Hurling 2024

Started by seafoid, January 01, 2023, 08:24:25 PM

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clonadmad

Quote from: Armagh18 on February 08, 2023, 10:30:23 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on February 08, 2023, 09:24:01 AM
In the Weaker counties

You just dont have enough players putting in the Hurling hours needed to excel at the game.
Yeah I know a couple of lads from Armagh who are unbelievably talented hurlers- maybe if they were from Kilkenny and were playing at a high standard from an early age they'd be as good as those lads. Thankless task trying to develop hurling teams in a lot of counties.

Whereas the serious hurling counties have a conveyor belt of talent every year

maybe the New Ross motion before Congress might progress things slowly in the right direction

I could see Kildare making a Hurling Breakthrough and by that I mean playing Leinster Championship and Div1 Hurling

Population,Large Business,closeness to third level colleges and a lot of Hurling Expats living now within the County


seafoid

Quote from: Upandover on February 07, 2023, 10:47:40 PM
What is missing from the likes of antrim, laois, westmeath, perhaps even dublin to get upto the level with the likes of kilkenny and limerick?

Genuine question.

Is it schools? Is it coaching? Is it parents not buying in? Soccer?

Id love to go and hear the different demographics, watch the training sessions at younger age groups just to see how it differs compared to us.
Limerick was in the doldrums for about 40 years. Money entered the scene and they were very organised. But I wouldn't have them in the same class as Kilkenny where hurling excellence has been a religion over the same period.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Zooming around

Quote from: burdizzo on February 07, 2023, 11:22:32 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 07, 2023, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: Upandover on February 07, 2023, 10:47:40 PM
What is missing from the likes of antrim, laois, westmeath, perhaps even dublin to get upto the level with the likes of kilkenny and limerick?

Genuine question.

Is it schools? Is it coaching? Is it parents not buying in? Soccer?

Id love to go and hear the different demographics, watch the training sessions at younger age groups just to see how it differs compared to us.

A mixture of dual sports doesn't help but the tradition of Kilkenny Tipp Cork and so on is a big factor in having the mindset right, for Antrim we have 4 clubs that play hurling at a decent level. We need ten and a few decent intermediate teams to push on to senior...

Schools is B level and county juvenile is at B grade too

I'm not sure or able to put my finger on it but it'll be a mixture of what you have posted..

As for training/coaching kids the right way that's a big factor too. We had fantastic coaches in our club that were doing all the right things with a group of kids a while back, the lads were developing well but the drop off or commitment disappeared.

I think the expectations are lower in these counties, too. When Laois beat Dublin to get to the all-Ireland quarter final a couple of years ago, everyone thought they'd kick on, get lads back - but instead, lads dropped away, as if they reckoned it was as far as they could go. Also - and just talking about Laois here - there's no one around who realistically EXPECTS they can win, say, a Leinster title, because there's no one (or very few, at least) who've seen it done. Offaly, on the other hand, I think do have serious ambitions to be 'back up there', and that's in no small part due to the fact there's plenty around who've seen it done, know what it takes, and fully expect that it CAN be done. And I think they probably will overtake Laois, Antrim, Westmeath pretty soon.

I also think that in the counties mentioned, hurling very much plays second fiddle to football. Sadly.

Agree with all that plus I'll add one if that's ok.

The standard clubs play at will determine how good you are. The small few clubs in Laois, for example, play each other all the time. Rivalries build up and the year becomes all about beating the rivals as opposed to improving.

Visionaries in Naas saw something. They took their teams down to Kilkenny, begged to be put in the A division, learnt a few hard lessons in the beginning but eventually prospered. They are now part and parcel of the Kilkenny club underage scene competing well in its competitions, winning a minor league recently. More importantly, their players see a way of improving. Their current senior team is the harvest of that work.

imtommygunn

Quote from: Armagh18 on February 08, 2023, 10:30:23 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on February 08, 2023, 09:24:01 AM
In the Weaker counties

You just dont have enough players putting in the Hurling hours needed to excel at the game.
Yeah I know a couple of lads from Armagh who are unbelievably talented hurlers- maybe if they were from Kilkenny and were playing at a high standard from an early age they'd be as good as those lads. Thankless task trying to develop hurling teams in a lot of counties.

Keady and Middletown are mad about the hurling. There may be more too in Armagh. Mayo clubs in AI intermediate final and I *think* sligo in junior. Wee pockets all over the place.

