Preferred system for All Ireland Football championship

[muppet]

3)

Two leagues Connacht/Ulster & Leinster/Munster

Top 2 Ulster teams play Ulster Final
Top 2 Connacht teams play Connacht Final
Top 2 Leinster teams play Leinster Final
Top 2 Munster teams play Munster Final

Then 2 semi finals and the All-Ireland Final.

Advantages:

Each team guaranteed a minimum number of Championship games each year;
Provincial rivalries maintained to a large extent;
Traditional provincial finals retained;
Traditional knock-out system to find a winner;
Games could be run over a fixed period where each county would know the weekends required and thus could schedule club fixtures with better planning;
This would please sponsors, TV companies & the money men;

Disadvantages;

A team could finish a season not making the knock-out stages but still ahead of a team that makes say a Connacht Final;
Relegation & Promotion to a 2nd tier would be necessary;
This would please the sponsors, TV companies and the money men

There'd be little enough variety and certain problems of the current structure would be considerably worsened. In particular Galway/Mayo and Kerry/Cork would cruise through the league stage and meet for the provincial title and semi-final spot just about every year with the remaining counties of those provinces never getting a look in.

I'm not so sure. The likes of Sligo/Ros could be highly motivated against the Ulster teams (look at Wicklow this year) which would mean Galway/Mayo would have to match any good results they get. I wouldn't enjoy watching Mayo having to get a result against say away to Derry or Donegal away to make a Connacht Final.

[Jimmy]

Right, this might be a little extreme, but I'm going to put it out there. I've been thinking about this for a while and it's sort of a combination of the NFL and the Guinness premiership/rugby league. Take the best 12/14 teams in a one way league. The top 6 qualify for the all-Ireland series and the top 2 straight into semi-finals (ala NFL play-offs). Also you would have bottom 2 being relegated to the second tier and top 2 from second tier being promoted.

Keep the provincial championships, playing them February to March. The league system would start in April and run to July. Play-offs in August and September.

Advantages include a structured season with maybe a minimum 14 games, 6 strongest teams will be in the all-Ireland series, 5-6 home championship games which could be split over a Saturday/Sunday, levels the playing field, taking away the excuse that Kerry get it easy (which I don't agree with). Threat of relegation from the championship means that most games should have something at stake right up to the end. Also it would hopefully allow so called weaker counties to develop faster.

Effectively it can be summed up in a condensing of the league from 4 divisions to 2, re-structuring of how the league is won and giving the Sam Maguire to the winners and swapping places with the provincial championships.

Probably to radical to ever get passed, but I'm putting it out there.

[Rossfan]

. Take the best 12/14 teams in a one way league. The top 6 qualify for the all-Ireland series and the top 2 straight into semi-finals (ala NFL play-offs).


So how do you decide on the best 12 - 14 teams.
What would the other 19 - 21 teams be doing?

[Sionnach]

3)

Two leagues Connacht/Ulster & Leinster/Munster

Top 2 Ulster teams play Ulster Final
Top 2 Connacht teams play Connacht Final
Top 2 Leinster teams play Leinster Final
Top 2 Munster teams play Munster Final

Then 2 semi finals and the All-Ireland Final.

Advantages:

Each team guaranteed a minimum number of Championship games each year;
Provincial rivalries maintained to a large extent;
Traditional provincial finals retained;
Traditional knock-out system to find a winner;
Games could be run over a fixed period where each county would know the weekends required and thus could schedule club fixtures with better planning;
This would please sponsors, TV companies & the money men;

Disadvantages;

A team could finish a season not making the knock-out stages but still ahead of a team that makes say a Connacht Final;
Relegation & Promotion to a 2nd tier would be necessary;
This would please the sponsors, TV companies and the money men

There'd be little enough variety and certain problems of the current structure would be considerably worsened. In particular Galway/Mayo and Kerry/Cork would cruise through the league stage and meet for the provincial title and semi-final spot just about every year with the remaining counties of those provinces never getting a look in.

