A parents worst nightmare. 2 confirmed deaths with others in hospital:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-47606006 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-47606006)
Awful. A complete nightmare.
Oh jeez. Went there loads of times years ago. Any idea what happened?
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 18, 2019, 06:58:24 AM
Oh jeez. Went there loads of times years ago. Any idea what happened?
It seems they were crushed at the front of a queue. Unfortunately a third young person is confirmed to have died. So very sad.
Certainly seems to be confusion about what happened:
https://twitter.com/Jason15569153/status/1107501411049324545
Quote from: Smokin Joe on March 18, 2019, 08:09:25 AM
Certainly seems to be confusion about what happened:
https://twitter.com/Jason15569153/status/1107501411049324545
That's no longer on BBC website and Police this morning said they were crushed at the front of the queue. To be fair the DJ may not have been aware of what happened in the aftermath.
Jesus, RIP. This hits home a bit as my eldest lad (Who is just about 16) had been pushing hard to be allowed to go to this.
All 3 from the Dungannon area.
Quote from: bennydorano on March 18, 2019, 08:17:00 AM
This hits home a bit
As it does for me Benny. I've made many a trip up there over the years.
As someone else has said, your very worst nightmare as a parent. Poor kids - May They Rest In Peace. Thoughts and prayers with the families and friends involved.
A family friend was telling me yesterday that he was bringing his daughter up to "the Vale" and he was going to wait for her outside. Tragic beyond belief.
Spent my youth around Clubland and Cookstown growing up. An unreal tragedy.
Absolutely tragic.
Horrific. RIP to the dead.
Such an awful thing to wake up to. Young kids going out for an enjoyable night out. Terrible. RIP
Very tragic indeed, terrible for the families. Couldn't even think of that as my daughter keeps asking to go to Cookstown for a disco but i keep refusing (thank God), just a query is that place Clubland or is that somewhere different in Cookstown?
RIP kids...Unreal for your kids to go out to a disco and not come back home again.
Quote from: illdecide on March 18, 2019, 10:13:53 AM
Very tragic indeed, terrible for the families. Couldn't even think of that as my daughter keeps asking to go to Cookstown for a disco but i keep refusing (thank God), just a query is that place Clubland or is that somewhere different in Cookstown?
RIP kids...Unreal for your kids to go out to a disco and not come back home again.
No Clubland is different. It's the Greenvale hotel, again not to be confused with the Glenavon hotel. All separate venues.
Quote from: illdecide on March 18, 2019, 10:13:53 AM
Very tragic indeed, terrible for the families. Couldn't even think of that as my daughter keeps asking to go to Cookstown for a disco but i keep refusing (thank God), just a query is that place Clubland or is that somewhere different in Cookstown?
RIP kids...Unreal for your kids to go out to a disco and not come back home again.
Clubland different that was the pink pussycat down the middle of the town
No longer opened
Shocking incident. My nephew was in the queue as it happened. Traumatising for all the young ones who witnessed it also. Especially when they all knew each other. God love the families. May they all rest in peace 😢
Terrible the whole thing. The greenvale is a rite of passage for teenagers in mid Ulster, and further afield in recent years with the rising popularity of buses.
That's the problem with these buses, they dump people off at the door 50 or 60 at a time, doesn't take long for a crowd to build up, couple that with the doors not being opened yet and it's a disaster waiting to happen.
God help those poor kids. Know of a few ones caught up in it and they're really badly shook up as you can imagine.
May the three victims of this tragedy rest in peace.
This will have serious ramifications for health and safety down the line. These sorts of incidents can not be allowed to happen ever again.
An absolute tragedy! I felt physically sick reading about it.
How did this happen though?? It's not a football stadium, it's an underage nightclub. Was there no queuing system to get into this place? What were the door staff doing when all this was happening? There will no doubt be all sorts of rumours over the next few weeks about who's at fault but this shouldn't have happened in this day and age. God help those poor families and children who witnessed it all.
Based on some of the first hand accounts I would be very surprised if the owner doesn't end up in prison.
I read one and I'd be very surprised if the bouncers or whoever it was looking out at the children don't end up in prison along side him!!
Absolutely shocking news. RIP to the children and condolences to all the families. Bouncers not coming out too good it seems.
Desperate stuff altogether. Sympathies to all the families who have lost loved ones. It's hard to fathom how this can happen in this day and age.
Terrible tragedy. My family would know one of the families involved. A few know them fairly well. God help them all. I can't imagine what they're going through.
It sounds like the same thing happened at Hillsbrough, with kids apparently knocking at the doors and staff not opening them.
If that is true that is scandalous, and unforgivable that this could happen here in 2019.
God help their families and give them strength to get through the coming days.
Edendork, Dungannon and Donaghmore, terrible tragedy
Quote from: Dire Ear on March 18, 2019, 02:22:03 PM
Edendork, Dungannon and Donaghmore, terrible tragedy
RIP.
Shocking news. Condolences to the families. It's crazy to think how something like this can unfold. Doesn't look good for the people running the event that they initiallyseemed oblivious to what was going on outside.
Quote from: general_lee on March 18, 2019, 02:53:57 PM
Shocking news. Condolences to the families. It's crazy to think how something like this can unfold. Doesn't look good for the people running the event that they initiallyseemed oblivious to what was going on outside.
Is a crush getting into a disco common? Hillsborough type events can create a rush because the game starts. creating sense of urgency. Crushes in discos are normally caused by a fire or panic to leave the venue. What created a crush to get into a disco that was likely going to continue for 3 or 4 hours? Was there a big shower or something?
Very sad. I ringing to 1.30 last nite checking my niece wasn't out. The entrance to the disco end at the greenvale a very bad layout. Has been since they created a covered smoke area all those yrs ago. A lot of questions asked on BBC how many under age at it when it was over 18 but its been like that getting in to many a place in ni for years. Too many buses land at the same time. And not sure what measures if any they have outside to ensure crowd built up doesn't occur. Aftermath not change the sadness of what occurred.
Buses arriving at a venue can't be blamed, it's how they control the crowd outside.
I know for underage events there seems to be crowd control in place for most clubs, hotels etc. There many a place I been for adults where crowd measures are non existant
Shocking. My cousin's daughter was at it. She saw her friend undergoing resuscitation, but he didn't make it. It could easily have been her.
My cousin's daughter is mentioned in this account, her name is Morgan. Initially it was thought that she didn't make it, but she did. I hope it's okay to post this, but if for any reason anyone wants me to take it down, PM me.
Update: Seems like there was another person called Morgan involved, and they didn't make it.
QuoteIt started with pushing and shoving but everyone was still laughing and having a good time. Then the literal crushing started.
The people on the outside of this line were so determined to get in they felt the need to not only push us against the wall but push with all their strength. No matter how much we screamed and pushed back, there was no movement.
Two of my friends fell to the ground. I tried to pull them up but at that point there was no room for them to even come back up. So I started screaming at the top of my lungs:
"My friends are on the ground, move back!"
"My friends have fainted, move back!"
"My friends can't breath, move back!"
- nothing. Not one bit of movement.
I could still see people laughing with no idea what was going on. At this point I thought my friends were going to die, I was standing up and I couldn't breath so I couldn't imagine how they felt. I was hysterically screaming for people to move but it was only the people around me who knew the seriousness.
With more and more pushing, I also fell. But the thing about me was that I wasn't on the ground, I was on top of someone, and this person was on top of someone else. As I looked down I could see multiple bodies underneath me and as I looked up I could see multiple bodies on top of me. It was the most traumatic, frightening and stressful moment of my life.
I was looking about for my friends and trying to keep my head up. As dramatic as it sounds, I closed my eyes for a little and accepted what was going to happen however, an elbow to my throat soon woke me up. People were scratching, biting and grabbing anything they could to pull themselves up to breath. I think that's what really shows the seriousness of it all, people were literally fighting for their lives.
It got to a point where even when I had my eyes open, I couldn't see. It felt like this went on forever but eventually I felt bodies being dragged over me and beside me. It wasn't the bouncers and it wasn't the police, it was the young people in the line who pulled me out.
My leg was caught underneath someone and my hair was caught somewhere else, my jeans were pulled down around my thighs and my jersey above my head but I was getting pulled out nonetheless. I lay on the ground and opened my eyes, I remember seeing some motionless legs, a few socks and shoes and then I was pulled up and brought away.
I rang my parents to explain what had happened and let them know I was okay, I then tried to find my friends. I ran about frantically. I seen a young boy lying motionless trying to be resuscitated by the ambulance crew and I seen his friends screech as they found out he wasn't going to make it.
I don't think I will ever experience more relief in my life than when I seen one of my friends that had fallen, I was shocked she was alive. We all eventually found each other apart from my other friend that had fallen. We heard people had seen him, that he was roughed up but he was okay, I needed to see him myself though. He then came running towards us sobbing and all we could do was hug him.
These 'people' aren't just 'people', they were young people, teenagers at 16/17 years old. They were only children.
It could've been anyone.
Unfortunately, a friend of mine who I had seen in the line and chatted to minutes beforehand has died. Morgan and the two other angels, just like the rest of us, left their families last night for an enjoyable night out but unlike the rest of us, they didn't make it home. My heart breaks for their poor families.
There is no sugar coating what happened last night. As it got serious, we banged the windows of the hotel and tried to get help. The people inside simply looked away. While this was happening the gates were still locked and the bouncers were no help. If it wasn't for the young people doing the right thing and ringing the police, the situation could've been so much worse.
The truth is, this could've been prevented.
I'm heartbroken.💔
Brutal and so avoidable. Very sad for the families and they will be very angry.
I wonder if this will signal the end of the era of the wink-and-nod when 16 year-olds get into 18+ events. I remember starting my nightlife career at 16, we used to think it was because we happened to look 18. In hindsight, in the places we went to I'd say nearly half were underage, and ID checks were rare, probably because they were happy to sell drink to all comers. Occasionally the bouncers would give us the "bring ID next time or you can't get in" speech, but they never followed up on it.
I wonder if it'll lead to a change in crowd control regulations for events like this. People don't always grasp how dangerous large crowds can be. It doesn't take many people to apply a lot of pressure that can be deadly for people at the front. It needs to be taken seriously. It's one of the reasons why I'm okay with the scrapping of the tradition of the Croke Park pitch invasion. I know it's nice to get on the field and all, but if it were allowed to continue for much longer it would have been a matter of time before something bad happened. "Health and safety" is often used a euphemism for overcautious killjoys, but there are real reasons why we have it.
There's a lot to be said for queues and proper on site management's. Ie like concerts. People trying to force there way into queues at any event doesn't help. Like I said. I Greenvale entrance to the disco end a terrible layout.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 18, 2019, 04:20:13 PM
My cousin's daughter is mentioned in this account, her name is Morgan. Initially it was thought that she didn't make it, but she did. I hope it's okay to post this, but if for any reason anyone wants me to take it down, PM me.
QuoteIt started with pushing and shoving but everyone was still laughing and having a good time. Then the literal crushing started.
The people on the outside of this line were so determined to get in they felt the need to not only push us against the wall but push with all their strength. No matter how much we screamed and pushed back, there was no movement.
Two of my friends fell to the ground. I tried to pull them up but at that point there was no room for them to even come back up. So I started screaming at the top of my lungs:
"My friends are on the ground, move back!"
"My friends have fainted, move back!"
"My friends can't breath, move back!"
- nothing. Not one bit of movement.
I could still see people laughing with no idea what was going on. At this point I thought my friends were going to die, I was standing up and I couldn't breath so I couldn't imagine how they felt. I was hysterically screaming for people to move but it was only the people around me who knew the seriousness.
With more and more pushing, I also fell. But the thing about me was that I wasn't on the ground, I was on top of someone, and this person was on top of someone else. As I looked down I could see multiple bodies underneath me and as I looked up I could see multiple bodies on top of me. It was the most traumatic, frightening and stressful moment of my life.
I was looking about for my friends and trying to keep my head up. As dramatic as it sounds, I closed my eyes for a little and accepted what was going to happen however, an elbow to my throat soon woke me up. People were scratching, biting and grabbing anything they could to pull themselves up to breath. I think that's what really shows the seriousness of it all, people were literally fighting for their lives.
It got to a point where even when I had my eyes open, I couldn't see. It felt like this went on forever but eventually I felt bodies being dragged over me and beside me. It wasn't the bouncers and it wasn't the police, it was the young people in the line who pulled me out.
My leg was caught underneath someone and my hair was caught somewhere else, my jeans were pulled down around my thighs and my jersey above my head but I was getting pulled out nonetheless. I lay on the ground and opened my eyes, I remember seeing some motionless legs, a few socks and shoes and then I was pulled up and brought away.
I rang my parents to explain what had happened and let them know I was okay, I then tried to find my friends. I ran about frantically. I seen a young boy lying motionless trying to be resuscitated by the ambulance crew and I seen his friends screech as they found out he wasn't going to make it.
I don't think I will ever experience more relief in my life than when I seen one of my friends that had fallen, I was shocked she was alive. We all eventually found each other apart from my other friend that had fallen. We heard people had seen him, that he was roughed up but he was okay, I needed to see him myself though. He then came running towards us sobbing and all we could do was hug him.
These 'people' aren't just 'people', they were young people, teenagers at 16/17 years old. They were only children.
It could've been anyone.
Unfortunately, a friend of mine who I had seen in the line and chatted to minutes beforehand has died. Morgan and the two other angels, just like the rest of us, left their families last night for an enjoyable night out but unlike the rest of us, they didn't make it home. My heart breaks for their poor families.
There is no sugar coating what happened last night. As it got serious, we banged the windows of the hotel and tried to get help. The people inside simply looked away. While this was happening the gates were still locked and the bouncers were no help. If it wasn't for the young people doing the right thing and ringing the police, the situation could've been so much worse.
The truth is, this could've been prevented.
I'm heartbroken.💔
Jesus christ. :'( >:(
People will be going to prison over this.
RIP awful but why push forward to that extent in queues, ignoring the screams up the front to push back.
