Watched Nolan's show last night on BBC iPlayer. As a 9 year old at this time i was relatively detached from the troubles. Living in Omagh we rarely experienced the worst of the horror until, obviously, 1998.
I wouldn't consider myself and emotional person at all, however, some parts of the show had me choking up big time. The overall feeling was the pointlessness of the whole f**king thing. Society totally lost a grip on every aspect of decency. We all have our own opinions on the genesis of the 'war' and even within that there are many shades of grey. But, on a purely human level it is disturbing to look back at what we could do to our neighbours. The callousness of it all was mind-blowing.
The brutal loyalist-inflicted aftermath genuinely had an out and out civil war feel to it. When Brian Rowan read out the UDA statement declaring war on the nationalist electorate it must have appeared apocalyptic to everyone who understood the gravity of it.
Perhaps this is well known or understood but what is the backstory to the 11 second timer? Were Kelly and Begley literally sent on a suicide mission? Did they know that's all the time they would have? The bomb exploded in Begley's arms. How does his family reconcile that fact (in all likelihood) knowing who it was that sent him on that 'mission?'
Finally, the only taint on the production of the show was Nolan's needless probing of the rescuers to repeatedly recount the gory details of what they witnessed. Unnecessary, voyeuristic shock stuff that was totally unneeded.
Nolan didn't give a f**k about any of the victims.
UFF leadership due to have meeting upstairs. Plan was to clear the shop at gunpoint, arm device, and get out themselves, but not enough time for UFF to get out. Certainly high risk.
Begley died but for what ? What did anyone who died violently up there die for ?
There were so many atrocities.
And NI is still a mess
"The Nevin Economic Research Institute said a deep gap exists between the strong performance of foreign firms operating in the Republic and its domestic economy. The report said Northern Ireland lags in both areas by a considerable margin in output, productivity and investment.
"We note regional disparities in performance and the presence of three effective economies on the island: a split economy in the Republic made up of an apparently world-beating, foreign-owned sector and a more modestly performing domestic sector alongside a laggard Northern Ireland," it said. "
It is all very sad
Quote from: omagh_gael on October 25, 2018, 10:36:18 AM
Watched Nolan's show last night on BBC iPlayer. As a 9 year old at this time i was relatively detached from the troubles. Living in Omagh we rarely experienced the worst of the horror until, obviously, 1998.
I wouldn't consider myself and emotional person at all, however, some parts of the show had me choking up big time. The overall feeling was the pointlessness of the whole f**king thing. Society totally lost a grip on every aspect of decency. We all have our own opinions on the genesis of the 'war' and even within that there are many shades of grey. But, on a purely human level it is disturbing to look back at what we could do to our neighbours. The callousness of it all was mind-blowing.
There was 30 years of this. I was poking around on Pinterest and I found a photo of the funeral of one of the babies killed in the 1971 Shankhill furniture shop bombing, my parents had lived in Belfast when I was born and the baby was from the same N. Belfast street. The last 25 years has seen boiler fraud, people using the wrong email and the like, but it is still a huge improvement.
The whole place fed on fear and mistrust and does still today. Very sad. It could be so much more.
Shankill was just another one of a long long list of IRA atrocities. And who suffered the most? Their own community. Ordinary everyday Nationalists, that's the paradox at the very centre of the IRA's campaign. The nationalist community suffered so much at the hands of the IRA.
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1993.html
Quote from: armaghniac on October 25, 2018, 11:37:27 AM
Quote from: omagh_gael on October 25, 2018, 10:36:18 AM
Watched Nolan's show last night on BBC iPlayer. As a 9 year old at this time i was relatively detached from the troubles. Living in Omagh we rarely experienced the worst of the horror until, obviously, 1998.
I wouldn't consider myself and emotional person at all, however, some parts of the show had me choking up big time. The overall feeling was the pointlessness of the whole f**king thing. Society totally lost a grip on every aspect of decency. We all have our own opinions on the genesis of the 'war' and even within that there are many shades of grey. But, on a purely human level it is disturbing to look back at what we could do to our neighbours. The callousness of it all was mind-blowing.
There was 30 years of this. I was poking around on Pinterest and I found a photo of the funeral of one of the babies killed in the 1971 Shankhill furniture shop bombing, my parents had lived in Belfast when I was born and the baby was from the same N. Belfast street. The last 25 years has seen boiler fraud, people using the wrong email and the like, but it is still a huge improvement.
Plus the all Ireland successes
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 11:45:48 AM
The whole place fed on fear and mistrust and does still today. Very sad. It could be so much more.
Shankill was just another one of a long long list of IRA atrocities. And who suffered the most? Their own community. Ordinary everyday Nationalists, that's the paradox at the very centre of the IRA's campaign. The nationalist community suffered so much at the hands of the IRA.
So the causes of ordinary people becoming part of war, which included risk of death and imprisonment was the people's own fault. Thousands of people felt the need and urge to take part in revolution because they all all of a sudden got bloodthirsty?
I'm amazed that throughout your very short post that you failed to mention British occupation, massacres, atrocities, collusion, imprisonment, criminalisation or any other factor that might have been the cause for the war to take place. That's actually the mind-set of blame that will never get anywhere. The same line the DUP take actually.
Calm down Ché. The RA's campaign was as much about revolution as I am about space exploration.
Was working in Harlands at the time and thought, feck thats me next, first chance they'll get they'll knock off one of the taigs working here.. The day of the funerals the yard walked up the Shankil, I dandered home as the tension was exploding..
Needles to say on the day it happened no one left the house that night or the week later, I was in my local at the top of Broadway when we heard the bomb, once we found out where it was I left the pub sharp..
One of the first ones shot that night was a freind of mine who was sitting in his car with his then girlfirend, they tapped teh window and shot through it, hitting him in face and blowing a hole in it, he survived, just.. He was a Prod, sitting in his car on the Cliftonvile road, his girl was a catholic..
Strange days looking back, it was a normal, the shootings the riots the bombs, getting searched, watching attacks on teh hospital towers at the Royal..
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 02:30:32 PM
That's the bit that maybe our southern Irishmen mightn't be able to grasp. The tension and the wait for what was the inevitable and hoping that it wasn't someone from your family or from the club - not that you didn't feel anguish for the those people and their families.
I always found, coming from a republican family, that someone form my family would be taken out. My uncle was shot dead in 84 and a cousin was killed in 98. We always felt uneasy doing normal things like driving to the city hospital or walking anywhere really at night time because you always felt that Loyalist killed anyone from our community and that it mattered not to them whether you were involved or not. This below was the mentality of the UVF and UDA in my head and obviously in their own too:
(http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-19-at-07.39.22.png)
But you are right, death was so common that it was often brushed off as daily news. House searches were common for me. It made me angry that at 4am as a late teenager that a British soldier was pushing me about my own house and breaking up floorboards and walls while I was in my own country. That was my mentality and the mentality that wanted them gone from my country forever. This was a British state for British people well into the 90s and there are so many examples past and even present of discrimination against Irish people in our own country.
Of course we can look back now and see that it was futile and that so many people died needlessly, so many people spent years away from their families and for what? Nothing was really achieved by it but that doesn't make me subscribe to the idea that the IRA were terrorists or worse still that they were the cause of this.
In my eyes, partition/British occupation coupled unionist discrimination and supremacy were the cause. The IRA and people rising to resist this were merely the symptoms. This isn't just an Irish thing. This happens all over the world.
+1
Couldn't of worded it better myself.
Quote from: RetiredRessie on October 25, 2018, 04:25:39 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 02:30:32 PM
That's the bit that maybe our southern Irishmen mightn't be able to grasp. The tension and the wait for what was the inevitable and hoping that it wasn't someone from your family or from the club - not that you didn't feel anguish for the those people and their families.
