Down Club Hurling & Football

[Mike Tyson]

Can anyone post the Down Club Allstars team & nominees to see how many are on the panel?

Surely these were the best players in Down last year so should have been asked.

The full List of nominees for the O'Reilly Transport Club Down Allstars are as follows:

Goalkeepers:
Stephen Kane (Kilcoo) - On panel
Mark Reid (Bryansford) - On panel

Backs:
Aaron Branagan (Kilcoo) - No
Daryl Branagan (Kilcoo) - No
Conor Doyle (An Ríocht) - No
Kevin Duffin (Castlewellan) - No
Tommy McElroy (Bredagh) - No (probably not an option)
Gerard McGovern (Burren) - On panel
Shane McNamee (Mayobridge) - No
Daniel Morgan (Castlewellan) - No
Darren O'Hagan (Clonduff) - On panel
Robbie White (Ballyholland) - No
Midfielders:
Dan Gordon (Loughinisland) - No (said he wouldnt go back so can rule him out)
Paul Greenan (Kilcoo) - No (Australia at the minute can rule him out too)
Shane Harrison (Glasdrumman) - No
Stephen Rooney (Ardglass) - No

Forwards:
Cathal Arnold (Saul) - No
Aidan Burns (Castlewellan) - No (Australia too)
Connaire Harrison (Glasdrumman) - On panel
Gareth Johnston (Tullylish) - Has he left the panel?
Jerome Johnston (Kilcoo) - Injured
Ryan Johnston (Kilcoo) - Injured
Rory Mason (Loughinisland) - No
Donagh McAleenan (Warrenpoint) - No
Shay Miller (Glenn) - No
Ryan O'Hare (Ballymartin) - No (works in London so probably not an option)

As far as I'm aware this is the status of these players. Does anyone think anyone excluded from the panel but on this list should have been given a chance? Or is there a reason they haven't been given a chance?

Just thinking here, how are these nominations made? Do the club nominate their own players or do they nominate players from different clubs within their division?

Think opposition managers nominate players their teams have played against.

[Verticalball]

Guevara the main problem with McKernan in my eyes is that he has had to move position so many times to try and plug the gaps left by others who are not available for whatever reason. Down aren't getting the best of him as a result and he looks like a player short on confidence. He is being used as a sweeper far too often instead of being more attack minded. Think of Celtic park three years ago and his performance when he was given the freedom to attack.

Benny would be far from the saviour of Down football at this stage but as I've already said, the value of having a Benny Coulter, Joe McMahon or Dick Clerkin about the place can't be underestimated. He may be a shadow of the player he once was but that doesn't mean he couldn't have an impact if asked.

[guevara]

Kevin McKernan is not played out of position for Burren though and he regularly struggles to have any impact on games, especially the more important ones for his Club. Any time I have watched them Conal McGovern or Eamonn Toner would be their "go to" player.

I am not criticising Benny, far from it. I was and remain a huge fan of his but he is not the player he was in 2010 and the impact he is having on Club games is dwindling yet people continue to name him alongside Marty Clarke, Dan Gordon, Ambrose Rodgers and Peter Fitzpatrick as players who can come in and rescue the County from this fiasco. I watched Fitzpatrick last year and this year and he isn't fit and a shadow of the player he was yet his name will continue to be fired about.

The reality is that unless the correct Manager is put in place, who is prepared to select players based on Club form then the dire state of of our Senior Team will continue to be discussed in the next few years.

[whitegoodman]

Kevin McKernan is not played out of position for Burren though and he regularly struggles to have any impact on games, especially the more important ones for his Club. Any time I have watched them Conal McGovern or Eamonn Toner would be their "go to" player.

I am not criticising Benny, far from it. I was and remain a huge fan of his but he is not the player he was in 2010 and the impact he is having on Club games is dwindling yet people continue to name him alongside Marty Clarke, Dan Gordon, Ambrose Rodgers and Peter Fitzpatrick as players who can come in and rescue the County from this fiasco. I watched Fitzpatrick last year and this year and he isn't fit and a shadow of the player he was yet his name will continue to be fired about.

The reality is that unless the correct Manager is put in place, who is prepared to select players based on Club form then the dire state of of our Senior Team will continue to be discussed in the next few years.

Can't really argue with any of that.  If add play the boys in the position they are performing for their club, eg Conal McGovern wing forward and not full back !!

[Maiden1]

Guevara the main problem with McKernan in my eyes is that he has had to move position so many times to try and plug the gaps left by others who are not available for whatever reason.

