I am surprised that this has not been disussed. This brawl was pretty serious stuff. There needs to be an investigation into how the teams came out at the same time. But more importantly the culprits need to be identified and the appropriate suspensions handed down. After all a players get suspended for way less than this for striking and rough play DURING games. The suspensions from the Meath Mayo 1996 final should set the precedent for the suspensions.
Not a chance of anything happening, Frank Murphy will see to that.
great, not a thread about hurling on this board for months, then the only thing picked up on is a scuffle before the game yesterday.
typical. And we'd be jumping down the throats of the papers for doing the same thing.
shame.
There's a thread on the Offaly Laois game as well BT. I'd be interested in the hurling lads opinions on the new qualifier structure there.
I find it odd that if it was footballers involved it would be a national shame, strange what hurlers get away with...
I find it even odder that by losing Clare have all but guaranteed themselves an All-Ireland quarter-final...
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on May 28, 2007, 10:14:34 AM
great, not a thread about hurling on this board for months, then the only thing picked up on is a scuffle before the game yesterday.
typical. And we'd be jumping down the throats of the papers for doing the same thing.
shame.
Although Agorm isn't a normal hurling contributor on the site, there are a few of us floating about.
maybe the BBC will actually show a bit of the hurling tonight eh!!
;)
i think what was more important is the demise of clare- who were bloody awful yesterday. unless carmody and griffin are up front for clare they haven't a hope. I laugh at the competitiveness of the munster championship- which now has 2 teams cork and waterford- one more than leinster.
On the brawl -typical sort of shite clare go on with - lohan started it coming out the tunnel but by the end of the row the clare lads were running away when diarmuid o sullivan and curren got involved. cork never got out of 1st gear and won in canter- clare are set to join the minnows i believe.
didnt see any of it. who started it off? did it last long,
wouldn't fancy getting into a scuffle with big diarmuid!! :'( :'(
Although Agorm isn't a normal hurling contributor on the site, there are a few of us floating about.
maybe the BBC will actually show a bit of the hurling tonight eh!!
;)
[/quote]
Of course they will show the hurling Johnny, just dont blink or you might miss it :-\
Do they pay any attention to what happens in the rest of the country or is it just Ulster football on "the Championship"?
it wasnt a figh or a brawl but RTE had it on a caption as a "Schmozzle" well that may not be the correct spelling, but you get my drift
Yeah Clare were pretty brutal, all this disruption and stand-offs in the camp has taken its toll. As for the fight, well how bad was it. looked like a load of argey-bargey, wouldnt get too excited about it. On the note of why there is not much talk of hurling on here. Well, I could be wrong but I dont see many Cork, Kilkenny, Waterford or Clare fans on here starting topics or disussing hurling. I started the thread on the NHL final and I've no connection to either team!!
I love hurling and wish Meath were a bit more competitive but its losing out to football in a big way. I remember my Dad asked to start a hurling team in the local GAA club and he was told that there was no way they'd do it. Didnt have the funds to do it apparently.
The culprits were the organisers who allowed two charged up teams to meet at full tilt in the tunnel.I saw a Clare man shove Donal Og Cusack, who retaliated with the butt of his hurl and it went on from there. Anthony Daly called it right- what do you expect in such a scenario ? And the comparisons with soccer are silly- at the big games, the teams are meant to walk out together with mascots etc. We are the GAA- there is no better feeling than hitting the pitch at speed for a championship game .Just make sure that two teams don't collide!
According to the GAA Clare were to come out first with Cork 3 mins later, but Cork didnt know what time to come out!!
There is also a bit of an issue that the 'schmozzle' happened in front of Primary School children who were forming a guard of honour for the teams
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on May 28, 2007, 10:14:34 AM
great, not a thread about hurling on this board for months, then the only thing picked up on is a scuffle before the game yesterday.
typical. And we'd be jumping down the throats of the papers for doing the same thing.
shame.
Get lost Bottlethrower, I dont need to apologise to anyone about my committment to hurling, this just happened to be the first big hurling game of the championship and they were a disgrace. Kids around and all, in actual fact as the game had not started the guards should have been called in.
If the hurling fraternity cannot see what is wrong with that then maybe there is a message there in itself. From what I hear they were at it at the start of the Offaly Laois game as well. I actually prefer hurling to football and am trying to get my children to play and buid up a love of the game.
In future comment on the topic or ignore the topic if you have nothing to comment on it.
P.S. - I didnt notice too many threads on Hurling from your good self!!!
BT I have to disagree with you here. I don't usually comment on hurling and this is not about hurling either. It's about yobbery among GAA players – be it hurlers or footballers. We know that footballers are also capable of behaving as the hurlers did yesterday.
What happened in Thurles yesterday before the game started wasn't hurling and to see the hurling/general GAA establishment circle wagons and dismiss it as "all part of the game" is disheartening. Donal O'Grady actually said it was fine because nobody got hit in the head with a hurl! Worse still, people are queuing up to blame the officials in Thurles for allowing both teams out at the same time!!! I thought it was only soccer yobs who needed to be segregated.
It's not that yesterday's carry-on was particularly bad. Indeed Donal is right in one way – nobody got hurt. But we all know it's just one instance of the sort of behaviour, often with much more serious consequences, that happens on GAA fields all over the country, week after week.