I always found, coming from a republican family, that someone form my family would be taken out. My uncle was shot dead in 84 and a cousin was killed in 98. We always felt uneasy doing normal things like driving to the city hospital or walking anywhere really at night time because you always felt that Loyalist killed anyone from our community and that it mattered not to them whether you were involved or not. This below was the mentality of the UVF and UDA in my head and obviously in their own too:
(http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-19-at-07.39.22.png)
But you are right, death was so common that it was often brushed off as daily news. House searches were common for me. It made me angry that at 4am as a late teenager that a British soldier was pushing me about my own house and breaking up floorboards and walls while I was in my own country. That was my mentality and the mentality that wanted them gone from my country forever. This was a British state for British people well into the 90s and there are so many examples past and even present of discrimination against Irish people in our own country.
Of course we can look back now and see that it was futile and that so many people died needlessly, so many people spent years away from their families and for what? Nothing was really achieved by it but that doesn't make me subscribe to the idea that the IRA were terrorists or worse still that they were the cause of this.
In my eyes, partition/British occupation coupled unionist discrimination and supremacy were the cause. The IRA and people rising to resist this were merely the symptoms. This isn't just an Irish thing. This happens all over the world.
+1
Couldn't of worded it better myself.
The IRA had nothing to do with rising up against unionist discrimination. They used the non violent rising of the people as cover for their goal of brits out and to unite Ireland. Indecently, on both they failed.
The IRA murdered a huge amount of innocent Men, Women and Children, they enriched themselves and terrorised their own communities. Unfortunately they weren't alone in this and loyalists got in on the act as well.
Coupled with the stupidity of the NI Unionist government, a sectarian police force and complete lack of understanding of the situation by successive British governments, the whole place turned into a killing zone where lots and lots preventable deaths occurred.
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 04:45:10 PM
Quote from: RetiredRessie on October 25, 2018, 04:25:39 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 02:30:32 PM
That's the bit that maybe our southern Irishmen mightn't be able to grasp. The tension and the wait for what was the inevitable and hoping that it wasn't someone from your family or from the club - not that you didn't feel anguish for the those people and their families.
I always found, coming from a republican family, that someone form my family would be taken out. My uncle was shot dead in 84 and a cousin was killed in 98. We always felt uneasy doing normal things like driving to the city hospital or walking anywhere really at night time because you always felt that Loyalist killed anyone from our community and that it mattered not to them whether you were involved or not. This below was the mentality of the UVF and UDA in my head and obviously in their own too:
(http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-19-at-07.39.22.png)
But you are right, death was so common that it was often brushed off as daily news. House searches were common for me. It made me angry that at 4am as a late teenager that a British soldier was pushing me about my own house and breaking up floorboards and walls while I was in my own country. That was my mentality and the mentality that wanted them gone from my country forever. This was a British state for British people well into the 90s and there are so many examples past and even present of discrimination against Irish people in our own country.
Of course we can look back now and see that it was futile and that so many people died needlessly, so many people spent years away from their families and for what? Nothing was really achieved by it but that doesn't make me subscribe to the idea that the IRA were terrorists or worse still that they were the cause of this.
In my eyes, partition/British occupation coupled unionist discrimination and supremacy were the cause. The IRA and people rising to resist this were merely the symptoms. This isn't just an Irish thing. This happens all over the world.
+1
Couldn't of worded it better myself.
The IRA had nothing to do with rising up against unionist discrimination. They used the non violent rising of the people as cover for their goal of brits out and to unite Ireland. Indecently, on both they failed.
The IRA murdered a huge amount of innocent Men, Women and Children, they enriched themselves and terrorised their own communities. Unfortunately they weren't alone in this and loyalists got in on the act as well.
Coupled with the stupidity of the NI Unionist government, a sectarian police force and complete lack of understanding of the situation by successive British governments, the whole place turned into a killing zone where lots and lots preventable deaths occurred.
[/b]
That last part in bold, are we talking about the Irish civil war?
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 04:45:10 PM
The IRA had nothing to do with rising up against unionist discrimination. They used the non violent rising of the people as cover for their goal of brits out and to unite Ireland. Indecently, on both they failed.
The IRA murdered a huge amount of innocent Men, Women and Children, they enriched themselves and terrorised their own communities. Unfortunately they weren't alone in this and loyalists got in on the act as well.
Coupled with the stupidity of the NI Unionist government, a sectarian police force and complete lack of understanding of the situation by successive British governments, the whole place turned into a killing zone where lots and lots preventable deaths occurred.
The IRA were a large family. I'd say there was quite a difference between the city and rural base battalions.
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
I think this is where the difference of opinion comes in. Personally I don't see how we'd be where we are today without the IRA.SF role.Whilst you may not agree with the methods, they were effective. We are the closest we've been in years to a UI, our children are being educated at a higher rate than ever before, and we have a genuine 50/50 role in society. Without the IRA this couldn't have happened.
The Shankill bomb was an awful awful tragedy and mistake, but the intended aim of it was not. It was just a massive clusterfk, be it tampering or whatever.
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?
Quote from: red hander on October 25, 2018, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?
Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 25, 2018, 07:29:45 PM
Quote from: red hander on October 25, 2018, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?
Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British
Maybe. Bit simplistic, though, considering the British Empire over its lifetime was responsible for vastly more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined. Bit hard to sit on your hands when all that's going on, would you not agree?
Quote from: red hander on October 25, 2018, 08:44:12 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 25, 2018, 07:29:45 PM
Quote from: red hander on October 25, 2018, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?
Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British
Maybe. Bit simplistic, though, considering the British Empire over its lifetime was responsible for vastly more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined. Bit hard to sit on your hands when all that's going on, would you not agree?
Maybe....who knows...most Irish men didnt sit on their hands they went to fight for that Empire instead of fighting it
Not sure on your stats BTW could you give me a quick break down?
Quote from: Therealdonald on October 25, 2018, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
I think this is where the difference of opinion comes in. Personally I don't see how we'd be where we are today without the IRA.SF role.Whilst you may not agree with the methods, they were effective. We are the closest we've been in years to a UI, our children are being educated at a higher rate than ever before, and we have a genuine 50/50 role in society. Without the IRA this couldn't have happened.
The Shankill bomb was an awful awful tragedy and mistake, but the intended aim of it was not. It was just a massive clusterfk, be it tampering or whatever.
I'd disagree with that. I don't think the IRA achieved anything that wasn't already achieved through peaceful means. The IRA campaign wasn't about citizens rights or equality, although SF now would tell you it was. It was about uniting Ireland and Brits out. Both aims they failed to achieve.
In my view, rightly or wrongly) Ireland would have gained full Independence had it not have been for the violence of Collins and the IRA. Partition was a poor deal, done at a bad time in turbulent circumstances. It resulted in a Unionist status quo that hasn't been broken yet and helped to entrench views on both sides of the divide in NI.
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 09:16:36 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on October 25, 2018, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
I think this is where the difference of opinion comes in. Personally I don't see how we'd be where we are today without the IRA.SF role.Whilst you may not agree with the methods, they were effective. We are the closest we've been in years to a UI, our children are being educated at a higher rate than ever before, and we have a genuine 50/50 role in society. Without the IRA this couldn't have happened.
The Shankill bomb was an awful awful tragedy and mistake, but the intended aim of it was not. It was just a massive clusterfk, be it tampering or whatever.
I'd disagree with that. I don't think the IRA achieved anything that wasn't already achieved through peaceful means. The IRA campaign wasn't about citizens rights or equality, although SF now would tell you it was. It was about uniting Ireland and Brits out. Both aims they failed to achieve.
In my view, rightly or wrongly) Ireland would have gained full Independence had it not have been for the violence of Collins and the IRA. Partition was a poor deal, done at a bad time in turbulent circumstances. It resulted in a Unionist status quo that hasn't been broken yet and helped to entrench views on both sides of the divide in NI.