Zooming around

Quote from: seafoid on February 08, 2023, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: burdizzo on February 07, 2023, 11:22:32 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 07, 2023, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: Upandover on February 07, 2023, 10:47:40 PM
What is missing from the likes of antrim, laois, westmeath, perhaps even dublin to get upto the level with the likes of kilkenny and limerick?

Genuine question.

Is it schools? Is it coaching? Is it parents not buying in? Soccer?

Id love to go and hear the different demographics, watch the training sessions at younger age groups just to see how it differs compared to us.

A mixture of dual sports doesn't help but the tradition of Kilkenny Tipp Cork and so on is a big factor in having the mindset right, for Antrim we have 4 clubs that play hurling at a decent level. We need ten and a few decent intermediate teams to push on to senior...

Schools is B level and county juvenile is at B grade too

I'm not sure or able to put my finger on it but it'll be a mixture of what you have posted..

As for training/coaching kids the right way that's a big factor too. We had fantastic coaches in our club that were doing all the right things with a group of kids a while back, the lads were developing well but the drop off or commitment disappeared.

I think the expectations are lower in these counties, too. When Laois beat Dublin to get to the all-Ireland quarter final a couple of years ago, everyone thought they'd kick on, get lads back - but instead, lads dropped away, as if they reckoned it was as far as they could go. Also - and just talking about Laois here - there's no one around who realistically EXPECTS they can win, say, a Leinster title, because there's no one (or very few, at least) who've seen it done. Offaly, on the other hand, I think do have serious ambitions to be 'back up there', and that's in no small part due to the fact there's plenty around who've seen it done, know what it takes, and fully expect that it CAN be done. And I think they probably will overtake Laois, Antrim, Westmeath pretty soon.

I also think that in the counties mentioned, hurling very much plays second fiddle to football. Sadly.
Offaly have won all Irelands in recent memory. That is priceless.
It's a real pity that the momentum generated by Eddie Brennan in Laois just petered out.


Petered???? "Fucked" would be a more appropriate word there.

clonadmad

Quote from: seafoid on February 08, 2023, 11:34:28 AM
Quote from: Upandover on February 07, 2023, 10:47:40 PM
What is missing from the likes of antrim, laois, westmeath, perhaps even dublin to get upto the level with the likes of kilkenny and limerick?

Genuine question.

Is it schools? Is it coaching? Is it parents not buying in? Soccer?

Id love to go and hear the different demographics, watch the training sessions at younger age groups just to see how it differs compared to us.
Limerick was in the doldrums for about 40 years. Money entered the scene and they were very organised. But I wouldn't have them in the same class as Kilkenny where hurling excellence has been a religion over the same period.

Limerick have spent their money really well, in comparison to the likes of Galway who have blown millions on misjudged land purchases and lack of oversight on County Board spending

Equally important to Limerick is access to 3 third level colleges and excellent organisation and commitment from the right people over the past 20 odd years

Armagh18

Quote from: imtommygunn on February 08, 2023, 11:38:31 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on February 08, 2023, 10:30:23 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on February 08, 2023, 09:24:01 AM
In the Weaker counties

You just dont have enough players putting in the Hurling hours needed to excel at the game.
Yeah I know a couple of lads from Armagh who are unbelievably talented hurlers- maybe if they were from Kilkenny and were playing at a high standard from an early age they'd be as good as those lads. Thankless task trying to develop hurling teams in a lot of counties.

Keady and Middletown are mad about the hurling. There may be more too in Armagh. Mayo clubs in AI intermediate final and I *think* sligo in junior. Wee pockets all over the place.
Yeah they're big into the hurling there but again relatively- i think Middletown got to an Ulster intermediate final this year and were beat, they won it maybe 6-7 years ago. Keady were beat in a final a few years back as well.

Craobh Rua in Camlough doing great work as well- won Ulster Junior recently and stepped up to Armagh senior hurling and  held their own, but still a fair bit off Middletown. They're  not helped by the fact one of their main men is Jarly Og Burns who is obviously tied up with county football.

clonadmad

Quote from: Zooming around on February 08, 2023, 11:37:16 AM
Quote from: burdizzo on February 07, 2023, 11:22:32 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 07, 2023, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: Upandover on February 07, 2023, 10:47:40 PM
What is missing from the likes of antrim, laois, westmeath, perhaps even dublin to get upto the level with the likes of kilkenny and limerick?

Genuine question.

Is it schools? Is it coaching? Is it parents not buying in? Soccer?

