Growing Clash of civilisations

[Uladh]

Surveying the recent news and particularly the analysis of the reasoning behind Muslim attacks on western countries, it appears that this is expanding into something incomprehensible in the realm of global warfare.

I was thinking, how long is it going to be before an extreme (independent or covertedly state backed) christian grouping brings jihad back on muslim countries?

Will the first day a bomb wipes out a mosque or shopping mall in saudi arabia signal all out mayhem for us all?

[SammyG]

Surveying the recent news and particularly the analysis of the reasoning behind Muslim attacks on western countries, it appears that this is expanding into something incomprehensible in the realm of global warfare.

I was thinking, how long is it going to be before an extreme (independent or covertedly state backed) christian grouping brings jihad back on muslim countries?

Will the first day a bomb wipes out a mosque or shopping mall in saudi arabia signal all out mayhem for us all?

An extreme Christian grouping has already unleashed a jihad against Muslim countries. It's lead by George W Bush and Tony Blair and has been bombing mosques and shopping malls for a while. And before that it spent it's money encouraging Israel to do it.

[Donagh]

An extreme Christian grouping has already unleashed a jihad against Muslim countries. It's lead by George W Bush and Tony Blair and has been bombing mosques and shopping malls for a while. And before that it spent it's money encouraging Israel to do it.

Indeed

[Uladh]

Obviously the current "war on terror" insulates the ordinary man in the street from direct responsibilty as the overwhelming masses oppose it. the problem is, there is no reasonable candidate in any election in this country or the uk which can be voted for in an effort to cange things. obviously if people ernestly wished for a change there'd be an uprising and for the divil to prosper all it takes is for good men to sit on their hole, etc.

The point i'm making is that if guerrilla  attacks on western countries persist, its inevitable that there will be a reaction among the masses, in whatever form. perhaps the aim of these jihadis is to wake our people into forcing a change in foreign policy, but they may instigate someting far worse.

[Evil Genius]

Surveying the recent news and particularly the analysis of the reasoning behind Muslim attacks on western countries, it appears that this is expanding into something incomprehensible in the realm of global warfare.

I was thinking, how long is it going to be before an extreme (independent or covertedly state backed) christian grouping brings jihad back on muslim countries?

Will the first day a bomb wipes out a mosque or shopping mall in saudi arabia signal all out mayhem for us all?

An extreme Christian grouping has already unleashed a jihad against Muslim countries. It's lead by George W Bush and Tony Blair and has been bombing mosques and shopping malls for a while. And before that it spent it's money encouraging Israel to do it.

I am no supporter of the invasion of Iraq (far from it), but that is a very trite analysis, if I may say so.

Whilst there is undoubtedly a fundamentalist Christian faction entrenched in the White House, it is nonsense (imo) to overestimate their influence. Otherwise, why are Muslims in the USA/UK considerably freer to practice their own faith than they would be even in many Muslim countries? Why would the West have intervened in Kosovo on behalf of the Muslim population, against the (Orthodox-inspired) Serbs? Or why is the West ignoring the suffering of millions, including Christians and Animists, at the hands of Arab/Musim groups in Darfur and the Sudan?
Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

Besides, we were always told it was Oil*, not Religion, which caused Bush and Blair to set out on their little adventure...

P.S. I heard a good one the other day (forgive me if it's old): Apparantly War is God's way of teaching Geography to Americans! 

* - Equally trite, imo.

[SammyG]

Surveying the recent news and particularly the analysis of the reasoning behind Muslim attacks on western countries, it appears that this is expanding into something incomprehensible in the realm of global warfare.

I was thinking, how long is it going to be before an extreme (independent or covertedly state backed) christian grouping brings jihad back on muslim countries?

Will the first day a bomb wipes out a mosque or shopping mall in saudi arabia signal all out mayhem for us all?

An extreme Christian grouping has already unleashed a jihad against Muslim countries. It's lead by George W Bush and Tony Blair and has been bombing mosques and shopping malls for a while. And before that it spent it's money encouraging Israel to do it.

I am no supporter of the invasion of Iraq (far from it), but that is a very trite analysis, if I may say so.

Whilst there is undoubtedly a fundamentalist Christian faction entrenched in the White House, it is nonsense (imo) to overestimate their influence. Otherwise, why are Muslims in the USA/UK considerably freer to practice their own faith than they would be even in many Muslim countries? Why would the West have intervened in Kosovo on behalf of the Muslim population, against the (Orthodox-inspired) Serbs? Or why is the West ignoring the suffering of millions, including Christians and Animists, at the hands of Arab/Musim groups in Darfur and the Sudan?
Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

Besides, we were always told it was Oil*, not Religion, which caused Bush and Blair to set out on their little adventure...