Trailer you seem like an intelligent person, warped but intelligent none the less. WOuld it be fair to say that the IRA came out of Bloody Sunday with a renewed purpose and support? So peaceful protests and walks end up with regular human beings being shot? So if you can't protest, you can't vote fairly, you can't rent a house, what exactly was your solution? Walk with cap in hand to Westminster and ask politely for the above? You would have been laughed home. It is, was and always will be the only solution to the situation at the time.
Ballocks
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 25, 2018, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: red hander on October 25, 2018, 08:44:12 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 25, 2018, 07:29:45 PM
Quote from: red hander on October 25, 2018, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 25, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?
All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?
Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.
But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.
I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.
What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?
Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British
Maybe. Bit simplistic, though, considering the British Empire over its lifetime was responsible for vastly more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined. Bit hard to sit on your hands when all that's going on, would you not agree?
Maybe....who knows...most Irish men didnt sit on their hands they went to fight for that Empire instead of fighting it
Not sure on your stats BTW could you give me a quick break down?
Give this a read:
http://worldsworstmassmurderer.blogspot.com/
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on October 25, 2018, 09:32:23 PM
Trailer you seem like an intelligent person, warped but intelligent none the less. WOuld it be fair to say that the IRA came out of Bloody Sunday with a renewed purpose and support? So peaceful protests and walks end up with regular human beings being shot? So if you can't protest, you can't vote fairly, you can't rent a house, what exactly was your solution? Walk with cap in hand to Westminster and ask politely for the above? You would have been laughed home. It is, was and always will be the only solution to the situation at the time.
He'd rather sit in his Ivory tower and cast judgement on Irish men and women who fought just like the Irish men and women before them. His refusal to say where he is from can only be translated to an admission that he certainly isn't from the North and didn't suffer under British occupation but will cast judgement on those from afar. He believes the IRA were the cause and that those in it got out of bed to blow babies up. Amadan
The IRA wasn't the cause but I personally don't know how someone can kill another human being in good conscience. The state was a mess but people are people. Squaddies for example, what was the point in killing them? Young lads from England or Wales or whatever who didn't know better. Just seemed utterly pointless.
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 01:17:59 PM
Thanks for your second contribution to the thread. Just as analytical and thought through as your first one. Imbecile
+1
If you look at the statistics of deaths a lot of either civilians or paramilitaries died when bombs went off at the wrong time, as in Shankill. In the Miami Showband case the 2 UVF thugs who put a bomb in the band's bus were decapitated because of shoddy work. Nothing to do with securing the Union or
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
When a few civilians died due to what was basically incompetence it changed the dynamics from a targeting of other paramilitaries (which was grand) to an attack on
the whole community (which was not).
The gravitas of dying for Ireland or the Union as a paramilitary ignores the technical incompetence angle.
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
The vacuum created in the 60's which the IRA stepped into was by no means blatant opportunism or orchestration by the ra, as a lot of people seem to love to bring up in the late 60's the IRA was woefully under-equipped and was lamented for being short for I Ran Away due to their inability to defend their own people, does that not indicate people were feeling vulnerable and had a belief a physical force aspect of their own was required for their own protection and survival, so they took the next step.
This was eventually filled by the IRA but their membership didn't come out of thin air but from the normal people on the streets that had had enough, or perhaps less so had an ideological drive for something else. For some reason people think the IRA are just waiting in the wings, like they are some external force operating outside of everyday life or community, where as really they were just the ordinary people take extra ordinary measures. I do believe if it wasn't for the situation here the vast majority of IRA members would never have seen the inside of a jail cell in their lives.
Shankill bombing was a disaster, and regrettable in what happened, if it had gone to plan and wiped out the UFF leadership I'd have had no problem with it, in 93 alone the UFF claimed shooting dead 19 Catholic civilians.
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
No they are not, the Begley family said they have nothing to do with it, won't be going to it, but will be attending mass instead to pray for their son and the victims
Quote from: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
No they are not, the Begley family said they have nothing to do with it, won't be going to it, but will be attending mass instead to pray for their son and the victims
Shinners quoted by Naomi Long on twitter as saying they are and that they will attend. either way my comment re SF and memorials still stands.
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 09:41:43 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
No they are not, the Begley family said they have nothing to do with it, won't be going to it, but will be attending mass instead to pray for their son and the victims
Shinners quoted by Naomi Long on twitter as saying they are and that they will attend. either way my comment re SF and memorials still stands.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/shankill-bomber-tribute-snubbed-by-his-own-family-37459694.html
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 09:41:43 AM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
No they are not, the Begley family said they have nothing to do with it, won't be going to it, but will be attending mass instead to pray for their son and the victims
Shinners quoted by Naomi Long on twitter as saying they are and that they will attend. either way my comment re SF and memorials still stands.
I'm sure they'd like to avoid these events and the scrutiny, but denying their roots and alienating republican activists would be disastrous in many ways, not least of which would be leaving a rather large hole for dissidents to exploit.
I remember Begley from going to Ardoyne at the weekends back in the day, I'd have said he was a corner boy at the time, though I didnt know him personally, but always thought that he'd have been an easy recruit, as many lads probably looked up to others as heros and joining up would have elevated him around the area... But I also know of people who joined for different reasons, I'm not sure why he did join but his family lost a son and have had the shame (possibly) of having a son known as a mass murder.
Drawing attention to it will only open up more wounds that don't need to be, would those other murders after the bomb happened? would someones father/son be still around today? The ripple effect from the tit for tat killings affected so many.
There was all sorts of rumours going round after the bomb, Begley had went in and shouted bomb and they grabbed him and the bomb went off, well who'd know that? As anyone that was there died, it was a faulty bomb, or the RA wanted a no warning bomb and no chance for anyone to get out.. Not one UFF member was hurt, not even close, they were not even in the building!
The same goes for every bomb planted here
It struck me years later how mad it was to be involved or put yourself in a position that would/could/will kill someone
Do you ever read what you post?
Quote from: haranguerer on October 26, 2018, 10:27:19 AM
Do you ever read what you post?
"but denying their roots and alienating
republican activists would be disastrous in many ways, not least of which would be leaving a rather large hole for dissidents to exploit"
Do you?
How many republican activists do you know? or are you talking about dissidents? The shinners not going to a memorial would mean nothing, plenty of dead IRA men have had memorials with no one other than their family at them or close friends.. I havent seen the dissidents exploit them
The topic is about the Shankill bomb.. I'm talking about someone who I knew of, and what happened around the time and after it that relates to it..
;D Wtf are you on about now?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
There was all sorts of rumours going round after the bomb, Begley had went in and shouted bomb and they grabbed him and the bomb went off, well who'd know that? As anyone that was there died, it was a faulty bomb, or the RA wanted a no warning bomb and no chance for anyone to get out.. Not one UFF member was hurt, not even close, they were not even in the building!
The same goes for every bomb planted here
Could you explain what 'the same goes for every bomb here' means in the context of the preceding paragraph?
You seem to have taken this personally - to reassure you, this isn't anything to do with you, or who you know, or how great you are, its about your post. My asking if you read it before posting seems a reasonable question in helping me try to make some sense of it. (And just on the shankill bomb, you should probably let Sean Kelly, for one, know that he didn't survive)
Quote from: haranguerer on October 26, 2018, 11:07:08 AM
;D Wtf are you on about now?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
There was all sorts of rumours going round after the bomb, Begley had went in and shouted bomb and they grabbed him and the bomb went off, well who'd know that? As anyone that was there died, it was a faulty bomb, or the RA wanted a no warning bomb and no chance for anyone to get out.. Not one UFF member was hurt, not even close, they were not even in the building!
The same goes for every bomb planted here
Could you explain what 'the same goes for every bomb here' means in the context of the preceding paragraph?
