Man Utd Thread:

Started by full back, November 10, 2006, 08:13:49 AM

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johnnycool

Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 01:55:28 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2020, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 01:25:31 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2020, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on January 24, 2020, 09:49:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2020, 09:28:09 AM
Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 08:09:04 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 23, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 23, 2020, 04:06:18 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 23, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 23, 2020, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 23, 2020, 03:33:09 PM
Utd have spent plenty of money. Financial backing to me hasn't been a problem.
They've made a few big mistakes in the hiring process. Signing Sanchez. Hiring OGS. Letting Lukaku go without a replacement. Hiring Mourinho and not backing him (some will say he cooked his goose signing Sanchez. I do not believe this was his doing based solely on my opinion).
A few important positions have a huge effect on a club. Look at Klopp. People talk about all the players he brought in but the real transformation started since the GK and CH. Before that the GK situation and defense was a real nightmare for the club and undoing some of their brilliant attacking play.
There are no mug teams in the PL. If you pass up too many scoring chances you will get beat, even by the lesser teams. Conceding is a fact of life but is only compounded at the other end. CF is a massive position, a leading position. In terms of hold up play, taking pressure off defense, roughing up and getting roughed up by the opposition big men, bringing others into play and dealing with the pressure and physical demands of being expected to score every week. It takes a brute of a man to do this at a top club. Utd let their brute go and went with unproven kids. Blame Woodward, the owner, the bean counters blah blah blah but OGS is in charge of footballing matters and let this happen. It was his job to kick up a stink and impress on non footballing executive men last summer that this is a non runner for a big club.
So I don't know how people can say a world class manager wouldn't do things different or make a difference. To me it looks simpler and all the bed wetting I hear in the media of clear-outs, spending another billion etc is a bit OTT. There's over half a billion of footballing talent there already. Get a top class manager in, get a bloody centre forward, get a formation that kinda works and then see what signings are needed and who is surplus.

Man City or Liverpool dont have a player like this and seem to be doing ok?
Yes they do. They might not be big burly brutes but they are freaks. You cannot hold up and turn PL defenders without exceptional physical attributes and you cannot last a season without exceptional physical conditioning.

Ok so the top two teams in the PL dont have big brutes so to be one of the top teams you dont have to go down that route.

Exceptional physical condition should be a given at that level
I didn't say big brutes. A brute can be small. Conditioning does not equal fitness. Conditioning is obtained over years. Playing CF is the toughest role in a team and to lead the line for a top club takes exceptional physical and mental endurance. Utd threw out theirs and went with a kid. A proper manager would not start a season like has happened at Utd.

So who is the brute that plays up front in the Man City or Liverpool team?
Aguero, sterling,Mane and Salah are all strong as bulls. Their hold play is exceptional. A lot better than the vast majority of big men that has played up top in the premier league. I think
thats Look it Ups point.
Rashford is probably stronger than all of those listed and Martial is at probably as strong as Sterling, Mane or Salah too.
Rashford is a kid with a double fracture in his back. People on here seem very confused with the difference between fitness, strength and conditioning.
And comparing Martial's hold up play to those other players??? He is not interested like those guys.

Have to pull you up on this.

You said Utd let their brute go - that someone who will rough up the opposition and are brutes (among other things) is needed.

The top two teams dont have anything of the sort.

To put Sterling, Salah, Mane even close to this bracket is laughable at best.

City & Liverpool are hard working ball playing teams with no brutes
CF is a brutal position. You are leading the line generally against the biggest hardest c**ts on the opposition team. It is extremely physical and rough. If you cannot handle the rough stuff you will not survive. And it takes a long time to condition yourself to last a full season and not break down.
Only thing laughable is to compare anything Utd have in this position to the top teams. Why do you think Martial sulks so much. Or do you think opposition teams go easy on the top CFs. No they don't but those guys don't sulk or give the opposition the satisfaction of getting inside their heads. They have the stomach for the physiological battle and get inside defenders' heads instead.

No idea why Martial is sulking however I do know it doesnt take a brute of a CF to be successful as the best two teams in the PL have shown

I'd suggest that it really depends on the quality of the ball into the forwards that differentiates the top teams from the lesser teams including Utd.

Liverpool are very much a space orientated team. They look to create space in forward positions and then hit that space with accuracy for the likes of Salah and Mane to get on to. There's very few 50/50 balls lobbed up for the big centre backs to give the forwards a good physical battering. City are the same.