P.S. I heard a good one the other day (forgive me if it's old): Apparantly War is God's way of teaching Geography to Americans! 

* - Equally trite, imo.

I was trying to sum up the history of the last 10-15 years in one sentence, so apologies if it came across as trite. Obviously there is more to it than a straight relegious war but anti-Muslim sentiment was certainly a major contributor.

[Chrisowc]

Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

This is what I can't understand.  How can these insurgants (sp??) carry out revenge attacks for deaths on Muslims by actually killing other Muslims?

[An Fear Rua]

Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

This is what I can't understand.  How can these insurgants (sp??) carry out revenge attacks for deaths on Muslims by actually killing other Muslims?

I blame the Hitler youth, East Tyrone Brigade

[Evil Genius]

I was trying to sum up the history of the last 10-15 years in one sentence, so apologies if it came across as trite. Obviously there is more to it than a straight relegious war but anti-Muslim sentiment was certainly a major contributor.

Perhaps we must disgree over just how "major" it was, but fair enough.

Anyhow, on the subject generally, I was reminded the other day that when (the famously secularist, anti-Al Qaida) Saddam originally invaded Kuwait, Osama Bin-Laiden made an offer to his compatriots in the Saudi Government to use his forces, fresh from having helped evict the Soviets from Afghanistan, to get Saddam out of Kuwait.
When the Saudis turned him down, he turned his wrath on them for preferring instead to invite the Western "Infidels" into the land of the Prophet, from which to base their war to liberate Kuwait.

The whole Middle East is really a whole number of conflicts, which is why (imo) the Yanks got involved in Iraq i.e. working from a whole variety of motives and through a mixture of naivety, ignorance, arrogance and addiction to John Wayne movies, they seriously underestimated the complexity of the whole situation.

As for Tony Blair, he doesn't even have that excuse...

[believebelive]

The 'War on Terror' always makes me laugh. How we can have a war on an emotion I will never know, might as well be a 'war on fear'. Laughable.

But getting on to this clash of civilisations I really think that we have to take a step back and look at the whole picture. To do that  you have to look at the history of the region. Russia and the US (With the help from the UK) has used the middle east like pawns in a chess match.
Russia with their infiltration into Afghanistan and America with its over throwing of the democratic Mossadeq government in Iran in the early 50's are just two examples of how these super poweres manipulated countries in this region to enhance their own tactical position, with it must be said absolutely no regard for the people living in these countries who were of course to suffer greatly by these early 'regime changes.'
In America's case this meddeling has continued ever since. Iran/Iraq war is an example of this. The problem is much of the middle east is based on the Arab tribe politics. This has been there way of life for nearly 2000 years, long b4 Islam was invented. This way of life coupled with the split in Islam bewtween fundamentalism and those who favoured a capitlist type future made for the perfect forming of two factions within the one religion who at times loathed each other.
Out of this it was no surprise that extreme organisations sprouted up who wanted to see death to the West. These were sporadic before 9/11. After that terrible day however the US and the UK only succeeded in nourishing what was very fertile ground. Death is horrific but it was the scale of death that occurred in 9/11 that created the response from America and in some ways it is totally understandable. But looking at it what was so different about 9/11 than other terrorist attacks carried out by Al Quada? They had used suicide tactics before and they had targeted examples of Western power. The only ifference being that this occurred on American soil and the death toil was huge.
But there is no doubting that the subsequent invasions of Afganistan and Iraq has allowed extremists groups swell thier ranks and if anything it has added to the glamour of becoming a suicide bomber.
The rise in the number of suicide bombers post 9/11 has been sharp to say the least compared with prior to 9/11.

Will a Christian group start bombing in the middle east? I doubt it. A different type of terroist exists in the Western World but there is every possibility that sporadic attacks could occur against innocent Muslim's in Western countires.

Muslims carry out attacks on other Muslims because as well as politically differences there is real religious differences as well. Sunni and Shia are subtle in their religious difference but it can be enough to cause hostility and conflict and to think the split happened all because they would not let Fatima take over! Women getting above their station and all that.   

[Uladh]

Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

This is what I can't understand.  How can these insurgants (sp??) carry out revenge attacks for deaths on Muslims by actually killing other Muslims?

You are falling for the PR line that Iraq is somehow linked with the Al Q assault on western society. it is not.

