FIFA eligibility- new and re-worded

[Donagh]

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play.

Irish nationality doesn't make someone eligible to play for the IFA:


19 June 2006
FIFA overturn NI player passport ruling
Irish Foreign Minister, Dermot Ahern has today announced that FIFA has decided to overturn its decision that Northern Ireland players must carry British passports when going abroad.


The issue was raised with the European football authorities over the past few weeks, saying that footballers from Northern Ireland should be given the option of using either a British or an Irish passport.

Mr Ahern said that he believed that his lobbying had helped to have the resolved and added that FIFA would accept that Northern Ireland players could hold either passport and travel on these as long as the Irish Football Association (IFA) certifies the eligibility of the players involved.

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=52641


i.e. an Irish passport on it's own does not make someone eligible.

[Turlough O Carolan]

Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Surely both governments consider them citizens and that's why Article 15 applies - allowing them to represent Ireland. The players themselves would claim only one citizenship, Irish - which strangely enough would bring Article 16 into the reckoning and not allow them to play for Ireland. But if they are considered both British and Irish citizens from birth, FIFA would take that as the definitive answer, since you do not have to take out an Irish or British passport to be considered a citizen. The governments already consider it done.

[Chrisowc]

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

[Donagh]

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Surely both governments consider them citizens and that's why Article 15 applies - allowing them to represent Ireland. The players themselves would claim only one citizenship, Irish - which strangely enough would bring Article 16 into the reckoning and not allow them to play for Ireland. But if they are considered both British and Irish citizens from birth, FIFA would take that as the definitive answer, since you do not have to take out an Irish or British passport to be considered a citizen. The governments already consider it done.

Well exactly. They are citizens of both. They can't revoke their British citizenship even if they consider themselves as Irish citizens from birth and carry an Irish passport. The British govt will still consider them a citizen as will the Irish govt. Ergo they have dual citizenship. I believe this is the point mooretwin is trying to make on owc.

The truth is having seen the discussion on owc and foot.ie nobody seems any clearer on the matter and people are arguing opposite viewpoints over a couple of sentences.

[magickingdom]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right, as i said in a previous post irish nationals now live in 2 jurisdictions but big ian has been too busy smiling with martin and claiming victory then to bother his arse explaining to unionism that ni is no longer as british as finchley and his deal to save the union isnt quite what some think. the vast majority of owcers think that if your born in ni your british whether you like it or not.

3 points
1) birth in ni ENTITLES one to irish nationality - this is the law
2) irish nationality alone dose not entitle you to play for ni (though it could legally if the fai/ifa agreed)
3) fifa rules cannot legally treat one irish national different from another one on the basis of nationality alone

= art 15 stands alone. fifa cannot (and dont want to i might add) prevent irish nationals born in ni from playing for the fai

this will only be sorted when the fai pick a ni born player and the ifa then object and fifa rule (with a little help from their legal dept)

[GalwayBayBoy]

this will only be sorted when the fai pick a ni born player and the ifa then object and fifa rule (with a little help from their legal dept)

Exactly. FIFA have no great desire to get involved in what they know is a delicate situation so are fudging the issue with articles and addendums full of obfuscated language. Hoping the whole thing just goes away and sorts itself out.

Nothing will be resolved until a player from NI declares for the ROI and the IFA do their nut over it and object or a player is stopped from playing for the ROI and the FAI lodge their objection.

[Chrisowc]

I agree we are going round in circles here and I feel both sides of the argument have merit.

IMO it then comes down to 'sporting integrity'.  The irony being there is a section with this heading directly after the newly revised statutes.

Not wanting to argue for the sake of it magickingdom but I think  FIFA would prefer each of their associations to be able to pick players born within that association's territory on a level playing field without one association gaining an advantage over another.  'Sporting integrity' and all that.

[SammyG]

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

[Main Street]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

They have had that right since the time the Republics Constitution was drafted.
In real legal terms the GFA means absolutely F all in this debate.

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

The GFA  was just being used as an excuse to break the gentlemans agreement that did exist between the IFA and the FAI.
The GFA has no legal weight in this drama.

What the OWC don't get is that the IFA can only select British Nationals born in NI or other British Nationals who satisfy a certain criteria
If that British national has Irish citizenship or Polish citizenship, it is purely coincidental.

[Solomon Kane]

Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Surely both governments consider them citizens and that's why Article 15 applies - allowing them to represent Ireland. The players themselves would claim only one citizenship, Irish - which strangely enough would bring Article 16 into the reckoning and not allow them to play for Ireland. But if they are considered both British and Irish citizens from birth, FIFA would take that as the definitive answer, since you do not have to take out an Irish or British passport to be considered a citizen. The governments already consider it done.

If the ROI governments consider Northern Ireland nationalists, RCs, whatever to be citizens, should they not then allow them a vote and representation in the Dail? A postal vote at least would not be too much to ask.

Mind you, given the difficult nature if the set up of a coalition government I could imagine the mischief that 10 or so unionist TD's could get up to

It looks to me like nationalists in Northern Ireland have only partial ROI nationality which in fact appears to amount to very little in real terms. The ROI government should get off the fence over this issue. 

[magickingdom]

I agree we are going round in circles here and I feel both sides of the argument have merit.

IMO it then comes down to 'sporting integrity'.  The irony being there is a section with this heading directly after the newly revised statutes.

Not wanting to argue for the sake of it magickingdom but I think  FIFA would prefer each of their associations to be able to pick players born within that association's territory on a level playing field without one association gaining an advantage over another.  'Sporting integrity' and all that.

'sporting integrity' doesnt exist!. it may well prove to be the case tho that the fai/ifa come to some agreement on the issue, an all ireland league is going to happen in the near future simply because of the financial sense it makes and both leagues are in poor nick at the minute. for this to come about tho the fai/ifa will have to have some kind of working relationship and that will have to include putting eligibility to bed. the fai may agree not to actively pursue ni born players but legally couldnt put a blanket ban on it. its probably no more than 3 or 4 players every few years anyway and its really just the principle thats at stake.

[Turlough O Carolan]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

[magickingdom]

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

They have had that right since the time the Republics Constitution was drafted.
In real legal terms the GFA means absolutely F all in this debate.

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

The GFA  was just being used as an excuse to break the gentlemans agreement that did exist between the IFA and the FAI.
The GFA has no legal weight in this drama.

What the OWC don't get is that the IFA can only select British Nationals born in NI or other British Nationals who satisfy a certain criteria
If that British national has Irish citizenship or Polish citizenship, it is purely coincidental.

i fully agree ms but what has changed with the gfa is that the british state now legally recognises that people born in ni also have irish nationality.

[Main Street]

If the ROI governments consider Northern Ireland nationalists, RCs, whatever to be citizens, should they not then allow them a vote and representation in the Dail? A postal vote at least would not be too much to ask.

Nationality criteria is not the same as voting criteria

It looks to me like nationalists in Northern Ireland have only partial ROI nationality which in fact appears to amount to very little in real terms. The ROI government should get off the fence over this issue. 

It doesn't matter how it looks to you.
What matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15