For me, the GAA's purpose and very reason for existence is to provide healthy, manly (no apology), socially positive activities for young people. What happens outside Abrakebabra or Supermac's on any Saturday night in any town or village, where youngsters with testosterone out of control have at each other over trivialities, is the opposite of what we are supposed to be promoting. We are supposed to be about positive examples, messages and experiences for kids. Yesterday, we had the "schemozzle" – what a mealy-mouthed weasel word – in front of two lines of kids, invited to be present to witness it!
This kind of street-corner thuggery is much more prevalent in the GAA than it is in soccer (as far as I know, and I mean on-field) and rugby (I'm absolutely certain). You rarely hear of a pre- or post- match brawl among rugby players. I've never heard of a rugby referee being assaulted. Could that be because rugby has more effective sanctions and a healthier culture of sportsmanship and respect for the rules? And let's drop the persecution complex and complaining about the media highlighting this stuff. Let's instead do something to ensure that there's nothing to report.
It's not an over-statement to say that this sort of carry-on is the single biggest obstacle to the growth of the GAA among communities where we should be working hard to promote the values of our sport. My most telling personal insight into that comes from my local pub. It's populated by GAA people, soccer people and rugby people. The only time I can't hold my own in defending the GAA and the games is when incidents like yesterday's come up for discussion, as of course they did last night. It's not just that it's an embarrassment to me, it's that I can't mount an effective argument when people say (as they do) that they would be reluctant to let their kids be part of a culture where this kind of yobbery (no apology for that word, either) is not just tolerated, but defended.
Lots of things that used to be accepted in society no longer are. We (the GAA) seem to have failed to notice that nowadays, society at large recoils when groups of young men lose self-discipline and attack each other physically, whether it's in a pub, in the street or on a sports field. We need to understand that as we try to promote our sport in the twenty-first century. Parents decide the sports their kids play. It's well gone the time when we should take a long hard look at the whole issue of discipline – from mass mini-brawls to abuse of referees, and introduce severe and effective sanctions, once and for all.
Excuse the long rambling post, but I had to get that off my chest.
It's no mystery as to why such incidents occur in the GAA, there are no detterents.
End of story.
I must say I thought the way the comments by O'grady et al on the Sunday game were a disgrace. For anyone is suggest that this is part of the game and acceptable...well its time the O'Gradys were shown the door by RTE. Hurling is gradually becoming more like ice hockey, the fighting is part of the game...lets turn a blind eye.
Who will think of the children!!
I think if you were a young lad on the pitch and these lads came out dunting and banging each other it would be mighty!! It would be one of the best things ever!!
Whether that's an indictment of society or not is another thing
Well said Hardy, I'm glad you had the energy to spell it out, as I don't. The likes of Donal O'Grady should know a hell of a lot more than the likes of me about the need to provide good example to our children. Personally, I'm still reeling from the shock on the face of my 7-year-old after witnessing Matty Forde's antics last year.
Nothing will happen as a result of this disgrace. We're around long enough to realise that. Some faceless official will take the rap for mis-handling the timing of the team's entries. Shur that's all it was. Meanwhile the drip-drip of another few children - and parents - away from our great games will continue behind the scenes. It kills me to think of those kids - and their parents - and how their big day out was ruined.
No doubt Brian O'Meara and Liam Dunne and others will be interested to see how many 3-month suspensions for striking are handed out to Dónal Óg and Co.
blaminmg the fact that the 2 teams ran out togrther is a complete red herring . the englisg soccer thugs excuse . they let us nears trh oppsing fans what could we do but try and recreate the british empire and throw stones at them
Great post Hardy, 100% agree.
And I'm for the hurling rather than the big ball...
Great post Hardy. It's as bad as the old adage "shure it's man's game" whenever someone complains about having a stick drawn across their head from behind!
Do you think Donal Og and his counterparts would accept any ban in the extremely unlikey event that one was imposed?! The GPA would have the "professional" hurling stars of Cork on strike before you could say "Fergal Logan".
2 posts about the Laois-Offaly game. A Cork-Clare thread that is probably on page 3 by now. And this thread, 23 posts long. I rest my case.
Hardy, I made no judgement on the row. I merely made a point that no one here pays a blind bit of notice to hurling until something bad happens. Its often been mentioned on here about the media coming down hard on rows in GAA games, then turning a blind eye to same in rugby and soccer (as is the case). This is principly the same thing.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on May 28, 2007, 01:21:11 PM
2 posts about the Laois-Offaly game. A Cork-Clare thread that is probably on page 3 by now. And this thread, 23 posts long. I rest my case.
Hardy, I made no judgement on the row. I merely made a point that no one here pays a blind bit of notice to hurling until something bad happens. Its often been mentioned on here about the media coming down hard on rows in GAA games, then turning a blind eye to same in rugby and soccer (as is the case). This is principly the same thing.
what rows have there been recently in Irish rugby or soccer?
whitewashing like what you are trying to do wont work. action should be taken, especially because the kids had to scarper for their own safety.
Any chance of a blow by blow from anyone on this schemozzle?
All I saw were the sunday game pictures where some Clare player (Lohan, Lynch??) gave Donal òg a dunt to the back and got the butt of a hurley for his troubles.
After that it cut to the pitch and it seemed a bit more serious there.
It was the first incident that started it though so perhaps these 2 players should be singled out.
What would be a suitable punishment. One match suspension?
Is three months not the going rate for striking with the hurl Timmy?
3 months min to anyone who was swinging.
However I am sure Frank Murphy will exposes some loophole in the book cos the game hadn't commenced.