There is civil war in iraq now because every faction sees the void which the invasion by the coalition of the willing has left in the country. noone is in charge there and they are all jockeying for position when the invaders pull out.

Those that the PR machine call insurgents and terrorists are extreme factions in iraq who see their opportunity to use violence to grasp a bit of power.

[Orior]

Phew!

I thought this thread was going to be about club football in Armagh.

[Evil Genius]

Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

This is what I can't understand.  How can these insurgants (sp??) carry out revenge attacks for deaths on Muslims by actually killing other Muslims?

These Muslims aren't carrying out these attacks in "revenge" for US/UK air raids etc - it has gone far beyond that. Essentially, as a nation, Iraq is/was a somewhat artificial construct of the West, attempting to unite, as it did, a complex mixture of Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds, Tribes, numerous  Minorities etc.

Whilst Saddam was in charge, he maintained a form of unity by repression, cunning, oil wealth and secularism. Since he was overthrown and the Coalition failed miserably to replace the old system with an effective alternative (whether democratic or repressive), the country is breaking down into total anarchy.

In such circumstances, evil extremists of every stripe are moving in to fight over the remains. To be honest, as disturbing, horrific and baffling as it all seems to us, I don't feel Irish people should ever get too "superior" about this (not saying you are, btw). That is, we demonstrated exactly the same capacity for (so-called) "religious" strife as demonstrated in Iraq (just replace "Christians" for "Muslims").

Indeed, it could be argued that we were just luckier in not being so numerous, plus lacking oil and greedy neighbours intent on sizing their share etc. Above all, we had 30,000 British soldiers available to "hold the ring" whilst the restless natives eventually came to the conclusion that their sordid, little campaigns of inter-communal strife were utterly futile, and it might be better to try to get along...

[Bogball XV]

You are falling for the PR line that Iraq is somehow linked with the Al Q assault on western society. it is not.

They exist then??

This clash of cultures has been going on for nigh on 1300 years now - at times islam was in the ascendency, other times it's been christianity (at virtually all times, the jews have been getting it from whoever has been in ascendency).
There have been many, many attrocities happened on the other side over the years and as we (in common with many other european peoples) know, it's not hard to whip up a frenzy in impressionable people (feck it, in any of us), by referring to a few of those attrocities, especially when they've been visited on us because of our religion/nationality/county team (martyrs are great recruiters) as we know, once that frenzy is built up, people do things which the rest of us find reprehensible and irrational, but to that person it's the most logical thing in the world.
On this topic, I imagine that many posters at worst tacitly supported the IRA's campaign in England, yet, (and this is from talking to people more than from what I read on here) think that islamic bombings are totally unjustified and would be in favour of 'stringing the bastards up' or similar punishment (including kicking the f**kers to death - re the glasgow lads last week).
I'm not saying that I think their actions are justified in any way, just that there is a reason behind them.

[Orior]

Above all, who is it that is actually setting off no-warning car bombs in Iraq on a daily basis, or forming the death squads who are slaying thousands in revenge? (Think Iraqi Muslim Sunnis for the former and Iraqi Musim Shiites for the latter).

This is what I can't understand.  How can these insurgants (sp??) carry out revenge attacks for deaths on Muslims by actually killing other Muslims?

These Muslims aren't carrying out these attacks in "revenge" for US/UK air raids etc - it has gone far beyond that. Essentially, as a nation, Iraq is/was a somewhat artificial construct of the West, attempting to unite, as it did, a complex mixture of Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds, Tribes, numerous  Minorities etc.

Whilst Saddam was in charge, he maintained a form of unity by repression, cunning, oil wealth and secularism. Since he was overthrown and the Coalition failed miserably to replace the old system with an effective alternative (whether democratic or repressive), the country is breaking down into total anarchy.

In such circumstances, evil extremists of every stripe are moving in to fight over the remains. To be honest, as disturbing, horrific and baffling as it all seems to us, I don't feel Irish people should ever get too "superior" about this (not saying you are, btw). That is, we demonstrated exactly the same capacity for (so-called) "religious" strife as demonstrated in Iraq (just replace "Christians" for "Muslims").

Indeed, it could be argued that we were just luckier in not being so numerous, plus lacking oil and greedy neighbours intent on sizing their share etc. Above all, we had 30,000 British soldiers available to "hold the ring" whilst the restless natives eventually came to the conclusion that their sordid, little campaigns of inter-communal strife were utterly futile, and it might be better to try to get along...

Geez. Why would you want to ever consider yourself british EG? From what you have written above its obvious the british are cnuts. Get out now and save yourself.