You seem to have taken this personally - to reassure you, this isn't anything to do with you, or who you know, or how great you are, its about your post. My asking if you read it before posting seems a reasonable question in helping me try to make some sense of it. (And just on the shankill bomb, you should probably let Sean Kelly, for one, know that he didn't survive)
That was for the paragraph above it, my bad! every bomb had a ripple effect, causing more hurt, suffering and death.
Sean wasnt in the building when it went off he was outside the door, Begley, to my knowledge went in with the bomb alone, the driver was in the next street.
I read somewhere that an unexpected death hits about 41 people significantly. An awful lot of civilians died in NI.
The Unionists have always been a problem people. Settlers are usually paranoid. There were no rational choices in 1969 after they said no.
Quote from: farset on October 26, 2018, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
joining up would have elevated him around the area...
his family lost a son and have had the shame (possibly) of having a son known as a mass murder.
Joining up to be elevated in the area?? Do you think this guy just wanted to boost his ego? This guy, whilst carrying out a disastrous operation, risked and gave his life for something he obviously believed in and went out to wipe out the leadership of the UFF. I think its an absolute insult to call his joining a movement as some sort of ego drive.
I know of his family and I know a few of his close friends. Ashamed of him they most certainly are not. The opposite in fact.
I said possibly, and I don't know the family.. I knew of him and seen him a lot around Ardoyne.. If they are not ashamed then grand.
I now of plenty kids that joined up from school who didnt have the ideology you speak of, i also now hoods who joined up to not get a beating or shot in the knees..
Quote from: farset on October 26, 2018, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
Begley was an ordinary young man who had an extraordinary life thrusted upon him. He died because of the circumstances of growing up during a war. His family and friends have every right to remember him. He is dead. He is a victim of the vile state that created the conditions for him wanting to wipe out the UFF who murdered hundreds.
Ultimately you or nobody else has the right to tell his family whether or not they can remember and commemorate him. And the Shinners (hypocritcally in my opinion) commemorating him is also their right just as other parties lay poppies for their war dead.
He didn't die because of the circumstances he was born into, he died because he chose to transport a bomb into a busy area putting innocent lives at risk. They didn't have any choice.
Quote from: farset on October 26, 2018, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
joining up would have elevated him around the area...
his family lost a son and have had the shame (possibly) of having a son known as a mass murder.
Joining up to be elevated in the area?? Do you think this guy just wanted to boost his ego? This guy, whilst carrying out a disastrous operation, risked and gave his life for something he obviously believed in and went out to wipe out the leadership of the UFF. I think its an absolute insult to call his joining a movement as some sort of ego drive.
I know of his family and I know a few of his close friends. Ashamed of him they most certainly are not. The opposite in fact.
Maybe they should be, he murder a lot of innocent civilians - that is the bottom line. Republican, of which I am one, are quick to point to disgusting loyalist memorials of mass murderers of catholics. Maybe we should take a look in the mirror too.
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on October 26, 2018, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: farset on October 26, 2018, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 26, 2018, 08:51:37 AM
Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.
Begley was an ordinary young man who had an extraordinary life thrusted upon him. He died because of the circumstances of growing up during a war. His family and friends have every right to remember him. He is dead. He is a victim of the vile state that created the conditions for him wanting to wipe out the UFF who murdered hundreds.
Ultimately you or nobody else has the right to tell his family whether or not they can remember and commemorate him. And the Shinners (hypocritcally in my opinion) commemorating him is also their right just as other parties lay poppies for their war dead.
He didn't die because of the circumstances he was born into, he died because he chose to transport a bomb into a busy area putting innocent lives at risk. They didn't have any choice.
Nor did the likes of Patsy Gillespie with IRA scum holding his family hostage back home.
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on October 25, 2018, 09:32:23 PM
Trailer you seem like an intelligent person, warped but intelligent none the less. WOuld it be fair to say that the IRA came out of Bloody Sunday with a renewed purpose and support? So peaceful protests and walks end up with regular human beings being shot? So if you can't protest, you can't vote fairly, you can't rent a house, what exactly was your solution? Walk with cap in hand to Westminster and ask politely for the above? You would have been laughed home. It is, was and always will be the only solution to the situation at the time.
He'd rather sit in his Ivory tower and cast judgement on Irish men and women who fought just like the Irish men and women before them. His refusal to say where he is from can only be translated to an admission that he certainly isn't from the North and didn't suffer under British occupation but will cast judgement on those from afar. He believes the IRA were the cause and that those in it got out of bed to blow babies up. Amadan
Thank you for your comment. That's twice you've insulted me.
FYI I don't sit in an Ivory Tower casting judgement. I am from the North. Maybe it's me but I'm always a bit edgey when discussing the IRA and someone asks me where I live. Suppose it's a change from the IRA saying 'I know where you live'
Next time SF starts talking about Palestine or anyone talks about any conflict, I'll be sure to remind them that their opinion doesn't count as they weren't there and they shouldn't cast opinions from their "Ivory tower" (Vietnam? You wouldn't know! You weren't there man!!!)
I also loved your comment about the British being the "main protagonists" Gerry Kelly would be proud lol!
Quote from: trailer on October 26, 2018, 03:10:53 PM
Quote from: farset on October 25, 2018, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on October 25, 2018, 09:32:23 PM
Trailer you seem like an intelligent person, warped but intelligent none the less. WOuld it be fair to say that the IRA came out of Bloody Sunday with a renewed purpose and support? So peaceful protests and walks end up with regular human beings being shot? So if you can't protest, you can't vote fairly, you can't rent a house, what exactly was your solution? Walk with cap in hand to Westminster and ask politely for the above? You would have been laughed home. It is, was and always will be the only solution to the situation at the time.
He'd rather sit in his Ivory tower and cast judgement on Irish men and women who fought just like the Irish men and women before them. His refusal to say where he is from can only be translated to an admission that he certainly isn't from the North and didn't suffer under British occupation but will cast judgement on those from afar. He believes the IRA were the cause and that those in it got out of bed to blow babies up. Amadan
Thank you for your comment. That's twice you've insulted me.
FYI I don't sit in an Ivory Tower casting judgement. I am from the North. Maybe it's me but I'm always a bit edgey when discussing the IRA and someone asks me where I live. Suppose it's a change from the IRA saying 'I know where you live'
Next time SF starts talking about Palestine or anyone talks about any conflict, I'll be sure to remind them that their opinion doesn't count as they weren't there and they shouldn't cast opinions from their "Ivory tower" (Vietnam? You wouldn't know! You weren't there man!!!)
I also loved your comment about the British being the "main protagonists" Gerry Kelly would be proud lol!
The British certainly created the circumsatnces, but if you were looking for a main protagonist it would surely be the Unionist Parliament at Stormont.
Quote from: Itchy on October 26, 2018, 02:03:45 PM
Quote from: farset on October 26, 2018, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
joining up would have elevated him around the area...
his family lost a son and have had the shame (possibly) of having a son known as a mass murder.
Joining up to be elevated in the area?? Do you think this guy just wanted to boost his ego? This guy, whilst carrying out a disastrous operation, risked and gave his life for something he obviously believed in and went out to wipe out the leadership of the UFF. I think its an absolute insult to call his joining a movement as some sort of ego drive.
I know of his family and I know a few of his close friends. Ashamed of him they most certainly are not. The opposite in fact.
Maybe they should be, he murder a lot of innocent civilians - that is the bottom line. Republican, of which I am one, are quick to point to disgusting loyalist memorials of mass murderers of catholics. Maybe we should take a look in the mirror too.
But is it not case that the IRA didn't intentionally kill civilians 95% of the time? The targets of their shootings/bombings were for the most part security forces or Paramilitaries? There are obvious glaring exceptions like Enniskillen, but for the most part they didn't go for Civilians. Likely opening myself up to the Anti-brigade here but whatever. Someone said above about how a person was shot through the window after the Shankill bomb and he in fact turned out to be a protestant, there's not too many examples of this on the other side.
