FIFA eligibility- new and re-worded

[SammyG]

And Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality

A player whose nationality allows them to choose  to play for 2 or more associations.
e.g. British passport - 4 associations

If their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI

NO
Article 16 is for footballers whoose nationality allows them to choose different associations.
Your scenario does not fit the terms of Article 16

On what grounds does it not fit Article 16? It is almost exactly what Article 16 is about.

Under the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.

Irish citizens born in the north have been declaring for the Republic since the time Brian Kerr "broke" the gentlemanly deal between the IFA and the FAI.
These lads have had the automatic right to play for the Republic under the article 15.
This article has been reworded to be be even more plainly understood.

It is all a bit too frustrating that Northern Ireland is just not happening as well in the image that they think it should be.

That was prior to the 2004 rule change. Not a single player has declared and played since.

[Main Street]

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

Not so. You were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic on birth. I remember having to prove eligibility when getting me first passport.

think everyone still has to do that...

Even the pure Irish have to prove their lineage.
Full Birth certificate?

[Main Street]

That was prior to the 2004 rule change. Not a single player has declared and played since.

I have given you the names of 4 or 5 players from Derry who declæared after 2004

[magickingdom]

btw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either

Try to keep up. Gibson applied under the pre-2004 rules and is therefore elligible. Everybody (even me!!) has accepted this long ago and moved on.

yeah but you were the last one on the planet to accept it, you were still typing shite on that one when the second last person on the planet had accepted it..

[Chrisowc]

Can anyone find an official response to FIFA's suggested compromise that everyone born in Ireland is eligible for either association?

I seem to remember some opposition at the time (from NI side) but not sure who from.  Politicians? Fans?

If Main Street's interpretation is correct then why would IFA be so pleased with themselves after returning from Australia?

There can only be two reasons.

1, They are clowns - (they are clowns whatever the outcome of this btw).

2, IFA accepted FIFA's compromise solution & having an Irish passport makes you eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

Just a thought.

[Main Street]

Can anyone find an official response to FIFA's suggested compromise that everyone born in Ireland is eligible for either association?

I seem to remember some opposition at the time (from NI side) but not sure who from.  Politicians? Fans?

There was no official response afair.
When the compromise was first announced there were reactions.
The IFA reaction quoted in the papers was outright negative.
The FAI as usual did not say yes or no, were pleased that the ball was still in their court and said they would take legal advice.

The 2 associations were then to meet and see if they could come up with an agreement.

Bear in mind that the 2 associations could have negotiated terms of eligibility and put their own conditions of residence as per FIFA statutes and with FIFA approval.
Therefore it was curious that the IFA publically rejected the compromise outright.
I suspect that Howard does not know much about FIFA statutes, confirmed more and more by every public utterance on the matter and this week he talks nonsense about the importance of territory of an association when FIFA statutes are about nationality eligibility, not association territory.

Nothing was heard was until FIFA stated in December 2007 that both associations could not agree therefore the previous situation still stands there will be no change.
(Only Sammy regarded that one as a victory even months later)

If Main Street's interpretation is correct then

It is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.

why would IFA be so pleased with themselves after returning from Australia?

There can only be two reasons.

1, They are clowns - (they are clowns whatever the outcome of this btw).

2, IFA accepted FIFA's compromise solution & having an Irish passport makes you eligible to play for Northern Ireland.
Just a thought

.

Remember, they were also delirious after they came back from Switzerland before the famous compromise proposal.
The IFA being delirious does not mean anything.

What I look for, is there a logical reason in the Statutes for them to be delirious? I see none.
FIFA have stated they have made no changes to the legality.
The wording of the statutes confirm this.

[SammyG]

It is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.

Make your f**king mind up. Mooretwin believes that everbody in NI has dual nationality (I don't agree with him but that's a different discussion) and therefore the dual nationality rules apply. You have been arguing that Article 15 applies, which has absoultely nothing to do with dual nationality.