I'm not so sure. The likes of Sligo/Ros could be highly motivated against the Ulster teams (look at Wicklow this year) which would mean Galway/Mayo would have to match any good results they get. I wouldn't enjoy watching Mayo having to get a result against say away to Derry or Donegal away to make a Connacht Final.

Sorry, but the Sligos iof football get to their occasional Connacht finals by getting an easy draw or else by pulling off one or two surprise wins. Do you seriously believe there wouldn't be a reduction in the frequency of their reaching the Connacht final if they can only do so by outperforming Galway or Mayo over the course of around ten games (or however many they would play)?. No easy draws and a couple of surprise wins is unlikely to be be enough. This is why Sligo may occasionally finish in the top two Connach teams in the provincial championship but are unlikely to finish ahead of either Galway or Mayo in the NFL.  League formats are always more likely to end up with the best teams at the top than knock-out and the power imbalance with the big two going for the two final places in this case would make that a problem.

[Jimmy]

. Take the best 12/14 teams in a one way league. The top 6 qualify for the all-Ireland series and the top 2 straight into semi-finals (ala NFL play-offs).


So how do you decide on the best 12 - 14 teams.
What would the other 19 - 21 teams be doing?

Two tiers. Sam Maguire (division 1) and Tommy Murphy (division 2) allowing for the promotion and relegation part on the method.

[timmyot501]

Wot about mickey hartes suggestion of playing it as it is only the 4 provincial winners play each other in the old semi-final system, leaving 2. Then the 2 losers of these games play only 2 remaining backdoor teams (ie an extra round in backdoor system). Creates more of an incentive to win provincial title and makes the backdoor route tougher as only 2 can make the semis?

[muppet]

3)

Two leagues Connacht/Ulster & Leinster/Munster

Top 2 Ulster teams play Ulster Final
Top 2 Connacht teams play Connacht Final
Top 2 Leinster teams play Leinster Final
Top 2 Munster teams play Munster Final

Then 2 semi finals and the All-Ireland Final.

Advantages:

Each team guaranteed a minimum number of Championship games each year;
Provincial rivalries maintained to a large extent;
Traditional provincial finals retained;
Traditional knock-out system to find a winner;
Games could be run over a fixed period where each county would know the weekends required and thus could schedule club fixtures with better planning;
This would please sponsors, TV companies & the money men;

Disadvantages;

A team could finish a season not making the knock-out stages but still ahead of a team that makes say a Connacht Final;
Relegation & Promotion to a 2nd tier would be necessary;
This would please the sponsors, TV companies and the money men

There'd be little enough variety and certain problems of the current structure would be considerably worsened. In particular Galway/Mayo and Kerry/Cork would cruise through the league stage and meet for the provincial title and semi-final spot just about every year with the remaining counties of those provinces never getting a look in.

I'm not so sure. The likes of Sligo/Ros could be highly motivated against the Ulster teams (look at Wicklow this year) which would mean Galway/Mayo would have to match any good results they get. I wouldn't enjoy watching Mayo having to get a result against say away to Derry or Donegal away to make a Connacht Final.

Sorry, but the Sligos iof football get to their occasional Connacht finals by getting an easy draw or else by pulling off one or two surprise wins. Do you seriously believe there wouldn't be a reduction in the frequency of their reaching the Connacht final if they can only do so by outperforming Galway or Mayo over the course of around ten games (or however many they would play)?. No easy draws and a couple of surprise wins is unlikely to be be enough. This is why Sligo may occasionally finish in the top two Connach teams in the provincial championship but are unlikely to finish ahead of either Galway or Mayo in the NFL.  League formats are always more likely to end up with the best teams at the top than knock-out and the power imbalance with the big two going for the two final places in this case would make that a problem.

This is the problem.

People think you can create a system which makes it harder for the strong teams to come through. You can't. The strong teams will in all probability, almost always come through.

If you accept that you can move on and create a new fair system for all, otherwise you start off looking for a system that handicaps strong teams, which will never happen.

