The official dark arts/cynical play thread

[Hardy]

A couple of minutes to go Kildare up 2 by turn the ball over just inside Offaly half. Mickey Conway drags player down, howls of derision from Offaly supporters mumbles of "well done Mikey" from Kildare contingent, ref issues black card minute wasted game dies out. Not a word on SG or majority of match reports.

Which is exactly what we predicted the black card would do about the last-minute, score-saving drag-down.

[AZOffaly]

A couple of minutes to go Kildare up 2 by turn the ball over just inside Offaly half. Mickey Conway drags player down, howls of derision from Offaly supporters mumbles of "well done Mikey" from Kildare contingent, ref issues black card minute wasted game dies out. Not a word on SG or majority of match reports.

Which is exactly what we predicted the black card would do about the last-minute, score-saving drag-down.

Which is not the point.

[Hardy]

I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.

[Jinxy]

I will say this though re the effectiveness or otherwise of the black card.
I think Kerrigan was a big loss to Cork.
They had him running from deep and if he was on the field in the 2nd half when the game opened up, he could have done a lot of damage.
The black card is only really an effective deterrent/punishment during the first 60 minutes of a game.
After that time, the team in the lead are quite happy to pick up one or two if it stops a comeback.

[From the Bunker]

I will say this though re the effectiveness or otherwise of the black card.
I think Kerrigan was a big loss to Cork.
They had him running from deep and if he was on the field in the 2nd half when the game opened up, he could have done a lot of damage.
The black card is only really an effective deterrent/punishment during the first 60 minutes of a game.
After that time, the team in the lead are quite happy to pick up one or two if it stops a comeback.

In Fairness David Moran was a loss as well!

The (10 minute) Sin bin is the way to go!

[Jinxy]

Kerry were already losing midfield when Moran went though.
The way Kerrigan was deployed was a big part of the Cork game-plan and Kerry had their purple patch after he was black carded.
Also, I cannot understand why Paddy Kelly isn't one of the first names on the Cork teamsheet.
Has to start the next day.

[AZOffaly]

I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.

I think it's a non-sequitur. "See, the black card has done nothing about the score saving foul".

Joe Brolly aside, and his idiotic rant about Sean Cavanagh, I think most people understand the black card is designed to stop cynical fouling, primarily drag downs and body checks, occurring throughout the game. I often point to Declan O'Sullivan dragging down the Cavan full back in the Cavan backline, in order to stop a counter attack. *That* was the insidious cynicism which was in danger of pervading the whole game, not just the headline of a man running through on goal and getting dragged down.

People were using the cynical foul as a deliberate ploy to get set after a turnover, or to impede counter attacks with off the ball blocking of runs etc. I absolutely think the black card has curtailed a lot of that behaviour.

It was never going to stop Sean Cavanagh taking down the Monaghan man that time, and Joe Brolly undermined his whole argument (as usual) by making it all about Cavanagh's foul. Of course the foul was a great example of the type of tacklethe rule (which had already been voted in) was going to address, but in reality that situation isn't going to be stopped by a black card, yellow card or even red card a lot of times. People will take one for the team. But will they drag down a full back for the team? I don't think so.

And if the ref wasted a minute black carding the guy, he should have added a minute.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

[Jinxy]

Black cards are heavier.

[AZOffaly]

Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

[Dinny Breen]

Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

The substitution has to take place at the next break in play. A cynical team like Tyrone would milk a good minute to 2 minutes out of it, between protestations at the ref, the odd bit of handbags, the slow-walk off, taking the jersey off putting back on ritual. Can be a real momentum killer, especially with the standard "There will be two minutes of additional time"

[AZOffaly]

Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

The substitution has to take place at the next break in play. A cynical team like Tyrone would milk a good minute to 2 minutes out of it, between protestations at the ref, the odd bit of handbags, the slow-walk off, taking the jersey off putting back on ritual. Can be a real momentum killer, especially with the standard "There will be two minutes of additional time"

Yeah, but that's really up to the ref. The sub coming on is just like any other sub coming on, so the only delay really is getting the lad off the pitch, just like a red card. If there's a delay, the ref should add it on.

[Jinxy]

Can't say I'm much of an expert at this sort of thing, but I'd imagine it'd probably take as long to show a yellow/red card to a player as a black card.

I suppose the whole strolling off makes it slower than a yellow. Same as the red though. Actually quicker, because he doesn;t have to take a card out, just show him the back of the book!

The substitution has to take place at the next break in play. A cynical team like Tyrone would milk a good minute to 2 minutes out of it, between protestations at the ref, the odd bit of handbags, the slow-walk off, taking the jersey off putting back on ritual. Can be a real momentum killer, especially with the standard "There will be two minutes of additional time"

Showing the ref where you have his girlfriend's phone number written on your arm etc.

[Esmarelda]

I thought it was expanding on the point. In fact, I should have said that while we anticipated that the black card would do nothing about the main issue its supporting PR hooha purported to address, we didn't anticipate that it would make this particular problem even worse, by providing an additional incentive for the last-minute, score-saving drag-down - the opportunity to run down the clock while the ref foosters with black cards.

I think it's a non-sequitur. "See, the black card has done nothing about the score saving foul".

Joe Brolly aside, and his idiotic rant about Sean Cavanagh, I think most people understand the black card is designed to stop cynical fouling, primarily drag downs and body checks, occurring throughout the game. I often point to Declan O'Sullivan dragging down the Cavan full back in the Cavan backline, in order to stop a counter attack. *That* was the insidious cynicism which was in danger of pervading the whole game, not just the headline of a man running through on goal and getting dragged down.

People were using the cynical foul as a deliberate ploy to get set after a turnover, or to impede counter attacks with off the ball blocking of runs etc. I absolutely think the black card has curtailed a lot of that behaviour.

It was never going to stop Sean Cavanagh taking down the Monaghan man that time, and Joe Brolly undermined his whole argument (as usual) by making it all about Cavanagh's foul. Of course the foul was a great example of the type of tacklethe rule (which had already been voted in) was going to address, but in reality that situation isn't going to be stopped by a black card, yellow card or even red card a lot of times. People will take one for the team. But will they drag down a full back for the team? I don't think so.

And if the ref wasted a minute black carding the guy, he should have added a minute.

If the sin bin had been brought in as many people suggested then the team, as well as the individual, would have been punished. Players might still do it but at least they'd have to fight on with 14 men or less.

[AZOffaly]

I've always said I prefer the sin bin, but that was never given a fair chance.