[nifan]

I really dont know how either of you can be so 100% sure of your position. there are numerous ways to read this, and until the situation arises when FIFA have to actually take a stand we dont really know where they stand.

[Main Street]

It is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.

Make your f**king mind up. Mooretwin believes that everbody in NI has dual nationality (I don't agree with him but that's a different discussion) and therefore the dual nationality rules apply. You have been arguing that Article 15 applies, which has absoultely nothing to do with dual nationality.

You have to go back to Moore twin and ask him a few more questions.
Moore Twin has been trying to tell you that Article 15 is for Dual Nationals

You asked him
"Why do you keep stating that the dual nationality rules (article 15) apply, when the players involved don't have dual nationality?"

He replied
"Er, because they do have dual nationality, Sammy,  Didn't you read my posts last night?"

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality"

[Main Street]

I really dont know how either of you can be so 100% sure of your position. there are numerous ways to read this, and until the situation arises when FIFA have to actually take a stand we dont really know where they stand.

Maybe you are not sure what having 2 nationalites means. I don't think you are. Certainly not MW or Sammy.

I would say that as certainty goes I am certain about how dual nationality works and is interpreted by Governments, constitution and courts.
I have had to be knowledgable about dual nationality.

The only question is are FIFA referring to Dual nationality in Article 15, because sure as feck they are not referring to dual nationality in Article 16.
Conventional legal knowledge, examination of FIFA practice and FIFA application of their statutes gives me a degree of certainty that the eligibility of dual nationality in the North and the the type of unconditional citizenship that the Irish Gov grant,  mean that the wording of Article 15 fits perfectly.

There is always a very very small chance that FIFA have not that intention
But we are talking about another Foinavon.
Thats what the hopes of the OWC are hanging onto when the Republic next sign up another young player.

[MW]

I really dont know how either of you can be so 100% sure of your position. there are numerous ways to read this, and until the situation arises when FIFA have to actually take a stand we dont really know where they stand.

Maybe you are not sure what having 2 nationalites means. I don't think you are. Certainly not MW or Sammy.

I would say that as certainty goes I am certain about how dual nationality works and is interpreted by Governments, constitution and courts.
I have had to be knowledgable about dual nationality.

The only question is are FIFA referring to Dual nationality in Article 15, because sure as feck they are not referring to dual nationality in Article 16.
Conventional legal knowledge, examination of FIFA practice and FIFA application of their statutes gives me a degree of certainty that the eligibility of dual nationality in the North and the the type of unconditional citizenship that the Irish Gov grant,  mean that the wording of Article 15 fits perfectly.

There is always a very very small chance that FIFA have not that intention
But we are talking about another Foinavon.
Thats what the hopes of the OWC are hanging onto when the Republic next sign up another young player.

My take for what it's worth: anyone* from Northern Ireland who takes up their entitlement to Irish citizenship is technically the holder of 'dual nationality', since, unless they have renounced it, they'll also hold UK citizenship.

I'm not sure this is relevant to Articles 15 or 16.

As far as I can tell (and I've been out of the country so am coming to this latest version of the story late), it boils down to, as ever, whether Irish citizenship counts as qualifying a player to play for Northern Ireland, in the same way that British citizenship does. If it does, the provisions of Article 16 apply when it comes to eligibility for the Republic of Ireland. If it doesn't, they don't.

I don't think FIFA want to spell out the answer, either.




*well, almost anyone. There are a few who are born in the UK who aren't eligible for citizenship.

[Main Street]

I'm not sure this is relevant to Articles 15 or 16.

As far as I can tell (and I've been out of the country so am coming to this latest version of the story late), it boils down to, as ever, whether Irish citizenship counts as qualifying a player to play for Northern Ireland, in the same way that British citizenship does. If it does, the provisions of Article 16 apply when it comes to eligibility for the Republic of Ireland. If it doesn't, they don't.

No you don't get the nationality bit.