Now 3 months would definitely cause a strike!!
Over on another website they had it that the stadium announcer called for the crowd to welcome Cork on to the field of play before the 2 teams ran out. They definitely got a welcome.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on May 28, 2007, 01:21:11 PM
2 posts about the Laois-Offaly game. A Cork-Clare thread that is probably on page 3 by now. And this thread, 23 posts long. I rest my case.
Hardy, I made no judgement on the row. I merely made a point that no one here pays a blind bit of notice to hurling until something bad happens. Its often been mentioned on here about the media coming down hard on rows in GAA games, then turning a blind eye to same in rugby and soccer (as is the case). This is principly the same thing.
I can only speak for myself. I joined this post because I was disgusted by the antics yesterday and the panel member's reponses - and the inevitable lip service and inaction that will ensue until the 2nd half of the week when we move into preview mode again. In much the same way as you may perceive yourself to be in a minority whose voice should be heard, I feel the same way when it comes to standing up to the perennial scourge of gratuitous violence in the GAA, and I felt obliged to express my protest. It has nothing to do with the size of the ball.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on May 28, 2007, 01:51:12 PM
However I am sure Frank Murphy will exposes some loophole in the book cos the game hadn't commenced.
Colin Lynch would of needed the holy trinity in his corner rather than in the stands back in 98 when he got his stint for lashing a Waterford lad prior to the throw in. He got three months if my memory serves me correctly.
Timmy may disgree with me, but as Cork were involved, it'll be brushed under the carpet. If it had been say Limerick and Clare there would be wholesale suspensions and fines. The Corks and Kilkenny's of the world seem to operate under a different set of rules than the rest of us.
If anyone except the GAA themselves are blamed for this then the GAA will be just bowing to the media hype on this matter. Letting two psyched up teams leave their dessing rooms to meet in the tunnell outside is simply asking for trouble and the officilas at thurles should have dealt with this. The kind of scenes that resulted were typical fracas that break out regularly on big days on the fileld and no one gets the line. The problem here was they were allowed to meet earlier than usuall and please do not compare this with what happens in soccer matches as one would not be comparing like with like.
The game itself was a clean game and could have done with a bot more spice infact......and for the record, this site is for northern folk interest and others whos only interest in gaa, let alone hurling, is braging about their countys greatness. The thread on antrim hurling has more posts than all the other hurling threads put together...thats says it all. Please visit an fear rua,rebelgaa.com etc etc if you want a proper discussion on the small ball down south.
Diddlyi, why is it OK for two sets of players to set about each other, whether it's before, during or after the game? Is it just media hype to suggest that this is unacceptable? Does this apply to hurling only or to football as well? Is it a long-cherished GAA tradition that must be nurtured and preserved? How is it an official's fault if a Cork player jabs his stick into the ribs of a Clare player, or vice versa? I don't understand that. And, as I brought up before, how is it different to a gang of lads fighting outside Supermac's on a Saturday night?
Didlyi less of the patronising.
its that attitude where us hurling folk up north are looked down upon by the high and mighty which has the game in the state its in.
as John Crossey once said "just cause they talk with a Free State accent doesnt give them a right to win an all-ireland"
Quote from: turk on May 28, 2007, 12:23:38 PM
Who will think of the children!!
I think if you were a young lad on the pitch and these lads came out dunting and banging each other it would be mighty!! It would be one of the best things ever!!
Whether that's an indictment of society or not is another thing
Personally, if I was a youngster in the guard of honour, I would have been thrilled to see all this carry on.
I think the difference between dunting and striking should be clarified in the Rule Books. Jabbing with the butt should not incur the 3 month striking suspension.
The players should be fined a week's wages and warned about their future conduct.
Quote from: aontroim abu on May 28, 2007, 04:51:56 PM
Didlyi less of the patronising.
its that attitude where us hurling folk up north are looked down upon by the high and mighty which has the game in the state its in.
as John Crossey once said "just cause they talk with a Free State accent doesnt give them a right to win an all-ireland"
A ABU,
I was in no way slagin the antrim hurling contributors on this site. I would love nothing more than to see antrim or any other nothern team win an allireland hurling final, my point is that there are others on here who know nothing about hurling but feel that they can make judgement on the way the game has been played for decades. The rules of hurling do not need adjusting!
I loved the brawl before the game - it was pure class - it's what hurling is all about - it's what Sundays in May through September are all about - Its about being Irish - It's about being a man - you just can't beat letting it all out - and the funniest part is about putting your arms around your opponent at the end of the match and shaking hands - ITS PURE CLASS !!!!!!
Quote from: didlyi on May 28, 2007, 09:24:08 PM
Quote from: aontroim abu on May 28, 2007, 04:51:56 PM
Didlyi less of the patronising.
its that attitude where us hurling folk up north are looked down upon by the high and mighty which has the game in the state its in.
as John Crossey once said "just cause they talk with a Free State accent doesnt give them a right to win an all-ireland"
A ABU,
I was in no way slagin the antrim hurling contributors on this site. I would love nothing more than to see antrim or any other nothern team win an allireland hurling final, my point is that there are others on here who know nothing about hurling but feel that they can make judgement on the way the game has been played for decades. The rules of hurling do not need adjusting!
no, they need enforcing.
GAA propose suspensions for Thurles scuffle
The GAA have confirmed that the CCCC have proposed suspensions on a number of players from the Cork and Clare teams arising out of incidents in Sunday's Guinness Munster Hurling Championship first round game in Semple Stadium, Thurles.