The BBC had the camera shot before the incident happened. The Since when is a queue 25 people wide by 50plus deep trying to get through a set of gates to the 1.8m wide. Where is the supervision to turn this crowd into a orderly Queue. A ziz zag type Set up such as concerts with on site supervision badly amiss. This hotel not the only place I seen this. I have I seen some bad build up at turnstiles at gaa games in the past.
Mickey McElhatton the owner is a good man. I appreciate that emotions are high and very very raw but it's important to let the police do their job.
Quote from: trailer on March 18, 2019, 07:55:45 PM
Mickey McElhatton the owner is a good man. I appreciate that emotions are high and very very raw but it's important to let the police do their job.
Saw him earlier. Seems understandably cut up about it. Yes the peelers need to get to the bottom of it.
I'd say every person on here has been in a situation, that but for the grace of God, could have turned as deadly as last nights. People don't realize that every time you set foot in a stadium, pub, nightclub or function hall, danger can be lurking just around the corner. God Bless all those involved
What an awful tragedy can't get it out of my head all day.
I spent my 16-18s in the Greenvale along with my other half and loads of friends. We where just discussing it today - It was always a venue where a potential crush could happen. Back years ago when we where at it it was usually when everyone was on the way out and if some fighting (usually involving the bouncers) started and everyone rushed for the exits. My wife was saying she would remember the danger she feared I remember it too but being quite tall I always remember being glad that my head was high and out of the crowd but thinking about how she felt made me think someone lighter or a girl who isn't as strong must make it so frightening. Anyway back then the exit was wide and there was plenty of room as soon as you made out the door but since they have put the smoking area there (being in Greenvale a lot I noticed it every time and always thought it wasn't a great place for a glorified cattle crush.... never thought this would be the outcome) it is very narrow entrance/exit.
Having talked to some eye witnesses and watching some horrible footage there seems to have been no bouncers/security outside and I think this is where the problem lies - some of the door staff would be questionable - your usual brain dead hard lad thug looking to beat up some young lads if they step out of line. Mickey Mcelhatton on the other hand would be a well known, highly thought of man within the community and will be genuinely distraut about this but in my opinion he has overall responsibility and has been let down by his door staff! He was outside on his hands and knees doing CPR as far as I have heard.
God Rest the children and may their families be comforted in their grief in this dark time.
Always though the aviva corridor routes were very narrow compared to croke park and are an accident waiting to happen. Especially at concerts.
Really hard to put into words what the families of those who died will be going through. No doubt repercussions will follow and blame will be placed on many different people, but let's hope any investigations proceed quickly and don't drag on
I've struggled to get my head around this all day. Like a few posters have said, I spent many nights in the Greenvale during my teenage years and it's just shocking to think that this sort of thing can happen to kids on a night out. I hope we get to the bottom of what exactly happened so this can never happen again. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families who have lost their loved ones. Such a tragic waste of young lives. RIP.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2019, 07:34:27 PM
The grief of this will soon turn to anger and people looking for answers. The families of 3 kids shouldn't be planning funerals because they queued up to go for a night out. This happened on the hotel grounds and the owners are responsible for the safety of the patrons. It seems to becoming obvious that there was inadequate crowd control.
Too many places believe that "bouncers" are there to throw out drunks, chat up girls and rough up people smaller than them. They are supposed to be there for the safety of all patrons and I would assume that means controlling crowds prior to, during and after the disco.
Absolutely tragic event. My daughter is younger but knows one of the kids. My other kids know the brother of another one of the victims. All are understandably shocked and don't really know how to feel.
I think this kind of comment is unhelpful and potentially harmful as it can sway public opinion without any facts behind it.
None of us know exactly what happened. Only certainty is that 3 children have tragically died. From the outside looking in you could point the finger at all those eejit of kids pushing the line, or the bus companies taking underage kids to an over 18s venue. Or even the parents if they are aware their underage kids were going there. Or the bouncers or the owners for not having a safe enough setup or the local council for not ensuring health and safety standards are up to the correct level (if that is the case).
Let the authorities do their jobs without the guesswork from uninformed public. How would the parents of those kids feel reading that post? Then perhaps find out later that none of it is true.
It really grinds on me how people can be so insensitive when these things happen.
My own experience of the greenvale goes back a few years, but I never found the bouncers to be any worse than anywhere else. As it happens I was in it on the Friday at a private function and was speaking g to the owner briefly. Always seems to go out of his way for his patrons, but that's just opinion.
God help them all.
Has it been confirmed that it was an 18+ event? I thought I saw on here and other places earlier that it was but was shot down immediately when it came up in discussion a while ago at my local
Quote from: Boycey on March 18, 2019, 09:35:36 PM
Has it been confirmed that it was an 18+ event? I thought I saw on here and other places earlier that it was but was shot down immediately when it came up in discussion a while ago at my local
Yes it was an 18+ event. The greenvale always had a liberal attitude with regards age. That's why it's so popular amongst 16-17 year olds.
Fair enough tbrick I took it down. It's still what I believe but probably a bit soon.
Heart breaking. Have been thinking of all involved since I read it first last nite on Twitter. The Greenvale was always a much loved hotspot for us back in the day and for something like that to happen is just beyond belief.
Then hearing about the mother of 3 on a hen in Carlingford as well as the road deaths, makes you appreciate what you have. Tragedy has visited far too many families this weekend. I know I hugged my two wee ones a bit tighter putting them to bed tonite.
Absolutely devastating tragedy. Like many in north Armagh I would have done a lot of teenage galavanting around Cookstown so something like this really resonates, especially as I know the family of one of the victims.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/03/19/news/family-of-cookstown-crush-victim-morgan-barnard-tell-of-their-devastation-1576144/
Sounded like a great child RIP Morgan
Had heard my dad wondering yesterday if this could be the same family of the teenager killed by UVF in a St Patricks Day bomb at McAleers bar.... turns out it is what a cruel coincidence!
The main problem is there is no underage disco's anymore, there used to be one in Omagh but then it closed so the Greenvale is the go to spot for the slack door policy.
Then you have the coach loads just landing around the same time and soon you have a couple of hundred people looking to get in. You never had this issue in our day as you had to make your own way.
Of course then there is the alcohol issue, i was in a local town about 8pm Sunday evening where two bus loads were heading off and some of the young ones didn't know where they were. Alot of drinkin done before they reach the Greenvale which doesn't help.
I suppose with St Patrick's falling on a weekend meant a lot of people were home instead of being up in Belfast.
It was just the making of a perfect storm.
Terrible thing for the families to deal with and hopefully lessons will be learned from it.
Terrible tragedy. Cannot even begin to imagine what the families are going through.
Like a lot of people on here Cookstown would have been a regular location for me back in the late nineties although strangely enough never to the Greenvale. Glenavon/Clubland were the normal destinations.
An awful tragedy. I had on occasion brought my daughter to sense for teenage discos but i've never been to this venue before. I simple cant fathom how a tragedy like this could occur while entering a nighclub.
Quote from: lurganblue on March 19, 2019, 10:29:12 AM
An awful tragedy. I had on occasion brought my daughter to sense for teenage discos but i've never been to this venue before. I simple cant fathom how a tragedy like this could occur while entering a nighclub.
My kids are too 'old' for the Greenvale now at 19 and 21. They said, however, that the pushing of the crowd has been going on for years at Christmas and Easter and any time that it's a really big night.
Such a terrible tragedy :-( :-(
Looks like a combination of errors/shortfalls have led to this. Terrible.
And if there was 400 outside the place thats shocking numbers....but how do ye control this if bus loads just turn up? Ticket only?
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on March 19, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Looks like a combination of errors/shortfalls have led to this. Terrible.
And if there was 400 outside the place thats shocking numbers....but how do ye control this if bus loads just turn up? Ticket only?
The buses are ticket only with prepaid entry to the Disco with the bus coordinator/ operator.
Quote from: TabClear on March 19, 2019, 10:24:23 AM
Terrible tragedy. Cannot even begin to imagine what the families are going through.
Like a lot of people on here Cookstown would have been a regular location for me back in the late nineties although strangely enough never to the Greenvale. Glenavon/Clubland were the normal destinations.
The Pink Pussycat. Those were the days.
There used to be buses to good venues back in my day. The Arena used to be a regular haunt of ours thanks to the two buses they ran from Lurgan. I used to bump into people I worked with in Belfast, they'd get a bus down from the Donegal Rd. And there were times when some of us would take matters into their own hands and organise buses to the likes of the Carrickdale. I'd rather have young ones getting buses to these places than ripping and tearing around the country in cars, plus the bus was always good crack and was as much a part of the night as the club itself.
Quote from: NAG1 on March 19, 2019, 03:46:44 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on March 19, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Looks like a combination of errors/shortfalls have led to this. Terrible.
And if there was 400 outside the place thats shocking numbers....but how do ye control this if bus loads just turn up? Ticket only?
The buses are ticket only with prepaid entry to the Disco with the bus coordinator/ operator.
Makes sense. 400odd outside is some crowd to be chancin their arms
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on March 19, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Looks like a combination of errors/shortfalls have led to this. Terrible.
And if there was 400 outside the place thats shocking numbers....but how do ye control this if bus loads just turn up? Ticket only?
2 at a time and having a pull cord type thing that left a space to one side that someone could duck under and turn back for any reason. It's easy to be wise after the event but I'm sure every nightclub in Ireland will be reviewing how they manage crowds.
http://www.workingwithcrowds.com/
Two men arrested on suspicion of corporate manslaughter
What is corporate manslaughter?
Quote from: Square Ball on March 19, 2019, 06:03:10 PM
What is corporate manslaughter?
Is the offence when an organisation has grossly breached their duty of care resulting in the death of an individual or individuals.
Not surprised. Didn't think it would happen as quickly, so I would assume the cctv is fairly damning on top of witness accounts.
I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.
Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something. Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests. Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.
I concur bcb1
Heard on the radio earlier that it was corporate manslaughter but anything I've read since says manslaughter.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on March 19, 2019, 06:03:10 PM
What is corporate manslaughter?
Is the offence when an organisation has grossly breached their duty of care resulting in the death of an individual or individuals.
Does this mean the organisation gets the penalty rather that the individuals/corporate officers?
Quote from: Ball Hopper on March 19, 2019, 07:47:42 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on March 19, 2019, 06:03:10 PM
What is corporate manslaughter?
Is the offence when an organisation has grossly breached their duty of care resulting in the death of an individual or individuals.
Does this mean the organisation gets the penalty rather that the individuals/corporate officers?
It's a little complicated and I'm not on expert on the subject but under that charge yes however it's often charged alongside breaches of health and safety regulations and depending on the corporate structure and the nature of the charge it's not impossible for individuals to be prosecuted although I understand it is rare.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on March 19, 2019, 07:47:42 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on March 19, 2019, 06:03:10 PM
What is corporate manslaughter?
Is the offence when an organisation has grossly breached their duty of care resulting in the death of an individual or individuals.
Does this mean the organisation gets the penalty rather that the individuals/corporate officers?
I can't recall the specifics from training at work and the legal lads here will know, but I think the organisation get the corporate manslaughter rap for gross breach of a duty of care and senior management may get a gross negligence rap if their practices led to the breach. Our place do a lot of awareness training on this to scare the shite out of people!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 19, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.
Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something. Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests. Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.
Disagree. I would have been dismayed if there was/were no arrest/s. That was a crime scene.
Firstly, deepest condolences to the familes and friends of the 3 teenagers. Absolutely shocking and really hits home as it could have happened to literally anyone, including myself or my friends at any venue in the country. I'm not going to point fingers without all the facts, but a serious review and changes need to happen with the way bouncers handle crowds at all night clubs. This keeping crowds outside for no reason needs to atop. If true that the doors were locked and people were refused to be let in when they were literally being crushed then thats absolutely shocking and horrifying. I hope justice is done and families can get some closure.
Quote from: moysider on March 19, 2019, 09:59:12 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 19, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.
Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something. Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests. Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.
Disagree. I would have been dismayed if there was/were no arrest/s. That was a crime scene.
It's a difficult one. Of course no one set out for this to happen, so its hard to blame bouncers etc but on the other hand having experienced the smug arsehole attitude of some bouncers, you'd want them get the rap (if indeed they are to blame in this case.)
It seems to have been corrected to be manslaughter as opposed to corporate manslaughter. (It is stated "on suspicion of" rather than being charged with it).
From the BBC site.
One of the men arrested, Michael McElhatton, is the owner of the Greenvale Hotel in Cookstown where the incident happened on Sunday.
No surprise given the definition of corporate manslaughter and what Ball Hopper posted
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 19, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 19, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
I'm surprised it was necessary to arrest anyone I would have thought these matters could have been handled by voluntary interviews. Particularly given the charge.
Political and social pressure to be seen to be doing something. Surely a better way would be to allow the families to have their time and carry out a thorough investigation and then make the arrests. Only my opinion of course but an arrest seems a wee bit like a knee-jerk reaction.
Yeah, totally agree
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
I did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. Lots of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
Quote from: Square Ball on March 19, 2019, 10:19:44 PM
From the BBC site.
One of the men arrested, Michael McElhatton, is the owner of the Greenvale Hotel in Cookstown where the incident happened on Sunday.
No surprise given the definition of corporate manslaughter and what Ball Hopper posted
It's been corrected by bbc. Manslaughter not corporate manslaughter.
I dont want to say too much but have heard a rumour that CCTV will be pretty damning on one bouncer for sure. Hope what I'm hearing is wrong.
https://www.sia.homeoffice.gov.uk/Pages/training-ds.aspx
Queue and crowd management forms a part of the training that the Door Supervisor undertakes.
It will be interesting to hear if the staff on duty were employed directly by the hotel and whether or not they were suitably licenced with the proper training.
Quote from: tbrick18 on March 19, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
LotsI did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
The organisers of the event were responsible for the wellbeing of those that attended - regardless of starting time. The owner of the property is responsible as well, for the wellbeing of people on his property, even if he was not the prime organiser of the event? This was a terrible thing to happen but it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence. That some kids were drinking has nothing got to do with it.
Quote from: tbrick18 on March 19, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
I did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. Lots of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
See hes come out to say he's ok and it's not true. I would love to know who starts crap like this. Is it to get a kick out of it or what?