There is no technicality about full citizenship.
I know it's like sunlight on the skin of a vampire but the Irish Constitution offers the Full Irish nationality unconditionally.
Because that constitutional right exists to NI born without any extra condition, it is regarded as a full nationality.
You do not have to use it at all but the fact that it exists to be taken up means it is a bona fide full 100% nationality.


As I said Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for NI.
How can it?
ONLY UK nationality qualifies you to play for NI
NI is BRITISH   
How do you not know that.  Did you think it was lost already to the South
Being born in the 6 Counties automatically makes you a British national.

I don't think FIFA want to spell out the answer, either.

FIFA have spelled it out.
They probably do not realise that the OWC do not know that UK Nationality alone qualifies you to play for NI.
FIFA probably took that bit for granted.
I mean, who would have guessed that NI is still part of the UK
and that what determines UK nationality is the British Nationality act

I wonder what other football association and their supporters have that same problem,
not knowing what nationality their association is and what nationality a footballer needs to play for them.

BTW. Sepp Blatter in to post congress press conference (video on FIFA site)
says that dual nationality eligibility is not affected.
It's the millions of Brazilians he is after.

[MW]

I'm not sure this is relevant to Articles 15 or 16.

As far as I can tell (and I've been out of the country so am coming to this latest version of the story late), it boils down to, as ever, whether Irish citizenship counts as qualifying a player to play for Northern Ireland, in the same way that British citizenship does. If it does, the provisions of Article 16 apply when it comes to eligibility for the Republic of Ireland. If it doesn't, they don't.

No you don't get the nationality bit.

There is no technicality about full citizenship.
I know it's like sunlight on the skin of a vampire but the Irish Constitution offers the Full Irish nationality unconditionally.
Because that constitutional right exists to NI born without any extra condition, it is regarded as a full nationality.
You do not have to use it at all but the fact that it exists to be taken up means it is a bona fide full 100% nationality.

Despite what you've assumed I wasn't withholding any sort of recognition of anyone's Irish citizenship. I actually used the word "technically" in deference to those nationalists who hold only an Irish passport and have no want of UK citizenship but through their birth in the UK are actually British citizens too in law, and therefore hold technical 'dual nationality'.

As I said Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for NI.
How can it?
ONLY UK nationality qualifies you to play for NI
NI is BRITISH   
How do you not know that.  Did you think it was lost already to the South
Being born in the 6 Counties automatically makes you a British national.

I know that Northern Ireland is British territory and about British citizenship

What I don't kow is whether FIFA have decided that since a British-Irish treaty allows people from Northern Ireland to have Irish citizneship as well as British citizenship, they should both be treated as Northern Ireland's 'qualifying nationalities'.

FIFA have spelled it out.
They probably do not realise that the OWC do not know that UK Nationality alone qualifies you to play for NI.
FIFA probably took that bit for granted.
I mean, who would have guessed that NI is still part of the UK
and that what determines UK nationality is the British Nationality act

I wonder what other football association and their supporters have that same problem,
not knowing what nationality their association is and what nationality a footballer needs to play for them.

Don't worry I know that NI is part of the UK

But I also know that recently FIFA have been lobbied by the government of the Republic of Ireland about how its citizenship is also available to people in Northern Ireland, and that therefore people using its passprts should be allowed to play for Northern Ireland.

What is unclear to me is whether FIFA accepts these passports as showing requisite nationality/citizenship (along with birth in NI) or whether they're used for identification purposes and whether the IFA has to certify that these players actually also hold UK citizenship even if they don't have a UK passport. (Indeed an Irish passport with a birthplace in NI would in most cases indicate the holder is also a UK citizen...)

To give a hypothetical example. An Italian couple are on holiday in Northern Ireland (hm, you never know) in 2002 and the woman goes into unexpected labout and gives birth in Belfast. 18 years later, her son isn't quite good enough to play for Italy, but might be able to get on for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. He can get an Irish passport because of his birthplace, but isn't eligible for UK citizenship. Can he play for Northern Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland, or choose which one of the two as he's eligible for both?

