi final or final. In 2005 and 2008  we got one goal in the finals. Dublin won an All Ireland two years ago scoring 12 points v Kerry. I'd be more worried if we were relying on goals to win games.
It depends on  the rate at which the other team is scoring. GoalS can demoralise the opposition.
In a low scoring game goals win matches
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Zulu

You might catch Mayo though I think it would be like last year where you wouldn't score a whole lot and neither would they so the winner would whoever managed to get their noses in front at the end. Don't think you can beat Kerry or Dublin. The league result against Dublin means nothing IMO and I can't see anyway Tyrone could beat Dublin in the championship. IMO Tyrone are at the top of the chasing pack rather than in the leading one. For me Kerry and Dublin are clearly ahead of everyone else with Mayo the only team with any real chance of beating either and that's largely due to their experience and physicality. Maybe Tyrone have improved but I don't think the competition in Ulster is such that you can say that for definite.

trueblue1234

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
You might catch Mayo though I think it would be like last year where you wouldn't score a whole lot and neither would they so the winner would whoever managed to get their noses in front at the end. Don't think you can beat Kerry or Dublin. The league result against Dublin means nothing IMO and I can't see anyway Tyrone could beat Dublin in the championship. IMO Tyrone are at the top of the chasing pack rather than in the leading one. For me Kerry and Dublin are clearly ahead of everyone else with Mayo the only team with any real chance of beating either and that's largely due to their experience and physicality. Maybe Tyrone have improved but I don't think the competition in Ulster is such that you can say that for definite.

I don't think Ulster is any worse than the other provinces. It might not be as competitive as it was but I don't know what other one you would rank above it? It had 4 out of 8 Div 1 teams. I think it's impossible to say if Tyrone have improved into the top 3 without meeting one of Dublin, Mayo or Kerry. That's the reality. I think from looking at their play they could certainly have a good chance against Kerry and Mayo. Dublin, I'm not so sure about, as I think Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo are in the chasing pack to Dublin unfortunately. 

Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Though Tyrone have been impressive so far I don't think they are All Ireland contenders yet. I think Ulster currently lacks a genuine top team and therefore their performances need to be viewed in that context. That's not to say they aren't a top 4 team, they probably are, but I couldn't see them beat Kerry or Dublin. I suspect they'll find it much tougher to score against the top three in the country (still Dublin, Kerry and Mayo IMO) and many of the criticisms from last year will resurface before the year is out.

And which other province has a top quality team as a litmus test?

3 of the 4 sides to progress through the qualifiers to the last 12 are from Ulster and Derry gave Mayo a big scare. Ulster is far stronger than the other provinces. Tyrone have it all to prove in the latter stages but to write them off on the basis of cruising through the toughest province is risible.

DennistheMenace

Tyrone are a much better team than Mayo for me and have all the attributes to really test Dublin.

And I hate Tyrone.

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
You might catch Mayo though I think it would be like last year where you wouldn't score a whole lot and neither would they so the winner would whoever managed to get their noses in front at the end..

Your doubts are not necessarily misplaced, but if you think our scoring potency hasn't significantly improved since 2016 you're simply mistaken. Whether we'll have enough is another question, for sure.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

Walter Cronc

Jesus if Tyrone had Conor McKenna back in that side they might be far away!!