Quote from: Therealdonald on October 26, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 26, 2018, 02:03:45 PM
Quote from: farset on October 26, 2018, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 26, 2018, 10:08:52 AM
joining up would have elevated him around the area...
his family lost a son and have had the shame (possibly) of having a son known as a mass murder.
Joining up to be elevated in the area?? Do you think this guy just wanted to boost his ego? This guy, whilst carrying out a disastrous operation, risked and gave his life for something he obviously believed in and went out to wipe out the leadership of the UFF. I think its an absolute insult to call his joining a movement as some sort of ego drive.
I know of his family and I know a few of his close friends. Ashamed of him they most certainly are not. The opposite in fact.
Maybe they should be, he murder a lot of innocent civilians - that is the bottom line. Republican, of which I am one, are quick to point to disgusting loyalist memorials of mass murderers of catholics. Maybe we should take a look in the mirror too.
But is it not case that the IRA didn't intentionally kill civilians 95% of the time? The targets of their shootings/bombings were for the most part security forces or Paramilitaries? There are obvious glaring exceptions like Enniskillen, but for the most part they didn't go for Civilians. Likely opening myself up to the Anti-brigade here but whatever. Someone said above about how a person was shot through the window after the Shankill bomb and he in fact turned out to be a protestant, there's not too many examples of this on the other side.
I was referring to this man and this incident only. Nothing to be proud of.
Quote from: seafoid on October 26, 2018, 06:45:31 AM
If you look at the statistics of deaths a lot of either civilians or paramilitaries died when bombs went off at the wrong time, as in Shankill. In the Miami Showband case the 2 UVF thugs who put a bomb in the band's bus were decapitated because of shoddy work. Nothing to do with securing the Union or
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
When a few civilians died due to what was basically incompetence it changed the dynamics from a targeting of other paramilitaries (which was grand) to an attack on
the whole community (which was not).
The gravitas of dying for Ireland or the Union as a paramilitary ignores the technical incompetence angle.
Somerville and that other cnut Boyle were UDR, wearing their uniforms that night and members of the Glenanne Gang, who along with many more UDR and RUC scum, were running rampant in Mid Ulster murdering nationalists left, right and centre without hindrance in that period. The legal forces of the British state. They did the exact same throughout their empire.
Do soldiers get accused of murder or manslaughter?
Does the person who launched a drone bomb which hits a hospital in Afghanistan get accused of murder or manslaughter?
The Shankill bombers set out to kill UVF members, but for whatever reason ended up killing civilians. Is that murder or manslaughter?
Quote from: Orior on October 26, 2018, 05:45:54 PM
Do soldiers get accused of murder or manslaughter?
Does the person who launched a drone bomb which hits a hospital in Afghanistan get accused of murder or manslaughter?
The Shankill bombers set out to kill UVF members, but for whatever reason ended up killing civilians. Is that murder or manslaughter?
McGurks bar, murder or manslaughter?
Quote from: Orior on October 26, 2018, 05:45:54 PM
Do soldiers get accused of murder or manslaughter?
Does the person who launched a drone bomb which hits a hospital in Afghanistan get accused of murder or manslaughter?
The Shankill bombers set out to kill UVF members, but for whatever reason ended up killing civilians. Is that murder or manslaughter?
Are you talking the intricacies of the law here or what you believe?
Murder is premeditated. They went out to kill people and they killed people albeit not the ones they wanted. I am not sure that is the exact letter of the law here but in any sane mind that is murder and the people are murderers...
Thomas Begley's family now attending the gathering at the IRA plot. This is a change from earlier in the week when they said that they would not attend.
Quote from: trailer on October 27, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
Thomas Begley's family now attending the gathering at the IRA plot. This is a change from earlier in the week when they said that they would not attend.
The (rotten) apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Quote from: farset on October 27, 2018, 06:41:19 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 27, 2018, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 27, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
Thomas Begley's family now attending the gathering at the IRA plot. This is a change from earlier in the week when they said that they would not attend.
The (rotten) apple didn't fall far from the tree.
You're a disgrace. The family have a right to attend anything that involves remembering their son. He was in the IRA. What the IRA did was wrong that day and completely stupid but he carried out what he was asked with an operation of wiping out the UFF leadership.
Why weren't the UFF there? Who made the bomb go off prematurely? It certainly wasn't a suicide mission. Just like countless other incidents, the spooks were involved.
What is your take on O'Malley, Breen, Pearse, Collins, Brugha?
More like what's your take on Craig and Carson, michaelg?
Quote from: michaelg on October 27, 2018, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 27, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
Thomas Begley's family now attending the gathering at the IRA plot. This is a change from earlier in the week when they said that they would not attend.
The (rotten) apple didn't fall far from the tree.
cnut....
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 27, 2018, 07:20:20 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 27, 2018, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 27, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
Thomas Begley's family now attending the gathering at the IRA plot. This is a change from earlier in the week when they said that they would not attend.
The (rotten) apple didn't fall far from the tree.
cnut....
I think the biggest cnut was the guy who murdered 9 innocent people out shopping on a Saturday afternoon.
The IRA was formed to protect the Irish prople against tyranny. The young the old the sick the defenseless and people who couldn't defend themselves. It was a thankless horrible job. You were either going to be put in jail or killed unless you made it out of the Country. However the enemy was calculated sinister turning weaker Republicans into traitors. Committing crimes outside Republican ideology and principles with devastating effect which ultimately killed the movement and its support.
Watched this programme last night on iPlayer. Sombering to say the least. I'd be fairly certain however that this was an operation that was compromised. I've read somewhere that begley wasn't a member of the ra that long so probably used as a patsy along with kelly. The getaway car didn't hang around anyway
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shankill-road-bomb-ira-double-agent-deliberately-set-device-to-explode-prematurely-a6833581.html%3famp (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shankill-road-bomb-ira-double-agent-deliberately-set-device-to-explode-prematurely-a6833581.html%3famp)
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on October 27, 2018, 09:02:51 PM
The IRA was formed to protect the Irish prople against tyranny. The young the old the sick the defenseless and people who couldn't defend themselves. It was a thankless horrible job. You were either going to be put in jail or killed unless you made it out of the Country. However the enemy was calculated sinister turning weaker Republicans into traitors. Committing crimes outside Republican ideology and principles with devastating effect which ultimately killed the movement and its support.
I've read some shite in my time but this takes the biscuit.
Quote from: farset on October 27, 2018, 06:41:19 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 27, 2018, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 27, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
Thomas Begley's family now attending the gathering at the IRA plot. This is a change from earlier in the week when they said that they would not attend.
The (rotten) apple didn't fall far from the tree.
You're a disgrace. The family have a right to attend anything that involves remembering their son. He was in the IRA. What the IRA did was wrong that day and completely stupid but he carried out what he was asked with an operation of wiping out the UFF leadership.
Why weren't the UFF there? Who made the bomb go off prematurely? It certainly wasn't a suicide mission. Just like countless other incidents, the spooks were involved.
What is your take on O'Malley, Breen, Pearse, Collins, Brugha?
Gerry probably told them not to be there, while tasking Freddy to find out who was informing.
Safe to say your under 25. Idiot!
This guy murdered innocent people, plain and simple. There are a lot of grey areas in things that happened here during the troubles but not here. He transported explosives into a heavily populated area on a busy afternoon.
There is no justification for this.
Quote from: Baile an tuaigh on October 27, 2018, 09:02:51 PM
The IRA was formed to protect the Irish prople against tyranny. The young the old the sick the defenseless and people who couldn't defend themselves. It was a thankless horrible job. You were either going to be put in jail or killed unless you made it out of the Country. However the enemy was calculated sinister turning weaker Republicans into traitors. Committing crimes outside Republican ideology and principles with devastating effect which ultimately killed the movement and its support.
LOL you're too long in America lad.
