Brexit: Stop border controls petition

[armaghniac]

Actually I think the QUB piece was a bit over the top and it doesn't reflect well on the university.

The basic point is that the British are doing this to change things and any change in this respect is both undesirable in itself and a undermining of the Good Friday agreement as it is a change not requested by the people in Ireland, north and south.

If the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling.

What will happen in the London government? One presumes the little Englanders would have more influence at least. But even if this does not change much there would a lot of confusion, and the UK government would have to negotiate all manners of things, I'm not sure that they would pay full attention to this issue. The "EU" is 26 other countries, say Romania wishes to ensure that its citizens can still come to Britain and they play silly buggers in the process and refuse to agree to any treaty that does not do this? It could be messy.

I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.

The SNP cause might be as well served by a significantly different vote in Scotland than in England. What would be interesting would be if England was 50.1% out, but the Celtic fringe kept the UK in.

[LeoMc]

Actually I think the QUB piece was a bit over the top and it doesn't reflect well on the university.

The basic point is that the British are doing this to change things and any change in this respect is both undesirable in itself and a undermining of the Good Friday agreement as it is a change not requested by the people in Ireland, north and south.

If the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling.

What will happen in the London government? One presumes the little Englanders would have more influence at least. But even if this does not change much there would a lot of confusion, and the UK government would have to negotiate all manners of things, I'm not sure that they would pay full attention to this issue. The "EU" is 26 other countries, say Romania wishes to ensure that its citizens can still come to Britain and they play silly buggers in the process and refuse to agree to any treaty that does not do this? It could be messy.

I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.

The SNP cause might be as well served by a significantly different vote in Scotland than in England. What would be interesting would be if England was 50.1% out, but the Celtic fringe kept the UK in.

I think the point here is that no negotiations are required to maintain something already agreed to. Our Romanian straw men cannot block a previously signed treaty.

[armaghniac]

I think the point here is that no negotiations are required to maintain something already agreed to. Our Romanian straw men cannot block a previously signed treaty.

I think the point here is that Britain withdrawing from the EU nullifies a shedload of agreements made when they were in the EU and these have to be made again. Ireland and the UK (outside the EU) cannot just agree to have free trade among themselves any more than Romania can just decide to open its border with Moldova (which it might well like to do).

[muppet]

Actually I think the QUB piece was a bit over the top and it doesn't reflect well on the university.

The basic point is that the British are doing this to change things and any change in this respect is both undesirable in itself and a undermining of the Good Friday agreement as it is a change not requested by the people in Ireland, north and south.

If the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling.

What will happen in the London government? One presumes the little Englanders would have more influence at least. But even if this does not change much there would a lot of confusion, and the UK government would have to negotiate all manners of things, I'm not sure that they would pay full attention to this issue. The "EU" is 26 other countries, say Romania wishes to ensure that its citizens can still come to Britain and they play silly buggers in the process and refuse to agree to any treaty that does not do this? It could be messy.

I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.

The SNP cause might be as well served by a significantly different vote in Scotland than in England. What would be interesting would be if England was 50.1% out, but the Celtic fringe kept the UK in.

I agree with most of this. The point about 'little Englanders' though is that they are very much English, and are unlikely to be that bothered about the 6 counties.

Like I said, it wold take something radical gaining power in the Dáil or Westminster to destabilise the status quo. Of course it could happen, but I don't see it at the moment.

[LeoMc]

I think the point here is that no negotiations are required to maintain something already agreed to. Our Romanian straw men cannot block a previously signed treaty.

I think the point here is that Britain withdrawing from the EU nullifies a shedload of agreements made when they were in the EU and these have to be made again. Ireland and the UK (outside the EU) cannot just agree to have free trade among themselves any more than Romania can just decide to open its border with Moldova (which it might well like to do).

You are correct, any agreements made as part of the EU would be null an void. I was referring to the Common travel area in place prior to ascension to the EU.

[Keyboard Warrior]

Could you imagine the British army returning to South Armagh. Sitting ducks springs to mind.

A primary reason why border patrols won't be introduced in my opinion. It would be a pretty big boost for the dissidents too as everyone along the border steadily gets more and more wound up by being searched by British soldiers every time they want to cross the border.

The UK border checks will be withdrawn to GB in event of Brexit. Would serve to highlight the absurdity of the border here IMO.

[BennyCake]

I'd say these polls are bollix. If people see them, and 2/3s of the uk are remaining in EU, then it's all psychological as most will go with the crowd, because they obviously know more than I do etc.

[Maguire01]

See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.

One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.

Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.

The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?

[armaghniac]

See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.

One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.

Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.

The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?

I think as Keyboard Warrier states above, the effective control would be at GB ports and airports, given the practical difficulties in doing anything around the NI border. Unionist would whine about this, but most people in NI would probably prefer this given the alternative.

But even customs type stuff could be very disruptive to business.

[muppet]

See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.

One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.

Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.

The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?

EU passengers arriving in Ireland must show a passport which is the same as US passengers arriving in Ireland, albeit in a different queue. Anyone arriving in Britain from either the EU or the US must go through the same process. The only exception is people arriving from Ireland.

There is no need currently for anyone to show a passport going from anywhere in Ireland to anywhere in Britain (Ryanair's rule is their own policy).

The reason that I mention the US is that their security is approved by the EU, which means the the EU accepts transfer passengers from the US without re-processing them through a security check. It is different for Canada and the rest of the world as there is no agreement with the EU.

I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.

[armaghniac]

I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.

This would be fine, although they haven't managed to do this for non EU nationalities to date.
The problem arises if Britain decides (say) that Bulgarians need a visa even for a tourist visit. Or if the EU makes a deal with Turkey, as they have recently have done, to ease visa restrictions.
If the boat to Holyhead or Stranraer ends up full of Bulgarians then you get controls at GB.

[Captain Obvious]

http://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/irishman-living-in-britain-vows-to-back-brexit-because-immigrants-are-coming-to-london-to-take-work-34757338.html

[muppet]

I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.

This would be fine, although they haven't managed to do this for non EU nationalities to date.
The problem arises if Britain decides (say) that Bulgarians need a visa even for a tourist visit. Or if the EU makes a deal with Turkey, as they have recently have done, to ease visa restrictions.
If the boat to Holyhead or Stranraer ends up full of Bulgarians then you get controls at GB.

This type of problem has already arisen. Ireland wanted to join Schengen, Britain didn't. So Ireland didn't join.

[Farrandeelin]

Brexit won't happen anyway.

[doodaa]

I don't think there will be a Brexit either.
As disgruntled as your average Brit is at the moment they fear change just as much as most people. Better the devil you know and all that. Similar situation as the Scottish Independence vote and we know how that went.

There just hasn't been a clear view as to what the situation would be outside the EU.