United don't know what they are. They want to counter attack at pace but the likes of Burnley aren't going to come to OT and press forward at every opportunity. A bit more guile, creativity and ability is required.

Maroon Manc

I'm not sure whether Martial is going to be good enough but he'd certainly benefit from having a creative attacking midfielder behind him, for nearly all this season he's had to put up with Pereira who is simply diabolical. He's the least of United's worries currently though, we've far more pressing matters.

Geoff Tipps

Europe's biggest spenders in the last 5 years. Some familiar faces near the top.

https://www.football365.com/news/europes-biggest-net-spends-since-2015-liverpool-29th

Look-Up!

Quote from: johnnycool on January 24, 2020, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 01:55:28 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2020, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 01:25:31 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 24, 2020, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on January 24, 2020, 09:49:09 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 24, 2020, 09:28:09 AM
Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 08:09:04 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 23, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 23, 2020, 04:06:18 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 23, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 23, 2020, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on January 23, 2020, 03:33:09 PM
Utd have spent plenty of money. Financial backing to me hasn't been a problem.
They've made a few big mistakes in the hiring process. Signing Sanchez. Hiring OGS. Letting Lukaku go without a replacement. Hiring Mourinho and not backing him (some will say he cooked his goose signing Sanchez. I do not believe this was his doing based solely on my opinion).
A few important positions have a huge effect on a club. Look at Klopp. People talk about all the players he brought in but the real transformation started since the GK and CH. Before that the GK situation and defense was a real nightmare for the club and undoing some of their brilliant attacking play.
There are no mug teams in the PL. If you pass up too many scoring chances you will get beat, even by the lesser teams. Conceding is a fact of life but is only compounded at the other end. CF is a massive position, a leading position. In terms of hold up play, taking pressure off defense, roughing up and getting roughed up by the opposition big men, bringing others into play and dealing with the pressure and physical demands of being expected to score every week. It takes a brute of a man to do this at a top club. Utd let their brute go and went with unproven kids. Blame Woodward, the owner, the bean counters blah blah blah but OGS is in charge of footballing matters and let this happen. It was his job to kick up a stink and impress on non footballing executive men last summer that this is a non runner for a big club.
So I don't know how people can say a world class manager wouldn't do things different or make a difference. To me it looks simpler and all the bed wetting I hear in the media of clear-outs, spending another billion etc is a bit OTT. There's over half a billion of footballing talent there already. Get a top class manager in, get a bloody centre forward, get a formation that kinda works and then see what signings are needed and who is surplus.

Man City or Liverpool dont have a player like this and seem to be doing ok?
Yes they do. They might not be big burly brutes but they are freaks. You cannot hold up and turn PL defenders without exceptional physical attributes and you cannot last a season without exceptional physical conditioning.

Ok so the top two teams in the PL dont have big brutes so to be one of the top teams you dont have to go down that route.

Exceptional physical condition should be a given at that level
I didn't say big brutes. A brute can be small. Conditioning does not equal fitness. Conditioning is obtained over years. Playing CF is the toughest role in a team and to lead the line for a top club takes exceptional physical and mental endurance. Utd threw out theirs and went with a kid. A proper manager would not start a season like has happened at Utd.

So who is the brute that plays up front in the Man City or Liverpool team?
Aguero, sterling,Mane and Salah are all strong as bulls. Their hold play is exceptional. A lot better than the vast majority of big men that has played up top in the premier league. I think
thats Look it Ups point.
Rashford is probably stronger than all of those listed and Martial is at probably as strong as Sterling, Mane or Salah too.
Rashford is a kid with a double fracture in his back. People on here seem very confused with the difference between fitness, strength and conditioning.
And comparing Martial's hold up play to those other players??? He is not interested like those guys.

Have to pull you up on this.

You said Utd let their brute go - that someone who will rough up the opposition and are brutes (among other things) is needed.

The top two teams dont have anything of the sort.

To put Sterling, Salah, Mane even close to this bracket is laughable at best.

City & Liverpool are hard working ball playing teams with no brutes
CF is a brutal position. You are leading the line generally against the biggest hardest c**ts on the opposition team. It is extremely physical and rough. If you cannot handle the rough stuff you will not survive. And it takes a long time to condition yourself to last a full season and not break down.
Only thing laughable is to compare anything Utd have in this position to the top teams. Why do you think Martial sulks so much. Or do you think opposition teams go easy on the top CFs. No they don't but those guys don't sulk or give the opposition the satisfaction of getting inside their heads. They have the stomach for the physiological battle and get inside defenders' heads instead.