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on October 27, 2018, 10:48:39 PM
This guy murdered innocent people, plain and simple. There are a lot of grey areas in things that happened here during the troubles but not here. He transported explosives into a heavily populated area on a busy afternoon.
There is no justification for this.
Listen you f**king dungbag , what part of this don't you understand? The 2 of them went into the shop to leave a bomb , get whoever was in the actual shop out the doors , lite the fuse and hopefully kill Jonny Adair and his cronies upstairs . Do you think they were trying to blow themselves up?
Of course, as we now know , they or whoever sent them made a complete balls of it. A load of innocent people were killed and that is without doubt horrible. They weren't trying to kill the people they killed , but it happened. Things like this happen in a war.
Unlike the loyalists who murdered defenseless nationalists as they sat at their dinner tables and in bars with zero political allegiances to anyone . These weren't accidents so to speak. So how about you swallow a go f**k yourself pill ?
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 27, 2018, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on October 27, 2018, 10:48:39 PM
This guy murdered innocent people, plain and simple. There are a lot of grey areas in things that happened here during the troubles but not here. He transported explosives into a heavily populated area on a busy afternoon.
There is no justification for this.
Listen you f**king dungbag , what part of this don't you understand? The 2 of them went into the shop to leave a bomb , get whoever was in the actual shop out the doors , lite the fuse and hopefully kill Jonny Adair and his cronies upstairs . Do you think they were trying to blow themselves up?
Of course, as we now know , they or whoever sent them made a complete balls of it. A load of innocent people were killed and that is without doubt horrible. They weren't trying to kill the people they killed , but it happened. Things like this happen in a war.
Unlike the loyalists who murdered defenseless nationalists as they sat at their dinner tables and in bars with zero political allegiances to anyone . These weren't accidents so to speak. So how about you swallow a go f**k yourself pill ?
Look there was plenty 'mistakes' and plenty 'innocent' people were murdered. One that sticks with me was the guy tied to a truck and blown up.. the Shankill butchers another and very close to my past..
The feuds always struck me as crazy and took the life of a school friend after a Gaelic match at the ground!
The 'war' was pure rotten, and people claiming the brits fought dirty, everyone fought dirty. What did people expect? Anyone who signed up knew what could happen and accepted it.
3 plus thousand died over that period and it's bizarre listening to some of the stuff here about the spooks, Queensbury rules didn't apply
Glad it's over, glad I got through it unscathed and my heart goes out to anyone who lost someone dear to them, had my experience been different I could be writing something different..
my memories of the troubles are varied, and if I started to tell my kids about them they wouldn't believe me.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 28, 2018, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 27, 2018, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on October 27, 2018, 10:48:39 PM
This guy murdered innocent people, plain and simple. There are a lot of grey areas in things that happened here during the troubles but not here. He transported explosives into a heavily populated area on a busy afternoon.
There is no justification for this.
Listen you f**king dungbag , what part of this don't you understand? The 2 of them went into the shop to leave a bomb , get whoever was in the actual shop out the doors , lite the fuse and hopefully kill Jonny Adair and his cronies upstairs . Do you think they were trying to blow themselves up?
Of course, as we now know , they or whoever sent them made a complete balls of it. A load of innocent people were killed and that is without doubt horrible. They weren't trying to kill the people they killed , but it happened. Things like this happen in a war.
Unlike the loyalists who murdered defenseless nationalists as they sat at their dinner tables and in bars with zero political allegiances to anyone . These weren't accidents so to speak. So how about you swallow a go f**k yourself pill ?
Look there was plenty 'mistakes' and plenty 'innocent' people were murdered. One that sticks with me was the guy tied to a truck and blown up.. the Shankill butchers another and very close to my past..
The feuds always struck me as crazy and took the life of a school friend after a Gaelic match at the ground!
The 'war' was pure rotten, and people claiming the brits fought dirty, everyone fought dirty. What did people expect? Anyone who signed up knew what could happen and accepted it.
3 plus thousand died over that period and it's bizarre listening to some of the stuff here about the spooks, Queensbury rules didn't apply
Glad it's over, glad I got through it unscathed and my heart goes out to anyone who lost someone dear to them, had my experience been different I could be writing something different..
my memories of the troubles are varied, and if I started to tell my kids about them they wouldn't believe me.
Theres a great Netflix documentary about the Vietnam war. In it one of the US Veterans says (and Im paraphrasing) "dont dare question my morality, until youve walked in my shoes". I think that sentiment would apply to conflicts the world over
People are viewing the events of the past through the lens of the present, and it doesnt work
I remember the guy saying that, and it struck a chord.. as I said had things been different I could have walked in those shoes and been giving a different 'account'
Ha, you seem to think you the only one on here who was born in the early 70's and seen horrible things; maybe a person doesnt live in ivory towers; banned elephant hunting many years ago by the way! i seen a 13yrs old hit by a dum dum bullet in the arm in a uvf attack;as i was ducking for cover myself not knowing what was happening! Did i turn round and join the Ira; No, you talk about ordinary people living extraordinary lifes like Begley; Maybe you should ask the youngest victim of the bombing! She never seen 8 so she had a short life no matter how good or bad it may have been!
Kinda weird even tho yous are arguing nearly every post I read I agree with.
Good to read some of your stories
Twas a messed up period pretty sure tho it is a bad idea to cast judgement back in time. What happened happened best to learn from it as best as we can..I can only hope I have.
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 27, 2018, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on October 27, 2018, 10:48:39 PM
This guy murdered innocent people, plain and simple. There are a lot of grey areas in things that happened here during the troubles but not here. He transported explosives into a heavily populated area on a busy afternoon.
There is no justification for this.
Listen you f**king dungbag , what part of this don't you understand? The 2 of them went into the shop to leave a bomb , get whoever was in the actual shop out the doors , lite the fuse and hopefully kill Jonny Adair and his cronies upstairs . Do you think they were trying to blow themselves up?
Of course, as we now know , they or whoever sent them made a complete balls of it. A load of innocent people were killed and that is without doubt horrible. They weren't trying to kill the people they killed , but it happened. Things like this happen in a war.
Unlike the loyalists who murdered defenseless nationalists as they sat at their dinner tables and in bars with zero political allegiances to anyone . These weren't accidents so to speak. So how about you swallow a go f**k yourself pill ?
What a totally ignorant response to a poster who has a different opinion to you!!!!
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 09:16:03 AM
One of the most frustrating parts when this topic is discussed is that when people don't read what you write and then leave you to reply to every horrible cherry picked example that was inexcusable and wrong. Indeed they were war crimes!
The part that I feel you are completely misunderstanding is that I am not here to defend what the IRA did. I have already stated that they committed atrocities. So the child in the Shankill bombing or the killing of the fella who was forced to drive the bomb were horrible and unjustifiable.
I'm far from saying that I am the only person born in the 70s. I assume the demographic of people sitting on the Gaaboard are much the same as me. What I am able to provide is a local context that many here wouldn't in that I come from a Republican family, I grew up in a poor and marginalised community where many people joined the IRA to fight what they saw was the cause to their ills and yes I have lost members of my family. I understand that many don't share that upbringing or whose parents were motivated by different things in life. Some of my friends' parents were pacafist, church going people whose children were the same. That's OK and they grew up where I did. But it just isn't that simple. I used the term Ivory tower because I think its appropriate for those who look in and judge or who get their information from West Brit journalists. And I also draw comparisons to previous military efforts because it exposes hypocrites. This war didn't invent itself. People have always risen up and fought against the British. Your clubs are named after hundreds that did exactly what IRA volunteers did in the past. Nobody said war was nice. Thank God its over and that my children didnt have to go through what many of us did. That fear took a long time to disappear and I take solace that young people no longer have to experience that.
