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Messages - SammyG

#1
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 13, 2008, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 13, 2008, 09:08:08 AM
the next time I log on there's always somebody accusing me of something.

What were you "accused" of?
I'll tell you, doing nothing.

hardly a savage attack  :D :D :D

Err you accused me of supporting the protesters, because I hadn't specifically posted to condemn them. When J70 and NIFan pulled you about this, you tried to change tack.
#2
Brilliant response which totally fails to address the issue (as usual). Have you now changed your mind (for the fourth time) and decided that the issue is dual nationality? It's a bit hard to argue with somebody who changes their mind after every post.
#3
Quote from: stiffler on June 13, 2008, 09:18:35 AM


I love this site, no matter how many times I post and say that I'm not on at the minute, the next time I log on there's always somebody accusing me of something.

[/quote]

Are you on the drink Sammy? that statement makes a load of sense.  :P
[/quote]

That should have read I'm not on much at the minute.
#4
FFS main street can you please make your mind up. That's now three complete different (and contradictory) stances that you've taken, on this thread alone. Everytime it's pointed out that you're talki ng sh1te, you just reply with a totally different argument.  :o
#5
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 12, 2008, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: nifan on June 12, 2008, 03:36:25 PM
Can you point out who "they" are?

not you anyway Nifan  ;)

Was thinking of EG and Sammy specifically.
Not all Unionist posters or anything of the sort.

I love this site, no matter how many times I post and say that I'm not on at the minute, the next time I log on there's always somebody accusing me of something.

For the umpteenth time, I'm working in a customers office, so I can't get the site from work at the minute, so I can only log on now and again. It's nice that you all miss me but I'm alright really.  ;)
#6
Quote from: Main Street on June 05, 2008, 11:15:57 AMIt is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.
Make your f**king mind up. Mooretwin believes that everbody in NI has dual nationality (I don't agree with him but that's a different discussion) and therefore the dual nationality rules apply. You have been arguing that Article 15 applies, which has absoultely nothing to do with dual nationality.
#7
Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 10:18:30 PM
QuoteAnd Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality
A player whose nationality allows them to choose  to play for 2 or more associations.
e.g. British passport - 4 associations

QuoteIf their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI
NO
Article 16 is for footballers whoose nationality allows them to choose different associations.
Your scenario does not fit the terms of Article 16
On what grounds does it not fit Article 16? It is almost exactly what Article 16 is about.
Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 10:18:30 PM
QuoteUnder the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.
Irish citizens born in the north have been declaring for the Republic since the time Brian Kerr "broke" the gentlemanly deal between the IFA and the FAI.
These lads have had the automatic right to play for the Republic under the article 15.
This article has been reworded to be be even more plainly understood.

It is all a bit too frustrating that Northern Ireland is just not happening as well in the image that they think it should be.



That was prior to the 2004 rule change. Not a single player has declared and played since.
#8
Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 09:26:23 PMbtw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either
Try to keep up. Gibson applied under the pre-2004 rules and is therefore elligible. Everybody (even me!!) has accepted this long ago and moved on.
#9
Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:49:51 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 07:32:13 PM
Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:23:39 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).
100% correct
Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:49:51 PM
However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.
The issue is that they are not dual nationals, they are either RoI citizens or British citizens not both, so article 15 doesn't apply
#10
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 07:39:02 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 07:02:29 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:28:07 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 
Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.



Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.
So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

Sammy the British government claims an estimated 800,000 Irish citizens born in the 26 counties (before 1949) as British citizens. This certainly doesn't mean those people have dual nationality.

Err that's exactly the point I'm making (only with the Dail obviously). They don't have dual nationality.
#11
Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:29:54 PMWhat matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Are you actually insane or just on a wind-up? FIFA have never said anything of the sort.
#12
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:28:07 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 
Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.



Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.
So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?
#13
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 04, 2008, 05:55:15 PM
Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

If born in the north you are entitled to one of the following:

1. Irish nationality
2. British nationality
3. Irish and British nationality (note there is no northern Irish nationality)
That is my understanding but some people are arguing that we all get option 3 and don't have a choice in the matter.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 
Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.
Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 2 or 3 then you are subject to the other articles. 
Correct
#14
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 04, 2008, 05:55:15 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 04:53:13 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 04:44:54 PMA Nothern Ireland  footballer
You have Two nationalities by birth, like it or not.
One nationality,  the UK one  allows you to play for NI
The Irish nationality allows you to  play for the Republic.


His Irish nationality entitles him to jack shit in Northern Ireland.
He can play for NI because he is an UK national.
He is a UK national by birth.
He can use his Irish passport for ID purposes.
Does nobody know the constitutional status of NI ?

The player can choose two associations because he has 2 nationalities not because he has one nationality.
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.

Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.
That's the million dollar question. I believe that we have an entitlement to British or RoI citizenship or both, others believe that you automatically have dual citizenship and have no choice in the matter. Depending on which of those is correct, different FIFA regs apply.

The one thing that is 100% clear is that Main Street was talking bollix, as the article he quoted doesn't apply to either case.
#15
Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 04:58:51 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 04:53:13 PM
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.
;D
The person hasn't been born who could discuss this topic with you.
A most unique example of a mind locked shut.
Go back to your owc cave and get some lessons from that Moore lad


Again a fantastic response. Nothing locked about my mind , thanks all the same for your concern.