It was also confirmed that fines have been proposed to both County Boards in relation to these incidents. The parties involved now have the right to seek a hearing (through the Central Hearing's Committee) if they do not accept the penalties imposed. No further information can be given at this point as the Disciplinary process is ongoing.
It was also confirmed that in relation to the Leinster Hurling Championship first round game between Laois and Offaly, the CCCC are not in a position to take any further disciplinary action in relation to incidents before the start of the game, as the Referee dealt with the situation at the time by issuing yellow cards.
Quote from: orangeman on May 28, 2007, 11:29:47 PM
I loved the brawl before the game - it was pure class - it's what hurling is all about - it's what Sundays in May through September are all about - Its about being Irish - It's about being a man - you just can't beat letting it all out - and the funniest part is about putting your arms around your opponent at the end of the match and shaking hands - ITS PURE CLASS !!!!!!
Isn't that exactly what the Aussies did in the Compromise Rules and look at the whinging we did... ::)
Well Johnney, you were right. I do disagree with you.
It looks like Cork are going to have a goal keeper, full back and wing back all suspended for a Munster semi-final with the league champions.
While Clare will be missing players for a humdinger against Laois or Antrim.
To me this seems that the Cork's and Kilkeny's are being treated more severely than the Clare's and Limericks.
Quote from: timmykelleher on May 30, 2007, 11:32:52 AM
Well Johnney, you were right. I do disagree with you.
It looks like Cork are going to have a goal keeper, full back and wing back all suspended for a Munster semi-final with the league champions.
While Clare will be missing players for a humdinger against Laois or Antrim.
To me this seems that the Cork's and Kilkeny's are being treated more severely than the Clare's and Limericks.
How do you make out that Cork are being treated more harshly in this instance? If the players involved are guilty they deserve what is coming to them. It's just bad luck that they'll miss a more important game than a few round robin games like whatever Clare lads are involved.
I'll still be surprised if the suspensions (3 months :) ) are doled out and stick for their duration .Frank could be racking up a fair bit of travelling expenses over the next few weeks.
Quote from: timmykelleher on May 30, 2007, 11:32:52 AM
Well Johnney, you were right. I do disagree with you.
It looks like Cork are going to have a goal keeper, full back and wing back all suspended for a Munster semi-final with the league champions.
While Clare will be missing players for a humdinger against Laois or Antrim.
To me this seems that the Cork's and Kilkeny's are being treated more severely than the Clare's and Limericks.
You caN ADD a corner back to that list. I'd be slcw to add KK to any list about being treated severely.
Just after backing Cork to win the All Ire.
While I can see the point I do not agree with using the fact that the referee had already issued yellows to be a justification not to implement suspensions in the Laois Offaly game. If the actions warranted suspensions then the suspensions should be imposed. It could be due to all the legal stuff associated with GAA suspensions in recent years. Just because a referee does not see an incident properly or chickens out of a decision should not allow players to get away with this behaviour.
Parents of young children are watching this and they are the ones that generally dictate the sports that a kid plays - I know of situations in which parents make choices other than hurling for their kids because of this random violence.
Hitting an opponent with the hurley is more common in club hurling than county and I must say I have watched games in which this has been going and I have asked myself am I doing my son a disservice by cajoling and encouraging him continually to play and practice hurling. As a game played properly it is definitely the best.
If the rumours are true, then its seriously bad form by the GAA and they should expect some backlash. At most the instigators of the row should be punished. Once something kicks off, of course others are going to get involved. Not condoning what happened or anything like it, but of course lads are going to hop in. It is a team game after all and team mates have each other's backs. Anyone thats ever played the game has been there.
From the names being bandied about it seems anyone that had their picture in the paper, or were highlighted by the Sunday Game, is in contention for a ban. If these 8 players are suspended, it is an absolute discgrace, and will be nothing more than the GAA pandering to the media outcry over something that doesn't concern them.
Its time for the GAA to be strong and to see reason. 1 ban max per team. Preferably none at all and a ban would be enough in my book.
If its a case of sending out a message, it would be unfair to pick on Cork and Clare, at least without a warning.
[/quote]
Isn't that exactly what the Aussies did in the Compromise Rules and look at the whinging we did... ::)
[/quote]
While what happened in Semple was not acceptable, it was nowhere near as bad as the Aussies. They specifically called out a player (Geraghty) spoke about how he should watch himself all week and then Graham gets driven into the ground by the head and knocked unconciouss for several minutes....that was the most sickienng thing i've ever seen in Croke Park and i'm no fan of Meath ;)
Suspend the hurlers involved as per letter of the law and enforce the pre-game procedures as per letter of the law. it's very simple really.
Bottlethrower, with the greatest of respect (and that's not meant to be a cliché in this case), I think your attitude to this is from the last century and this is what we have to change. I know you're not alone – I can imagine the same point of view being articulated by ould lads in flat caps in pubs and clubhouses the length and breadth of Ireland. It's when generally progressive type like yourself display this blind spot to any suggestion that some of the old ways have to change that I despair for the future. You say it's unfair to pick on Cork and Clare to send out a message. I disagree. That's exactly how you send out a message. There's no point in talking, promising or threatening. You do it. It should have been done long ago. If it's not done now, when will this stuff be eradicated?