Good point though about keeping an eye on ones.
What's that all about lads?
A rumour had been flying about from early evening that a young person had taken their own life. Thankfully it seems to have been false but horrific to think how this kind of thing gets passed around. How does it even start?
The point I was making about the arrest is that it has to be necessary to meet a certain condition. I was speculating to a degree but I can't think which of the conditions were likely to have necessitated an arrest. I would have thought anyone the police would have wanted to speak to would have attended voluntarily. If the suspected offence was manslaughter rather than corporate manslaughter then my thoughts might be somewhat different.
Quote from: moysider on March 19, 2019, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on March 19, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
LotsI did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
The organisers of the event were responsible for the wellbeing of those that attended - regardless of starting time. The owner of the property is responsible as well, for the wellbeing of people on his property, even if he was not the prime organiser of the event? This was a terrible thing to happen but it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence. That some kids were drinking has nothing got to do with it.
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Quote from: moysider on March 19, 2019, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on March 19, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
LotsI did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
The organisers of the event were responsible for the wellbeing of those that attended - regardless of starting time. The owner of the property is responsible as well, for the wellbeing of people on his property, even if he was not the prime organiser of the event? This was a terrible thing to happen but it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence. That some kids were drinking has nothing got to do with it.
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Quote from: moysider on March 19, 2019, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on March 19, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
LotsI did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
The organisers of the event were responsible for the wellbeing of those that attended - regardless of starting time. The owner of the property is responsible as well, for the wellbeing of people on his property, even if he was not the prime organiser of the event? This was a terrible thing to happen but it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence. That some kids were drinking has nothing got to do with it.
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
Thats the exact reason why many kids wont come forward with evidence or wont meet up with the police.
It wasnt just 10 or 15 kids pushing - the number was significantly higher
Quote from: Taylor on March 20, 2019, 08:19:24 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Quote from: moysider on March 19, 2019, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on March 19, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
I won't pretend to know anything about the legalities of it all, but I do know that current setup in terms of layout of the Greenvale has been like that for quite a few years. I would imagine this had to have been passed by building control and assessed by the council for health and safety. So if the council had given it the seal of approval, the establishment is probably in the clear legally from that point of view.
How things were handled on the night when the situation started is different and without knowing what anyone did or didn't do, guessing is not helpful.
LotsI did hear today from a teacher in one of the schools that the event didn't start until 9.30. Buses however were dropping kids off from before 8. of them with alcohol. So they were perhaps in the car park for 1-2 hours before the incident happened and some at least were drinking. I'm not sure what onus is on the hotel to cater for or be responsible for supervising that. Perhaps they are responsible for managing that? I have no idea.
As for the two arrests, I would think this would be standard practice for something like this would it not? Just to give the authorities the mechanism for asking the questions and proper grounds for prosecution if deemed necessary.
To really make things worse, some very worrying news in the Dungannon area tonight. If anyone is from the area or has children in any way linked to the schools or the events of the weekend, please keep a very close eye on them. There are some very distressed children at the moment and children in distress can make some very rash decisions.
The organisers of the event were responsible for the wellbeing of those that attended - regardless of starting time. The owner of the property is responsible as well, for the wellbeing of people on his property, even if he was not the prime organiser of the event? This was a terrible thing to happen but it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence. That some kids were drinking has nothing got to do with it.
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
Thats the exact reason why many kids wont come forward with evidence or wont meet up with the police.
It wasnt just 10 or 15 kids pushing - the number was significantly higher
If you have crowd control you reduce the risk of shoving turning into a tragedy. I'll reiterate my earlier point - the purpose of "bouncers" is not to act like a hard man, which seems to be the prevailing attitide, but to act as security to ensure the safety of everyone. It is the owner's responsibility to ensure it is done properly.
Quote from: Armagh18 on March 19, 2019, 10:01:16 PM
Firstly, deepest condolences to the familes and friends of the 3 teenagers. Absolutely shocking and really hits home as it could have happened to literally anyone, including myself or my friends at any venue in the country. I'm not going to point fingers without all the facts, but a serious review and changes need to happen with the way bouncers handle crowds at all night clubs. This keeping crowds outside for no reason needs to atop. If true that the doors were locked and people were refused to be let in when they were literally being crushed then thats absolutely shocking and horrifying. I hope justice is done and families can get some closure.
Was the venue not already full. That was my understanding. They have a duty of care to not over-fill it either.
No. It hadn't opened
Quote from: Over the Bar on March 20, 2019, 08:40:39 AM
No. It hadn't opened
Are you sure. A neighbour of mine said she was inside and they knew something was going on but didn't know what.
Also that account that was given talks about people inside. News articles, though, do say it hadn't opened so there seem to be conflicting stories.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 20, 2019, 07:43:51 AM
The point I was making about the arrest is that it has to be necessary to meet a certain condition. I was speculating to a degree but I can't think which of the conditions were likely to have necessitated an arrest. I would have thought anyone the police would have wanted to speak to would have attended voluntarily. If the suspected offence was manslaughter rather than corporate manslaughter then my thoughts might be somewhat different.
Should have been done voluntarily.
If arrested should've been done at 9am....not late in the afternoon when they knew fine well they wouldn't have been finished interviewing by night.... Meaning they had to sleep in an empty police cell.... All this while the evidence still isn't collected...... A major police incident room has only just been set up
This whole incident is tragic... Like a horror movie. In my opinion the police have jumped the gun
RIP to the poor teenagers, god help their families and all the ones who witnessed and are affected by it
We are all shocked and rattled by it
Quote from: LeoMc on March 20, 2019, 08:46:02 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on March 20, 2019, 08:40:39 AM
No. It hadn't opened
Are you sure. A neighbour of mine said she was inside and they knew something was going on but didn't know what.
I'm not saying no-one was inside but my neighbours girl was there from before 9 and says the doors remained closed.
When we used to go you could also get in through the main hotel if drinking in the bar so maybe that's still the case.
Yeah surely the restaurant/bar could be open while the nightclub wasnt. The arriving at 8 for a place not opening to 930 was a recipe for disaster too
And the reports of banging of windows for help, it couldve been punters and not actual workers that didnt help;
All in all plenty of questions but doesnt change what happened..
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These
children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
Quote from: Over the Bar on March 20, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on March 20, 2019, 08:46:02 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on March 20, 2019, 08:40:39 AM
No. It hadn't opened
Are you sure. A neighbour of mine said she was inside and they knew something was going on but didn't know what.
I'm not saying no-one was inside but my neighbours girl was there from before 9 and says the doors remained closed.
When we used to go you could also get in through the main hotel if drinking in the bar so maybe that's still the case.
AFAIK doors hadn't opened - the people talking about being inside and looking out where in the reception area. No windows on the front view into the dance hall.
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Have to agree with this - now that's certainly not in any way saying the people who died tragically are in any way attributed to that.
Perhaps this is youthful immaturity got out of hand....one pushes, then another.....5 minutes later disaster? It could really be that simple.
Obviously final responsibility comes onto the Security Company and Venue. That's for the courts to decide if they go down that path - We would all be guessing, without the information at present.
There was a Tyrone company in the 00s that had to pay about 50k as a direct result of a death if I remember correctly under 'corporate manslaughter'. I don't think a jail term has ever been handed out as a result of it.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
The incident was cause by lack of security at an event. see the young girls facebook post.... it was the children who where trying to save the lives of other children.
So your saying all children where drunk?? including the victims?
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Exactly. This incident was caused by people pushing and they will likely get off scot-free. It became a tragedy because of bad layout and bad management and it is entirely appropriate that there is a thorough investigation as to why.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Have to agree with this - now that's certainly not in any way saying the people who died tragically are in any way attributed to that.
Perhaps this is youthful immaturity got out of hand....one pushes, then another.....5 minutes later disaster? It could really be that simple.
Obviously final responsibility comes onto the Security Company and Venue. That's for the courts to decide if they go down that path - We would all be guessing, without the information at present.
There was a Tyrone company in the 00s that had to pay about 50k as a direct result of a death if I remember correctly under 'corporate manslaughter'. I don't think a jail term has ever been handed out as a result of it.
Without the facts, it's unfair to point the finger at anyone, that includes the hotel staff, owner, kids, bouncers, bus companies etc.
My own personal feeling is that there could be a portion of responsibility to all of these.
Comparing with Hillsborough is just wrong....no-one granted entry to too many people into a confined space in this instance. The kids were in a huge car part, 400 people would be lost in it. There was no lack of space, so the only thing we know for sure is that there was a queue with pushing and shoving and that resulted in tragic loss of life. We also know that some of the kids were drinking and had been there for some time before the doors were due to open. So its very possible drink was a factor. We know there was pushing and shoving, perhaps deliberate (perhaps drunken) carry on or perhaps accidental and we know there were 3 deaths and it seems it has been fortunate there were not more deaths. We don't know what staff did/didn't do, apart from reports of the owner giving CPR. We don't know what crowd control measures were or were not in place before the event.
It also should be said that the online post from the girl who was there talking about people inside doing nothing should not be considered as guaranteed fact. That view is from her perspective, she would have had no way of telling what staff did on seeing that.
Reports of the emergency services arriving within minutes, suggests staff called them.
I just think everyone needs to be careful about pointing the finger without the facts as it could influence any legal proceedings and possibly leave those families with more questions than answers. I'm sure all staff will feel responsible, as will bus companies dropping off a load of kids with drink, as will parents and anyone involved in pushing. There's no winners in this and I would hate to see anyone being tarnished with blame before the facts are out.
Quote from: armaghniac on March 20, 2019, 10:35:17 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Exactly. This incident was caused by people pushing and they will likely get off scot-free. It became a tragedy because of bad layout and bad management and it is entirely appropriate that there is a thorough investigation as to why.
That's the whole point of crowd control.
You put barriers and a system in place so that the possibility of pushing, or at least the possibility of pushing causing injury or death, is eliminated.
If crowds are not controlled, some people will always push - people may push in any situation, no matter the layout.
It's up to those who own and administer the venue to eliminate the possibility any pushing can result in injury or death.
If they don't, there has to be consequences.
Quote from: armaghniac on March 20, 2019, 10:35:17 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Exactly. This incident was caused by people pushing and they will likely get off scot-free. It became a tragedy because of bad layout and bad management and it is entirely appropriate that there is a thorough investigation as to why.
I find it unbelievable that people would want to vilify children, without knowing the full facts of what went on.
The mentality of some people on this board beggars belief.
While I understand emotions are high, it is important that a full investigation is carried out and only then people should comment on the cause, when the facts have been established.
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
I agree stupid statement blowing it out of proportion its very sad what happened and how it has went wrong but saying many of them teenagers having taken cocaine is ridiculous.
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.
Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
Quote from: belfastsaff on March 20, 2019, 11:03:09 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
I agree stupid statement blowing it out of proportion its very sad what happened and how it has went wrong but saying many of them teenagers having taken cocaine is ridiculous.
Absolutely idiotic to mention this
Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.
Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
Yeah I'm in agreement
Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.
Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
+1
And whilst the cocaine claim is completely unsubstantiated, drugs are absolutely everywhere at the moment and are a serious problem with a large number of young people.
Yup. Cocaine line a bit silly as theres any number of drugs out and about but dont condemn the mans post for one point...
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 20, 2019, 11:14:39 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.
Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
+1
And whilst the cocaine claim is completely unsubstantiated, drugs are absolutely everywhere at the moment and are a serious problem with a large number of young people.
Because of what women wear on hen nights it shows virtually all of our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol :o
400 kids in the car park of the ages of 16 and under?
Aligned with the cocaine comment there are at least 3 bits of complete nonsense in this post
I worked the doors for years and the amount of cocaine use is through the roof.
I've seen it with my own eyes
Cocaine and alcohol do not mix. Its a horrible combination.
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.
That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.
That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.
100% Great post Sid.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.
Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
You have to have crowd control if you are going to permit throngs of people to congregate awaiting entry to your business. Even more so when there's drink involved. And even more so on top of that when you're dealing with kids, who have little enough sense individually and even less as a group.
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.
Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.
It only took a google search to show your post for what it was. Bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcDqh8pUWlc
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.
That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.
Well said - Best post on this yet ..... shame on the people blaming children for this and mentioning drugs. And for people to say everyone was drunk is disgraceful. The children that died are as likely to have not been drinking as they are to have been drinking all I know is from the reports coming out about them they where kids of great character and a credit to their parents and upbringing!!! May they Rest in Peace!
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:53:14 AM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.
Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.
It only took a google search to show your post for what it was. Bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcDqh8pUWlc
Don't believe all the propaganda you read on the internet. https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q) (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
Quote from: Antrim Coaster on March 20, 2019, 11:31:28 AM
I worked the doors for years and the amount of cocaine use is through the roof.
I've seen it with my own eyes
Cocaine and alcohol do not mix. Its a horrible combination.
What 16/17 year olds can afford Coke? It's about 50 quid a gram.
I do not mean to shock, or to be 'George Hook' esque in my comments, but anyone who would seek to deny that cocaine is not in general use among young people on nights out really ought to take a look at themselves. it is now actually cheaper than drink, leaves no smell of the breath and effects have worn off before you get home. What I am saying is that the responsibility for this tragedy lies deep in the heart of our collective culture and how we turn a blind eye to the rites of passage events that young people are engaged in. And we really do need to take a long hard look at ourselves around how we behave on St. Patrick's day. Excessive alcohol use seems to be part of the norm in Ireland. I am not trying to lay the blame at the deceased; I believe they were just small people at the front of the queue who had nowhere to escape from the stampede, but at what stage do we actually ask teenagers to take responsibility for their own behaviour and refrain from arriving at an over 18 event drunk and disorderly and at what stage do we ask parents how much they know about their children faking ID and taking illegal substances and at what stage do we stop the nonsense of buses being booked by young people who then take money off about fifty of their mates to go to one of these discoes with no supervision, or no oversight. Before we arrest the owner of a hotel, perhaps we might address these systemic holes in our night time culture and allow at least something good to come of this carnage.
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.
That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.
