Minor, U17 or U18.. Croke Parks take on it....

[thewobbler]

I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).

If your club were in the situation you might be able to fathom it.

Explain the situation, please.

If it's something along the lines of having 18 x senior players available to the club, along with 5 x lads at u17 who would play but aren't allowed...  then I would think the real situation is either a) your club has been haemorrhaging players for a decade for or more (at senior and juvenile), or b) the population rates for your parish aren't capable of sustaining a club, and the current u17 crop is an anomaly.

Because if those 5 x lads are actually of a mind and body to play adult football/hurling, they'll be along in 12 months' time, ready to roll.

[thewobbler]

Okay, let's say that the ability for some GAA clubs to field, and to therefore stay in business, is pretty much dependent on playing 16 and 17 year olds i.e. bringing in lads to fill in the last few spots for a year or two, before they bugger off to university or realise that playing sport as an adult isn't actually fun for lots of people. This would seem to be the thoughts from others above.

I'm actually getting this the more I think about. Thanks all.

What about this as a halfway house then?

If a player is registered with the GAA as both a hurler and a footballer, then he cannot play adult (senior or reserve) grade in either code, until he is an under-19.

This would largely solve Errigal Ciaran's "single issue" in one blow. But it would also limit the chance of burnout and injury during the club championship window.

[SCFC]

Burnout. The single biggest myth about the GAA.
Your average 17 or 18 old is more likely to suffer from boredom than burnout.
Yes, you'll have the odd example in a particular year where some young dual player is playing week in, week out and it often draws the headlines.
But the reality for 99% of young GAA players is that they don't get enough games and that's what makes alternative sport choices like soccer and rugby attractive. A regular structured fixtures schedule.

[johnnycool]

I know we've been here before Johnny, but for the life of me I still cannot fathom how being able to blood a few lads one season early, can be the difference between surviving or falling (or surviving/thriving).

If anything, maintaining a hard cut off point for adult games, should provide the less-obvious senior standard players in the current u-19 crop a chance to make their mark, an opportunity which they likely wouldn't get if the more-obvious senior standard players in the current u-18 crop were able to double-job for the club for the season. Let's be honest, the more-obvious senior standard players from the younger cohort will before long push the year-older players out in most cases; but not without a fight.

---

By the way, you might describe Ballyholland as a big club. And we are getting bigger, no doubt. But every senior manager we've had going back the past 7-8 years since the u17 rule came in, has bemoaned not being able to bring the more talented u17s into their team, and every single year since then, we've blooded fresh-out-of-minor footballers as soon as possible.

So honestly, I don't think clubs can be trusted not to burn out players.

That's one side of it and the better minors irrespective of cut off will go on to play senior, it's the middling ones we see are leaving a year earlier and that one year can mean a hell of a lot in terms of physical development and it's this group are impacted the most by the cut off for minor at 17. If we could get another year at U18 from them we can work with them at minor and throw them on in the last 10 minutes at reserve, junior or whatever. They still get to hurl with their peers as well.

We miss that overlap badly.

[johnnycool]

Would an acceptable compromise be that once a player has finished potentially playing any competitive football/hurling in his final year at minor level (be that at either U17 or U18) for either club or county, they are then at that point legally allowed to play in competitive adult football hurling in the relevant code?

Not sure how you could police that Fionn...

[inobest]

Okay, let's say that the ability for some GAA clubs to field, and to therefore stay in business, is pretty much dependent on playing 16 and 17 year olds i.e. bringing in lads to fill in the last few spots for a year or two, before they bugger off to university or realise that playing sport as an adult isn't actually fun for lots of people. This would seem to be the thoughts from others above.

I'm actually getting this the more I think about. Thanks all.

What about this as a halfway house then?

If a player is registered with the GAA as both a hurler and a footballer, then he cannot play adult (senior or reserve) grade in either code, until he is an under-19.

This would largely solve Errigal Ciaran's "single issue" in one blow. But it would also limit the chance of burnout and injury during the club championship window.