It's not acceptable for the GAA to take the attitude "of course others will get involved". That's called brawling. Thuggery is another name for it. Other sports (even the semi-savage Aussie Rules) have seen enough of the light to ban mass brawls and specifically sanction not the instigators, but the joiners-in. They realise that they don't exist outside of society and that they depend on society for their supply of players, supporters and members. And society has changed and no longer smiles indulgently on thuggish mass brawls.
The idea that people/teams should get a warning that the rules will now, for a change, be enforced is more farce. And, like it or not, the media are there and watching and influencing. If they don't influence us to clean up our act., they'll influence those who make the choices about the influences they want to subject their kids to.
Excuse the rant. I know you're a true hurling man. I just feel strongly that the future of both games is jeopardised by any hint of indulgence towards this type of carry-on.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on May 30, 2007, 03:45:02 PM
If these 8 players are suspended, it is an absolute discgrace, and will be nothing more than the GAA pandering to the media outcry over something that doesn't concern them.
Its time for the GAA to be strong and to see reason. 1 ban max per team. Preferably none at all and a ban would be enough in my book.
If its a case of sending out a message, it would be unfair to pick on Cork and Clare, at least without a warning.
Again I think you're missing the point. It's not just a media outcry, and as for the outcriers, it does concern "them". It concerns me. I want to be able to sit my young f'la down in front of a top class GAA match on telly - or better still, from the stands - without subjecting him to that kind of shite. God knows he'll see plenty of it at club level, as we all did.
How can you say it doesn't concern "them"? Who are you speaking for? It's more circle-the-wagons bollocks.
(I presume you meant "a fine" where you typed "... a ban would be enough ...".)
First of all - well done to the authorities for dealing with this. I am surprised and disappointed that many of the hurling pundits are somehow trying to justify this being brushed under the carpet. Perhaps they have become immune to much worse happening. While this was not the worst violence ever perpretated on a hurling field it was high profile and for that reason the no tolerance message must be sent out to all levels of the association. I am sure that most of us that follow hurling at a club level for a few years have witnesed blatant thuggery that may have generated no ban or an insuffucient one. This is an opportunity for the GAA to send out a message and set a precedent.
While I can see the point I do not agree with using the fact that the referee had already issued yellows to be a justification not to implement suspensions in the Laois Offaly game. If the actions warranted suspensions then the suspensions should be imposed. It could be due to all the legal stuff associated with GAA suspensions in recent years. Just because a referee does not see an incident properly or chickens out of a decision should not allow players to get away with this behaviour.
Parents of young children are watching this and they are the ones that generally dictate the sports that a kid plays - I know of situations in which parents make choices other than hurling for their kids because of this random violence.
Hitting an opponent with the hurley is more common in club hurling than county and I must say I have watched games in which this has been going and I have asked myself am I doing my son a disservice by cajoling and encouraging him continually to play and practice hurling. As a game played properly it is definitely the best.
Quote from: Hardy on May 30, 2007, 05:01:53 PM
Bottlethrower, with the greatest of respect (and that's not meant to be a cliché in this case), I think your attitude to this is from the last century and this is what we have to change. I know you're not alone – I can imagine the same point of view being articulated by ould lads in flat caps in pubs and clubhouses the length and breadth of Ireland. It's when generally progressive type like yourself display this blind spot to any suggestion that some of the old ways have to change that I despair for the future. You say it's unfair to pick on Cork and Clare to send out a message. I disagree. That's exactly how you send out a message. There's no point in talking, promising or threatening. You do it. It should have been done long ago. If it's not done now, when will this stuff be eradicated?
I'm not suggesting for a second that it should go unpunished. I'm saying its way too excessive a punishment. When is the last time we've ever seen 8 player recieve a ban from a single game? I'd say its unprecedented, including those crazy club and schools games up North when supporters and players became involved in mass brawls. This whole episode reminds me too much of that Carlow-Laois (I think it was) game a few years ago where directives were issued to referees by the central council to have an almost zero tolerance attitude to petty fouls. As a result 7 players saw red over nothing incidents. The GAA hung out those 2 teams and that particular referee by subsequently denying they every issued any kind of directive. If they wanted to set an example, they should have at least warned the teams of it. The same in this case.
Yes Model Hammer, a fine is exactly what I meant. From TV pictures, Lohan and O'Sullivan or Cusack should miss the next game. Both sides get a fine. Book closed.
If they do dole out the supensions they are proposing, I for one would fully back both sides in any action they took to defend their players.
Lets not cloud the issue. No one is condoning the behaviour. What is being criticised is the excessive punishment, which is as a result of the media outcry, which, they can report away on, but have no business sticking their noses in in terms of suggesting bans, etc.
I take your point BT and maybe I hair-triggered on your earlier post. But my point is that we need to eradicate this stuff now – all types of brawling, before, during and after matches. Handing out a few paltry fines now and congratulating ourselves on dealing with it won't do a damn thing about the problem. We need to come down hard and show that it's not acceptable. If a few lads miss a few games by being in the wrong place at the wrong time when we finally decided to get serious, then that's tough, but a reasonable price to pay if it gets the message out. How can they complain if the receive the penalty laid down in the rules?
You're right about previous cack-handed attempts to get tough that ended up with a few referees being hung out to dry and no effect on the problem. If we're to hand out tough sentences this time, it will only make sense if the tough line is followed consistently from here on. It might take a few Diarmuid O'Sullivans to miss a few Munster Finals, but it wouldn't take too long to work if players knew the (consistent) consequences of this carry-on. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the GAA who has reached breaking point with the nonsense that sees the same penalty (a yellow card being fluttered) for incidents ranging from no incident at all, through genuine attempts to play the ball that result in accidental collisions, to Saturday-night-outside-the-takeaway behaviour.