That is not what the emphasis of his post was about, it was general observation on the culture that now exists whereby any night out is accompanied by alcohol. I have a son who is 16, I agreed to let him go on bus to one of these events, he reported back the bus was full of drink, they were all 15/16/17 year olds, needless to say he never got any bus again, and that's the main point. The drink and drug culture
The emphasis of the post is to attempt to shift the blame onto the victims with weasel words and a giant red herring.
Exactly the same as what George Hook did when talking about a rape victim and exactly the same as what happened after Hillsborough.
Alcohol was not in any way to blame for these deaths.
Lack of crowd control was.
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 12:09:38 PM
I do not mean to shock, or to be 'George Hook' esque in my comments, but anyone who would seek to deny that cocaine is not in general use among young people on nights out really ought to take a look at themselves. it is now actually cheaper than drink, leaves no smell of the breath and effects have worn off before you get home. What I am saying is that the responsibility for this tragedy lies deep in the heart of our collective culture and how we turn a blind eye to the rites of passage events that young people are engaged in. And we really do need to take a long hard look at ourselves around how we behave on St. Patrick's day. Excessive alcohol use seems to be part of the norm in Ireland. I am not trying to lay the blame at the deceased; I believe they were just small people at the front of the queue who had nowhere to escape from the stampede, but at what stage do we actually ask teenagers to take responsibility for their own behaviour and refrain from arriving at an over 18 event drunk and disorderly and at what stage do we ask parents how much they know about their children faking ID and taking illegal substances and at what stage do we stop the nonsense of buses being booked by young people who then take money off about fifty of their mates to go to one of these discoes with no supervision, or no oversight. Before we arrest the owner of a hotel, perhaps we might address these systemic holes in our night time culture and allow at least something good to come of this carnage.
More nonsense - cocaine is not cheaper than drink.
Care to clarify your other comment........namely 400 children of 16 or under?
Seany - I understand this is a sensitive subject but you seem to be trying to transfer blame here
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Why can this not be compared to Hillsborough and if it can't why are all media outlets getting Phil Scratons views on it. He was very definitive on what the questions need to be asked and he doesn't mention the children being the problem.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/03/19/news/phil-scraton-says-questions-will-be-asked-in-the-coming-days-about-crowd-safety-1576011/
"In all situations involving people going out for a night out there is a responsibility to put their safety to the forefront,"
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 12:02:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:53:14 AM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.
It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.
London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.
Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.
It only took a google search to show your post for what it was. Bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcDqh8pUWlc
Don't believe all the propaganda you read on the internet. https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q) (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.
In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 12:30:44 PM
Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.
In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.
Says the boy who cited a YouTube video as "proof" that there's no overcrowding on the Tube. ::)
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429
Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.
I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 10:32:04 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
The incident was cause by lack of security at an event. see the young girls facebook post.... it was the children who where trying to save the lives of other children.
So your saying all children where drunk?? including the victims?
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor. Please re-read what I said, the ones pushing and shoving most likely had drink taken. We were all that age once and not many have a button of sense when you're airlocked at 16/17 years of age. I've been in secnarios like that at nightclubs when I was younger, even in school where you've a big group and pushing and shoving takes place in a confined space. Obviously the last thing that crosses their mind is that it might cause serious injury or a fatality. The same way it doesn't cross the mind of a 16/17 year old when they take the parents yock out for a spin and write the car off injuring or killing their mates.
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Why can this not be compared to Hillsborough and if it can't why are all media outlets getting Phil Scratons views on it. He was very definitive on what the questions need to be asked and he doesn't mention the children being the problem.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/03/19/news/phil-scraton-says-questions-will-be-asked-in-the-coming-days-about-crowd-safety-1576011/
"In all situations involving people going out for a night out there is a responsibility to put their safety to the forefront,"
Well you can go and compare the two all you want, I'd argue that the failings at Hillsborough were a lot more explicit from the outset than what happened over the weekend not too mention completely different circumstances. They're maybe getting his views because he's a leading academic on crowd control, does not mention Hillsborough anywhere else other than to say his work led him to be involved with the independent panel investigating it.
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
Why can this not be compared to Hillsborough and if it can't why are all media outlets getting Phil Scratons views on it. He was very definitive on what the questions need to be asked and he doesn't mention the children being the problem.
Hillsborough had actions that lead to the problem inside the venue.
Media talk about it because it is well known and because they are hard put to find an example of a fatal crush in an open car park outside a disco.
Quote
"In all situations involving people going out for a night out there is a responsibility to put their safety to the forefront,"
No doubt about this.
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 12:30:44 PM
Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.
In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.
Says the boy who cited a YouTube video as "proof" that there's no overcrowding on the Tube. ::)
Its a BBC report that details some of the measures that go in to controlling crowds on the London Underground. It is not a 'YouTube Video'
It quite clearly debunks your theory that everyone takes personal responsibility for crowd control on one the World's busiest underground systems.
I am pleading with you to go off and educate yourself.
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
The relationship of Irish young people with alcohol is an entirely irrelevant subject in this discussion.
Every night, up and down the country, and particularly at weekends, people go out and get drunk. We all do it or have done it.
Most of us have drunk and got drunk when we were 15 or 16. A switch doesn't magically flick on your 18th birthday to make you more responsible in your drinking habits.
Whether you like this or not, it is a fact. It almost certainly isn't going to change.
We accept as a society that there are such things as pubs, clubs and other venues - concerts, and now football matches etc., where alcohol is served, and that people will drink as a way of enhancing their enjoyment. It is up to the people who run venues where alcohol is served to make these venues safe.
We legislate in the knowledge that people can and will do stupid things, and we also legislate in the knowledge that sometimes, if things are not legislated for, situations can arise which spiral out of the control of any one individual. We legislate so that such potentially tragic situations can be avoided.
We don't say "ah, shure run any oul' set up, it doesn't matter if it's dangerous, if anybody gets hurt because a venue is dangerous it's their own responsibility for entering it." We don't say "as soon as a drop of alcohol passes your mouth, you are entirely liable for anything untoward that may happen you".
We say "it's the responsibility of the venue to ensure that people can drink in safety, and move around and be safe at all times".
It is up to our legislators to enact laws which minimise any harm which people under the influence of alcohol can have happen to them, or do to others. That's why we have drink driving laws. It's why being under the influence of alcohol is not a defence for a crime.
We don't say, "ah shure, grand, get drunk and drive away off home there", and then when somebody gets killed, say, "no, no, the lack of drink driving laws are not responsible here, drink driving doesn't kill people, we must protect the right to drink drive". Otherwise we wouldn't have such laws.
The alternative is to do what reactionary right-wing nutcases do in the US as regards stopping any sort of sensible gun laws.
Reactionary right-wing "libertarian" politics, as always, blames the victim. Reactionary right-wing politics preaches "personal responsibility" in a general sense, yet when the personal responsibility of the people who really are personally responsible is found to be wanting, it always shifts to blame the victim or deflect blame away to something else rather than what is actually responsible.
That's true of rape cases, it's true of Hillsborough, it's true of Bloody Sunday, it's true of US gun laws, it's true of the Christchurch massacre, it's true of this tragic case.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor.
I see you're changing your angle now. The fact in your original post you choose to pick out the children pushing from the first hand account on facebook and not that there was a lack of support from any of the security staff says to me you where shifting blame away from the hotel security to the children involved and therefore denying lack of security. If half the rumours (which I wont post for obvious reasons) I have heard about what security where up to when this was going on are true.... I hope the idiots on hear blaming children front up and apologise.
Quote from: Boycey on March 20, 2019, 11:13:57 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.
Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
Yeah I'm in agreement
Me too.
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
An absolutely disgraceful and disgusting post. You need help and need it quickly. What sort of thoughts are going through your head to put something like that in print!!!
Are you a parent? If yes, then thank f**k I don't know you
Dreadful post !!!
Few people losing the run of themselves on here. Theres a change. Yis mitent agree with it all but to say its all bollocks is, well bollocks
If anyone thinks the Irish have a good relationship with alcohol then theres not much to say. Generalisation i know. Take a scoot out some night round a big town and have a gander.
Likewise if people know their children have fake IDs, is that ok? I dont think Seany was necessarily apportioning blame just pointing stuff out, as i am
But anyways, must go, feelings are high, which is understandable
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 01:00:44 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
The relationship of Irish young people with alcohol is an entirely irrelevant subject in this discussion.
Every night, up and down the country, and particularly at weekends, people go out and get drunk. We all do it or have done it.
Most of us have drunk and got drunk when we were 15 or 16. A switch doesn't magically flick on your 18th birthday to make you more responsible in your drinking habits.
Whether you like this or not, it is a fact. It almost certainly isn't going to change.
We accept as a society that there are such things as pubs, clubs and other venues - concerts, and now football matches etc., where alcohol is served, and that people will drink as a way of enhancing their enjoyment. It is up to the people who run venues where alcohol is served to make these venues safe.
We legislate in the knowledge that people can and will do stupid things, and we also legislate in the knowledge that sometimes, if things are not legislated for, situations can arise which spiral out of the control of any one individual. We legislate so that such potentially tragic situations can be avoided.
We don't say "ah, shure run any oul' set up, it doesn't matter if it's dangerous, if anybody gets hurt because a venue is dangerous it's their own responsibility for entering it." We don't say "as soon as a drop of alcohol passes your mouth, you are entirely liable for anything untoward that may happen you".
We say "it's the responsibility of the venue to ensure that people can drink in safety, and move around and be safe at all times".
It is up to our legislators to enact laws which minimise any harm which people under the influence of alcohol can have happen to them, or do to others. That's why we have drink driving laws. It's why being under the influence of alcohol is not a defence for a crime.
We don't say, "ah shure, grand, get drunk and drive away off home there", and then when somebody gets killed, say, "no, no, the lack of drink driving laws are not responsible here, drink driving doesn't kill people, we must protect the right to drink drive". Otherwise we wouldn't have such laws.
The alternative is to do what reactionary right-wing nutcases do in the US as regards stopping any sort of sensible gun laws.
Reactionary right-wing "libertarian" politics, as always, blames the victim. Reactionary right-wing politics preaches "personal responsibility" in a general sense, yet when the personal responsibility of the people who really are personally responsible is found to be wanting, it always shifts to blame the victim or deflect blame away to something else rather than what is actually responsible.
That's true of rape cases, it's true of Hillsborough, it's true of Bloody Sunday, it's true of US gun laws, it's true of the Christchurch massacre, it's true of this tragic case.
I know nothing of this particular incident in Cookstown other than what is available in the media and if you think I was apportioning blame on the kids and the parents for what happened then you are misreading my intentions and yes, it is probably irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread and I accept that.
I was passing social comment on our unhealthy relationship with alcohol, especially at the early teens, nothing more, nothing less. You're happy with that then that's fine but I'm not although I'm in the minority by the sounds of it.
It's a bit like the gun control debate in the US in so much as its so far gone we can do nothing to change it.
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 01:00:44 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
The relationship of Irish young people with alcohol is an entirely irrelevant subject in this discussion.
Every night, up and down the country, and particularly at weekends, people go out and get drunk. We all do it or have done it.
Most of us have drunk and got drunk when we were 15 or 16. A switch doesn't magically flick on your 18th birthday to make you more responsible in your drinking habits.
Whether you like this or not, it is a fact. It almost certainly isn't going to change.
We accept as a society that there are such things as pubs, clubs and other venues - concerts, and now football matches etc., where alcohol is served, and that people will drink as a way of enhancing their enjoyment. It is up to the people who run venues where alcohol is served to make these venues safe.
We legislate in the knowledge that people can and will do stupid things, and we also legislate in the knowledge that sometimes, if things are not legislated for, situations can arise which spiral out of the control of any one individual. We legislate so that such potentially tragic situations can be avoided.
We don't say "ah, shure run any oul' set up, it doesn't matter if it's dangerous, if anybody gets hurt because a venue is dangerous it's their own responsibility for entering it." We don't say "as soon as a drop of alcohol passes your mouth, you are entirely liable for anything untoward that may happen you".
We say "it's the responsibility of the venue to ensure that people can drink in safety, and move around and be safe at all times".
It is up to our legislators to enact laws which minimise any harm which people under the influence of alcohol can have happen to them, or do to others. That's why we have drink driving laws. It's why being under the influence of alcohol is not a defence for a crime.
We don't say, "ah shure, grand, get drunk and drive away off home there", and then when somebody gets killed, say, "no, no, the lack of drink driving laws are not responsible here, drink driving doesn't kill people, we must protect the right to drink drive". Otherwise we wouldn't have such laws.
The alternative is to do what reactionary right-wing nutcases do in the US as regards stopping any sort of sensible gun laws.
Reactionary right-wing "libertarian" politics, as always, blames the victim. Reactionary right-wing politics preaches "personal responsibility" in a general sense, yet when the personal responsibility of the people who really are personally responsible is found to be wanting, it always shifts to blame the victim or deflect blame away to something else rather than what is actually responsible.
That's true of rape cases, it's true of Hillsborough, it's true of Bloody Sunday, it's true of US gun laws, it's true of the Christchurch massacre, it's true of this tragic case.
I know nothing of this particular incident in Cookstown other than what is available in the media and if you think I was apportioning blame on the kids and the parents for what happened then you are misreading my intentions and yes, it is probably irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread and I accept that.
I was passing social comment on our unhealthy relationship with alcohol, especially at the early teens, nothing more, nothing less. You're happy with that then that's fine but I'm not although I'm in the minority by the sounds of it.
It's a bit like the gun control debate in the US in so much as its so far gone we can do nothing to change it.
I didn't say
you were apportioning blame to the victims or their parents.
But anybody who doesn't have a major issue with the post above yours would be doing so.
I'm saying that the issue of young people's relationship with alcohol is completely irrelevant in terms of what happened here, and any attempt to make it a focus of discussion spectacularly misses the point. It introduces a massive red herring, which can only cloud and distort discussion about the real and only issue at hand as regards this disaster.
The issue here is the lack of crowd control. That's the
only issue - as was the case at Hillsborough.
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429
Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.
I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.
Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
Yup I agree. The government certainly won't be shouting stop. Their way of handling it is put the price up.