No idea why Martial is sulking however I do know it doesnt take a brute of a CF to be successful as the best two teams in the PL have shown

I'd suggest that it really depends on the quality of the ball into the forwards that differentiates the top teams from the lesser teams including Utd.

Liverpool are very much a space orientated team. They look to create space in forward positions and then hit that space with accuracy for the likes of Salah and Mane to get on to. There's very few 50/50 balls lobbed up for the big centre backs to give the forwards a good physical battering. City are the same.

United don't know what they are. They want to counter attack at pace but the likes of Burnley aren't going to come to OT and press forward at every opportunity. A bit more guile, creativity and ability is required.
Good point and very true. There are many many facets to being a top CF and generally no one gets to lead a charge for a title until going through a massive vetting process and having many seasons of proven performance under the belt.
Good delivery is a must but good delivery to a bad forward doesn't matter much the same as bad delivery to a good forward.
The press is vital too from the front. Those City and Liverpool forwards are animals in this department. I don't see that will in Utd.
And the rough and tumble is all part and parcel of the package too. No defender gives space or time away. It must be fought and wrestled for. That involves giving and taking knocks. It all adds up over a season.
Anyway there's no one size fits all and no way it can be summed up on an opinion forum. They are all different in their own ways but one good barometer is how many goals they can get over a full season.

Taylor

Quote from: Geoff Tipps on January 24, 2020, 02:51:22 PM
Europe's biggest spenders in the last 5 years. Some familiar faces near the top.

https://www.football365.com/news/europes-biggest-net-spends-since-2015-liverpool-29th

Crazy that Wolves, Brighton & Everton are so far up.
Serious trouble coming down the line for them, even moreso if they fall out of PL.

The players Utd have let go for next or nothing along with the wages they are paying is equally crazy.

The Glazers have been splashing the cash but the clubs work in the transfer windows have been abysmal.

magpie seanie


Look-Up!

Quote from: Maroon Manc on January 24, 2020, 02:05:34 PM
I'm not sure whether Martial is going to be good enough but he'd certainly benefit from having a creative attacking midfielder behind him, for nearly all this season he's had to put up with Pereira who is simply diabolical. He's the least of United's worries currently though, we've far more pressing matters.
I just think Martial would command a decent transfer fee for now and if invested wisely a massive upgrade could be achieved.

Boycey

After reading here for the last couple of days I'm convinced some of yis don't even watch football  ;D

magpie seanie

Martial has played well in patches and when he does you look at him and go - yep, he's going to be great. Then he has lots of times where he sulks and moans and puts himself off his own game though as MM points out, he might have good reason a lot of the time. The number of games Pereira and Lingard have played is shocking but the sqaud is so thin is has had to happen.

rodney trotter

Quote from: Cunny Funt on January 24, 2020, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on January 24, 2020, 11:03:06 AM
In fairness Ferdinand was asked about that clip after the PSG game, and said he was caught up in the emotion like a fan. He is a bit excitable at times, but would be worth seeing if he would improve United with transfers etc.. He's the only one from the club that shown a interest in becoming a DOF at United.

The role of a DOF needs to be someone that has pervious experience and he doesn't have to be a former player. I think bringing in the likes of Rio or Fletcher they will become nothing more than another PR puppet while Woodward will remain in strong control over each transfers and player contract.

At the moment Woodward is haggling over the price tag of Bruno Fernandes if he wasn't such a idiot when it comes to football matters clubs wouldn't overvalue their players when he comes calling.

To get champions league football for next season via 4th in the league or winning the EL 2 quality players at least are needed to be signed or loaned in during this transfer window, probably 3 now with the long term Rashford injury and its looking more likely the transfer window will be closed without bringing anyone in. Thats on the board and Woodward if they don't do the required business in the next week, worst of all if they fail they will use Ole as a puppet to tell the media that he's happy with his squad and players coming back from injury will be like new signings.

Why needs? United never had one before, so can't compare to previous. Van Der Sar had no experience before Ajax

It's Joel Glazer who pulled the plug on the Fernandes deal, not Woodword.

J70

Quote from: Taylor on January 24, 2020, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on January 24, 2020, 02:51:22 PM
Europe's biggest spenders in the last 5 years. Some familiar faces near the top.

https://www.football365.com/news/europes-biggest-net-spends-since-2015-liverpool-29th

Crazy that Wolves, Brighton & Everton are so far up.
Serious trouble coming down the line for them, even moreso if they fall out of PL.