[Main Street]

I know that Northern Ireland is British territory and about British citizenship

What I don't kow is whether FIFA have decided that since a British-Irish treaty allows people from Northern Ireland to have Irish citizneship as well as British citizenship, they should both be treated as Northern Ireland's 'qualifying nationalities'.

You really have not got to grips with the GFA and the British Nationality Act.

As already mentioned loads of time previous on this thread
1. the gfa means feck all in this debate
2. irish citizenship is on offer to all people in ireland since the irish constitution was made law.
3. uk citizenship is due to the British Nat Act.
Got that
2  different full Nationalites, Dual Nationality.

The Northern Ireland football team has only one qualifying nationality, UK  Nationality. NI is integrated into the UK as per the British Nat act.
NI is not British and Irish 

Don't worry I know that NI is part of the UK

But I also know that recently FIFA have been lobbied by the government of the Republic of Ireland about how its citizenship is also available to people in Northern Ireland, and that therefore people using its passprts should be allowed to play for Northern Ireland

What is unclear to me is whether FIFA accepts these passports as showing requisite nationality/citizenship (along with birth in NI) or whether they're used for identification purposes and whether the IFA has to certify that these players actually also hold UK citizenship even if they don't have a UK passport. (Indeed an Irish passport with a birthplace in NI would in most cases indicate the holder is also a UK citizen...)

Only a UK National can play for NI.
What part of that do you not understand?

There is no such thing as a  Northern Irish born Irish Nationality who because of that nationality can play for NI and the Republic.
It does not exist.
There is only an Irish Nationality and a UK nationality
What the whole world understands to be 2 nationalites =  FIFA  Article 15.

International games require ID
FIFA demanded UK passport ID for games because NI can only play UK nationals, now each ref has a footnote saying that an Irish passport can be used for ID for a UK national playing for NI.
Registration of a player with FIFA is a different process. Born in NI means you are a British National, No further evidence is needed to be a British national.

To give a hypothetical example. An Italian couple are on holiday in Northern Ireland (hm, you never know) in 2002 and the woman goes into unexpected labout and gives birth in Belfast. 18 years later, her son isn't quite good enough to play for Italy, but might be able to get on for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. He can get an Irish passport because of his birthplace, but isn't eligible for UK citizenship. Can he play for Northern Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland, or choose which one of the two as he's eligible for both?

Entitled to Irish citizenship. can play for the Republic.
Not entitled to UK nationality, therefore can not play for NI


DREAM
The IFA statement on their website ---- claiming Victory
http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/4005/ifa-statement/

"FIFA has stated that their criteria – as detailed in Circular 901 (THE ANNEX) – must be applied when it comes to the matter of which national association a player is eligible to play for."
Then they  list the 5 criteria.

REALITY
FIFA have put the  Annex Criteria into  Article 17
and FIFA have headlined it
17.  Acquisition of a new nationality.

As we all know Irish citizenship is an unconditional citizenship available since birth. Therefore Article 17 has no relevance to Irish citizens.

But as thick and all as the IFA are, even they are not arguing that Article 16 applies.
Even they are not arguing that Irish nationality qualifies you to play for NI.

The IFA are much smarter than that,
they are forwarding the same argument that did not work before.

You guys are forwarding a more stupid argument than the IFA.
That achievement alone deserves some award from the GAA BOARD

[MW]

Only a UK National can play for NI.
What part of that do you not understand?

It's not that I "don't understand it", it's that I simply don't know whether it's true.

Neither do you.

No matter how many times you say it, you don't actually have anything from FIFA saying that's the case.

From a 'political' point of view, it accords with my own outlook, that Northern Ireland's nationality is British, and a significant minority there take up their entitlement to Irish citizenship. But I haven't seen any statement on how FIFA view this.