If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses. If people want to drink, there's the pub. And if you're not 18, then you won't be drinking. There's your underage drinking stopped in a second.
We all know this won't happen though. But if you're serious about dealing with drink, it's the only W method.
100% agree that it is a failure of a risk control system that has caused this, the other factors are contributory but very much secondary.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
Yup I agree. The government certainly won't be shouting stop. Their way of handling it is put the price up.
If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses. If people want to drink, there's the pub. And if you're not 18, then you won't be drinking. There's your underage drinking stopped in a second.
We all know this won't happen though. But if you're serious about dealing with drink, it's the only W method.
And there you go - 3 teenagers crushed to death and the thread has now turned into a solve irelands alcohol problem
Mission accomplished for the idiots who want to divert away from the fact that three children died!!!!!
Forgetting about the horrible tragedy in Cookstown for a moment
People/parents/kids and owners of such venues all have a responsibility to look after people
Letting your child out knowing you've bought them booze, arranged photo ID and knowing fine well they were going to an over age disco is wrong legally never mind morally. I've done it and was allowed to do it when I was that age, now, thankfully me and my friends came back from such nights out with nothing more than a sore head, and in relation to my two daughters that was fine also, the eldest daughter is now over the age but I've put it to my youngest that such things won't be happening again
Owning a venue that's taking a booking for a school disco has to stopped (if this was the case) underage kids will go regardless and as an owner of such venue you are leaving yourself wide open.
Venues should all have queueing system, and if that's in the health and safety risk assessment then it has to be adhered to.
Buses allowing drink to be taken on their bus is also an issue, a lot harder to work out but it happens
Kids drinking on the streets outside a venue can be fixed, if the police had have been informed of that behaviour
Drink culture? Monkey sees monkey does, we are all responsible
There are a host of reasons that can lead to a disaster, very rarely will it be one single point. But very often it will be the owner who'll take the fall as the law will go after them as public opinion can be a factor.
I hope that from this there will a huge change in how everyone goes about their thinking as there a chain of events which has resulted in three young talented lives. Hopefully no one should have to go through something like that again.
And the point scoring shite on this page is disgusting
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.
No one wants to shout stop though.
Yup I agree. The government certainly won't be shouting stop. Their way of handling it is put the price up.
If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses. If people want to drink, there's the pub. And if you're not 18, then you won't be drinking. There's your underage drinking stopped in a second.
We all know this won't happen though. But if you're serious about dealing with drink, it's the only W method.
And there you go - 3 teenagers crushed to death and the thread has now turned into a solve irelands alcohol problem
Mission accomplished for the idiots who want to divert away from the fact that three children died!!!!!
No I didn't say underage or binge drinking was the cause of these kids deaths, nor was I inferring anything like that.. I was replying to original post on the country's general attitude towards alcohol.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses.
This post is certainly proof that there are no rules stopping the typing out of stupid opinions.
I understand you didnt Bennycake was not making a direct point to you..... making a point to a number of posters who have tried to divert it this way all day.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2019, 02:03:59 PM
Forgetting about the horrible tragedy in Cookstown for a moment
People/parents/kids and owners of such venues all have a responsibility to look after people
Letting your child out knowing you've bought them booze, arranged photo ID and knowing fine well they were going to an over age disco is wrong legally never mind morally. I've done it and was allowed to do it when I was that age, now, thankfully me and my friends came back from such nights out with nothing more than a sore head, and in relation to my two daughters that was fine also, the eldest daughter is now over the age but I've put it to my youngest that such things won't be happening again
Owning a venue that's taking a booking for a school disco has to stopped (if this was the case) underage kids will go regardless and as an owner of such venue you are leaving yourself wide open.
Venues should all have queueing system, and if that's in the health and safety risk assessment then it has to be adhered to.
Buses allowing drink to be taken on their bus is also an issue, a lot harder to work out but it happens
Kids drinking on the streets outside a venue can be fixed, if the police had have been informed of that behaviour
Drink culture? Monkey sees monkey does, we are all responsible
There are a host of reasons that can lead to a disaster, very rarely will it be one single point. But very often it will be the owner who'll take the fall as the law will go after them as public opinion can be a factor.
I hope that from this there will a huge change in how everyone goes about their thinking as there a chain of events which has resulted in three young talented lives. Hopefully no one should have to go through something like that again.
And the point scoring shite on this page is disgusting
Serious question - does the bit in bold actually happen?
In my time we would have sourced the booze from someone that looked over 18 or a lax pub/off license not parents and would never have dreamed of asking the parents to arrange photo ID
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 02:10:33 PM
I understand you didnt Bennycake was not making a direct point to you..... making a point to a number of posters who have tried to divert it this way all day.
Fair enough so
Fake IDs are the problem now, or something?
My word, what a lesson in how to miss the elephant in the room.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 02:10:26 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses.
This post is certainly proof that there are no rules stopping the typing out of stupid opinions.
What's stupid about it? Drink will still be available to those old enough to drink. Those who are not old enough to drink won't be drinking.
Will those posters who are suggesting that people are "blaming the kids" or trying to "divert from the fact that children died" please wind their necks. This is a very emotive subject and I dare say that nobody is purposefully attempting to lay the blame for this tragedy at the door of the kids themselves. To suggest that people are is exceptionally unhelpful and in my view deliberately misinterpreting what people are saying for the purpose of hyperbole. Perhaps the discussion about the ills of alcohol and drugs in Ireland is for another thread.
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429
Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.
I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.
Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
I did see your photo.
Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology? Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.
The amount of shit on this thread is unreal. 3 innocent children have lost their lives and some posters want to talk about fake IDs, blaming parents and children and closing off licences. Absolutely staggering.
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429
Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.
I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.
Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
I did see your photo.
Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology? Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.
I did and it contradicted nothing that I said. Of course the Tube has sophisticated crowd control measures - only a fool would argue otherwise - but my original point was that it has huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour, and that safety at those times depends to a large extent on individual behaviour, which is closely policed.
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 02:26:53 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429
Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.
I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.
Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
I did see your photo.
Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology? Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.
I did and it contradicted nothing that I said. Of course the Tube has sophisticated crowd control measures - only a fool would argue otherwise - but my original point was that it has huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour, and that safety at those times depends to a large extent on individual behaviour, which is closely policed.
No that is not what you said.
You said "It's only safe because people have manners." ONLY! ONLY!
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 02:26:53 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429
Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.
I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.
Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q (https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q)
I did see your photo.
Did you see the link I posted which includes a direct response from the mayor of London on how they manage crowds safely on the underground using a combination of planning and technology? Point being that its not just left up to the passengers "behaving" themselves as you suggested earlier.
I did and it contradicted nothing that I said. Of course the Tube has sophisticated crowd control measures - only a fool would argue otherwise - but my original point was that it has huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour, and that safety at those times depends to a large extent on individual behaviour, which is closely policed.
Indeed
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 02:32:46 PM
You said "It's only safe because people have manners." ONLY! ONLY!
You're nitpicking now. Read the totality of what I said, which included the point that if you don't have manners, you will be quickly lifted for it. But in confined spaces at rush hour, safety does depend on that.
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 02:32:46 PM
You said "It's only safe because people have manners." ONLY! ONLY!
You're nitpicking now. Read the totality of what I said, which included the point that if you don't have manners, you will be quickly lifted for it. But in confined spaces at rush hour, safety does depend on that.
Quickly lifted for it would indicate some form of policing of the crowd!
Quote from: LeoMc on March 20, 2019, 02:38:14 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 02:32:46 PM
You said "It's only safe because people have manners." ONLY! ONLY!
You're nitpicking now. Read the totality of what I said, which included the point that if you don't have manners, you will be quickly lifted for it. But in confined spaces at rush hour, safety does depend on that.
Quickly lifted for it would indicate some form of policing of the crowd!
Of course it does. For example, they're always taking beggars and drunks out of congested rush-hour areas. But if a large crowd got rowdy at at a given time, they'd be in bother. So the system does depend on the broad generality of people having manners.
Exactly if its safe because people have manners then why do they need safety plans, technology and close policing???
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 02:45:24 PM
Exactly if its safe because people have manners then why do they need safety plans, technology and close policing???
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 01:08:52 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor.
I see you're changing your angle now. The fact in your original post you choose to pick out the children pushing from the first hand account on facebook and not that there was a lack of support from any of the security staff says to me you where shifting blame away from the hotel security to the children involved and therefore denying lack of security. If half the rumours (which I wont post for obvious reasons) I have heard about what security where up to when this was going on are true.... I hope the idiots on hear blaming children front up and apologise.
It is literally the first thing that the girl mentions. She goes onto say that people continued to laugh and push while she screamed at the top of her lungs for them to stop. I don't have an "angle"; there are a range of people who are/could be responsible. That could range from the door staff, the hotel owner, the H&S officers at mid Ulster council, the bus hire companies to the wee c***ts at the back who continued to push. The three young people who lost their lives are totally blameless. It's a tragedy and obviously one that should have been avoided. Hopefully the families of the deceased get answers as to why this was allowed to happen.
So when a large crowd is in an area which has a proper safety plan and is monitored by experienced staff and police aided by technology, then they will behave as expected (have manners) in most cases and the ones that don't will be lifted?
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 01:08:52 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor.
I see you're changing your angle now. The fact in your original post you choose to pick out the children pushing from the first hand account on facebook and not that there was a lack of support from any of the security staff says to me you where shifting blame away from the hotel security to the children involved and therefore denying lack of security. If half the rumours (which I wont post for obvious reasons) I have heard about what security where up to when this was going on are true.... I hope the idiots on hear blaming children front up and apologise.
It is literally the first thing that the girl mentions. She goes onto say that people continued to laugh and push while she screamed at the top of her lungs for them to stop. I don't have an "angle"; there are a range of people who are/could be responsible. That could range from the door staff, the hotel owner, the H&S officers at mid Ulster council, the bus hire companies to the wee c***ts at the back who continued to push. The three young people who lost their lives are totally blameless. It's a tragedy and obviously one that should have been avoided. Hopefully the families of the deceased get answers as to why this was allowed to happen.
I am liking how your posts are evolving.... opposed to your first post which strangely left out a lot of key details.
Your right its the first thing she mentioned as it was the first thing that happened..... And it shouldn't have happened but had there been appropriate security it would have ended right there and then and then this thread about drinking wouldn't have started!
It is a matter of opinion but the biggest issue and the biggest point this girl was making was the lack of help and the fact that the children had to sort it out themselves in the end. The last paragraph is powerful and I think it is left until the end for a reason.
Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 03:03:41 PM
So when a large crowd is in an area which has a proper safety plan and is monitored by experienced staff and police aided by technology, then they will behave as expected (have manners) in most cases and the ones that don't will be lifted?
5 million people everyday using the London Underground, self policing themselves. How the world should be.
Seriously, lads.
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 03:11:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 01:08:52 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor.
I see you're changing your angle now. The fact in your original post you choose to pick out the children pushing from the first hand account on facebook and not that there was a lack of support from any of the security staff says to me you where shifting blame away from the hotel security to the children involved and therefore denying lack of security. If half the rumours (which I wont post for obvious reasons) I have heard about what security where up to when this was going on are true.... I hope the idiots on hear blaming children front up and apologise.
It is literally the first thing that the girl mentions. She goes onto say that people continued to laugh and push while she screamed at the top of her lungs for them to stop. I don't have an "angle"; there are a range of people who are/could be responsible. That could range from the door staff, the hotel owner, the H&S officers at mid Ulster council, the bus hire companies to the wee c***ts at the back who continued to push. The three young people who lost their lives are totally blameless. It's a tragedy and obviously one that should have been avoided. Hopefully the families of the deceased get answers as to why this was allowed to happen.
I am liking how your posts are evolving.... opposed to your first post which strangely left out a lot of key details.
Your right its the first thing she mentioned as it was the first thing that happened..... And it shouldn't have happened but had there been appropriate security it would have ended right there and then and then this thread about drinking wouldn't have started!
It is a matter of opinion but the biggest issue and the biggest point this girl was making was the lack of help and the fact that the children had to sort it out themselves in the end. The last paragraph is powerful and I think it is left until the end for a reason.
Maybe because my original response was to you making ridiculous comparisons to Hillsborough. Nothing strange about that. There's still more to come from this (if your rumours are to be believed) and maybe some of us (including myself) should stop posting on the topic for while.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 03:11:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 01:08:52 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor.
I see you're changing your angle now. The fact in your original post you choose to pick out the children pushing from the first hand account on facebook and not that there was a lack of support from any of the security staff says to me you where shifting blame away from the hotel security to the children involved and therefore denying lack of security. If half the rumours (which I wont post for obvious reasons) I have heard about what security where up to when this was going on are true.... I hope the idiots on hear blaming children front up and apologise.
It is literally the first thing that the girl mentions. She goes onto say that people continued to laugh and push while she screamed at the top of her lungs for them to stop. I don't have an "angle"; there are a range of people who are/could be responsible. That could range from the door staff, the hotel owner, the H&S officers at mid Ulster council, the bus hire companies to the wee c***ts at the back who continued to push. The three young people who lost their lives are totally blameless. It's a tragedy and obviously one that should have been avoided. Hopefully the families of the deceased get answers as to why this was allowed to happen.
I am liking how your posts are evolving.... opposed to your first post which strangely left out a lot of key details.
Your right its the first thing she mentioned as it was the first thing that happened..... And it shouldn't have happened but had there been appropriate security it would have ended right there and then and then this thread about drinking wouldn't have started!
It is a matter of opinion but the biggest issue and the biggest point this girl was making was the lack of help and the fact that the children had to sort it out themselves in the end. The last paragraph is powerful and I think it is left until the end for a reason.
Maybe because my original response was to you making ridiculous comparisons to Hillsborough. Nothing strange about that. There's still more to come from this (if your rumours are to be believed) and maybe some of us (including myself) should stop posting on the topic for while.
I accept your right to stop posting on it - but I still don't think Hillsborough is a ridiculous comparison and I still believe you tried to shift blame in your first post.
The 52 yr old man has been rearrested after house search found drugs.
Posted without comment.....
