A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[BennyCake]

It would of course help in Nationalist parties had some vision as to what the new All Ireland entity would look like, how it would work and what proposals to accommodate those 6 Cos residents who consider themselves British.

Did unionist parties have any vision towards accommodating those in the 6 counties who considered themselves Irish, when partition happened? Or even now, nearly 100 years later?

No but two wrongs don't make a right, they should be accommodated (within reasonable boundaries) when a 32 county republic is established.

I trust Donald,  BennyCake and Valkeep will be kept well away from the campaign for a UI

I'm not advocating unionists be treated horrendously, as Catholics were since partition. But we all know that there will be quite a few nationalists who will "go to town" if a UI was declared. They would do exactly what the unionists have done since partition, namely shoving everything Irish down unionists throats. And that's no way to begin as an independent ireland.

However, I don't see a UI happening so it's all irrelevant.

[JPGJOHNNYG]

It would of course help in Nationalist parties had some vision as to what the new All Ireland entity would look like, how it would work and what proposals to accommodate those 6 Cos residents who consider themselves British.

Did unionist parties have any vision towards accommodating those in the 6 counties who considered themselves Irish, when partition happened? Or even now, nearly 100 years later?

No but two wrongs don't make a right, they should be accommodated (within reasonable boundaries) when a 32 county republic is established.

I trust Donald,  BennyCake and Valkeep will be kept well away from the campaign for a UI

I'm not advocating unionists be treated horrendously, as Catholics were since partition. But we all know that there will be quite a few nationalists who will "go to town" if a UI was declared. They would do exactly what the unionists have done since partition, namely shoving everything Irish down unionists throats. And that's no way to begin as an independent ireland.

However, I don't see a UI happening so it's all irrelevant.

Zero chance a Dublin government will bend over backwards to appease the unionists Christ nationalists north probably will get a better deal with the DUP at the mo lol

[armaghniac]

Zero chance a Dublin government will bend over backwards to appease the unionists Christ nationalists north probably will get a better deal with the DUP at the mo lol

The problem is that the DUP types will only come up with whines and gripes and British this, British that. You need someone to make sure that unionists and the 6 counties were fully able to take part in things in a UI, not furthering around with flegs.

[Eamonnca1]

It would of course help in Nationalist parties had some vision as to what the new All Ireland entity would look like, how it would work and what proposals to accommodate those 6 Cos residents who consider themselves British.

Did unionist parties have any vision towards accommodating those in the 6 counties who considered themselves Irish, when partition happened? Or even now, nearly 100 years later?

From Star Trek, Deep Space Nine (the most underrated Trek, BTW):

BASHIR: Whose side are you on?
SISKO: There's a difference between interrogation and torture.
BASHIR: The Alliance never made that distinction.
SISKO: But you should.

[foxcommander]

It would of course help in Nationalist parties had some vision as to what the new All Ireland entity would look like, how it would work and what proposals to accommodate those 6 Cos residents who consider themselves British.

Did unionist parties have any vision towards accommodating those in the 6 counties who considered themselves Irish, when partition happened? Or even now, nearly 100 years later?

From Star Trek, Deep Space Nine (the most underrated Trek, BTW):

BASHIR: Whose side are you on?
SISKO: There's a difference between interrogation and torture.
BASHIR: The Alliance never made that distinction.
SISKO: But you should.

Awesome Dr. Spock

[BennyCake]

Zero chance a Dublin government will bend over backwards to appease the unionists Christ nationalists north probably will get a better deal with the DUP at the mo lol

The problem is that the DUP types will only come up with whines and gripes and British this, British that. You need someone to make sure that unionists and the 6 counties were fully able to take part in things in a UI, not furthering around with flegs.

But flegs is all they're interested in or identify with. Whenever they think their identity/culture is under threat, they react, eg. Fleg protest, twaddell, Drumcree etc. I can't imagine they'll take a UI lying down.

[heganboy]

Oh dear. Why does anything think that Dublin wants the intractable problems of the North (parade disputes,political impasses,sectarianism etc),not even mentioning the substantial cost of taking the region on,if things were completely normal.I would say every leader in the South,from De Valera onwards,was on his knees every night thanking God it was the Brits who have to sort this out.

Add to this the utter impossibility of ever convincing unionists,regardless of how many sound arguments are presented,of the merits of a United Ireland,then realise this thread is a waste of cyberspace

Tony every time you post on this topic and many others you take your undereducated opinions with no basis in fact, no evidence, no data, no sense and no clue and attempt to pass this prejudices as "facts".
SPCA churned out many opinionated wankers in their day, but most of them have the grace to base those opinions upon something or indeed anything. You however do not, and have not, and moreover, will not.
Contribute something useful to the thread, float an idea perhaps, maybe even one of your own some day instead of trotted out bull shit you thought made sense when you heard it on Radio Ulster's phone in.
I have to say though, you are better placed than most to pontificate on wastes of cyberspace.

