The SDLP

Started by ardmhachaabu, April 23, 2010, 09:32:25 PM

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Evil Genius

Quote from: armaghniac on December 20, 2019, 07:41:20 PM
It simply isn't acceptable to "oppose Sinn Féin", if SF proposes more buses then you cannot just abolish buses to spite them and the same with the Irish language.
False analogy, since no-one is proposing to "abolish Irish" i.e. even with no ILA, people will still be free to speak Irish whenever they wish (indeed they should be supported to do so imo)

A better analogy would be proposing to introduce special bus lanes on roads where there currently are no buses, there being no buses because virtually no-one uses them.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 08:39:15 PM
Yes, some people here would do away with the Irish language if they got a chance - only a hobby.
Sorry, but that's a Straw Man, since such people (if they exist) are idiots, who should not be taken seriously.

Quote from: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 08:39:15 PM
The ILA, according to Conradh na Gaeilge and An Dream Dearg etc. is the best way, through the various language experts, to protect minority languages.  It's best practice but it needs to be a stand alone act.
I'm not sure either of those sources could be said to be objective?
And in any case, whether they are correct or not, it is not a case of "protecting" the language, since like it or not, it has long since died out in NI.
The question should be whether an ILA would revive the language. I see no reason why it would, if only because so few people in NI currently make much of an effort to learn it beyond the rudimentary level they reached when required/persuaded to learn it at school.

Quote from: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 08:39:15 PM
Welsh and the Scots have their own acts and there's not the same uproar.
Both Wales and Scotland have areas where Welsh and Gallic are the primary language, spoken by the local population on a day-to-day basis. Northern Ireland does not.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2019, 11:38:37 PM
Marty34,what the extent of your Irish? And what do you think makes you Irish?
I don't speak Irish, but I'm as Irish as anyone on this board.
Conversely, I do speak French to a good level, but I'm not French.
Obviously.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 21, 2019, 02:20:08 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 21, 2019, 02:05:44 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2019, 12:19:44 AM
Quote from: bannside on December 21, 2019, 12:16:04 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.

Exactly
Croppy lie down

crystal clear on this board who are the castle catholics/west brits. without our own language we are nothing but serfs
Go on then, what is the Irish for "playing the man", rather than the "ball"?
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: hardstation on December 21, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
Sinn Fein 'weaponising' the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.
Whom do you mean by "Unionists"?

Do you imagine we are a monolithic bloc, all following exactly the same orthodoxy?

Many people on here casually invoke "the DUP" on this issue, as though they are the spokespersons for all Unionists, when their vote doesn't constitute a majority within Unionism, or anything like it.
And even of those who do vote DUP, many do so simply in order to keep SF out (as many SF voters do in reverse).

Indeed one recent poster mentioned the Orange Order. He/she might do well to note that the OO has long declined to publish its membership numbers, doubtless because it is estimated to have as few as 25,000 members, which equates to around 2.5% of the one million Protestants in NI.

So having got that out of the way, do you deny that SF are currently weaponising Irish? And does such a policy help or hinder the cause?
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: Rois on December 21, 2019, 12:35:08 PM
I studied Irish (and French) to A Level years ago, and have had cause and occasion to speak both since to varying degrees, albeit much of it forgotten.
In Northern Ireland?

Quote from: Rois on December 21, 2019, 12:35:08 PM
I don't think an ILA as currently being discussed should be a priority in law, but formal recognition for the legitimacy of the language is long overdue.
What do you mean by "formal recognition"?
I personally would have no problem with some sort of Act from Stormont declaring that Irish was long the ancient language in these parts, that all those who wish to revive it should be encouraged and that those who do use it should not be discriminated against etc.

But that is a sight different from eg spending money on bilingual road signs, which would lead to the English version being scrubbed out in Nationalist areas and the Irish version in Unionist areas, leading to further segregation and sectarianising (word?) of the places we all have to live in.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

#426
Quote from: marty34 on December 21, 2019, 01:34:33 PM
Another post - bilingualism is good.  Most children in Europe are bilingual.  Research has proven that bilingual has enormous benefits.
Of course bi-lingualism is good. And no-one is saying (or at least no-one reasonable) that Irish language teaching, or Irish language schools, should be banned. Imo, there is a good argument for encouraging them.

But that is a long way short of pretending that Irish has equal standing* in NI with English, when it patently does not.

Otherwise we'd be introducing eg Polish or Chinese Language Acts as well.


* - "Standing" is not the same as "value" or "merit", btw.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: seafoid on December 21, 2019, 09:05:42 PM
Bourdieu defined doxa as a realm of unquestioned orthodoxy in which things cannot be thought or said.
In the DUP the doxa is that NI is British and that anything Irish is the enemy.
Once more, just because the DUP may gain the most votes of any party from those Unionists who bother to vote at all, does not mean they speak for every Unionist on this topic any more than they do eg on gay rights or Brexit.

