FIFA eligibility- new and re-worded

[magickingdom]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

the whole point is that irish citizenship alone does not allow you to play for ni, if it did i could! thats why art 15 alone applies

[Donagh]

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

Sammy the British government claims an estimated 800,000 Irish citizens born in the 26 counties (before 1949) as British citizens. This certainly doesn't mean those people have dual nationality.

[Solomon Kane]

If the ROI governments consider Northern Ireland nationalists, RCs, whatever to be citizens, should they not then allow them a vote and representation in the Dail? A postal vote at least would not be too much to ask.

Nationality criteria is not the same as voting criteria

It looks to me like nationalists in Northern Ireland have only partial ROI nationality which in fact appears to amount to very little in real terms. The ROI government should get off the fence over this issue. 

It doesn't matter how it looks to you.
What matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Perhaps or perhaps not, but were the ROI governments not guilty of discrimination against some of their "nationals" when they did claim jurisdiction over Northern Ireland pre-GFA?

[Donagh]

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

Not so. You were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic on birth. I remember having to prove eligibility when getting me first passport.

[magickingdom]

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

Not so. You were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic on birth. I remember having to prove eligibility when getting me first passport.

think everyone still has to do that...

[Turlough O Carolan]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

the whole point is that irish citizenship alone does not allow you to play for ni, if it did i could! thats why art 15 alone applies

I know that. But Irish citizenship and being born in the territory governed by the IFA does allow you to play for NI. And Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality. If their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI.

Under the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.

[SammyG]

What matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Are you actually insane or just on a wind-up? FIFA have never said anything of the sort.

[SammyG]

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

Sammy the British government claims an estimated 800,000 Irish citizens born in the 26 counties (before 1949) as British citizens. This certainly doesn't mean those people have dual nationality.

Err that's exactly the point I'm making (only with the Dail obviously). They don't have dual nationality.

[SammyG]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

100% correct

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

The issue is that they are not dual nationals, they are either RoI citizens or British citizens not both, so article 15 doesn't apply

[Main Street]

Perhaps or perhaps not, but were the ROI governments not guilty of discrimination against some of their "nationals" when they did claim jurisdiction over Northern Ireland pre-GFA?

Apart from Prods, Knackers, Gays, Unmarried Mothers, a few Blacks, Jews etc. I don't think discrimination was ever a problem since the Constitution was made law.

[magickingdom]

Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

If born in the north you are entitled to one of the following:

1. Irish nationality
2. British nationality
3. Irish and British nationality (note there is no northern Irish nationality)

That is my understanding but some people are arguing that we all get option 3 and don't have a choice in the matter.

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

If you fall under option 2 or 3 then you are subject to the other articles. 

Correct

your wrong and if you get to read the last few pages youll see why.
btw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either

[Tony hawks]

Perhaps or perhaps not, but were the ROI governments not guilty of discrimination against some of their "nationals" when they did claim jurisdiction over Northern Ireland pre-GFA?

Apart from Prods, Knackers, Gays, Unmarried Mothers, a few Blacks, Jews etc. I don't think discrimination was ever a problem since the Constitution was made law.

[Main Street]

What matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Are you actually insane or just on a wind-up? FIFA have never said anything of the sort.

All Northern Ireland born footballers who have declared for the Republic since 2003 have been able to declare under article 15.

Not one time have they been asked to comply with eligibility criteria that was in the Annex.
I already have given you the names of 4 Derry  footballers who have declared for the Republic even as recent as February 2008
Not one time have FIFA declared that anything other than article 15 need apply.

The world outside is very different to the world you have created in your head.

[Main Street]

I know that. But Irish citizenship and being born in the territory governed by the IFA does allow you to play for NI. And Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality. If their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI.

I think thats an impossible scenario.

I'll answer it bit by bit

But Irish citizenship and being born in the territory governed by the IFA does allow you to play for NI

NI is part of the UK still. The Unionists are not yet extinct..
Irish citizenship has nothing to do with being selected for NI, its being born in NI and being a British national are the determining factors.
Being born there means you are a British national. Even if you only used an Irish passport and never got a British passport you are still a British national.
NI is still British 
NI is not Irish and British.
NI does not issue Irish passports

And Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality

A player whose nationality allows them to choose  to play for 2 or more associations.
e.g. British passport - 4 associations

If their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI

NO
Article 16 is for footballers whoose nationality allows them to choose different associations.
Your scenario does not fit the terms of Article 16

Under the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.

Irish citizens born in the north have been declaring for the Republic since the time Brian Kerr "broke" the gentlemanly deal between the IFA and the FAI.
These lads have had the automatic right to play for the Republic under the article 15.
This article has been reworded to be be even more plainly understood.

It is all a bit too frustrating that Northern Ireland is just not happening as well in the image that they think it should be.

[SammyG]

btw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either

Try to keep up. Gibson applied under the pre-2004 rules and is therefore elligible. Everybody (even me!!) has accepted this long ago and moved on.