[screenexile]

It would of course help in Nationalist parties had some vision as to what the new All Ireland entity would look like, how it would work and what proposals to accommodate those 6 Cos residents who consider themselves British.

Did unionist parties have any vision towards accommodating those in the 6 counties who considered themselves Irish, when partition happened? Or even now, nearly 100 years later?

From Star Trek, Deep Space Nine (the most underrated Trek, BTW):

BASHIR: Whose side are you on?
SISKO: There's a difference between interrogation and torture.
BASHIR: The Alliance never made that distinction.
SISKO: But you should.

Awesome Dr. Spock

Spock isn't a doctor...

[Owen Brannigan]

It would of course help in Nationalist parties had some vision as to what the new All Ireland entity would look like, how it would work and what proposals to accommodate those 6 Cos residents who consider themselves British.

Did unionist parties have any vision towards accommodating those in the 6 counties who considered themselves Irish, when partition happened? Or even now, nearly 100 years later?

From Star Trek, Deep Space Nine (the most underrated Trek, BTW):

BASHIR: Whose side are you on?
SISKO: There's a difference between interrogation and torture.
BASHIR: The Alliance never made that distinction.
SISKO: But you should.

Awesome Dr. Spock

Dr Spock was the author of The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care (1946) which sold 50 million by the time of Spock's death in 1998 and has been translated into 39 languages.  He had nothing to do with Star Trek on TV or movies.

[Owen Brannigan]

Reading on this thread makes me sick. We have actual GAA "supporters" outlining reasons why we shouldn't have a united ireland.when said aim of organisation was to promote a nationalist identity. Alls wring is that too many people live off far cheques from retiring from uk govt jobs. Turned a lot of you into what African-Americans call "Uncle Tom's" . I'd like to name all you naysayers "Uncle Mountbatten's" . Makes me sick to my stomach. We have the constant kicking of SF, and how they're not a political party. Well I can think of 20 SF members who literally laid their lives on the line for Catholics in the North so we could have a fair shot at life, name me a politician from either FF or FG who can say the same. You will all rue the day you didn't support SF when they're in the Dail and you're on the outside looking in.

For all of my adult life I have had 'a fair shot at life'.  I have availed of free healthcare, free primary and secondary education and a funded third level education to primary degree level.  I have worked for 34 years and make a considerable contribution to society through always paying income tax and national insurance contributions and through my work I ensured that a considerable number of 'Catholics in the North had a fair shot at life'.  I have never relied on SF for any of these privileges that many across the world will never have and I never felt inclined to support any campaign of violence that has caused nothing but misery and grief for those who were victims of the violence from 1967 to date. So, SF and their associates have never done anything that has improved my life nor the public service that I provided for 34 years. I could give you plenty instances where they have made life worse for Catholic people over the last 40 years and particularly since they were given the opportunity to run the government of this region.

The people of Ireland votes overwhelmingly in 1998 to allow 6 counties to be governed by the UK government until a majority of the people in that region decided otherwise and the people of the 26 counties decided that they wanted the 6 counties to join them.  This vote denies any group continuing with or resorting to a campaign of violence any form of legitimacy to base their campaign on previous votes or elections or previous campaigns. 

A vote for a UI may occur within the next ten years and it will be decided by those in the middle ground in N.Ireland who you and your fellow travellers may term as "Uncle Tom's" or "Uncle Mountbatten's" from the security you seek in your Internet keyboard warrior anonymity and additional username. 

So, instead of claiming the moral and political high ground from the tiny mound where you have parked your tanks to assault the middle ground you and your mirror images within the DUP would be better considering how you can persuade the middle ground to shift in your directions.  As others have stated, the middle ground of the population between SF and DUP will decide the destiny of this tiny region when a border poll is eventually held. 

There are more middle ground potential voters in the non-voting section of our electorate than will be persuaded to turn out for SF or DUP in the sectarian head count that exists in elections in N.Ireland.  This section of the population have become disillusioned with sectarian politics as SF and DUP have dominated the elected Assembly.  Many live in areas where their preferred candidate will never be elected and they have stopped voting or see no point in casting a vote for a losing candidate.  Both DUP and SF in the last year have virtually maxed out their voting bases in the last assembly and Westminster elections.  SDLP, UUP, APNI and GP are unable to motivate former voters to come back to the ballot box and new voters to come out to vote because they are in decline and cannot as individual groupings hope to over turn the power block of DUP and SF.  SDLP, UUP and APNI carry too much baggage of the past despite SDLP and UUP being responsible for delivering the GFA for the eventual benefit of SF/DUP.  However, you can be sure that a border poll will be enough to motivate these people to make a return possibly for the first time since the GFA referendum in 1998.