Further to that Hardy, is it fair that two sets of players should behave in a very similar manner, on the same day, yet receive vastly different punishments simply because a referee happened to be on the pitch at the time in one of the incidents?
Obviously I hate to see any Offaly lad getting suspended, but the scenes in Tullamore were not far removed from those in Thurles. But because the ref gave 2 yellow cards in Tullamore, the players of Offaly and Laois are immune.
I think that's unfair, and much as I hate appeals and further appeals, I think that's against the spirit of the law as well. Cork and Clare are in danger of being victimised because they were on the telly live on a Sunday afternoon.
That's not right either.
(By the way, I am in full agreement that the sentences should be meaningful, but in both cases).
I agree it's unfair, AZ, just like it's unfair to book a player who has been fouled by having his arm held and dragged down on top of another player. But if we wait for perfection in the rules, we'll never solve the problem and I would be against chickening out of using the full extent of the rules against the Thurles lads because it would be unfair. Every Sunday, players receive a bizarre range of penalties from referees, with violent offences overlooked and trivial ones severely punished. If the rules are unfair (and they will never be perfectly fair) then we should change the rules, rather than do nothing or apply only the minimum sentence in each case. If the Thurles lads are suspended, at least it will have been in accordance with the rules and they will have less to complain about, having been involved in a brawl, that many lads who have been suspended for nothing.
The Laois/Offaly players were not dealt with properly, as striking with the hurley is supposed to be a red card offence, but unfortunately, at present there's no provision for the referee's refusal to apply the rules to be overruled subsequently. So they're not great rules, but let's change the rules and introduce the third-man-in rule to deal with mass brawling and allow for refereeing penalties to be increased by a commission of some sort where appropriate. And, in a sport where the participants are carrying potentially lethal objects, there should be no room for interpretation when it comes to using the hurley, butt, boss or shaft. The slightest intentional touch with the hurl must carry the most severe of penalties, no exceptions.
I agree Hardy, but I think this idea that the referee's report is final, even if he has patently done the wrong thing, is crazy. If I headbutt a lad, and the referee sees me and books me, rather than sending me off, then that is a disgrace. It would then be compounded if another lad headbutted someone, wasn't seen by the ref but was caught on camera, and git a suspension for 3 months.
You could certainly see how the second lad would have a case for claiming unfair treatment.
in fairness hardy if the ref sent off 8 players before the ball was thrown in -he'd be declared an idiot. but he'd have been correct to do so in the laois/offaly game and the cork v clare game. the refs can't win and the laughable thing about it is that the laois/offaly players are immune because the ref gave too 2 yellow cards(thanks fergal logan and the DRA).
i'm more of a hurling man than football- but i think striking with the hurl is far too acceptable these days. the pathetic attempts of donal o grady saying -well they didn't get hit in the head - he should be fecked off the sunday game panel for that. i'm glad they were suspended nd it was highlighted-because then maybe the likes of joe canning might get justice when somebody stamps on their head in a match.
Lads, having a go at Fergal Logan is not the point here at all – he's a legal man, that's what he does, and that's what he'll do when asked, i.e., interpret the rules and regulations that other bodies have put together. It's not his fault that the GAA law is an ass at times, and perhaps he's ultimately doing the organisation a favour by showing up the inherent flaws, contradictions, and deficiencies.
And no, he's nothing to me, and the same would be true of any professional who's been hired here – they're just doing their job, and to focus on him or his like is a distraction.
Just a bit of handbagging, I was at some real brawling on Saturday, Cage Rage at the Point, what a night's scrapping, the real deal ;)
QuoteThe Cork and Clare county boards are set to strongly defend their players who are believed to face one-month suspensions following the pre-match fracas ahead of last Sunday's Munster Championship hurling clash.
While the GAA did not officially name the players, the four from Cork are believed to be goalkeeper Donal Óg Cusack and defenders John Gardiner, Seán Óg Ó hAilpín and Diarmuid O'Sullivan with Clare's Colin Lynch, Alan Markham, Andrew Quinn and Barry Nugent also facing bans.
They all have three days to either accept the suspensions or seek a hearing which could result in the bans being reduced, increased or left the same.
After that there could be a further appeal to the Disputes Resolution Authority, which is the last step before you get into legal action and is aimed at keeping these matters out of court.
Neither county board is offering further comment at this stage.
Look - it was only an auld bit of handbags - nobody injured - and everybody was entertained and really that's why we go to matches - to be entertained - how many were at Limerick to see Cork and Tipperary ?? nobody - get the picture ?
Folks
50 minutes into the Dublin v Meath game on Sunday there was a schemozzle. Lads dunting and pushing and shoving and knocking each other.
I take it these guys should be banned aswell. Let's get the message out, it's not acceptable. There was kids watching on tv and the crowd.
Deafening silence on this one
I'd ban the whole lot of them turk, 1 to 15 on each team. Then if Offaly (big IF) get over Carlow, we'd have a handy trot into the Leinster final :D
Turk - they're all too busy moaning about Graham Geraghty.