The players Utd have let go for next or nothing along with the wages they are paying is equally crazy.

The Glazers have been splashing the cash but the clubs work in the transfer windows have been abysmal.

Can't believe Brighton being up there!

As the writer says though, it will be a big surprise if one of the bigger teams don't make a move for Dunk this year.

Cunny Funt

Quote from: rodney trotter on January 24, 2020, 03:29:24 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on January 24, 2020, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on January 24, 2020, 11:03:06 AM
In fairness Ferdinand was asked about that clip after the PSG game, and said he was caught up in the emotion like a fan. He is a bit excitable at times, but would be worth seeing if he would improve United with transfers etc.. He's the only one from the club that shown a interest in becoming a DOF at United.

The role of a DOF needs to be someone that has pervious experience and he doesn't have to be a former player. I think bringing in the likes of Rio or Fletcher they will become nothing more than another PR puppet while Woodward will remain in strong control over each transfers and player contract.

At the moment Woodward is haggling over the price tag of Bruno Fernandes if he wasn't such a idiot when it comes to football matters clubs wouldn't overvalue their players when he comes calling.

To get champions league football for next season via 4th in the league or winning the EL 2 quality players at least are needed to be signed or loaned in during this transfer window, probably 3 now with the long term Rashford injury and its looking more likely the transfer window will be closed without bringing anyone in. Thats on the board and Woodward if they don't do the required business in the next week, worst of all if they fail they will use Ole as a puppet to tell the media that he's happy with his squad and players coming back from injury will be like new signings.

Why needs? United never had one before, so can't compare to previous. Van Der Sar had no experience before Ajax

It's Joel Glazer who pulled the plug on the Fernandes deal, not Woodword.

Because more than any club in the top 8  United need experience to fill those roles. The whole DOF was mostly paper talk anyway as Woodward and Co weren't going to let someone clued in to do the recruitment. On the Fernandes deal it depends on what newspaper you read and it's a signing that should have been done weeks ago.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: magpie seanie on January 24, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
Quote from: laoislad on January 24, 2020, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 12:11:45 PM
Which trio has scored more goals this season: Salah, Mané and Firmino or Rashford, Martial and Greenwood?
What's the answer now?

Obsessed.

Can you not just enjoy your own sides historically good run and the prospect of a first post backpass rule championship?

He's absolutely no different to the loon on the Utd thread who hopefully was banned
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

gawa316

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 24, 2020, 05:53:06 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 24, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
Quote from: laoislad on January 24, 2020, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 12:11:45 PM
Which trio has scored more goals this season: Salah, Mané and Firmino or Rashford, Martial and Greenwood?
What's the answer now?

Obsessed.

Can you not just enjoy your own sides historically good run and the prospect of a first post backpass rule championship?

He's absolutely no different to the loon on the Utd thread who hopefully was banned

First part of your post is absolutely ridiculous

nrico2006

Quote from: rodney trotter on January 24, 2020, 03:29:24 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on January 24, 2020, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on January 24, 2020, 11:03:06 AM
In fairness Ferdinand was asked about that clip after the PSG game, and said he was caught up in the emotion like a fan. He is a bit excitable at times, but would be worth seeing if he would improve United with transfers etc.. He's the only one from the club that shown a interest in becoming a DOF at United.

The role of a DOF needs to be someone that has pervious experience and he doesn't have to be a former player. I think bringing in the likes of Rio or Fletcher they will become nothing more than another PR puppet while Woodward will remain in strong control over each transfers and player contract.

At the moment Woodward is haggling over the price tag of Bruno Fernandes if he wasn't such a idiot when it comes to football matters clubs wouldn't overvalue their players when he comes calling.

To get champions league football for next season via 4th in the league or winning the EL 2 quality players at least are needed to be signed or loaned in during this transfer window, probably 3 now with the long term Rashford injury and its looking more likely the transfer window will be closed without bringing anyone in. Thats on the board and Woodward if they don't do the required business in the next week, worst of all if they fail they will use Ole as a puppet to tell the media that he's happy with his squad and players coming back from injury will be like new signings.

Why needs? United never had one before, so can't compare to previous. Van Der Sar had no experience before Ajax

It's Joel Glazer who pulled the plug on the Fernandes deal, not Woodword.

What has Van Der Sar done to be mentioned as a candidate for DOF?
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'