[heganboy]

Owen,
Great post, well made points, and a position that is ignored or unreached by SF. I have a different view and a different Outlook for the future, but I thoroughly respect that position and the logic behind it.

I'd love to hear what you would see as key issues that would sway your opinion one way or another in a UI vote. I firmly agree with the view often stated here that just a UI will not sway the voters.

One thing I heard recently and would be interested in hearing your views on, was in the event of any change in the situation in the north that both communities would seek guarantees from the EU. The poi t was made that whatever was on the table or committed to by politicians was not credible, and the trust factor of the middle ground was so low that neither Dublin nor Westminster would commit or deliver on promises made.

[vallankumous]

For all of my adult life I have had 'a fair shot at life'.  I have availed of free healthcare, free primary and secondary education and a funded third level education to primary degree level.  I have worked for 34 years and make a considerable contribution to society through always paying income tax and national insurance contributions and through my work I ensured that a considerable number of 'Catholics in the North had a fair shot at life'.  I have never relied on SF for any of these privileges that many across the world will never have and I never felt inclined to support any campaign of violence that has caused nothing but misery and grief for those who were victims of the violence from 1967 to date. So, SF and their associates have never done anything that has improved my life nor the public service that I provided for 34 years. I could give you plenty instances where they have made life worse for Catholic people over the last 40 years and particularly since they were given the opportunity to run the government of this region.

The people of Ireland votes overwhelmingly in 1998 to allow 6 counties to be governed by the UK government until a majority of the people in that region decided otherwise and the people of the 26 counties decided that they wanted the 6 counties to join them.  This vote denies any group continuing with or resorting to a campaign of violence any form of legitimacy to base their campaign on previous votes or elections or previous campaigns. 

A vote for a UI may occur within the next ten years and it will be decided by those in the middle ground in N.Ireland who you and your fellow travellers may term as "Uncle Tom's" or "Uncle Mountbatten's" from the security you seek in your Internet keyboard warrior anonymity and additional username. 

So, instead of claiming the moral and political high ground from the tiny mound where you have parked your tanks to assault the middle ground you and your mirror images within the DUP would be better considering how you can persuade the middle ground to shift in your directions.  As others have stated, the middle ground of the population between SF and DUP will decide the destiny of this tiny region when a border poll is eventually held. 

There are more middle ground potential voters in the non-voting section of our electorate than will be persuaded to turn out for SF or DUP in the sectarian head count that exists in elections in N.Ireland.  This section of the population have become disillusioned with sectarian politics as SF and DUP have dominated the elected Assembly.  Many live in areas where their preferred candidate will never be elected and they have stopped voting or see no point in casting a vote for a losing candidate.  Both DUP and SF in the last year have virtually maxed out their voting bases in the last assembly and Westminster elections.  SDLP, UUP, APNI and GP are unable to motivate former voters to come back to the ballot box and new voters to come out to vote because they are in decline and cannot as individual groupings hope to over turn the power block of DUP and SF.  SDLP, UUP and APNI carry too much baggage of the past despite SDLP and UUP being responsible for delivering the GFA for the eventual benefit of SF/DUP.  However, you can be sure that a border poll will be enough to motivate these people to make a return possibly for the first time since the GFA referendum in 1998.

I think your 34 years in public service is probably the exception more than the rule. I'm happy for you but it may mean that exception forming your view, means you are not the middle ground. The middle ground are the SF and DUP voters. This might not sit well as I still hear them referred to the two extremes. Neither are extreme in the box that is the north but they form the middle of opinion in the north. They are a result of it.
When we are in a minority of opinion we will always claim to be a silent minority. There is nothing but the four walls we live in with people of the same experience than us to support that view. If I ask my family and friends they will tend to have the same view as me but that has no impact on reality. If I live in a house who are environmentally aware and it is a topic I like to discuss I will create a false sense of it's wider support. I will tell people that everyone I know is voting for the greens and actually believe it myself. Then there will be a poll and I'll tell everyone the polls are wrong.

A point that is flirted with often here but soon forgot is that the UI issue is not a SF or DUP issue. It is an Irish issue, the oldest Irish issue. It doesn't go away and there is nobody without an opinion. There is also no generation that has held the same opinion. As with all things of this size in terms of politics, it is not your or my demographic that will determine the majority view and result. It is the 30somethings who are old enough to be in the thick of life but young enough not to be fatigued by it.

It is the future generation that can look at this with no baggage, and a clear and stable present. There will be a logical debate at some time. I know that my generation can not win that debate now regardless of how right we might be. The debate now is still too emotional. However, as long as the debate continues it strengthens the possibility that a decision will eventually be made. It's when the debate stops it's truly lost.