[INDIANA]

If we're moving to a league system I'd prefer to see one along the lines suggested by muppet. rather than an 8 *4 system which would be a complete farce in my opinion.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

I've said it before on here but I can never understand why we are so wedded to the principle that all 32 counties must be the same competition when so many have no hope of ever challenging in the next generation. In the club scene, which is the bedrock of the association, we happily accept that not every team can compete at the same level and so we have 3 grades, senior, intermediate and junior.

I see no reason why the same shouldn't happen at county level and believe it would provide for much more competitive and enjoyable championships. The other inequity that's needs addressing is that fact that for practically every county, the vast majority of their matches each year are in secondary competitions.

What I would do would be start the provincials championship in February and finish them on by St Patrick's Day or thereabouts. April and the first half of May would be months for club football with every county expected to have at least 1, if not 2, rounds of their championship played by the end of May.

Intercounty teams would be divided into 3 grades - 12 senior, 10 intermediate, 10 / 11 junior. Divide each grade into 2 divisions with each team playing each other once - that's at total of 4 or 5 matches which should be played at fortnightly intervals during May June and early July. 

The top team in each group should make in through to the All Ireland semi final in their grade while 2nd in group A should play 3rd in group B (and vice versa) at the end of July in a quarter final. This leaves 4 teams left - play off semi finals and finals in August. The club scene should then take precedence in September with the All Ireland club championship taking place inside one calender year.

The All Ireland champions in junior and intermediate would be promoted. The bottom sides in each group would play against each other, the loser being relegated and the winner playing the beaten All Ireland finalists from the grade below for a place in that grade. This would mean that in groups of 5 or 6, 3rd would give you a chance of winning the championship while bottom leaves you in peril of relegation. This should keep most matches competitives and reduce the number of "dead rubbers" which are the scourge of the Champions League.

Just an idea but I think it might work.

[AFS]

I've said it before on here but I can never understand why we are so wedded to the principle that all 32 counties must be the same competition when so many have no hope of ever challenging in the next generation. In the club scene, which is the most bedrock of the association, we happily accept that not every team can compete at the same level and so we have 3 grades, senior, intermediate and junior.

I see no reason why the same shouldn't happen at county level and believe it would provide for much more competitive and enjoyable championships.

I completely agree with this, and not only does it happen at club level, it also happens in pretty much every other intercounty gaelic games competition (Hurling, Camogie, Ladies Football). Why should Football be any different? I also think that if a three tiered system was put into place any initial opposition would eventually fade away as people realise that, for the first time, the majority of counties in the country have a decent shot at actually winning a championship, something that is merely a pipe dream for 85% of the country in any given year.

[Throw ball]

I've said it before on here but I can never understand why we are so wedded to the principle that all 32 counties must be the same competition when so many have no hope of ever challenging in the next generation. In the club scene, which is the most bedrock of the association, we happily accept that not every team can compete at the same level and so we have 3 grades, senior, intermediate and junior.

I see no reason why the same shouldn't happen at county level and believe it would provide for much more competitive and enjoyable championships.

I completely agree with this, and not only does it happen at club level, it also happens in pretty much every other intercounty gaelic games competition (Hurling, Camogie, Ladies Football). Why should Football be any different? I also think that if a three tiered system was put into place any initial opposition would eventually fade away as people realise that, for the first time, the majority of counties in the country have a decent shot at actually winning a championship, something that is merely a pipe dream for 85% of the country in any given year.

Agree that in principal this is agood idea but sadly think too many have other ideas. Just look at Tommy Murphy Cup.

[INDIANA]

BUt look at the TM.  It was  a shambles. plus the crowds have no interest in the 2nd tier competitions.

[AFS]

BUt look at the TM.  It was  a shambles. plus the crowds have no interest in the 2nd tier competitions.

Maybe if it was given more than a year or two it could've been a success. It wasn't even allowed to survive the moaning phase that greets every change within the GAA.

