Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

[seafoid]

We don't know how the 4x4 is going to work.
There has been a lot of  foostering around with championship structures over the last few years.

[seafoid]

Without the provincials, League results are definitive. So clare would be playing TC. If Cavan beat Armagh on Sunday and win their semifinal against either Down or Donegal they can qualify for the Sam Maguire. This is more interesting than allocating Cavan to the TC from the start.

[rrhf]

Whilst I am not yet a fan of the system as it will devalue the provincials hugely.  It is probably worth trying.  An upside will be the dominance of Ulster teams over the next quarter century. 

[Hound]

A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.

Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.

At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.

But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.

[Blowitupref]

Jim McGuinness

For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.

There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.

And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.

From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don’t agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what’s the alternative? We don’t have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn’t make sense for the development of the game.

The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it’s everything on the line, it’s no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.

So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it’s gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.

if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition

That basically makes them like the pre-season McKenna,FBD competitions then and 2nd string sides would be played, wouldn't get 15 to 20k turning up to view those games, be little or no intensity in those matches either.

[yellowcard]

Jim McGuinness

For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.

There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.

And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.

From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.

The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.

So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.

There is a blatant contradiction in what McGuinness has written. There blatantly was a tomorrow in last weekends games particularly for the big teams whose main focus is trying to compete to win Sam Maguire. I think Mayo quite understandably invested more into trying to win the National League final than they did into the Roscommon match. Armagh meanwhile tried out a few fresh players against Antrim that they didn't use during the League campaign. He is indulging in a little bit of nostalgia which is understandable but he is in denial if he thinks that the provincial championships haven't lost a bit of their lustre.

In Clare's case it meant a lot since it has gave them a great chance of competing in the Sam Maguire cup while in Roscommons case it meant a lot since it gives them a realistic chance of winning silverware in Connacht and some bragging rights over their neighbours.   

[rrhf]

A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.

Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.

At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.

But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.

Fair and well made point also.

[Eire90]

Jim McGuinness

For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.

There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.

And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.

From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.

The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.

So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.

if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition

That basically makes them like the pre-season McKenna,FBD competitions then and 2nd string sides would be played, wouldn't get 15 to 20k turning up to view those games, be little or no intensity in those matches either.

if the provincials cant be a success as stand alone competitions   does that not mean they are not as good as made out to be and its the all ireland propping them up.

The european championships are not linked to world cup but its a serious and prestigious tournament.

[Eire90]

I think having joint provincial championships to replace the preseason competitions might be better  like  Connaught-Ulster and Leinster-Munster you could even rotate the pairings each year if you want.

[Blowitupref]

There is a blatant contradiction in what McGuinness has written. There blatantly was a tomorrow in last weekends games particularly for the big teams whose main focus is trying to compete to win Sam Maguire. I think Mayo quite understandably invested more into trying to win the National League final than they did into the Roscommon match. Armagh meanwhile tried out a few fresh players against Antrim that they didn't use during the League campaign. He is indulging in a little bit of nostalgia which is understandable but he is in denial if he thinks that the provincial championships haven't lost a bit of their lustre.

In Clare's case it meant a lot since it has gave them a great chance of competing in the Sam Maguire cup while in Roscommons case it meant a lot since it gives them a realistic chance of winning silverware in Connacht and some bragging rights over their neighbours.   

I think his point was teams focused on the now than looking to tomorrow. Was Mayo's performance in the league final much better than it was against Roscommon? Mayo's man of the match was their goalkeeper against Galway.

[Owenmoresider]

Jim McGuinness

For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.

There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.

And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.

From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.

The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.

So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.

if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition

That basically makes them like the pre-season McKenna,FBD competitions then and 2nd string sides would be played, wouldn't get 15 to 20k turning up to view those games, be little or no intensity in those matches either.

if the provincials cant be a success as stand alone competitions   does that not mean they are not as good as made out to be and its the all ireland propping them up.

The european championships are not linked to world cup but its a serious and prestigious tournament.

It isn't no, but then the Nations League is linked into the Euros, and progress in the NL has benefits towards potential Euros qualification.

And continuing the football theme, if the Europa League is such a prestigious competition of itself, then why did UEFA in recent years award the winners with automatic qualification to the Champions League for the following season?

[onefineday]

A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.

Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.

At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.

But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.

If you're already assured of an all Ireland berth and are in a competitive province (ulster or Connacht) then progressing in your province will likely disadvantage you. An early round loss, like mayo achieved last week leaves them with a chance to recuperate after a successful league, work on fitness, getting healthy and gameplans ahead of the championship which starts in May. For a team with serious all Ireland aspirations that is much more advantageous than another tough game v serious opponents followed by a one sided final for another Connacht medal with the all Ireland to come a fortnight later. The ridiculously condensed season makes provincial success an indulgent luxury that makes no sense for many of the genuine all Ireland contenders.

[Captain Obvious]

A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.

Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.

At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.

But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.

If you're already assured of an all Ireland berth and are in a competitive province (ulster or Connacht) then progressing in your province will likely disadvantage you. An early round loss, like mayo achieved last week leaves them with a chance to recuperate after a successful league, work on fitness, getting healthy and gameplans ahead of the championship which starts in May. For a team with serious all Ireland aspirations that is much more advantageous than another tough game v serious opponents followed by a one sided final for another Connacht medal with the all Ireland to come a fortnight later. The ridiculously condensed season makes provincial success an indulgent luxury that makes no sense for many of the genuine all Ireland contenders.

It's not that condensed if you keep winning as there will be two weeks breaks here and there, more than enough for recovery time. Six/seven weeks is only good if you happen to have a load of injuries and hope most are back by the end of May and Mayo seemed to be at championship fitness already during the league.

I think the genuine all Ireland contenders would be looking to be 1st seed in their group, winning the opening two games and more or less have secured last 8 spot.  They won't want preliminary quarter final tie as then it will be more condensed and up against a rested Quarter final opponent.

[ONeill]

I'm of the same opinion as OFD.

If you have genuine aspirations of winning the AI, unless you're in Munster, there's no real advantage of progressing in your province. You'll have 3 games in your group, probably only needing 1 win to progress to at least the premlin quarters.

It'll be interesting to watch how this is played out. The likes of Armagh or Roscommon would be delighted at a provincial title so you can't diminish it in that way.

The difference between this and the old backdoor route is that if you exited your championship, you were in a last chance saloon situation which was never great. Now you've the cushion of 3 games to play.

[imtommygunn]

Tbh I think there are a few teams over the years in Ulster and Connacht who won titles they wouldn't have if it was straight knockout. They are still very important but of lesser importance to the genuine AI contenders.