Shankill Bombing

[omagh_gael]

Watched Nolan's show last night on BBC iPlayer. As a 9 year old at this time i was relatively detached from the troubles. Living in Omagh we rarely experienced the worst of the horror until, obviously, 1998.

I wouldn't consider myself and emotional person at all, however, some parts of the show had me choking up big time. The overall feeling was the pointlessness of the whole f**king thing. Society totally lost a grip on every aspect of decency. We all have our own opinions on the genesis of the 'war' and even within that there are many shades of grey. But, on a purely human level it is disturbing to look back at what we could do to our neighbours. The callousness of it all was mind-blowing.

The brutal loyalist-inflicted aftermath genuinely had an out and out civil war feel to it. When Brian Rowan read out the UDA statement declaring war on the nationalist electorate it must have appeared apocalyptic to everyone who understood the gravity of it.

Perhaps this is well known or understood but what is the backstory to the 11 second timer? Were Kelly and Begley literally sent on a suicide mission? Did they know that's all the time they would have? The bomb exploded in Begley's arms. How does his family reconcile that fact (in all likelihood) knowing who it was that sent him on that 'mission?'

Finally, the only taint on the production of the show was Nolan's needless probing of the rescuers to repeatedly recount the gory details of what they witnessed. Unnecessary, voyeuristic shock stuff that was totally unneeded.

[haranguerer]

Nolan didn't give a f**k about any of the victims.

UFF leadership due to have meeting upstairs. Plan was to clear the shop at gunpoint, arm device, and get out themselves, but not enough time for UFF to get out. Certainly high risk. 

[seafoid]

Begley died but for what ? What did anyone who died violently up there die for ?
There were so many atrocities.

And NI is still a mess

"The Nevin Economic Research Institute said a deep gap exists between the strong performance of foreign firms operating in the Republic and its domestic economy. The report said Northern Ireland lags in both areas by a considerable margin in output, productivity and investment.
"We note regional disparities in performance and the presence of three effective economies on the island: a split economy in the Republic made up of an apparently world-beating, foreign-owned sector and a more modestly performing domestic sector alongside a laggard Northern Ireland," it said. "

It is all very sad

[armaghniac]

Watched Nolan's show last night on BBC iPlayer. As a 9 year old at this time i was relatively detached from the troubles. Living in Omagh we rarely experienced the worst of the horror until, obviously, 1998.

I wouldn't consider myself and emotional person at all, however, some parts of the show had me choking up big time. The overall feeling was the pointlessness of the whole f**king thing. Society totally lost a grip on every aspect of decency. We all have our own opinions on the genesis of the 'war' and even within that there are many shades of grey. But, on a purely human level it is disturbing to look back at what we could do to our neighbours. The callousness of it all was mind-blowing.

There was 30 years of this. I was poking around on Pinterest and I found a photo of the funeral of one of the babies killed in the 1971 Shankhill furniture shop bombing, my parents had lived in Belfast when I was born and the baby was from the same N. Belfast street. The last 25 years has seen boiler fraud, people using the wrong email and the like, but it is still a huge improvement.

[trailer]

The whole place fed on fear and mistrust and does still today. Very sad. It could be so much more.

Shankill was just another one of a long long list of IRA atrocities. And who suffered the most? Their own community. Ordinary everyday Nationalists, that's the paradox at the very centre of the IRA's campaign. The nationalist community suffered so much at the hands of the IRA.

[seafoid]

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1993.html

[seafoid]

Watched Nolan's show last night on BBC iPlayer. As a 9 year old at this time i was relatively detached from the troubles. Living in Omagh we rarely experienced the worst of the horror until, obviously, 1998.

I wouldn't consider myself and emotional person at all, however, some parts of the show had me choking up big time. The overall feeling was the pointlessness of the whole f**king thing. Society totally lost a grip on every aspect of decency. We all have our own opinions on the genesis of the 'war' and even within that there are many shades of grey. But, on a purely human level it is disturbing to look back at what we could do to our neighbours. The callousness of it all was mind-blowing.

There was 30 years of this. I was poking around on Pinterest and I found a photo of the funeral of one of the babies killed in the 1971 Shankhill furniture shop bombing, my parents had lived in Belfast when I was born and the baby was from the same N. Belfast street. The last 25 years has seen boiler fraud, people using the wrong email and the like, but it is still a huge improvement.

Plus the all Ireland successes

[trailer]

The whole place fed on fear and mistrust and does still today. Very sad. It could be so much more.

Shankill was just another one of a long long list of IRA atrocities. And who suffered the most? Their own community. Ordinary everyday Nationalists, that's the paradox at the very centre of the IRA's campaign. The nationalist community suffered so much at the hands of the IRA.

So the causes of ordinary people becoming part of war, which included risk of death and imprisonment was the people's own fault.  Thousands of people felt the need and urge to take part in revolution because they all all of a sudden got bloodthirsty?

I'm amazed that throughout your very short post that you failed to mention British occupation, massacres, atrocities, collusion, imprisonment, criminalisation or any other factor that might have been the cause for the war to take place.  That's actually the mind-set of blame that will never get anywhere.  The same line the DUP take actually.

Calm down Ché. The RA's campaign was as much about revolution as I am about space exploration.

[Milltown Row2]

Was working in Harlands at the time and thought, feck thats me next, first chance they'll get they'll knock off one of the taigs working here.. The day of the funerals the yard walked up the Shankil, I dandered home as the tension was exploding..

Needles to say on the day it happened no one left the house that night or the week later, I was in my local at the top of Broadway when we heard the bomb, once we found out where it was I left the pub sharp..

One of the first ones shot that night was a freind of mine who was sitting in his car with his then girlfirend, they tapped teh window and shot through it, hitting him in face and blowing a hole in it, he survived, just.. He was a Prod, sitting in his car on the Cliftonvile road, his girl was a catholic..

Strange days looking back, it was a normal, the shootings the riots the bombs, getting searched, watching attacks on teh hospital towers at the Royal..

[RetiredRessie]

That's the bit that maybe our southern Irishmen mightn't be able to grasp.  The tension and the wait for what was the inevitable and hoping that it wasn't someone from your family or from the club - not that you didn't feel anguish for the those people and their families.

I always found, coming from a republican family, that someone form my family would be taken out.  My uncle was shot dead in 84 and a cousin was killed in 98.  We always felt uneasy doing normal things like driving to the city hospital or walking anywhere really at night time because you always felt that Loyalist killed anyone from our community and that it mattered not to them whether you were involved or not.  This below was the mentality of the UVF and UDA in my head and obviously in their own too:



But you are right, death was so common that it was often brushed off as daily news.  House searches were common for me.  It made me angry that at 4am as a late teenager that a British soldier was pushing me about my own house and breaking up floorboards and walls while I was in my own country.  That was my mentality and the mentality that wanted them gone from my country forever. This was a British state for British people well into the 90s and there are so many examples past and even present of discrimination against Irish people in our own country.

Of course we can look back now and see that it was futile and that so many people died needlessly, so many people spent years away from their families and for what?  Nothing was really achieved by it but that doesn't make me subscribe to the idea that the IRA were terrorists or worse still that they were the cause of this. 

In my eyes, partition/British occupation coupled unionist discrimination and supremacy were the cause.  The IRA and people rising to resist this were merely the symptoms.  This isn't just an Irish thing.  This happens all over the world.

+1
Couldn't of worded it better myself.

[trailer]

That's the bit that maybe our southern Irishmen mightn't be able to grasp.  The tension and the wait for what was the inevitable and hoping that it wasn't someone from your family or from the club - not that you didn't feel anguish for the those people and their families.

I always found, coming from a republican family, that someone form my family would be taken out.  My uncle was shot dead in 84 and a cousin was killed in 98.  We always felt uneasy doing normal things like driving to the city hospital or walking anywhere really at night time because you always felt that Loyalist killed anyone from our community and that it mattered not to them whether you were involved or not.  This below was the mentality of the UVF and UDA in my head and obviously in their own too:



But you are right, death was so common that it was often brushed off as daily news.  House searches were common for me.  It made me angry that at 4am as a late teenager that a British soldier was pushing me about my own house and breaking up floorboards and walls while I was in my own country.  That was my mentality and the mentality that wanted them gone from my country forever. This was a British state for British people well into the 90s and there are so many examples past and even present of discrimination against Irish people in our own country.