Just because you didn't join the IRA doesn't mean that their motivations were murderous from sectarian bloodlust. Republicans lost many many people too and thousands of years were spent away from their families in jails. Many were killed during the war by the British army and Loyalists on active service and some were shot in the back in war crimes when they were clearly and evidently unarmed.
I think it's all probably a waste of time replying to be honest and trying to contribute to this. We could all cherry pick examples of horrible thugs but as someone posted previously its easy to look at the past through the lense of today.
Thomas Begley had a family too though and had he been born in Kerry or somewhere else would probably have played a bit of football, got married and would still be alive today. The conditions he grew up in created him and many like him. They might not have created you but Thomas Begley wasn't a lone wolf who decided to murder 9 people on the Shankill and take his own life intentionally. Let him and everyone else rest in peace.
Great post
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 28, 2018, 08:38:57 AM
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 27, 2018, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on October 27, 2018, 10:48:39 PM
This guy murdered innocent people, plain and simple. There are a lot of grey areas in things that happened here during the troubles but not here. He transported explosives into a heavily populated area on a busy afternoon.
There is no justification for this.
Listen you f**king dungbag , what part of this don't you understand? The 2 of them went into the shop to leave a bomb , get whoever was in the actual shop out the doors , lite the fuse and hopefully kill Jonny Adair and his cronies upstairs . Do you think they were trying to blow themselves up?
Of course, as we now know , they or whoever sent them made a complete balls of it. A load of innocent people were killed and that is without doubt horrible. They weren't trying to kill the people they killed , but it happened. Things like this happen in a war.
Unlike the loyalists who murdered defenseless nationalists as they sat at their dinner tables and in bars with zero political allegiances to anyone . These weren't accidents so to speak. So how about you swallow a go f**k yourself pill ?
What a totally ignorant response to a poster who has a different opinion to you!!!!
[/quote
BS.... I'm sure he read through all the posts. He clearly chose to ignore what actually happened on the day. Do you honestly think this was a suicide mission ??
The IRA was not about equality or empowering the people. If you came from a marginalised area (like I did) joining the RA was not the way to gain equality. Also the were not "defending" communities. Terrorising them would be more accurate.
The IRA existed to get the Brits out of Ireland (and if they could line their pockets while they went about it sure that was grand to). One aim, Brits out. SF and others are pushing other bullshit narratives. But as I heard someone say, they have to tell lies, cause they daren't tell the truth.
Im not suggesting he was on a suicide mission or that he meant for that bomb to go off when it did. However, the fact remains that those people died because of his actions that day. The intended targets may have been loyalist paramilitaries but his recklessness resulted in the death of innocent people.
Im not ignoring context here, i guess i just dont see how you can justify putting innocent peoples lives at risk. If that means im in an ivory tower or im a f*cking dung bag then so be it but thats my view.
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
Be interested to hear a response to this post.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 28, 2018, 05:24:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
Be interested to hear a response to this post.
The usual weasel words I predict ,!!
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
Much as I hate to stoop to whataboutery, the british interned many innocent people, and carried out a shoot to kill policy, but then wouldn't give political status to prisoners.
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
I disagree fundamentally with you on most things, but you are exactly right war is kill or be killed, but in the same way the British denied it was war this was all about the propaganda. And we are still at it on this island lauding the armed insurrection of the "old" IRA and UVF whilst denouncing the recent manifestations. Time to stop the hypocrisy and move on.
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 29, 2018, 08:42:12 AM
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
I disagree fundamentally with you on most things, but you are exactly right war is kill or be killed, but in the same way the British denied it was war this was all about the propaganda. And we are still at it on this island lauding the armed insurrection of the "old" IRA and UVF whilst denouncing the recent manifestations. Time to stop the hypocrisy and move on.
It wasn't a conventional war with 2 armies of soldiers in uniform. It was more like a partisan war. For a lot of unionists it was about law and order.
IRA prisoners were not given the recognition that uniformed prisoners of war would have had. They couldn't arm like a proper army.
The paramilitaries were not soldiers and didn't have the training that soldiers have which is one of the reasons the bombs were so volatile.
The whole thing was a joke really because it was so pointless.
The Unionists could have ended it all at any time if they wanted to. Because of the Unionists it went on far longer than it should have. Sunningdale for slow learners.
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 28, 2018, 05:50:29 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 28, 2018, 05:24:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: farset on October 28, 2018, 12:26:46 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 27, 2018, 11:57:26 PM
G did we get an influx of sinner bots on this! Alot of people have the blinkers on, sending a man into a populated area to let off a bomb indefensible! So they get everyone out of the shop; you think no-one gona die outside when this goes off! What your excuses for putting a man in a car with a bomb then senting them up to police^army check points to get blown up! Suppose it was a war line makes it alright!
Shinner bot? Most certainly not. I'd be extremely critical of SF. But I was born early 70s and lived through a lot of shit so I'm speaking a lot from experience and I hate when someone sitting in an ivory tower somewhere casting judgement on the death of an ordinary young man from Ardoyne who died and labelling him as a mass murderer or a terrorist without any context whatsoever. I hate it worst when those sat in said ivory towers will commemorate Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha et all but then use the "ah but that was different" card.
Horrible things happened and what you mentioned was horrible and indeed a war crime. Not justifying any atrocity or killing. Merely trying to articulate (onto deaf ears it seems) that these people didn't wake up one day and decide to murder people out of bloodthirst but that they were ordinary people living extraordinary lives during a f**king{ war
It is much too simplistic to go full Ruth Dudley Edwards on the issue, which many have done.
So no. Certainly not a Shinner bot. But not a hypocritic either.
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
Be interested to hear a response to this post.
The usual weasel words I predict ,!!
Where have you guys been for the past 40 years, any cow in the field that lived through the troubles could explain this to you in a minute flat ffs .
Quote from: michaelg on October 28, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
With respect to the use of the term 'war', it strikes me that Republicans want to have it both ways. If it was a 'war' why do Republicans complain when the security forces "executed" IRA terrorsists on 'active service'. What's wrong with a 'shoot to kill policy' if there is a war going on? Also, I'm pretty sure murdering greengrocers etc who supplied police and army bases would not be allowed in the Geneva Convention.
Just like shooting 14 year old wee girls in the back isn't allowed in the Geneva Convention but you won't see any Brits before a judge anytime soon. In fact, you'll have unionists and their Tory overlords campaigning on behalf of these poor soldiers, who are clearly victims of a witch hunt ::)
It's all well and good holding the IRA to account on the same level as the Brit army but the reality is PIRA probably wouldn't have come into existence only for obvious reasons eg Unionist misrule and British gov arrogance and indifference. You have one of the most powerful military forces in the world, using shoot to kill policies (while denying it) and engaging in urban Warfare (while also denying being at war). That's why republicans "complained".
I think every volunteer was reminded when joining that they'd either die, end up on the run or in prison. So i don't think republicans were under any illusion that they faced the prospect of being shot dead; it's moreso the dubious circumstances in which these incidents occurred (ie unarmed or surrendering) and the trying of them before diplock courts (despite them supposedly being criminals) that irked some.
The Brits were also running agents in Unionist death squads who murdered catholic civilians at will in what are British streets, wonder is that allowed under Geneva convention?
They were running agents in both camps, allowing death squads away with murder, Steak knife being the most known
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
They were running agents in both camps, allowing death squads away with murder, Steak knife being the most known
That doesn't seem to qualify as "collusion" in some quarters.
Quote from: michaelg on October 29, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
They were running agents in both camps, allowing death squads away with murder, Steak knife being the most known
That doesn't seem to qualify as "collusion" in some quarters.
Far from terrorising Britain or indeed Loyalists/ Unionists, the IRA terrorised it's own community first. Drug dealing, racketeering, robbery, punishment beatings etc. This is what the IRA did for Nationalists.
Quote from: trailer on October 29, 2018, 04:57:55 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 29, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
They were running agents in both camps, allowing death squads away with murder, Steak knife being the most known
That doesn't seem to qualify as "collusion" in some quarters.