Id love to go and hear the different demographics, watch the training sessions at younger age groups just to see how it differs compared to us.

A mixture of dual sports doesn't help but the tradition of Kilkenny Tipp Cork and so on is a big factor in having the mindset right, for Antrim we have 4 clubs that play hurling at a decent level. We need ten and a few decent intermediate teams to push on to senior...

Schools is B level and county juvenile is at B grade too

I'm not sure or able to put my finger on it but it'll be a mixture of what you have posted..

As for training/coaching kids the right way that's a big factor too. We had fantastic coaches in our club that were doing all the right things with a group of kids a while back, the lads were developing well but the drop off or commitment disappeared.

I think the expectations are lower in these counties, too. When Laois beat Dublin to get to the all-Ireland quarter final a couple of years ago, everyone thought they'd kick on, get lads back - but instead, lads dropped away, as if they reckoned it was as far as they could go. Also - and just talking about Laois here - there's no one around who realistically EXPECTS they can win, say, a Leinster title, because there's no one (or very few, at least) who've seen it done. Offaly, on the other hand, I think do have serious ambitions to be 'back up there', and that's in no small part due to the fact there's plenty around who've seen it done, know what it takes, and fully expect that it CAN be done. And I think they probably will overtake Laois, Antrim, Westmeath pretty soon.

I also think that in the counties mentioned, hurling very much plays second fiddle to football. Sadly.

Agree with all that plus I'll add one if that's ok.

The standard clubs play at will determine how good you are. The small few clubs in Laois, for example, play each other all the time. Rivalries build up and the year becomes all about beating the rivals as opposed to improving.

Visionaries in Naas saw something. They took their teams down to Kilkenny, begged to be put in the A division, learnt a few hard lessons in the beginning but eventually prospered. They are now part and parcel of the Kilkenny club underage scene competing well in its competitions, winning a minor league recently. More importantly, their players see a way of improving. Their current senior team is the harvest of that work.

The Mid Tipp Division were interested in allowing in Laois Teams from minor down to play in their leagues and the Laois teams could then play in their own championship, the proposal was made to the Laois CB and it then died a death.

Fair play to Naas for having the drive and commitment to play in the KK leagues but fair play to Kilkenny too for trying in a practical way to improve hurling in Kildare

This pairing up system could be done in a lot of weaker counties bordering the stronger hurling counties

Upandover

Talking of naas, theyve been everywhere at underage level.
We played them at carryduff in hurling and at lamh dearg in football last year, strong sides at both codes.

harryR

Ulster teams need to play matches against teams from the south as often as possible if they want to improve. Teams like slaughtneil, ballycran and the other stronger non Antrim clubs get no benefit from playing matches against other Ulster teams

Milltown Row2

Quote from: harryR on February 08, 2023, 02:24:00 PM
Ulster teams need to play matches against teams from the south as often as possible if they want to improve. Teams like slaughtneil, ballycran and the other stronger non Antrim clubs get no benefit from playing matches against other Ulster teams

The top tier teams in Ulster S'niel, Dunloy, Loughgiel, Cushendall, Portaferry, Ballycran would be able to compete in the Kilkenny/Tipp/Galway/Limerick leagues. I said compete though, and with their championships that would be a different ask also but not impossible.

I one league alone Antrim would have only 3 teams that would meet a standard, we just don't have enough clubs that can commit to that.. I would love to see a proper Belfast hurling only club or two that would put all efforts into hurling only, but setting aside club pride would be the hardest thing, in doing that I believe we'd have 6 or even 7 clubs that would be hurling at a higher standard and generating better players through the juvenile set ups
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

johnnycool

Quote from: clonadmad on February 08, 2023, 11:50:32 AM
Quote from: Zooming around on February 08, 2023, 11:37:16 AM
Quote from: burdizzo on February 07, 2023, 11:22:32 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 07, 2023, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: Upandover on February 07, 2023, 10:47:40 PM
What is missing from the likes of antrim, laois, westmeath, perhaps even dublin to get upto the level with the likes of kilkenny and limerick?

Genuine question.

Is it schools? Is it coaching? Is it parents not buying in? Soccer?

Id love to go and hear the different demographics, watch the training sessions at younger age groups just to see how it differs compared to us.

A mixture of dual sports doesn't help but the tradition of Kilkenny Tipp Cork and so on is a big factor in having the mindset right, for Antrim we have 4 clubs that play hurling at a decent level. We need ten and a few decent intermediate teams to push on to senior...