Ditto SF on the Nationalist side.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

tonto1888

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:40:40 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 21, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
Sinn Fein 'weaponising' the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.
Whom do you mean by "Unionists"?

Do you imagine we are a monolithic bloc, all following exactly the same orthodoxy?

Many people on here casually invoke "the DUP" on this issue, as though they are the spokespersons for all Unionists, when their vote doesn't constitute a majority within Unionism, or anything like it.
And even of those who do vote DUP, many do so simply in order to keep SF out (as many SF voters do in reverse).

Indeed one recent poster mentioned the Orange Order. He/she might do well to note that the OO has long declined to publish its membership numbers, doubtless because it is estimated to have as few as 25,000 members, which equates to around 2.5% of the one million Protestants in NI.

So having got that out of the way, do you deny that SF are currently weaponising Irish? And does such a policy help or hinder the cause?

I don't like the term weaponising the Irish language. The only other person I've really seen using it is Bryson. That said, I do think an ILA should be out to the side to get storming up and running. Once it is and things like health and education are back in track then it will be time to get an ILA

bannside

Going to be an interesting few days as the DUP scramble from one crisis to the next. My guess is they will make a calculated gesture of concession on ILA but it will be watered down just enough to be wholly devisive to those seeking a full blown no holds barred version. A Devide and Conquer policy. Some in favour some against....muddy the waters...make it look like they aren't conceding too much to their hardline opponents etc etc.

If the shoe was on the other foot it would be exactly the same. That's the way politics works here isnt it. And the official communication from DUP will be released at 2.30pm.on Christmas Eve,  just so that it gets lost for a bit while people are distracted by the festivities. Or am I just being cynical!








JPGJOHNNYG

^^^ agree with this 100%

Milltown Row2

It was the brits that tried to ban it back in the 1300's first, before we had unionists, it died after the famine and was only used in poor rural areas in the west of Ireland.

Since partition the unionist have tried their best to eradicate Irish culture in the north but it's not going away, and it's in a far better place than before, so continuing as it is, surely it will grow organically and develop?
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

bannside

Unionist bigots and loyalists hate it with a vengence no doubt about that. And I hope it hurts that shower hard. But not all Protestant people are bigots and many have no objection to the right of Irish people to obtain a proper platform for the language to be used - as long as it's not used as a big stick to beat them with at every opportunity. That's the problem though. There will be plenty queuing up to do just that.... and in doing so will turn off the exact profile of middle of the road "unionist" that will be key to securing approval from the middle ground when it comes to the Big vote!

The Protestant "ruling class" trampled all over Irish people for generations, but the vast majority of them have come to realise that that was plain wrong and has no place in modern society. In the event of a satisfactory ILA I would like to see its implementation rolled out with dignity, as evidence that in an AI situation the rights and traditions of their community will be safeguarded.

Of course that will be too soft a stance for many who havent the vision to realise that if the ILA is heralded as a massive "up your nose" to all and sundry, that they are doing a disservice to Irish nationalism in the medium term.

6th sam

#433
Quote from: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:07:28 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 20, 2019, 07:41:20 PM
It simply isn't acceptable to "oppose Sinn Féin", if SF proposes more buses then you cannot just abolish buses to spite them and the same with the Irish language.
False analogy, since no-one is proposing to "abolish Irish" i.e. even with no ILA, people will still be free to speak Irish whenever they wish (indeed they should be supported to do so imo)

A better analogy would be proposing to introduce special bus lanes on roads where there currently are no buses, there being no buses because virtually no-one uses them.

That's very neighbourly of you allowing people to speak Irish if they wish😂😂 . I'm very grateful for That admirable generosity of spirit in allowing people to speak their native tongue .

I feel many are deliberately or otherwise missing the point about an ILA, it's merely asking for similar status as Welsh or Gallic. It's not about how many speak it on a day to day to basis , it's about cultural protection. I would compare it to listed buildings protection. Belfast City Hall is cold and damp and economically  inefficient . It probably would make sense to pull it to the ground and selling off the prime real estate for tower block development , but thankfully the building's listed for protection of our historical environment. We should look to do the same for positive aspects of our cultural heritage .
I'm totally opposed to an ILA holding up Stormont, when there are urgent issues around health and the economy. However,  I think DUP resistance to Irish Language status equivalent to Scots/Welsh betrays a lack of generosity , a continued desire for dominance and an elevation of British culture over Irish culture-which is a contravention of the GFA

Milltown Row2

On another note good to see EG back!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea