Would you be in favour of a second tier?

Started by sligoman2, June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

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Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
136 (52.7%)
No
104 (40.3%)
Undecided
18 (7%)

Total Members Voted: 258

LeoMc

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I'd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There's no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

priceyreilly

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?

JoG2

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?

Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have

priceyreilly

Quote from: JoG2 on October 22, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have

Your solution is to boot counties into the losers league and magically those left will make the top tier competitive? Absolute nonsense.

Here's a snippet of the plan that will save Gaelic Games:

1. Split Dublin into 4
2. Employ Strategic Development officers for all counties
3. Draw up development plans needed to improve Gaelic football and hurling in all counties
4. Employ full time coaches and other development officers to implement the plan for each county
5. Finance each county with the resources needed to implement these plans

LeoMc

#334
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
No need to be embarrassed, you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
The Inter County one, which has been done away with on Ulster was for players from non-senior clubs to get a chance to play at a higher level. It is not the best team from that County competing at a suitable level.
At club level teams are graded to give them a chance to play teams at a similar level. I would say there were not too many teams which lifted Intermediate or Junior championship s yesterday who thought they were competing in a losers league. They worked hard and saw it as a reward for their hard work and a chance to step up and test themselves at the next level.

You got to walk before you can run. If a County can't walk they should be leaving to do that first.

I wouldn't expect Tyrone to compete for the Liam McCarthy nor Tattyreagh to compete for the Andy Merrigan.

priceyreilly

Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.


LeoMc

#336
Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being "ironic" when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

priceyreilly

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being "ironic" when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

LeoMc

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 11:17:54 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being "ironic" when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

priceyreilly

Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.

Rossfan

And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

themac_23

if keeping the Provincial championships is so important, do away with the likes of McKenna cup, start the leagues earlier and then have the Provincial championships as a stand alone competition. Run it off over a few weeks, ie no more of the no overlapping games, no reason why for example, in ulster the 4 quarter finals cant be played over one weekend, week break then semis week break then final. all run off in a few condensed weeks then the Stand alone All Irelands can start.

Rossfan

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

LeoMc

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.

lenny

Quote from: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.

Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people weren't even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.