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on March 20, 2019, 04:10:19 PM
The 52 yr old man has been rearrested after house search found drugs.
Posted without comment.....
Not good!!! McElhatton is well known around Mid Ulster and well respected, there was a lot of support for him after this even given the obvious failings...
If this is true that he had intent to supply then I'd imagine that support will disappear fast!!
Gettin messy.
And a bit like this thread all gettin away from the fact that 3 young people are dead. And i know ive contributed so gonna try leave it at that for a bit.
Police investigating the deaths of three teenagers in Cookstown say a 52 year old man arrested on suspicion of manslaughter has been further arrested on suspicion of possession of a Class A drug with intent to supply.
It follows a house search in Moneymore.
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
This is a great point.
I started my drinking career at 16. My nephew came along years later and did the same, but with a difference. In my day the drinking was done out of sight of our parents or any adult supervision, usually behind a hedge in a field near some off-license where they didn't check IDs. When my nephew started drinking, it was around the pool table in my brother's garage with his friends. Not directly under supervision, but close enough for his parents to keep tabs on things if necessary, which is enough to stop anything from getting out of hand. I think his way was better.
I don't think the age at which people start drinking is the issue, I think it's more important that alcohol is consumed in a responsible manner, which means in a responsible quantity and for social reasons rather than substance abuse reasons.
https://news.causewaycoastcommunity.co.uk/local-news/man-further-arrested-following-the-deaths-of-three-teenagers-in-cookstown/
Anyone heard of this news site? Is it reputable???
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on March 20, 2019, 04:17:27 PM
Gettin messy.
And a bit like this thread all gettin away from the fact that 3 young people are dead. And i know ive contributed so gonna try leave it at that for a bit.
Agreed - I'm out - its hard to understand - I had defended Mickey in previous posts so don't want to say anymore.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 04:25:49 PM
https://news.causewaycoastcommunity.co.uk/local-news/man-further-arrested-following-the-deaths-of-three-teenagers-in-cookstown/
Anyone heard of this news site? Is it reputable???
It's on PSNI social media anyway.
Unbelievable.
Quote from: clarshack on March 20, 2019, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 04:25:49 PM
https://news.causewaycoastcommunity.co.uk/local-news/man-further-arrested-following-the-deaths-of-three-teenagers-in-cookstown/
Anyone heard of this news site? Is it reputable???
It's on PSNI social media anyway.
Unbelievable.
What the hell is going on in the world. I can't get over this.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 04:47:15 PM
Quote from: clarshack on March 20, 2019, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 04:25:49 PM
https://news.causewaycoastcommunity.co.uk/local-news/man-further-arrested-following-the-deaths-of-three-teenagers-in-cookstown/
Anyone heard of this news site? Is it reputable???
It's on PSNI social media anyway.
Unbelievable.
What the hell is going on in the world. I can't get over this.
My mate had an 18th birthday party for his daughter in their house and afterwards there was joint party with 2 other girls in a pub function room. He was shocked at the amount of people who were coked up to the eyeballs-17 and 18 year olds. Late night a huge row broke out and the Guards were called. All this happened in a small town in the west of Ireland
The finding of Class A drugs will be a complete separate trial to the manslaughter one I take it.
One case wont have an effect on the other will it?
Another genuine question - why would they have been searching his house? Could he have spilled on himself possessing drugs or was it likely his house was searched anyway?
Whether this man supplies or supplied drugs to anybody or not is utterly irrelevant to what happened on Sunday night.
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
If you've ever queued to get in to a nightclub you'll know theres always an element of pushing and shoving, people get caught up and think its great craic, except this time it's tragically gone too far. None of the lads at the back who were pushing set put to hurt anyone of course and I'm sure they are feeling absolutely horrible about whats happened.
Quote from: belfastsaff on March 20, 2019, 11:03:09 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general. The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it. 400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood. We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco. If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park? Why did parents let them out? Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age? The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'., This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.
what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part
I agree stupid statement blowing it out of proportion its very sad what happened and how it has went wrong but saying many of them teenagers having taken cocaine is ridiculous.
Not that ridiculous to be honest, go out in any towm and you'll see plenty of it.
Quote from: Armagh18 on March 20, 2019, 05:12:35 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
If you've ever queued to get in to a nightclub you'll know theres always an element of pushing and shoving, people get caught up and think its great craic, except this time it's tragically gone too far. None of the lads at the back who were pushing set put to hurt anyone of course and I'm sure they are feeling absolutely horrible about whats happened.
This is exactly what has happened for me. On the head. Tragic accident that's got out of hand and looks to be great craic completely unknowingly the root cause.
As for the drugs thing - it's a house owned by McElhatton....it's not his own home house. EDIT - This is what I heard, not proven fact.
52 year old man has been further arrested on having class A drug with intent to supply. The owner I presume.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 05:17:50 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on March 20, 2019, 05:12:35 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
If you've ever queued to get in to a nightclub you'll know theres always an element of pushing and shoving, people get caught up and think its great craic, except this time it's tragically gone too far. None of the lads at the back who were pushing set put to hurt anyone of course and I'm sure they are feeling absolutely horrible about whats happened.
This is exactly what has happened for me. On the head. Tragic accident that's got out of hand and looks to be great craic completely unknowingly the root cause.
As for the drugs thing - it's a house owned by McElhatton....it's not his own home house. EDIT - This is what I heard, not proven fact.
Strange, why would they be searching the house I wonder?
Quote from: Itchy on March 20, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
52 year old man has been further arrested on having class A drug with intent to supply. The owner I presume.
Haven't seen anything to confirm whether its the owner arrested re the drugs or the other man who had been arrested. (A bouncer I'm assuming)
He has been dearrested now, what a shambles from the Police. Have they no compassion for the families of the kids?
Just been on news that he has been dearrrested with regards the drugs as none were found? ??? :o
WTF
Quote from: Ty4Sam on March 20, 2019, 06:08:39 PM
He has been dearrested now, what a shambles from the Police. Have they no compassion for the families of the kids?
A very serious issue has descended into farce.
Is it any wonder the PSNI has never gained support in the community? Would no-one with even half a brain in that shambles of a discredited force not stop to think. "Why don't we wait a couple of days until after the funerals before escalating an already tragic situation lest it causes further distress for the families"?
Unbelievable!!!!
Mickey McElhatten just released a statement via BBC to say the substance found in his laundry by police was not drugs. Are the PSNI actually brain dead 🙄
No compassion shown whatsoever to the families involved never mind some actual common sense - should have delayed all this until next week - some detective outfit that is - keystone PSNI !!
Psni ballsed up there.
Yet plenty of people online had him hung drawn and quartered before he was de-arrested!
It goes to show, no-one should be pointing the finger of blame at anyone until all the facts are known.
Heresay and rumour are not facts, people on here talking about how much at fault the greenvale is. No-one knows if anyone was at fault, or if it's a case of a really bad accident.
So they found a white powder in his laundry room and went to town. Wonder was it in a big square box labelled "Surf" ::)
That's not coffee and I'm not your mate!
Quote from: Armagh18 on March 20, 2019, 05:12:35 PM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it. Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.
I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:
'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'
These children have been let down .... end of.
I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
If you've ever queued to get in to a nightclub you'll know theres always an element of pushing and shoving, people get caught up and think its great craic, except this time it's tragically gone too far. None of the lads at the back who were pushing set put to hurt anyone of course and I'm sure they are feeling absolutely horrible about whats happened.
IF it transpires that people at the back were deliberately shoving for a laugh (and it wasn't just an "natural" crush, for want of a better term) then they should do time, and I hope they have the decency to never get a good night's sleep again.
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.
Ah look, I'm no lover of the police but they've more important things to be at than a weekly raid of every bar in every town in the country. It is what it is. The police can't be held accountable for young ones getting steamed before they even set foot in/on a premises. Simply can't be done - the horse has bolted on that. It's simply unavoidable at this stage - I mean I've seen police shut down bars in Dungannon/Cookstown and Omagh over Easter Sunday but bar that - that's it. They simply don't have the numbers for what is a task that is well, well down the list.
I don't mean that to sound in any way disrespectful to the victims - nor do I intend to cause offence but whilst I get your point, what realistically can be done bar forming local groups and policing the matter themselves? Maybe that's something they talk of at these policing board meetings (do they even happen anymore?) I couldn't tell you.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.
I'd like to think that even the police have better things to be at than annoying young people having a few drinks.
Quote from: Armagh18 on March 20, 2019, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.
I'd like to think that even the police have better things to be at than annoying young people having a few drinks.
"Young people having a few drinks" turns towns into the wild west on weekend nights. Walk up the Portadown Rd in Lurgan, and as soon as you walk over the top of that overpass you're taking your life in your hands.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.
Ah look, I'm no lover of the police but they've more important things to be at than a weekly raid of every bar in every town in the country. It is what it is. The police can't be held accountable for young ones getting steamed before they even set foot in/on a premises. Simply can't be done - the horse has bolted on that. It's simply unavoidable at this stage - I mean I've seen police shut down bars in Dungannon/Cookstown and Omagh over Easter Sunday but bar that - that's it. They simply don't have the numbers for what is a task that is well, well down the list.
I don't mean that to sound in any way disrespectful to the victims - nor do I intend to cause offence but whilst I get your point, what realistically can be done bar forming local groups and policing the matter themselves? Maybe that's something they talk of at these policing board meetings (do they even happen anymore?) I couldn't tell you.
Then what do the police think their job is? If they're not going to do it then what's the point in having them?
Vigilante groups is hardly the answer.
Is it the Police to blame for the arrest or is it everyone who read the original police and media statements and put 2 and 2 together and got whatever conclusion they wanted.
The original police statement said a man was arrested on suspicion of possession of class a drug with intent to supply. They key word being suspicion - yet most comments on this thread and majority of comments I seen on social media had changed that to being drugs found. Police partly to blame but people who read a statement and then change or Chinese whisper that statement to not include a key part of the statement are as bad.
No Police to blame in my opinion frank
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 09:42:20 PM
Is it the Police to blame for the arrest or is it everyone who read the original police and media statements and put 2 and 2 together and got whatever conclusion they wanted.
The original police statement said a man was arrested on suspicion of possession of class a drug with intent to supply. They key word being suspicion - yet every person who had commented on this thread changed that to being drugs found. Police partly to blame but people who read a statement and then change or Chinese whisper that statement to not include a key part of the statement are as bad.
I don't know how these things work but I would have thought, given the sensitive and emotive nature of this particular incident, that they could have waited until their express forensic team had ascertained what the substance actually was before releasing any sort of statement on the matter. I suspect the police knew only too well what way their statement would be interpreted.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.
The cops where never around the greenvale in my memory for obvious reasons. Maybe back when they wanted trouble but not in my time (the early 00's) I remember hearing that a mother had rang the police to ask to go up to sort out some fighting and they refused as they said that they would only make things worst which was probably the right call.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 06:16:12 PM
Quote from: Ty4Sam on March 20, 2019, 06:08:39 PM
He has been dearrested now, what a shambles from the Police. Have they no compassion for the families of the kids?
A very serious issue has descended into farce.
Absolute f**king farce
Police shouldnt have touched this to next week after the funerals. The owner and other boy are not flight risks...families did not need this shite and people saying to them about the drugs arrest etc. Total rank amateur, insensitive, shite.
PSNI are poor as f**k at times. Very few bright minds in this part of the world want to grow up and be a cop...hence the distinct brainpower deficit in that organisation
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:53:46 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.
The cops where never around the greenvale in my memory for obvious reasons. Maybe back when they wanted trouble but not in my time (the early 00's) I remember hearing that a mother had rang the police to ask to go up to sort out some fighting and they refused as they said that they would only make things worst which was probably the right call.
Reminds me of a caller on Talkback years ago. Some thugs were causing trouble at a parade, so he went to the cops and told them about it. The cops refused to intervene, saying "sure if we tried to do anything about it, they'd just wreck the town."
Makes you wonder what's the point of having law enforcement if they're not going to bother their heads enforcing the law. Only in Ireland do I ever see this defeatist attitude from cops.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 09:49:57 PM
Sorry lads. My point was when Mark Hamilton stood outside the Greenvale he mentioned some attendees being underage. Call me cynical but I just felt they were washing their hands off it - acting as if they didn't know. As for crowd control etc, over the years cops cars have came into the Greenvale car park. I can definitely remember that from going to socials. They didn't appear overly worried with line ups then.
I was at a social (probably 1997) were the police actually came in & walked around the entire room, area around the bar went from packed to totally cleared in no time at all. No alcohol sold for the rest of the night unless you'd ID to show you were over 18. Fake IDs not as prevalent back then so very little trade done that night!!!
Police knew that these events were full of underage teenagers over 20 years ago!!
It's not so much fake ID, they get friends who are 18 and borrow their real ID providing there is a likeness, and as far as bouncers are concerned they have checked and job done..
It's not like the states, I was 21 and had to show my ID to the same barman and off-licence every night!
If the cops had shut down the Greenvale or any other local spot before this tragedy occurred, the same lads insisting they're accountable would be banging on about poor McElhatton being harassed and persecuted by the PSNIRUC.
Post hoc ergo proctor hoc
Underage drinking has precisely nothing to do with what happened at the Greenvale Hotel.
It wouldn't have mattered whether the crowd had all been intoxicated Rangers hooligans over for a friendly match against an ex-LVF XI.
The same duty of care to put proper safety measures in place for whoever turns up at the door would apply.
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 09:42:20 PM
Is it the Police to blame for the arrest or is it everyone who read the original police and media statements and put 2 and 2 together and got whatever conclusion they wanted.
The original police statement said a man was arrested on suspicion of possession of class a drug with intent to supply. They key word being suspicion - yet most comments on this thread and majority of comments I seen on social media had changed that to being drugs found. Police partly to blame but people who read a statement and then change or Chinese whisper that statement to not include a key part of the statement are as bad.
It's 100% the polices fault. Why arrest him on suspicion of the drugs charges at all given the circumstances unless they had actually found drugs? Making themselves look even more incompetent than people already think they are.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 20, 2019, 09:39:25 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 20, 2019, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 20, 2019, 08:10:20 PM
Not sure if already mentioned but surely the police have to be held accountable here. The dogs on the street knew about underage drinking at the greenvale this past 20 years.