Schools is B level and county juvenile is at B grade too

I'm not sure or able to put my finger on it but it'll be a mixture of what you have posted..

As for training/coaching kids the right way that's a big factor too. We had fantastic coaches in our club that were doing all the right things with a group of kids a while back, the lads were developing well but the drop off or commitment disappeared.

I think the expectations are lower in these counties, too. When Laois beat Dublin to get to the all-Ireland quarter final a couple of years ago, everyone thought they'd kick on, get lads back - but instead, lads dropped away, as if they reckoned it was as far as they could go. Also - and just talking about Laois here - there's no one around who realistically EXPECTS they can win, say, a Leinster title, because there's no one (or very few, at least) who've seen it done. Offaly, on the other hand, I think do have serious ambitions to be 'back up there', and that's in no small part due to the fact there's plenty around who've seen it done, know what it takes, and fully expect that it CAN be done. And I think they probably will overtake Laois, Antrim, Westmeath pretty soon.

I also think that in the counties mentioned, hurling very much plays second fiddle to football. Sadly.

Agree with all that plus I'll add one if that's ok.

The standard clubs play at will determine how good you are. The small few clubs in Laois, for example, play each other all the time. Rivalries build up and the year becomes all about beating the rivals as opposed to improving.

Visionaries in Naas saw something. They took their teams down to Kilkenny, begged to be put in the A division, learnt a few hard lessons in the beginning but eventually prospered. They are now part and parcel of the Kilkenny club underage scene competing well in its competitions, winning a minor league recently. More importantly, their players see a way of improving. Their current senior team is the harvest of that work.

The Mid Tipp Division were interested in allowing in Laois Teams from minor down to play in their leagues and the Laois teams could then play in their own championship, the proposal was made to the Laois CB and it then died a death.

Fair play to Naas for having the drive and commitment to play in the KK leagues but fair play to Kilkenny too for trying in a practical way to improve hurling in Kildare

This pairing up system could be done in a lot of weaker counties bordering the stronger hurling counties

We've entered into the Antrim leagues at underage with the provisio that we also have to compete in our own county league and that can be a stretch where you're committing to a lot of travelling and a lot of fixtures, that's probably the same with Naas going underage in Kilkenny as do/did the Carlow clubs.

Naas has a huge catchment area with a lot of blowins from the hurling strongholds further west. They're very strong at underage and IIRC won a Div1 AI feile a few years ago. They'll get stronger with the experience in Kilkenny much like Mount Leinster Rangers getting to an AI final.


seafoid

How feasible would it be to expand the geographical footprint of hurling in Down and Antrim ?
What would you need do? The 2 counties have decent population density even after allowing for religion  :o
and Belfast is split between the 2 .
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Franko

#88
Quote from: seafoid on February 09, 2023, 05:04:32 PM
How feasible would it be to expand the geographical footprint of hurling in Down and Antrim ?
What would you need do? The 2 counties have decent population density even after allowing for religion  :o
and Belfast is split between the 2 .

Could be wrong but I think they are making decent progress in Down, with a few non peninsula clubs starting to nip at the heels of the big 3?

The higher skill levels required is a huge barrier to entry for clubs - from both a playing and coaching perspective

Non traditional clubs nearly always need a strong core of die hard hurling men to establish themselves

You tend to see someone with drive getting it started, but once they lose interest/circumstances change (or it starts to interfere with the local footballers) then it tends to shrivel away again

That or a well respected blow-in who marries into the parish

johnnycool

Quote from: Franko on February 09, 2023, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 09, 2023, 05:04:32 PM
How feasible would it be to expand the geographical footprint of hurling in Down and Antrim ?
What would you need do? The 2 counties have decent population density even after allowing for religion  :o
and Belfast is split between the 2 .

Could be wrong but I think they are making decent progress in Down, with a few non peninsula clubs starting to nip at the heels of the big 3?

The higher skill levels required is a huge barrier to entry for clubs - from both a playing and coaching perspective

Non traditional clubs nearly always need a strong core of die hard hurling men to establish themselves

You tend to see someone with drive getting it started, but once they lose interest/circumstances change (or it starts to interfere with the local footballers) then it tends to shrivel away again

That or a well respected blow-in who marries into the parish

No Ards club won an underage hurling championship in 2022. Two went to South Belfast and one to Castlewellan.
That bodes well for Down hurling in the longer term and thankfully gone are the days of the only competition the Ards clubs were each other.