Of course we can look back now and see that it was futile and that so many people died needlessly, so many people spent years away from their families and for what?  Nothing was really achieved by it but that doesn't make me subscribe to the idea that the IRA were terrorists or worse still that they were the cause of this. 

In my eyes, partition/British occupation coupled unionist discrimination and supremacy were the cause.  The IRA and people rising to resist this were merely the symptoms.  This isn't just an Irish thing.  This happens all over the world.

+1
Couldn't of worded it better myself.

The IRA had nothing to do with rising up against unionist discrimination. They used the non violent rising of the people as cover for their goal of brits out and to unite Ireland. Indecently, on both they failed.
The IRA murdered a huge amount of innocent Men, Women and Children, they enriched themselves and terrorised their own communities. Unfortunately they weren't alone in this and loyalists got in on the act as well.
Coupled with the stupidity of the NI Unionist government, a sectarian police force and complete lack of understanding of the situation by successive British governments, the whole place turned into a killing zone where lots and lots preventable deaths occurred.

[Milltown Row2]

That's the bit that maybe our southern Irishmen mightn't be able to grasp.  The tension and the wait for what was the inevitable and hoping that it wasn't someone from your family or from the club - not that you didn't feel anguish for the those people and their families.

I always found, coming from a republican family, that someone form my family would be taken out.  My uncle was shot dead in 84 and a cousin was killed in 98.  We always felt uneasy doing normal things like driving to the city hospital or walking anywhere really at night time because you always felt that Loyalist killed anyone from our community and that it mattered not to them whether you were involved or not.  This below was the mentality of the UVF and UDA in my head and obviously in their own too:



But you are right, death was so common that it was often brushed off as daily news.  House searches were common for me.  It made me angry that at 4am as a late teenager that a British soldier was pushing me about my own house and breaking up floorboards and walls while I was in my own country.  That was my mentality and the mentality that wanted them gone from my country forever. This was a British state for British people well into the 90s and there are so many examples past and even present of discrimination against Irish people in our own country.

Of course we can look back now and see that it was futile and that so many people died needlessly, so many people spent years away from their families and for what?  Nothing was really achieved by it but that doesn't make me subscribe to the idea that the IRA were terrorists or worse still that they were the cause of this. 

In my eyes, partition/British occupation coupled unionist discrimination and supremacy were the cause.  The IRA and people rising to resist this were merely the symptoms.  This isn't just an Irish thing.  This happens all over the world.

+1
Couldn't of worded it better myself.

The IRA had nothing to do with rising up against unionist discrimination. They used the non violent rising of the people as cover for their goal of brits out and to unite Ireland. Indecently, on both they failed.
The IRA murdered a huge amount of innocent Men, Women and Children, they enriched themselves and terrorised their own communities. Unfortunately they weren't alone in this and loyalists got in on the act as well.
Coupled with the stupidity of the NI Unionist government, a sectarian police force and complete lack of understanding of the situation by successive British governments, the whole place turned into a killing zone where lots and lots preventable deaths occurred.

[/b]

That last part in bold, are we talking about the Irish civil war?

[Orior]

The IRA had nothing to do with rising up against unionist discrimination. They used the non violent rising of the people as cover for their goal of brits out and to unite Ireland. Indecently, on both they failed.
The IRA murdered a huge amount of innocent Men, Women and Children, they enriched themselves and terrorised their own communities. Unfortunately they weren't alone in this and loyalists got in on the act as well.
Coupled with the stupidity of the NI Unionist government, a sectarian police force and complete lack of understanding of the situation by successive British governments, the whole place turned into a killing zone where lots and lots preventable deaths occurred.

The IRA were a large family. I'd say there was quite a difference between the city and rural base battalions.

[trailer]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

[Therealdonald]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

I think this is where the difference of opinion comes in. Personally I don't see how we'd be where we are today without the IRA.SF role.Whilst you may not agree with the methods, they were effective. We are the closest we've been in years to a UI, our children are being educated at a higher rate than ever before, and we have a genuine 50/50 role in society. Without the IRA this couldn't have happened.

The Shankill bomb was an awful awful tragedy and mistake, but the intended aim of it was not. It was just a massive clusterfk, be it tampering or whatever.