Far from terrorising Britain or indeed Loyalists/ Unionists, the IRA terrorised it's own community first. Drug dealing, racketeering, robbery, punishment beatings etc. This is what the IRA did for Nationalists.
Not so much drug dealing going on back in the day, more of a dissidents thing and a loyalist, racketeering was bad but in West Belfast that stopped completely during the 90's
As for hoods getting a beating after breaking into houses robbing granny's of their pension or stealing people's cars and killing people or maiming them, there wasn't much sympathy for them at the time in fairness
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
I didn't fear the provos, and I'd no fear of the Brits, now if I had have joined the RA I'd have given anyone one of those groups a reason to put a bullet into my head for various reasons..
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 06:21:25 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
I didn't fear the provos, and I'd no fear of the Brits, now if I had have joined the RA I'd have given anyone one of those groups a reason to put a bullet into my head for various reasons..
Ooooh you are sooo hard.......
Many Nationalists feared the Provos For various reasons
Quote from: farset on October 29, 2018, 06:24:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on October 29, 2018, 04:57:55 PM
Quote from: michaelg on October 29, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
They were running agents in both camps, allowing death squads away with murder, Steak knife being the most known
That doesn't seem to qualify as "collusion" in some quarters.
Far from terrorising Britain or indeed Loyalists/ Unionists, the IRA terrorised it's own community first. Drug dealing, racketeering, robbery, punishment beatings etc. This is what the IRA did for Nationalists.
The above is proof that you, sir are full of bollocks.
Another excellent retort. Given you come across as a Neanderthal, I shall stop replying to you.
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 09:30:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 06:21:25 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
I didn't fear the provos, and I'd no fear of the Brits, now if I had have joined the RA I'd have given anyone one of those groups a reason to put a bullet into my head for various reasons..
Ooooh you are sooo hard.......
Many Nationalists feared the Provos For various reasons
No jim, daft sweeping statements make you look silly..
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 10:23:38 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 09:30:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 06:21:25 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
I didn't fear the provos, and I'd no fear of the Brits, now if I had have joined the RA I'd have given anyone one of those groups a reason to put a bullet into my head for various reasons..
Ooooh you are sooo hard.......
Many Nationalists feared the Provos For various reasons
No jim, daft sweeping statements make you look silly..
My statements are facts. Grew up during the troubles in a nationalist/republican area. Saw a lot of their actions against the nationalist community at close hand. Thankfully the majority of nationalists chose not to vote for them during their campaign. It was only when they threw in the towel and embraced exclusively peaceful politics that they secured the majority Nationalist vote
Fact or not there'd have been no provos if it wasn't for british policy and misrule in Ireland
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 11:00:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 10:23:38 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 09:30:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 06:21:25 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
I didn't fear the provos, and I'd no fear of the Brits, now if I had have joined the RA I'd have given anyone one of those groups a reason to put a bullet into my head for various reasons..
Ooooh you are sooo hard.......
Many Nationalists feared the Provos For various reasons
No jim, daft sweeping statements make you look silly..
My statements are facts. Grew up during the troubles in a nationalist/republican area. Saw a lot of their actions against the nationalist community at close hand. Thankfully the majority of nationalists chose not to vote for them during their campaign. It was only when they threw in the towel and embraced exclusively peaceful politics that they secured the majority Nationalist vote
So the nationalist in your area felt under siege from the IRA? And would have been killed just as quick as a loyalist gang or intimidated the Brit's on patrol? Where did you grow up? Cork?
Grew up in East Tyrone so I witnessed a lot. The Provos intimidated and physically attacked anyone who were prepared to speak out against them. Sure they even blew up the centre of Coalisland in 1986 just to level an aul police barracks. Many local nationalist residents got their houses and businesses wrecked that night. Did the Provos care? Not a jot. They cared nothing about ordinary nationalist people. Thank God they threw in the towel.
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 11:00:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 10:23:38 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 09:30:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 29, 2018, 06:21:25 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 29, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
Nationalists had to fear from Provos, loyalists and British Army.
Anyone of those groups would have thought nothing of putting a bullet into any nationalist's head
I didn't fear the provos, and I'd no fear of the Brits, now if I had have joined the RA I'd have given anyone one of those groups a reason to put a bullet into my head for various reasons..
Ooooh you are sooo hard.......
Many Nationalists feared the Provos For various reasons
No jim, daft sweeping statements make you look silly..
My statements are facts. Grew up during the troubles in a nationalist/republican area. Saw a lot of their actions against the nationalist community at close hand. Thankfully the majority of nationalists chose not to vote for them during their campaign. It was only when they threw in the towel and embraced exclusively peaceful politics that they secured the majority Nationalist vote
That is incorrect, SF's vote started to rise from the "Armlite and Ballot Box" strategy devised by Danny Morrison. The voting patterns of both communities in NI is much more complex than provo good provo bad. I voted SF through out the troubles not because I supported violence but as a reaction to the active denial by the state of my rights and identity. I never did nor do I now support the use of arms. But one thing I am sure of is that Unionism and the British would not have signed up to the GFA if it hadn't been for the violence. They are not capable of recognising the rights of others and their one dimensional veiw of the north since partition is reflected sadly in some of the holier than thou comments on here.
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 30, 2018, 12:11:55 AM
Grew up in East Tyrone so I witnessed a lot. The Provos intimidated and physically attacked anyone who were prepared to speak out against them. Sure they even blew up the centre of Coalisland in 1986 just to level an aul police barracks. Many local nationalist residents got their houses and businesses wrecked that night. Did the Provos care? Not a jot. They cared nothing about ordinary nationalist people. Thank God they threw in the towel.
I may be wrong here but I think the provos are held in quite high esteem in east tyrone
Quote from: hardstation on October 30, 2018, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on October 30, 2018, 10:00:40 AM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 30, 2018, 12:11:55 AM
Grew up in East Tyrone so I witnessed a lot. The Provos intimidated and physically attacked anyone who were prepared to speak out against them. Sure they even blew up the centre of Coalisland in 1986 just to level an aul police barracks. Many local nationalist residents got their houses and businesses wrecked that night. Did the Provos care? Not a jot. They cared nothing about ordinary nationalist people. Thank God they threw in the towel.
I may be wrong here but I think the provos are held in quite high esteem in east tyrone
Obviously. Sure they bombed Coalisland in 1986.
What town wasn't affected by a bomb?
Quote from: hardstation on October 30, 2018, 10:17:43 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 30, 2018, 10:12:19 AM
Quote from: hardstation on October 30, 2018, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: general_lee on October 30, 2018, 10:00:40 AM
Quote from: Jim Bob on October 30, 2018, 12:11:55 AM
Grew up in East Tyrone so I witnessed a lot. The Provos intimidated and physically attacked anyone who were prepared to speak out against them. Sure they even blew up the centre of Coalisland in 1986 just to level an aul police barracks. Many local nationalist residents got their houses and businesses wrecked that night. Did the Provos care? Not a jot. They cared nothing about ordinary nationalist people. Thank God they threw in the towel.
I may be wrong here but I think the provos are held in quite high esteem in east tyrone
Obviously. Sure they bombed Coalisland in 1986.
What town wasn't affected by a bomb?
Whoosh!
My post was for Jim! should have unquoted you ;)
Waiting on Nolan's programme on Greysteel and rory and Gerard Cairns....waiting......waiting...
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 31, 2018, 09:28:31 AM
Waiting on Nolan's programme on Greysteel and rory and Gerard Cairns....waiting......waiting...
Was it mentioned?
Quote from: Dire Ear on October 31, 2018, 11:48:37 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 31, 2018, 09:28:31 AM
Waiting on Nolan's programme on Greysteel and rory and Gerard Cairns....waiting......waiting...
Was it mentioned?
Greysteel was yesterday, interviews etc