[trileacman]

Reading on this thread makes me sick. We have actual GAA "supporters" outlining reasons why we shouldn't have a united ireland.when said aim of organisation was to promote a nationalist identity. Alls wring is that too many people live off far cheques from retiring from uk govt jobs. Turned a lot of you into what African-Americans call "Uncle Tom's" . I'd like to name all you naysayers "Uncle Mountbatten's" . Makes me sick to my stomach. We have the constant kicking of SF, and how they're not a political party. Well I can think of 20 SF members who literally laid their lives on the line for Catholics in the North so we could have a fair shot at life, name me a politician from either FF or FG who can say the same. You will all rue the day you didn't support SF when they're in the Dail and you're on the outside looking in.

For all of my adult life I have had 'a fair shot at life'.  I have availed of free healthcare, free primary and secondary education and a funded third level education to primary degree level.  I have worked for 34 years and make a considerable contribution to society through always paying income tax and national insurance contributions and through my work I ensured that a considerable number of 'Catholics in the North had a fair shot at life'.  I have never relied on SF for any of these privileges that many across the world will never have and I never felt inclined to support any campaign of violence that has caused nothing but misery and grief for those who were victims of the violence from 1967 to date. So, SF and their associates have never done anything that has improved my life nor the public service that I provided for 34 years. I could give you plenty instances where they have made life worse for Catholic people over the last 40 years and particularly since they were given the opportunity to run the government of this region.

The people of Ireland votes overwhelmingly in 1998 to allow 6 counties to be governed by the UK government until a majority of the people in that region decided otherwise and the people of the 26 counties decided that they wanted the 6 counties to join them.  This vote denies any group continuing with or resorting to a campaign of violence any form of legitimacy to base their campaign on previous votes or elections or previous campaigns. 

A vote for a UI may occur within the next ten years and it will be decided by those in the middle ground in N.Ireland who you and your fellow travellers may term as "Uncle Tom's" or "Uncle Mountbatten's" from the security you seek in your Internet keyboard warrior anonymity and additional username. 

So, instead of claiming the moral and political high ground from the tiny mound where you have parked your tanks to assault the middle ground you and your mirror images within the DUP would be better considering how you can persuade the middle ground to shift in your directions.  As others have stated, the middle ground of the population between SF and DUP will decide the destiny of this tiny region when a border poll is eventually held. 

There are more middle ground potential voters in the non-voting section of our electorate than will be persuaded to turn out for SF or DUP in the sectarian head count that exists in elections in N.Ireland.  This section of the population have become disillusioned with sectarian politics as SF and DUP have dominated the elected Assembly.  Many live in areas where their preferred candidate will never be elected and they have stopped voting or see no point in casting a vote for a losing candidate.  Both DUP and SF in the last year have virtually maxed out their voting bases in the last assembly and Westminster elections.  SDLP, UUP, APNI and GP are unable to motivate former voters to come back to the ballot box and new voters to come out to vote because they are in decline and cannot as individual groupings hope to over turn the power block of DUP and SF.  SDLP, UUP and APNI carry too much baggage of the past despite SDLP and UUP being responsible for delivering the GFA for the eventual benefit of SF/DUP.  However, you can be sure that a border poll will be enough to motivate these people to make a return possibly for the first time since the GFA referendum in 1998.

The first part of that is bang on. The second part is complete bollix. The northern electorate has been institutionalised from an early age into thinking that it's us V them and votes accordingly. Take the most devious, deceitful, embezzling arsehole you can find and stick a unionist rosette on him and he'll fly home in a Protestant ward. Take a raving, bigoted idiot fishwife and drape her in green and the catholics will line up to send her to Brussels. Sammy Wilson and Martina Anderson's repeated succes at the polls are clear examples of the vast swathes of oxygen thieves that masquerade as the voting public in Ni.

Ni is full of imbeciles with only a very small minority of them running for elected office.

[armaghniac]

One thing I heard recently and would be interested in hearing your views on, was in the event of any change in the situation in the north that both communities would seek guarantees from the EU. The poi t was made that whatever was on the table or committed to by politicians was not credible, and the trust factor of the middle ground was so low that neither Dublin nor Westminster would commit or deliver on promises made.

The problem is that EU or the US or whoever cannot actually do anything, the British can do what they like.

Sammy Wilson and Martina Anderson's repeated success at the polls are clear examples of the vast swathes of oxygen thieves that masquerade as the voting public in Ni.

This the point, and SF' policy of continually rotating ministers and giving everyone, however useless, an equal share is a good example of this impoverishment.

[BennyCake]

This middle ground voters deciding the North is balls.

That's like finding a few middle ground Catholics and trying to convert them into Muslims. Non-practising Catholics are still regarding as catholics, and most would still identify themselves as such. And the vast majority of middle ground unionists would never agree to a UI.