Anyway, I took a good look at that last night. Stop-reverse-slow-etc.- and do you know what? Not one blow was struck. In fact, not one fist or boot was thrown. The nearest to it was a early on in the rumpus when Moyles twice tried to punch the ball out of Whelan's (?) grasp by slapping down with his fist. The rest was lads rushing in to push him away from Whelan, others pulling them off him, a couple of two-handed pushes in the chest, lads falling in a heap as a result and so on. Not one blow or attempted blow. It was ugly and all and no advertisement for the kids (seriously), but no hitting.
The new offence of "contributing to a melee" would describe the actions of all involved. I don't know what the penalty for that is, but whatever it is that's what they should get. But wait –Pat Spillane didn't mention it, so that's the end of it, according to the new rules.
Darragh Maloney called it "a full scale brawl". Amazing.
If there's no hitting or slapping or jostling, then you wouldn't be happy either - you just can't please the people !
Quote from: turk on June 05, 2007, 01:54:00 PM
Folks
50 minutes into the Dublin v Meath game on Sunday there was a schemozzle. Lads dunting and pushing and shoving and knocking each other.
I take it these guys should be banned aswell. Let's get the message out, it's not acceptable. There was kids watching on tv and the crowd.
Deafening silence on this one
fair play turk, I agree whole heartedly. Ban the lot of them I say. Ban their families and friends too, for the hell of it!!
Following a meeting of the Central Hearing's Committee in Croke Park on Monday night (11th June), it was decided that suspensions in respect of Clare players Barry Nugent, Alan Markham, Andrew Quinn and Colin Lynch, and Cork's Sean Og O hAilpin, Diarmuid O Sullivan and Donal Og Cusack be imposed.
The four week suspensions, arising out of incidents on the occasion of the Guinness Munster Hurling Championship quarter final game between Clare and Cork, will include the next game in the competition (even if that game falls outside the suspension time period) and are the minimum provided for in Rule for the relevant infractions.
In the case of John Gardiner (Cork) no suspension was imposed
The following fines were also confirmed:
Cork and Clare County Boards - Eu5,000 each (for conduct of players)
Cork County Board - Eu2,500 (for failure to comply with instructions issued by Comhairle na Mumhan)
What odds now of a Waterford victory against Cork?
Cian O'Connor played full back in the league at certain stages. I'm not sure how effective he would be against Dan Shanahan or Seamus Prendergast if there was good quality ball raining down on the square. He'd hardly be as strong as O'Sullivan(?)
Cork have some excellent goalies on the subs bench but they could still miss the shop steward's leadership qualities.
Sean òg mightn't be having his best year ever but he'd still be one of the first names on the teamsheet. When Gardiner was being cleaned out in 2004 (?) by Dan Shanahan, Sean òg did an effective spoiling job on him. Will his replacement be up to the same standard?
Are Cork going to take the appeals process to the next level?
Dan Shanahan will be dancing jigs today I reckon. Sean óg gives him conniptions because he is too strong to shift out from under a high ball and Dan can't make his height tell.
Quote from: timmykelleher on June 12, 2007, 01:16:02 PM
What odds now of a Waterford victory against Cork?
Cian O'Connor played full back in the league at certain stages. I'm not sure how effective he would be against Dan Shanahan or Seamus Prendergast if there was good quality ball raining down on the square. He'd hardly be as strong as O'Sullivan(?)
Cork have some excellent goalies on the subs bench but they could still miss the shop steward's leadership qualities.
Sean òg mightn't be having his best year ever but he'd still be one of the first names on the teamsheet. When Gardiner was being cleaned out in 2004 (?) by Dan Shanahan, Sean òg did an effective spoiling job on him. Will his replacement be up to the same standard?
Are Cork going to take the appeals process to the next level?
COC couldn't handle Eoin Brislane phyisicality in the Munster club final. He'd have no chance v Dan. I'd put Gardiner fullback, Tom Kenny wingback and Hero midfield. DOS is simply irreplacable.
The disciplianary double standards are absolutely sickening. They were numberous examples of striking with the hurley last week and only one person was sent off. The CCC were perfectly entitled to take the Gerathy matter further but they choose not too.
I guess the one difference was that all the other violence was with the referee on the field.
I can only presume there were so many suspensions in this case because of the fact it was before the match.
Like yourself, when looking at the strokes that Reale and Geraghty committed and realising that they will both be eligible for their next games, it's hard to stomach.
haven't been on in ages so i just want to ask everyone here who is giving out about the GAA and its rules is it not about time a player takes responsibility on his actions.
after the thing Irealnd's spokesman on perfection sean og was saying maybe the GAA should look at the way they come on the field and how they are too psyched up. up above was a picture of him on top of a clare man scuffling. maybe sean og could have got a pint of cop on and concentrated on the game.
now im not saying the GAA are great and the way things are dealt with have to be looked at but they are not to be blamed for every incident involoving fully grown rational men who let their teams down.
any talk of changing the run out to the field should be shot down as well as it is a key feature of our games.
just a rant, and once again im not defending the disciplinary system of the GAA which is farcical at times but just dont blame them for a few lads deciding to beat each other a bit or because a few men in a tunnel got their wires crossed and let thirty men charging down a small tunnel.
The gaa disciplinary system is a shambles right from the very top administrators to the bottom of the rung official who sits on the county CCC's. It's a complete joke - what's going to happen the Offaly full back who nearly took Martin Comerfords head and shoulders off with a wild pull during Sunday's match ?
Time the system was completely changed - root and branch chage needed where players/ committees can't always appeal and get off.