Ah look, I'm no lover of the police but they've more important things to be at than a weekly raid of every bar in every town in the country. It is what it is. The police can't be held accountable for young ones getting steamed before they even set foot in/on a premises. Simply can't be done - the horse has bolted on that. It's simply unavoidable at this stage - I mean I've seen police shut down bars in Dungannon/Cookstown and Omagh over Easter Sunday but bar that - that's it. They simply don't have the numbers for what is a task that is well, well down the list.
I don't mean that to sound in any way disrespectful to the victims - nor do I intend to cause offence but whilst I get your point, what realistically can be done bar forming local groups and policing the matter themselves? Maybe that's something they talk of at these policing board meetings (do they even happen anymore?) I couldn't tell you.
Then what do the police think their job is? If they're not going to do it then what's the point in having them?
Vigilante groups is hardly the answer.
I didn't say it wasn't their job, I said they have much bigger issues to deal with versus an obvious lack of resources to do so
So like you or I would do in our weekly workload you prioritize accordingly, I'm sure no Chief Inspector tortures the rank and file about lifting underage drinking.
There were a catalogue of events that has made this happen, but fundamentally, not ensuring that people are queued correctly and safely is one major factor.
No poster on here was actually at it, second hand evidence isn't to be trusted. So while everyone has a view I'd wait until the HSE and police come up with some facts before giving a balanced view on it.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2019, 10:58:49 PM
There were a catalogue of events that has made this happen, but fundamentally, not ensuring that people are queued correctly and safely is one major factor.
No poster on here was actually at it, second hand evidence isn't to be trusted. So while everyone has a view I'd wait until the HSE and police come up with some facts before giving a balanced view on it.
Agreed. However your point about queuing correctly applies across the board which is why I am reluctant to criticise the owner. Like I've said previously, a tragedy like this could happen at any venue in the country on any big night. Hopefully changes in attitudes to queuing systems are brougt in across the board in the aftermath of this.
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 12:30:44 PM
Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.
In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.
Says the boy who cited a YouTube video as "proof" that there's no overcrowding on the Tube. ::)
Why are you being deliberately idiotic? He never said that. The state of this. Just admit you are wrong. You said the London UG works because people are generally well mannered. That is absolute balls and he pulled you on it. It works because of the immense attention to detail regarding crowd control.
Quote from: Armagh18 on March 20, 2019, 11:04:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2019, 10:58:49 PM
There were a catalogue of events that has made this happen, but fundamentally, not ensuring that people are queued correctly and safely is one major factor.
No poster on here was actually at it, second hand evidence isn't to be trusted. So while everyone has a view I'd wait until the HSE and police come up with some facts before giving a balanced view on it.
Agreed. However your point about queuing correctly applies across the board which is why I am reluctant to criticise the owner. Like I've said previously, a tragedy like this could happen at any venue in the country on any big night. Hopefully changes in attitudes to queuing systems are brougt in across the board in the aftermath of this.
It is, I've tried not to talk about this tragedy, but right across every event that will attract hundreds or thousands to an event must be seen to follow the procedures and adhere to the risk assessments that would have required for any job that involves a risk.
But the police and other authorities will view this particular one as a breach of H&S, no intent of course and no one would wish these incidents on any one. But too ever learn from these mistakes there has to be a fall guy.
I posted earlier there was a lot of responsibility across the board, and as a collective there was some failings. This ended with kids being crushed to death.
This drugs issues strikes me as odd and very poorly handled by the PSNI. I see they have claimed to
have fast tracked the forensic analysis of the powder found and de arrested based on those findings. I'd be intrigued to hear more about that given the huge back log there is on such analysis at the minute with most cases taking at least 4-6 months if not longer for the analysis to take place even those the courts direct to be given priority.
If they've handled that aspect as badly as it appears they did it cast further questions over their handling of the substantive case.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 20, 2019, 11:30:43 PM
This drugs issues strikes me as odd and very poorly handled by the PSNI. I see they have claimed to
have fast tracked the forensic analysis of the powder found and de arrested based on those findings. I'd be intrigued to hear more about that given the huge back log there is on such analysis at the minute with most cases taking at least 4-6 months if not longer for the analysis to take place even those the courts direct to be given priority.
If they've handled that aspect as badly as it appears they did it cast further questions over their handling of the substantive case.
Police speak for "we fucked up"
It seemed like only a couple of hours between arresting him for drugs and letting him go for it, if they were going to fast track the analysis why not wait the hour or two before making the comment at all?
Quote from: MoChara on March 21, 2019, 07:38:57 AM
It seemed like only a couple of hours between arresting him for drugs and letting him go for it, if they were going to fast track the analysis why not wait the hour or two before making the comment at all?
That what I was wondering too.
Total mess from the PSNI which doesn't bode well for the investigation in hand.
Quote from: MoChara on March 21, 2019, 07:38:57 AM
It seemed like only a couple of hours between arresting him for drugs and letting him go for it, if they were going to fast track the analysis why not wait the hour or two before making the comment at all?
What was the analysis? Joe Cop rubbed some on his gums and said "boss, that tastes like soap?". Absolute shambles from the PSNI, as you say they could have waited until they knew what they had before releasing any statement. Looks very like a case of the PR department deciding they have to be seen to be doing something.
There are conflicting reports if the owner was arrested for manslaughter or corporate manslaughter.
I'm not entirely sure, but if the former - this drugs fiasco has surely thrown out the possibility of a conviction being obtained, any defence worth it's salt will ensure that over this there'll be no fair trial.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 21, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
There are conflicting reports if the owner was arrested for manslaughter or corporate manslaughter.
I'm not entirely sure, but if the former - this drugs fiasco has surely thrown out the possibility of a conviction being obtained, any defence worth it's salt will ensure that over this there'll be no fair trial.
I'm sorry what?
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 21, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
There are conflicting reports if the owner was arrested for manslaughter or corporate manslaughter.
I'm not entirely sure, but if the former - this drugs fiasco has surely thrown out the possibility of a conviction being obtained, any defence worth it's salt will ensure that over this there'll be no fair trial.
As in there will be more sympathy for the owner and more suspicion of the authorities?
Police have said they won't apologize. Found a white powder and tinfoil that looked like wraps. They claim anyone would have thought it was drugs.
Absolute f**king madness.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 06:54:54 PM
So they found a white powder in his laundry room and went to town. Wonder was it in a big square box labelled "Surf" ::)
Wonder did Lever Bros give them their money back....
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 10:50:30 PM
Underage drinking has precisely nothing to do with what happened at the Greenvale Hotel.
It wouldn't have mattered whether the crowd had all been intoxicated Rangers hooligans over for a friendly match against an ex-LVF XI.
The same duty of care to put proper safety measures in place for whoever turns up at the door would apply.
Ach away of that.
Of course it had an effect.
Doesn't absolve the venue from their duty of care - but there is an
extremely strong likelihood that if everyone in the queue were sober then the crush doesn't happen.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 10:55:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 10:50:30 PM
Underage drinking has precisely nothing to do with what happened at the Greenvale Hotel.
It wouldn't have mattered whether the crowd had all been intoxicated Rangers hooligans over for a friendly match against an ex-LVF XI.
The same duty of care to put proper safety measures in place for whoever turns up at the door would apply.
Ach away of that.
Of course it had an effect.
Doesn't absolve the venue from their duty of care - but there is an extremely strong likelihood that if everyone in the queue were sober then the crush doesn't happen.
Evidence?
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 10:55:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 10:50:30 PM
Underage drinking has precisely nothing to do with what happened at the Greenvale Hotel.
It wouldn't have mattered whether the crowd had all been intoxicated Rangers hooligans over for a friendly match against an ex-LVF XI.
The same duty of care to put proper safety measures in place for whoever turns up at the door would apply.
Ach away of that.
Of course it had an effect.
Doesn't absolve the venue from their duty of care - but there is an extremely strong likelihood that if everyone in the queue were sober then the crush doesn't happen.
Sun Hillsborough-esque nonsense - attempting to shift blame and disingenuously muddy the waters to protect those responsible.
It's
100% the responsibility of a venue to ensure its patrons can queue in safety.
The venue 100% failed to do that.
The problem now is that the PSNI's bungling idiocy is going to elicit sympathy for a man who doesn't deserve it.
Quote from: HiMucker on March 20, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 12:30:44 PM
Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.
In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.
Says the boy who cited a YouTube video as "proof" that there's no overcrowding on the Tube. ::)
Why are you being deliberately idiotic? He never said that. The state of this. Just admit you are wrong. You said the London UG works because people are generally well mannered. That is absolute balls and he pulled you on it. It works because of the immense attention to detail regarding crowd control.
Get a grip. Its beyond obvious that the London Underground works because people are generally well mannered. Crowd control and monitoring are secondary and are only of limited use anyway on a sardine-packed platform. Anywhere there are large congregations of people, there is an inherent risk of disaster if people start acting the maggot.
Quote from: trailer on March 21, 2019, 10:57:49 AM
Evidence?
Apart from the thousands of events that take place world wide, have bigger crowds, no crowd control, yet pass off without incident?
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:02:33 AM
Sun Hillsborough-esque nonsense - attempting to shift blame and disingenuously muddy the waters to protect those responsible.
Erm no. Did I not say the venue has a duty of care?
But gormless idiots like yourself are all too quick to absolve folks of their own personal responsibility and instead foist it onto others.
Trip over a flagstone in the pavement sticking out a few mm? Its not about looking where you are going - its about suing the council. ::)
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:13:09 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 21, 2019, 10:57:49 AM
Evidence?
Apart from the thousands of events that take place world wide, have bigger crowds, no crowd control, yet pass off without incident?
Could you name some please?
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:02:33 AM
Sun Hillsborough-esque nonsense - attempting to shift blame and disingenuously muddy the waters to protect those responsible.
Erm no. Did I not say the venue has a duty of care?
But gormless idiots like yourself are all too quick to absolve folks of their own personal responsibility and instead foist it onto others.
Trip over a flagstone in the pavement sticking out a few mm? Its not about looking where you are going - its about suing the council. ::)
I'm specifically advocating for personal responsibility to be upheld where it should be upheld - on the head of those who ran the venue.
You are specifically advocating shifting responsibility onto those who aren't responsible.
That's
exactly what The Sun did in their coverage of Hillsborough.
The irony of you calling somebody else a "gormless idiot" in such an unironic fashion is entirely lost on you.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:22:09 AM
I'm specifically advocating for personal responsibility to be upheld where it should be upheld - on the head of those who ran the venue.
It's hardly beyond possibility that responsibility for this or any other tragedy lies with more than one source.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:22:09 AM
I'm specifically advocating for personal responsibility to be upheld where it should be upheld - on the head of those who ran the venue.
You are specifically advocating shifting responsibility onto those who aren't responsible.
That's exactly what The Sun did in their coverage of Hillsborough.
The ticketless Liverpool fans who congregated at the gates of the Hillsborough terrace also contributed to that tragedy, although it's now almost illegal to suggest that.
Quote from: five points on March 21, 2019, 11:26:26 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:22:09 AM
I'm specifically advocating for personal responsibility to be upheld where it should be upheld - on the head of those who ran the venue.
It's hardly beyond possibility that responsibility for this or any other tragedy lies with more than one source.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:22:09 AM
I'm specifically advocating for personal responsibility to be upheld where it should be upheld - on the head of those who ran the venue.
You are specifically advocating shifting responsibility onto those who aren't responsible.
That's exactly what The Sun did in their coverage of Hillsborough.
The ticketless Liverpool fans who congregated at the gates of the Hillsborough terrace also contributed to that tragedy, although it's now almost illegal to suggest that.
While pub bore eejits like yourself are around, there will always be a market for lies, disinformation and propaganda.
A lie can travel around the world while the truth is still putting its shoes on, and all that.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:30:52 AM
While pub bore eejits like yourself are around, there will always be a market for lies, disinformation and propaganda.
Wow, what a compelling rebuttal.
Quote from: trailer on March 21, 2019, 11:17:23 AM
Could you name some please?
Like virtually every other f**king train station across the world?
What special kind of idiot are you?
Quote from: five points on March 21, 2019, 11:31:37 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:30:52 AM
While pub bore eejits like yourself are around, there will always be a market for lies, disinformation and propaganda.
Wow, what a compelling rebuttal.
You've proven comprehensively on this thread that you don't deserve anything but disdain and ridicule through your attempts to place the blame for two separate disasters onto the innocent victims.
Bye now.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:32:24 AM
What special kind of idiot are you?
You should try looking in the mirror while reading that post back to yourself.
Is there a responsibility for a nightclub to have queuing system? barriers etc? If so there are a lot of premises flouting H&S risk assessments because I cant off hand think of any clubs that have them.
I have a hazy memory of something like that at the arena but I could easily be mistaken as that wasn't today or yesterday.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 21, 2019, 11:17:23 AM
Could you name some please?
Like virtually every other f**king train station across the world?
What special kind of idiot are you?
But you said events. Now you're talking about train stations.
So virtually every other train station has no crowd control. That's what you are saying? I just want to be clear.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:34:31 AM
You've proven comprehensively on this thread that you don't deserve anything but disdain and ridicule through your attempts to place the blame for two separate disasters onto the innocent victims.
Bye now.
Victims?
The ticketless idiots who crowded the Leppings Lane End in Hillsborough weren't the ones who died in the disaster.
If anyone was pushing and shoving at the Cookstown venue, and we have yet to find out what exactly did happen, they weren't the ones who died in the ensuing crush.
Quote from: J70 on March 21, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 21, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
There are conflicting reports if the owner was arrested for manslaughter or corporate manslaughter.
I'm not entirely sure, but if the former - this drugs fiasco has surely thrown out the possibility of a conviction being obtained, any defence worth it's salt will ensure that over this there'll be no fair trial.
As in there will be more sympathy for the owner and more suspicion of the authorities?
