Sam Maguire permutations

[galwayman]

My head hurts.
This is near impossible to follow to be honest.
My auld fella hasn't got a clue what happens after ulster and I'd say he's not alone in that.
It just seems very complicated, or perhaps its the communication around the possible permutations that's complicated.
I do get the intention though and I think that is right, but I also think the draw should not have been made until all provincial finals have been completed.

Serious question but what do you find so confusing about it?
Top team in each group straight into the quarter final.
2nd and 3rd placed teams play off in preliminary quarter finals with the winners of those games joining the above mentioned in the quarter final.
Pretty straightforward.

[Eire90]

if they did first two qualify people would moan about dead rubbers

[Rossfan]

My head hurts.
This is near impossible to follow to be honest.
My auld fella hasn't got a clue what happens after ulster and I'd say he's not alone in that.
It just seems very complicated, or perhaps its the communication around the possible permutations that's complicated.
I do get the intention though and I think that is right, but I also think the draw should not have been made until all provincial finals have been completed.

Serious question but what do you find so confusing about it?
Top team in each group straight into the quarter final.
2nd and 3rd placed teams play off in preliminary quarter finals with the winners of those games joining the above mentioned in the quarter final.
Pretty straightforward.

It is for us well educated Connacht folks .

[joemamas]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

Only the  GAA  could come up with preliminary quarter finals, complete nonsense, makes group stage less  appealing. One team knocked out ffs!  Same silly nonsense in Hurling as well.

I was thinking they should introduce a preliminary semifinal as well!

Apparently the Games Administration Committee have also decided to have preliminary games to decide which kids teams get to play at HT. Mad altogether.

[tbrick18]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

In your scenario, going into the last match the table could be:
Mayo -4
Kerry -2
Louth - 2
Cork -0
Last match is Kerry V louth and Mayo V cork

In that scenario, if cork and louth won their last matches, Louth could get top, Mayo second and Cork could get third with kerry finishing bottom.

That's unlikely, but they aren't dead rubbers.

Also, there is a benefit to fiishing 2nd over 3rd as you will (in theory) get an easier preliminary quarter final.

In that scenario Mayo v Cork is a dead rubber. Mayo have secured top on head to head results v Kerry & Louth. Cork are bottom due to head to head results v Kerry & Louth.
Kerry and Louth are already thro' to the preliminary 1/4s, just deciding who's 2nd and who's 3rd, so essentially a dead rubber,in fact in some cases finishing 3rd may be preferred.

Apologies

You are correct in that scenario.

Well presuming tiebreakers are based on head-to-head, which I've assumed but haven't actual seen any where.
Head-to-head isn't fair imo for a group of mixed seeds where there's a mix of home, away and neutral games.
It's fine in the league as you've the 8 best teams so it balances out.
If Kerry beat Mayo but end up level on points, it seems unfair that Kerry would finish ahead based on head-to-head after having home advantage in that head-to-head. I think if two teams end up level on points, and one had home advantage (and won) head-to-head shouldn't count.

Depending on the group and your ambitions the way their home/away/neutral fixtures are fixed can give a big advantage.
For Kerry, they've the ideal situation, the one tough opponent at home and then the two easier opponents either at neutral venue or away.
Other teams who's ambition is to just win one game and finish 3rd, will want their easiest opponent at home and happy to write off 2 games against big guns and play them away or neutral.

Do games have to have a winner on the day in the group stage? So extra time and if necessary penalties?

[LeoMc]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

In your scenario, going into the last match the table could be:
Mayo -4
Kerry -2
Louth - 2
Cork -0
Last match is Kerry V louth and Mayo V cork

In that scenario, if cork and louth won their last matches, Louth could get top, Mayo second and Cork could get third with kerry finishing bottom.

That's unlikely, but they aren't dead rubbers.

Also, there is a benefit to fiishing 2nd over 3rd as you will (in theory) get an easier preliminary quarter final.