Kevin McKernan had a great season at chb in 2010 but is barely 6ft so to expect him to win a high percentage of kickouts against the best midfielders in Ireland is unrealistic.  A midfielders first criteria should be that if either team kick the ball long that they will have a decent chance of either catching the ball clean or making sure that that the opposition doesn't and be athletic enough to get up and down the pitch.  Anything else they can do is a bonus.  There is plenty of very successful intercounty midfielders e.g.  Neil Gallagher, Michael Dara Macauley, Eamon Burns .. who I would not describe as great footballers in the purest sense but have performed very important roles for there teams.

Similarly in the forward line Down seem to pick players and then put them in positions as opposed to pick a system and then find players for each position within the system.  In 1991 and 1994 Shorty Trainer was one of the best club players in Ireland but Down went with Greg Blaney in chf, they did not try to find a way of having 2 play making 1/2 forwards and sacrifice a ball winner like Peter Withnall or Aidan Farrell to accomodate.

Maybe a few Div 1 players would be better than Div 2 players at this stage.

I think that the perception that all county players should be playing in division 1 and most at the top of division 1 is a problem.  In the 1991 and 1994 1/2 the starting team was outside division 1.  In 1992 Burren lost in an ulster final replay to Lavey but there was 0 Burren players starting for Down between 1992 and 94.  In Fermanagh there is 21 senior clubs, last year Pete McGrath had at least 1 panel member from 20 of those clubs.

We need a system in place to firstly identify and then bring potential players through from all over the county and if we have potential players from weaker teams that would benefit from a weights program or some specialised coaching to bring them up to county standard then we should do this.  I like the model Kerry have to find players where they have 4 divisional teams in division 1 made up of the best players from all the other teams, the divisional teams in Kerry cannot be relegated.  It's almost impossible to expect a manager to come in to manage Down and expect them to know every player throughout the whole county, even if they did watch a match how would they know if a potential player stars because they are good or because the player he is marking is sh1te.  If they were corner back on a divisional team and could keep Benny Coulter scoreless then at least you know you have someone that is worth watching a second time.

There is a lot of rose tinted glasses about bringing Benny and Dan back, that it will solve all Downs problems but Benny will be 35 next year, it's not like we are 1 player short of winning something like Cork where when they brought Dinny Allen back in 1989.  Good as Benny and Dan where in there prime it was certainly no guarantee of success if we look at the championship defeats Down have had over the years when they were playing.

01/08/1999 DOWN 0 - 10 3 - 12 ARMAGH
28/05/2000 DOWN 1 - 7 0 - 13 ANTRIM
09/06/2001 DOWN 2 - 4 1 - 13 ARMAGH
02/06/2002 DOWN 1 - 6 3 - 12 DONEGAL
08/06/2002 DOWN 0 - 14 1 - 16 LONGFORD
13/07/2003 DOWN 4 - 8 1 - 17 TYRONE
20/07/2003 DOWN 1 - 5 0 - 23 TYRONE
26/07/2003 DOWN 2 - 10 3 - 15 DONEGAL
30/05/2004 DOWN 2 - 12 3 - 13 CAVAN
03/07/2004 DOWN 0 - 10 1 - 15 TYRONE
22/05/2005 DOWN 1 - 6 1 - 13 TYRONE
03/07/2005 DOWN 2 - 9 3 - 8 DERRY
04/06/2006 DOWN 1 - 11 1 - 12 DONEGAL
17/06/2006 DOWN 0 - 4 1 - 7 SLIGO
10/06/2007 DOWN 1 - 15 2 - 15 MONAGHAN
07/07/2007 DOWN 0 - 8 1 - 10 MEATH
29/06/2008 DOWN 0 - 11 1 - 12 ARMAGH
02/08/2008 DOWN 0 - 12 2 - 13 WEXFORD
17/05/2009 DOWN 0 - 10 0 - 13 FERMANAGH
18/07/2009 DOWN 0 - 17 1 - 15 WICKLOW
19/09/2010 DOWN 0 - 15 0 - 16 CORK
28/05/2011 DOWN 1 - 10 1 - 15 ARMAGH
23/07/2011 DOWN 0 - 14 2 - 20 CORK
22/07/2012 DOWN 0 - 13 2 - 18 DONEGAL
04/08/2012 DOWN 2 - 9 3 - 18 MAYO
23/06/2013 DOWN 0 - 9 0 - 12 DONEGAL
06/07/2013 DOWN 1 - 5 0 - 13 DERRY
24/05/2014 DOWN 0 - 12 3 - 11 TYRONE
13/07/2014 DOWN 0 - 11 1 - 18 KILDARE
07/06/2015 DOWN 0 - 11 0 - 12 DERRY
27/06/2015 DOWN 2 - 11 2 - 16 WEXFORD
05/06/2016 DOWN 0 - 9 2 - 22 MONAGHAN

[NP 76]

Looks like Davidson is away to Antrim

[bannside]

Speculative.... you can't hang your countys problems entirely on development squad activity. That's far too convenient.