The TM's image as a backup, which you entered only after defeat in the main competition, didn't help either. If a tiered system was to be introduced, it would be important to emphasize the preeminence of each championship. They may be greeted with the same ridicule and disinterest as the TM initially, but eventually their prestige would grow.

A three tiered system is tried and trusted across the GAA, I can't see why it shouldn't be an option for our main competition.

[Zulu]

The funny thing is some weaker county panels actually view the league as their main competition, they just don't openly say it. They know this is where their best chance of some tangible success lies but tradition dictates that the crowds and media view the championship as the be all and end all. If you think about it we are living in a fantasy land where different counties are all competing in the same competitions but with vastly different emphasises. As AFS says, we should have different championships, two would be enough IMO, and I'd link them to the league to ensure that the majority of IC games are important.

The sad thing here is that there is a cracking football championship buried under a pile of shit talk about tradition. We allow soccer and rugby to hog the limelight for most of the year while we complain about the league and the first 10 weeks of the championship, the football really only gets going at QF stage and teh hurling barely gets off the ground for the semi final stage, yet there are enough top teams in both codes to have really good championships that are varied and competitive from the off.

[Sionnach]

3)

Two leagues Connacht/Ulster & Leinster/Munster

Top 2 Ulster teams play Ulster Final
Top 2 Connacht teams play Connacht Final
Top 2 Leinster teams play Leinster Final
Top 2 Munster teams play Munster Final

Then 2 semi finals and the All-Ireland Final.

Advantages:

Each team guaranteed a minimum number of Championship games each year;
Provincial rivalries maintained to a large extent;
Traditional provincial finals retained;
Traditional knock-out system to find a winner;
Games could be run over a fixed period where each county would know the weekends required and thus could schedule club fixtures with better planning;
This would please sponsors, TV companies & the money men;

Disadvantages;

A team could finish a season not making the knock-out stages but still ahead of a team that makes say a Connacht Final;
Relegation & Promotion to a 2nd tier would be necessary;
This would please the sponsors, TV companies and the money men

There'd be little enough variety and certain problems of the current structure would be considerably worsened. In particular Galway/Mayo and Kerry/Cork would cruise through the league stage and meet for the provincial title and semi-final spot just about every year with the remaining counties of those provinces never getting a look in.

I'm not so sure. The likes of Sligo/Ros could be highly motivated against the Ulster teams (look at Wicklow this year) which would mean Galway/Mayo would have to match any good results they get. I wouldn't enjoy watching Mayo having to get a result against say away to Derry or Donegal away to make a Connacht Final.

Sorry, but the Sligos iof football get to their occasional Connacht finals by getting an easy draw or else by pulling off one or two surprise wins. Do you seriously believe there wouldn't be a reduction in the frequency of their reaching the Connacht final if they can only do so by outperforming Galway or Mayo over the course of around ten games (or however many they would play)?. No easy draws and a couple of surprise wins is unlikely to be be enough. This is why Sligo may occasionally finish in the top two Connach teams in the provincial championship but are unlikely to finish ahead of either Galway or Mayo in the NFL.  League formats are always more likely to end up with the best teams at the top than knock-out and the power imbalance with the big two going for the two final places in this case would make that a problem.

This is the problem.

People think you can create a system which makes it harder for the strong teams to come through. You can't. The strong teams will in all probability, almost always come through.

If you accept that you can move on and create a new fair system for all, otherwise you start off looking for a system that handicaps strong teams, which will never happen.

Yes, this is exactly my point. Playing a league with the top two Connacht teams and top too Munster teams into the respective finals won't work because it is "too fair" and yet at the same time also not fair enough overall. The sides outside the big two are not good enough to challenge them over the course of a league most of the time, and it would be boring - wth knock-out the weaker sides can get an easy draw or a couple of surprises.

Your system suffers from trying to accommodate the unbalanced provincial championships, which is just making life difficult for yourself if you want to create a league which is "a new fair system for all" in your words. I don't object to incorporating a round-robin element to the championship, but trying to do that within the provincial championship framework makes it very hard to create a competitive and interesting structure.