In that scenario Mayo v Cork is a dead rubber. Mayo have secured top on head to head results v Kerry & Louth. Cork are bottom due to head to head results v Kerry & Louth.
Kerry and Louth are already thro' to the preliminary 1/4s, just deciding who's 2nd and who's 3rd, so essentially a dead rubber,in fact in some cases finishing 3rd may be preferred.

Apologies

You are correct in that scenario.

Well presuming tiebreakers are based on head-to-head, which I've assumed but haven't actual seen any where.
Head-to-head isn't fair imo for a group of mixed seeds where there's a mix of home, away and neutral games.
It's fine in the league as you've the 8 best teams so it balances out.
If Kerry beat Mayo but end up level on points, it seems unfair that Kerry would finish ahead based on head-to-head after having home advantage in that head-to-head. I think if two teams end up level on points, and one had home advantage (and won) head-to-head shouldn't count.

Depending on the group and your ambitions the way their home/away/neutral fixtures are fixed can give a big advantage.
For Kerry, they've the ideal situation, the one tough opponent at home and then the two easier opponents either at neutral venue or away.
Other teams who's ambition is to just win one game and finish 3rd, will want their easiest opponent at home and happy to write off 2 games against big guns and play them away or neutral.

Do games have to have a winner on the day in the group stage? So extra time and if necessary penalties?

No, they are just mini-leagues.

[Unlaoised]

O moore Park portlaoise will benefit from this draw looking at likely scenarios.

It's probably most accessible than most grounds for the neutral games that look likely

[GoldCoastRossie]

If the groups go to current form you could end up with

Kerry V Louth
Mayo v Cork           

Galway v Armagh
Tyrone v Westmeath

Dublin v Sligo
Roscommon v Kildare

Derry v Clare
Monaghan v Donegal

Does the final game in each league have to start at the same time ? Or you play double headers in some Groups Thurles would be perfect for Group 1 and Clones for Group 2 and with the Croke Park bias Group 3 could be a double header in Croker. Only Group 4 is an outlier really and pick the Hyde/salthill and Omagh for those games.

[Rossfan]

I should think the final games in each Group will have to start at the same time.

[GoldCoastRossie]

I should think the final games in each Group will have to start at the same time.

You never know with the GAA lol

[illdecide]

If the groups go to current form you could end up with

Kerry V Louth
Mayo v Cork           

Galway v Armagh
Tyrone v Westmeath

Dublin v Sligo
Roscommon v Kildare

Derry v Clare
Monaghan v Donegal

Does the final game in each league have to start at the same time ? Or you play double headers in some Groups Thurles would be perfect for Group 1 and Clones for Group 2 and with the Croke Park bias Group 3 could be a double header in Croker. Only Group 4 is an outlier really and pick the Hyde/salthill and Omagh for those games.

I know we're only guessing at this stage but I think we can all state that Dublin will beat Louth, Kerry will beat Clare and Galway will beat Sligo. The close final will be Derry v Armagh so they fixtures above will be pretty bang on the money there with exception of Ulster...There will be some quick turnarounds fr tickets when teams start playing weekly.

[Eire90]

will teams that have to play in the prelim quater finals and win  have to play 6 weeks in a row or something like that.

[Armagh18]

will teams that have to play in the prelim quater finals and win  have to play 6 weeks in a row or something like that.

3 group games, prelim round then qf? 5 in a row? Surely there will be at least one week off.

Edit: had a look and this is group schedule
Games will take place on the following weekends:

Rd 1: 27/28 May
Rd 2: 3/4 June
Rd 3: 17/18 June

[blanketattack]

I should think the final games in each Group will have to start at the same time.

Going by Super 8s, yes.
Although different groups can be on different days so some teams may wish to finish 3rd rather than 2nd when they see the final positions in other groups.

[Armagh18]

I should think the final games in each Group will have to start at the same time.

Going by Super 8s, yes.
Although different groups can be on different days so some teams may wish to finish 3rd rather than 2nd when they see the final positions in other groups.

to do it fair, all finalgames should really be played at the same time although not sure if that is logistically possible