The "development" of the perfect footballer is down to many influences. Genetic probably being the biggest. Primary school, secondary/grammar school, parental influence, club coaches the whole way up, and...If all this is in place....a county development coach could probably take this on another yard or two. But it's a whole combination of factors not just one.

So in keeping with your theory all the county secretary has to do us oversee the appointment of say....Benny Coulter.. to take responsibility of Down development squads and within five years Down will be back winning All Irelands!

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Greg Blaneys the Mickey Lindens and the James Mc Cartans would still have been the best footballers in the land if they had never set foot in a development squad. You either have it or you don't....and sadly the footballers just arnt there at the minute. Surely that's plain to see.

Wobbler gets this to be fair.

But sure go ahead and blame the county secretary anyway you need a scapegoat of some kind and he is the easy target. As I said before some of you are hilarious!

[bannside]

Or let's keep it even simpler. Apart from Marty Clarke who is a class act have Down got one player who would make the Dublin squad?

Down are going through the same problems as Derry, Armagh, Meath and other counties who managed to win an all Ireland or two based on having a dozen class acts all sitting in the same dressing room.

You could have twenty middling greyhounds but sadly not one of them will win a classic.

[thebar]

Speculative.... you can't hang your countys problems entirely on development squad activity. That's far too convenient.

The "development" of the perfect footballer is down to many influences. Genetic probably being the biggest. Primary school, secondary/grammar school, parental influence, club coaches the whole way up, and...If all this is in place....a county development coach could probably take this on another yard or two. But it's a whole combination of factors not just one.

So in keeping with your theory all the county secretary has to do us oversee the appointment of say....Benny Coulter.. to take responsibility of Down development squads and within five years Down will be back winning All Irelands!

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Greg Blaneys the Mickey Lindens and the James Mc Cartans would still have been the best footballers in the land if they had never set foot in a development squad. You either have it or you don't....and sadly the footballers just arnt there at the minute. Surely that's plain to see.

Wobbler gets this to be fair.

But sure go ahead and blame the county secretary anyway you need a scapegoat of some kind and he is the easy target. As I said before some of you are hilarious!

It's those bloody Genetics that are the problem... If only we had some Tyrone or Monaghan men or woman that would move into the county and give us some footballers! f**k me lads what have you's all been doing since 94 is it her or your fault!

[Smurfy123]

Bannside has hit the nail on the head
You either have a bit of football in you are not
Do you think all the great players came through development squads?
No chance!They will make it to the top with or without development squads
They should be getting developed at ther clubs
The bigger clubs will always produce the best players as they are getting better developed at CLUBS
This MYTH that we need our development squads sorted is bull
How many of the 99-05 minor teams went through development sqauds?
They had extremely talented players who came through together at the right time that now we just don't have
Cut the crap about all this development at look to get the best 30 players on the squad to play for Down every year and at the minute there is 15 not there at least
Gordan,Clarke,Laverty,Garvey,Mooney,Madine,Johnstones(injured)Brannigan,McParland and a few more
Imagine we played Monaghan with this team
Cunningham 21
O hagen24 McGovern 21McArdle 28
Garvey 28McParland 23McKernan 28
Gordan31 Turley31
Johnstone 22Poland 30mooney24
Laverty 30clarke28 Johnstone /O Hare24

Subs
McGovern
Harrison
Kane
Maginn

I put ages beside the team but obviously I could be out a few years with some
Let's face the reality here
And under the current set up not a hope of getting that team out

[thebar]

Bannside has hit the nail on the head
You either have a bit of football in you are not
Do you think all the great players came through development squads?
No chance!They will make it to the top with or without development squads
They should be getting developed at ther clubs
The bigger clubs will always produce the best players as they are getting better developed at CLUBS
This MYTH that we need our development squads sorted is bull
How many of the 99-05 minor teams went through development sqauds?
They had extremely talented players who came through together at the right time that now we just don't have
Cut the crap about all this development at look to get the best 30 players on the squad to play for Down every year and at the minute there is 15 not there at least
Gordan,Clarke,Laverty,Garvey,Mooney,Madine,Johnstones(injured)Brannigan,McParland and a few more
Imagine we played Monaghan with this team
Cunningham 21
O hagen24 McGovern 21McArdle 28
Garvey 28McParland 23McKernan 28
Gordan31 Turley31
Johnstone 22Poland 30mooney24
Laverty 30clarke28 Johnstone /O Hare24