I'd have to differentiate between Paul Cleary (Offaly's full back) on Sunday and either the Reale/Kelly or Cork/CLare incidents. Cleary can at least claim it was a wild pull, towards the ball, and it's very hard to say it wasn't just reckless rather than intentional. Probably deserved a red card for recklessness, but very hard to prove malicious intent.
the Cork Clare 'brawl' and the Damien Reale and Eoin Kelly incidents were definitely off the ball, and simply intended to strike. (And I mean the yellow card incident there, not the second yellow for the chop)
Whatever about the punishments handed down, to compare Cleary to them is not really a valid comparison in my mind.
I accept what you're saying ok - but the point I'm trying to make is that people who deserve to gwt swnt off eg. offaly full back, graham geraghty etc. etc. a lot of the time DON'T GET sent off and those who do get sent off, at times don't deserve to get sent off - I remember about 4 years ago the full back for Donegal ( when playing Armagh ) committed three simple fouls and was sent off after about 15 / 20 minutes - near the end of that game, Tony Mc Entee busted a Donegal player with an elbow on the ball, Armagh got a free and Donegal were well beat.
i don't know the Offaly full back and I respect hard tough play, but the point is, he should have been sent off.
I'd say Cork won't appeal. Better to take the bans now and have these key men available for Quarter and semi finals. Waterford would be well worth a punt on Sunday.
It suggested on the news that Clare were considering withdrawing from the hurling championship. Even to say this is losing the plot completely. There is no doubt what happened, rules were broken, the punishment wasn't excessive.
A lot of comments on this thread mention a variety of other incidents. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you are driving along the road at the speed limit and some guy whizzes by you that doesn't remove from you the obligation to slow down at the next village.
The GAA should stand up to Clare here and warn them if they do pull out there will be severe punishment for pulling such a move mid-Championship. It's a disgrace if they do pull out. Sure the suspensions don't hurt Clare half as much as Cork. The players will only miss one match and that's against Laois I think.
Agree if Clare pull then there should be severe cpnsequences . This is very serious and I hope that their county board keep a calm head
Punish Clare? What can they do to them if they are not in the competition? I dont think Clare will go this far and Mcdonagh is just blowing off steam. But who knows maybe Cork will join them.
There is allways next years championship / I hope they keep calm none of the persecution nonsense of 98
What happened to Tipp footballers when they pulled out of the football championship a couple of year ago? Fermanagh got a bye (and nearly lost it!).
I agree with those saying that video evidence should not just be reserved for incidents that the ref failed to properly see or deal with. Some clearer guidines need to be developed for next years championships to prevent counties going down the legal route to get their man off.
Ways of punishment could include suspending them from next years championship, threaten the county board that they wont allow the winner from their club championship to take part in the All-Ireland club championship. I'd say they would change their mind pretty quickly then.
Tony Considine was on Radio 1 this morniing, saying there was no way he or his team were withdrawing from anything and suggesting that the chairman would be better minding his own business and doing something useful for the team, such as re-scheduling the club championship.
So it seems all the disagreements and animosities in Clare have been sorted out!
I heard Considine on the wireless. The first he heard of McDonagh's suggestion that we withdraw from the championship was when one of the support staff got a text message during training. He clearly wasn't happy. There are major splits all over the place. He has no time for McDonagh and slagged him off big time.
I hear rumours that Considine has walked, anyone know if theres any truth to this?
Haven't heard if he has walked, but he was going to walk anyway, over club championship fixtures. A full round were fixed for the week before the first qualifier games, he wasn't happy about this and was threathening to go if it wasn't resolved to his satisfaction. After the CB statement last night I'd go if I was him, infact if I was a player I'd leave aswell. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the Davy Fitz situation, from what I can see the Clare CB have behaved atrociously and don't deserve the commitment of any of the players.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 12, 2007, 09:35:02 PM
It suggested on the news that Clare were considering withdrawing from the hurling championship. Even to say this is losing the plot completely. There is no doubt what happened, rules were broken, the punishment wasn't excessive.
A lot of comments on this thread mention a variety of other incidents. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you are driving along the road at the speed limit and some guy whizzes by you that doesn't remove from you the obligation to slow down at the next village.
What a load of shite,of course the suspensions were excessive,the gaa clamping down on the so called bad boys of hurling again.From what I saw there was'nt one red card offense from either county displayed in the melee.Purely before game shenanigans that should have been overlooked.
Clare seem to be in dissaray with all the fighting between the county board and the manager. All in all it appears that the manager is being badly let down by his county chairman. Club championship less than a week before a county championship match!!! Can,t see that happening in Cork or Kilkenny. As for the pulling out, load of old guff they won,t do it because they know they would be hammered especially if Cork take the suspensions and play on Sunday. Cork are in a no loose situation. If Waterford beat them they have a ready made excuse and a comfortable passage through the backdoor to the all ireland Q/Final with all the players back. If they beat waterford minus the big three who will stand against them. Also being a victim pulls a team together, although they were already a very united team, four finals in a row tells you that.
What ever about the rights or wrongs of the dust up the clare CB suggesting that they might withdraw from the championship is completely OTT, in fact it's embarrassing to think there are people in the GAA so idiotic. As far as the suspensions go, well you simply can't 'overlook' that type of carry on, maybe the suspensions are excessive but somebody had to pay the price. By the way I was at the game sitting directly behind where the players came out and there were definately one or two sending off offences.