I actually laugh when people use burnout as the reason for not letting young players play adult football. Firstly, i fully agree with u17s not being allowed to play adult football, but for anyone to say that the reason for the change originally wasn't to help with the fixtures is kidding themselves.

What do people think these boys and girls be doing when their GAA season ends. I know in Tyrone, minor football ended for a lot of teams in mid June. Do people actually think that these children just rested then and did nothing until the club minors starts the next year? Most trained flat out with their club seniors anyway even though they couldnt play any games, but there are now more young GAA players playing soccer and rugby (at adult level i might add) than probably ever before.

I believe that both club and county should return to U18. Counties get the u18 grades out of the way and after minor competitons are finished, then allow them to play adult football when that is complete. And in the same way as happens now, if a club plays an 'ineligible' player, the opposing team can complain and get awarded points or the championship win.

Decoupling u18s would be an even worse decision than changing it to u17s in the first place and again the only reason they want to do this is for fixtures. To use burnout or player welfare at underage level is just ridiculous.

[JimStynes]

I think the biggest problem with GAA is the stop start nature of our fixtures. We could have 3 weeks of minor fixtures then nothing for a month. It's the same at seniors too. Other sports like soccer and rugby have a guaranteed game every Saturday for X amount of weeks in the season.

[Wildweasel74]

I remember winning a adult junior Championship and 3 of the best players on the team were U-17 on on the Derry minor panel. Would d we have won without them, no chance.I played at 15, I know 3 lads who played at 13, (late 80's) basically a small junior team struggles to keep their head above water. (The 3 lads were burnt out with injuries long before they were 30) It's no tickle to a senior club if they don't have 17/18yrs old but Intermediate level down, especially those with no reserve team, need them.

[Armagh18]

I know in Tyrone, minor football ended for a lot of teams in mid June.

For most minor football teams in Tyrone this year the season only resumed in mid-June after a two month pause in mid-April (with four rounds of the league completed) while the county minor team was playing in Ulster & All-Ireland! Only Grade 4 competitions carried on in that period while non-county players on Grade 1, 2 & 3 teams were left to stew and given only three days notice of Round 5 league fixtures during a busy exam period once the county minor team was KO'd by Kerry in the All-Ireland quarter final. Most such teams didn't end their season until well into August or even September (if they had a championship run).

that's disgraceful.

[SCFC]

As I said earlier in the thread, in my experience in Laois anyway, the biggest problem facing players from age 17 to 19 is not too many games but the exact opposite - far too few games.

Most young lads in their last year minor (under 17) might play 4 to 6 league games before the junior cert and those would be mostly played without county players which is fine. No hold up on fixtures. No league finals or winners by the way! It's called a development league.

Championship then of 3 to 6 games with some sort of losers shields built in. So 7 to 12 competitive games in the full year for the average 17 year old who only plays one code.

It's worse for the average lad just gone out of minor who isn't ready for senior or intermediate yet. So, if he plays second or third team with his club, he'll get between 4 and 7 league games minimum and 2 championship games minimum with the possibilty of extra games if his team has a championship run.

In one way, I wouldn't mind if they went ahead and decoupled the under 18s from adult but for God's sake, give them enough games. But surely letting 18 year olds have the chance or opportunity to play adult games is the best solution.

[bennydorano]

Is there anything definitive on the way? Clubs will be getting going again pretty soon, would be helpful to know if it's going to be at U17 or U18 level (amongst other things too).

[Rossfan]

I'd imagine any revisions passed at Congress would only come in for 2024?

[bennydorano]

I had heard a rumour if it was agreed at Ulster Convention Ulster would revert to 16/18 for 2023.

[LeoMc]

It is going out to Tyrone clubs next week for a vote on u13/15/17/19 v u14/16/18/20, two weeks after they announced start dates for u13/15/17/19 but before Central Council U-turned.

[PMG1]

It's up to each county what they want to do and whatever they want to do can start this year, they don't have to wait to 2024 to change