Subs
McGovern
Harrison
Kane
Maginn

I put ages beside the team but obviously I could be out a few years with some
Let's face the reality here
And under the current set up not a hope of getting that team out

There's your problem right there - imagine we had played with this team here...and what? that's the best team you can name from this county and they would still have been beat out the door on Sunday...but sure we would only been beat by 10 points instead of 19 so i suppose thats kind of a moral victory isn't it. No need to put any time or effort into improving footballers or bringing lads through sure we'll sit on our hands and wait until the next batch magically appear... they will come along some time...maybe in 5 years, 10 years could even be 40 but they will come and sure we can all watch the Tyrones / Donegal / Monaghan continue to power ahead of us. Somebody let me know when they are coming.

[Smurfy123]

That team would not have been beat out the door
Sure Down best them a few seasons ago
Monaghan yes have improved but that day Down had no clarke mooney johnstones gordan

[speculative]

Speculative.... you can't hang your countys problems entirely on development squad activity. That's far too convenient.

The "development" of the perfect footballer is down to many influences. Genetic probably being the biggest. Primary school, secondary/grammar school, parental influence, club coaches the whole way up, and...If all this is in place....a county development coach could probably take this on another yard or two. But it's a whole combination of factors not just one.

So in keeping with your theory all the county secretary has to do us oversee the appointment of say....Benny Coulter.. to take responsibility of Down development squads and within five years Down will be back winning All Irelands!

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Greg Blaneys the Mickey Lindens and the James Mc Cartans would still have been the best footballers in the land if they had never set foot in a development squad. You either have it or you don't....and sadly the footballers just arnt there at the minute. Surely that's plain to see.

Wobbler gets this to be fair.

But sure go ahead and blame the county secretary anyway you need a scapegoat of some kind and he is the easy target. As I said before some of you are hilarious!

Ridiculous statement. In your mind those born in Tyrone in the last 30 years have a better genetic make up than those born in Down or Armagh and that's the reason why they're streets ahead of us? Jesus, Charles Darwin lives!!

Tyrone are streets ahead of us because they invested in their infrastructure to develop young talent. Simple as that.

Down stumbled upon 2 good minor teams in 99 and 05, does that mean that we have to wait for another anomaly in the genetic make up until we can have another decent minor team?

Ridiculous, utterly!

[thebar]

Speculative.... you can't hang your countys problems entirely on development squad activity. That's far too convenient.

The "development" of the perfect footballer is down to many influences. Genetic probably being the biggest. Primary school, secondary/grammar school, parental influence, club coaches the whole way up, and...If all this is in place....a county development coach could probably take this on another yard or two. But it's a whole combination of factors not just one.

So in keeping with your theory all the county secretary has to do us oversee the appointment of say....Benny Coulter.. to take responsibility of Down development squads and within five years Down will be back winning All Irelands!

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Greg Blaneys the Mickey Lindens and the James Mc Cartans would still have been the best footballers in the land if they had never set foot in a development squad. You either have it or you don't....and sadly the footballers just arnt there at the minute. Surely that's plain to see.

Wobbler gets this to be fair.

But sure go ahead and blame the county secretary anyway you need a scapegoat of some kind and he is the easy target. As I said before some of you are hilarious!

Ridiculous statement. In your mind those born in Tyrone in the last 30 years have a better genetic make up than those born in Down or Armagh and that's the reason why they're streets ahead of us? Jesus, Charles Darwin lives!!

Tyrone are streets ahead of us because they invested in their infrastructure to develop young talent. Simple as that.

Down stumbled upon 2 good minor teams in 99 and 05, does that mean that we have to wait for another anomaly in the genetic make up until we can have another decent minor team?

Ridiculous, utterly!

I dont think you could have put it better.

[Smurfy123]

What does the development squads do to make players better?
They talk about Cavan sure the best a brutal Armagh team and got promoted from a poor division 2
They also got hammered out the gate in last years championship
We got promoted last year
The Donegal team of 2010 got hammered by Armagh in Cross by 15 points jim mcguiness takes over the following year and they get to all Ireland semi final and the rest is history
No sign of a development plan in sight
He got the best 25 players in Donegal and had them eating out of his hands for 3 years and the dominated
Where was the development sqauds?