In general - assuming it went to trial of course - this is just me assuming. This drugs thing has created an almost disbelieving hysteria as opposed to what it should be, tragic regret on the loss of life - it would bring an element of unfair trial if it did get to that stage I would assume.
It's very rare for such a thing to happen in Ireland or the UK and every year thousands of gatherings of people happen with no problem. Something must have gone really wrong.
The investigation is crucial.
Quote from: five points on March 21, 2019, 11:40:02 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:34:31 AM
You've proven comprehensively on this thread that you don't deserve anything but disdain and ridicule through your attempts to place the blame for two separate disasters onto the innocent victims.
Bye now.
Victims?
The ticketless idiots who crowded the Leppings Lane End in Hillsborough weren't the ones who died in the disaster.
If anyone was pushing and shoving at the Cookstown venue, and we have yet to find out what exactly did happen, they weren't the ones who died in the ensuing crush.
Lies never, ever sleep.
Holy fcuk lads, would some of you wise to fcuk up...there are 3 dead darlings barely cold and you're having debates about blame and the like? Honestly take a huge look at yourselves. There is a pretty widespread Tyrone membership on here. I am sure there are connections to people involved. Temper things and let the dust settle. There are no answers to this at this stage and some of you should get the fcuk off your high horses and have respect
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 21, 2019, 11:40:35 AM
Quote from: J70 on March 21, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 21, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
There are conflicting reports if the owner was arrested for manslaughter or corporate manslaughter.
I'm not entirely sure, but if the former - this drugs fiasco has surely thrown out the possibility of a conviction being obtained, any defence worth it's salt will ensure that over this there'll be no fair trial.
As in there will be more sympathy for the owner and more suspicion of the authorities?
In general - assuming it went to trial of course - this is just me assuming. This drugs thing has created an almost disbelieving hysteria as opposed to what it should be, tragic regret on the loss of life - it would bring an element of unfair trial if it did get to that stage I would assume.
Highly unlikely it would have any impact if it was even admissible.
Quote from: trailer on March 21, 2019, 11:39:31 AM
But you said events. Now you're talking about train stations.
So virtually every other train station has no crowd control. That's what you are saying? I just want to be clear.
Oh no. I said events. :'(
If it needs to be events to suit your pea-brain - then the crowds gathering outside turnstiles at football grounds every week across the world are largely uncontrolled.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:36:05 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:32:24 AM
What special kind of idiot are you?
You should try looking in the mirror while reading that post back to yourself.
I'm somewhat surprised you have the ability to read.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 21, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
Holy fcuk lads, would some of you wise to fcuk up...there are 3 dead darlings barely cold and you're having debates about blame and the like? Honestly take a huge look at yourselves. There is a pretty widespread Tyrone membership on here. I am sure there are connections to people involved. Temper things and let the dust settle. There are no answers to this at this stage and some of you should get the fcuk off your high horses and have respect
+1
Well said BCB1
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:51:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 21, 2019, 11:36:05 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 11:32:24 AM
What special kind of idiot are you?
You should try looking in the mirror while reading that post back to yourself.
I'm somewhat surprised you have the ability to read.
I'd say a lot of things surprise you.
illdecide, don't be apologizing or suggesting the safety measures you're discussing are "PC".
PC me f**king arse.
Crowd control is not rocket science. If your in the business of accomodating and making money out of crowds of people, then you have a responsibility to put the measures in place to ensure their safety. End of story.
Here, I deleted my post there as TBH as BCB said it's probably not appropriate at this time. Let the dust settle, i know myself (well have a good idea how this will end) this is a disaster for everyone involved. The poor families have lost the most important thing in the world to them and even the people who will end up responsible for this tragic act who did not set out to do this is also sad too, lets let the authorities do their investigations and hopefully the families involved will get their answers...
We need the Stewart Lee's nan going on about health and safety vs. political correctness clip.
Quote from: trailer on March 21, 2019, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on March 21, 2019, 10:55:52 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 10:50:30 PM
Underage drinking has precisely nothing to do with what happened at the Greenvale Hotel.
It wouldn't have mattered whether the crowd had all been intoxicated Rangers hooligans over for a friendly match against an ex-LVF XI.
The same duty of care to put proper safety measures in place for whoever turns up at the door would apply.
Ach away of that.
Of course it had an effect.
Doesn't absolve the venue from their duty of care - but there is an extremely strong likelihood that if everyone in the queue were sober then the crush doesn't happen.
Evidence?
Common sense?
Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2019, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 21, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
Holy fcuk lads, would some of you wise to fcuk up...there are 3 dead darlings barely cold and you're having debates about blame and the like? Honestly take a huge look at yourselves. There is a pretty widespread Tyrone membership on here. I am sure there are connections to people involved. Temper things and let the dust settle. There are no answers to this at this stage and some of you should get the fcuk off your high horses and have respect
+1
Well said BCB1
agree 100%.
Quote from: Square Ball on March 21, 2019, 01:38:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2019, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 21, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
Holy fcuk lads, would some of you wise to fcuk up...there are 3 dead darlings barely cold and you're having debates about blame and the like? Honestly take a huge look at yourselves. There is a pretty widespread Tyrone membership on here. I am sure there are connections to people involved. Temper things and let the dust settle. There are no answers to this at this stage and some of you should get the fcuk off your high horses and have respect
+1
Well said BCB1
agree 100%.
Giving this a +1. If a lot of this dung keeps up the OP would be as well to lock the thread.
Quote from: Square Ball on March 21, 2019, 01:38:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2019, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 21, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
Holy fcuk lads, would some of you wise to fcuk up...there are 3 dead darlings barely cold and you're having debates about blame and the like? Honestly take a huge look at yourselves. There is a pretty widespread Tyrone membership on here. I am sure there are connections to people involved. Temper things and let the dust settle. There are no answers to this at this stage and some of you should get the fcuk off your high horses and have respect
+1
Well said BCB1
agree 100%.
True.
Horrific. Honestly believe the police didn't need to Go looking to blame someone prior to the funerals.
It's Not like a case where a robber might discard his ill gotten gains if not arrested immediately
It's made this tragedy into a pantomime
I have just read this thread from start to finish and can't believe what some of you have been posting and discussing.
3 young people have lost their lives in tragic circumstances and it's pathetic to read what some of you have been saying.
As pointed out previously there are a lot of Tyrone posters on here and we all have connections in one way or another
to those there, and to those who died.
Anyhow, what happened on Sunday night was a tragedy and a very dark day that has affected so many people, and
especially the 3 families who will have to bury their children tomorrow. Hundreds of teeneagers went out for a night
and they got caught up in a tragedy that will leave a deep scar for life.
I had 2 nephews who were there and thankfully they got out safely. Sadly one nephew was a good friend of one of those who died. They had been classmates from 4 years old, and played together over the years on under age teams. He is broken hearted. At one stage he had been talking to him in the crowd, and the next he saw him receiving CPR. Last night and tonight he was at his wake, and tomorrow he will be at his funeral. What a brutal experience to go through, and he's not on his own.
There are a lot of questions to be asked, and hopefully, through time they will be answered, but for now, we are a community in mourning and we have 3 funerals tomorrow.
I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought this thread had become very distasteful.
It's a discussion board lads. Discussion and debate is literally the entire point of things. Nobody is speaking ill of the dead, nobody is belittling the tragedy, nobody is trying to make light of anyone's suffering.
If this had happened in London, Berlin, Hong Kong, Sydney, New York etc nobody would be up in arms about anyone having such debate. The fact that it's so raw and close to home means we should be prepared to confront things even more, not less.
Quote from: gallsman on March 22, 2019, 06:32:02 AM
It's a discussion board lads. Discussion and debate is literally the entire point of things. Nobody is speaking ill of the dead, nobody is belittling the tragedy, nobody is trying to make light of anyone's suffering.
If this had happened in London, Berlin, Hong Kong, Sydney, New York etc nobody would be up in arms about anyone having such debate. The fact that it's so raw and close to home means we should be prepared to confront things even more, not less.
I accept what you are saying is true. For me personally, what I find distasteful is the caustic nature of some of the debate here. You've mentioned tragedy, which is exactly what it is. The personal nature of some of the exchanges suggest to me that the tragic circumstances are not foremost in the minds of those debating.
As stated, a personal opinion only.
Should we talk about what happened so as to avoid it reoccurring? Or should that be left to the police? The Hillsborough thread did not end well for some posters
Quote from: Orior on March 22, 2019, 08:41:18 AM
Should we talk about what happened so as to avoid it reoccurring? Or should that be left to the police? The Hillsborough thread did not end well for some posters
Of course we should talk about it. I'd hope that anyone who has any privileged information that could prejudice any official investigation would have the wit to keep it to themselves.
The only thing connecting this incident to Hillsborough is the fact that people died in a crush. Other than that, the two incidents are not remotely alike and drawing parallels between them is ill-advised at best.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/vivacious-charismatic-and-energetic-teens-remembered-at-tyrone-funerals-1.3835063
Awful sad.
Reminds me of the Crossmaglen film. Oisin McConville's oldest brother died as a teenager. Things are never the same
Quote from: gallsman on March 22, 2019, 08:51:58 AM
Quote from: Orior on March 22, 2019, 08:41:18 AM
Should we talk about what happened so as to avoid it reoccurring? Or should that be left to the police? The Hillsborough thread did not end well for some posters
Of course we should talk about it. I'd hope that anyone who has any privileged information that could prejudice any official investigation would have the wit to keep it to themselves.
The only thing connecting this incident to Hillsborough is the fact that people died in a crush. Other than that, the two incidents are not remotely alike and drawing parallels between them is ill-advised at best.
I think on the face of it the two tragedies are very similar.
Individuals who probably shouldnt have been where they are caused a crush.
Venue and staff may not have been following procedures to ensure the above didnt happen.
Innocent people die.
Cops fock it up.
Watched the coverage of the funerals on the news. Desperately sad for all involved. Will be very hard for the families to accept this has happened.
Connor Curries teammates huddle around his coffin today in Edendork.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/55875411_2316978455019888_2051368670826856448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f6236b0e37e40cc738a89ec1c1cb3fe0&oe=5D07AB09)
Quote from: give her dixie on March 22, 2019, 08:36:14 PM
Connor Curries teammates huddle around his coffin today in Edendork.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/55875411_2316978455019888_2051368670826856448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f6236b0e37e40cc738a89ec1c1cb3fe0&oe=5D07AB09)
That's heart breaking!
Heartbreaking image. RIP to all three, hopefully all family and friends find the strength over the next while to help deal with this.
Jaysus it would break your heart watching the footage of the funerals and the photos. I can't begin to imagine what their families are going through.
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
The press are only feeding off the back of things that will sell papers! Disgusting but as long as people will buy and watch this then they will continue to do it and they are well paid also
Terrible day for the family and a dark cloud over the area this last few days.
I would suspect now the funerals have passed the police will charge the man in custody. If rumours are to be believed... Rightly so.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
I remember being at a funeral of a young girl a few years ago where the Belfast Telegraph reporter took out her phone and recorded the priests homily, despite being told to get out they proceeded to photograph the coffin leaving the chapel.
Scumbags.
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 22, 2019, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
I remember being at a funeral of a young girl a few years ago where the Belfast Telegraph reporter took out her phone and recorded the priests homily, despite being told to get out they proceeded to photograph the coffin leaving the chapel.
Scumbags.
What a crowd of cnuts. Should have took her phone home in pieces.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 22, 2019, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
I remember being at a funeral of a young girl a few years ago where the Belfast Telegraph reporter took out her phone and recorded the priests homily, despite being told to get out they proceeded to photograph the coffin leaving the chapel.
Scumbags.
What a crowd of cnuts. Should have took her phone home in pieces.
They stood across the road from the chapel and done it. When people saw them, they weren't long in hunting them.
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 23, 2019, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 22, 2019, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
I remember being at a funeral of a young girl a few years ago where the Belfast Telegraph reporter took out her phone and recorded the priests homily, despite being told to get out they proceeded to photograph the coffin leaving the chapel.
Scumbags.
What a crowd of cnuts. Should have took her phone home in pieces.
They stood across the road from the chapel and done it. When people saw them, they weren't long in hunting them.
I remember seeing the same at Michaela McAreaveys funeral. They're vultures who will do anything to sell a paper.
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 23, 2019, 10:56:49 AM
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 23, 2019, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 22, 2019, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
I remember being at a funeral of a young girl a few years ago where the Belfast Telegraph reporter took out her phone and recorded the priests homily, despite being told to get out they proceeded to photograph the coffin leaving the chapel.
Scumbags.
What a crowd of cnuts. Should have took her phone home in pieces.
They stood across the road from the chapel and done it. When people saw them, they weren't long in hunting them.
I remember seeing the same at Michaela McAreaveys funeral. They're vultures who will do anything to sell a paper.
I'm a bit puzzled by all this anger at journalists simply doing their job.
On the previous page of this thread there was a photo uploaded from one of the funerals.
How do you think these photographs get taken, other than by journalists and photographers?
Some people would be well advised to direct their anger in the direction of those who were responsible for the deeply unsafe environment in which these tragic deaths happened, or in a constructive way towards the health and safety authorities and the politicians who should now be pressured heavily to legislate so that such a disaster never happens again, rather than at journalists doing their job.
Some people really can't see the wood for the trees.
Quote from: sid waddell on March 23, 2019, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on March 23, 2019, 10:56:49 AM
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 23, 2019, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: paddyjohn on March 22, 2019, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 22, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
Terrible thing to go through at that age. Whilst a powerful image IMO taking photos at funerals is very distasteful.
I remember being at a funeral of a young girl a few years ago where the Belfast Telegraph reporter took out her phone and recorded the priests homily, despite being told to get out they proceeded to photograph the coffin leaving the chapel.
Scumbags.
What a crowd of cnuts. Should have took her phone home in pieces.
They stood across the road from the chapel and done it. When people saw them, they weren't long in hunting them.
I remember seeing the same at Michaela McAreaveys funeral. They're vultures who will do anything to sell a paper.
I'm a bit puzzled by all this anger at journalists simply doing their job.
On the previous page of this thread there was a photo uploaded from one of the funerals.
How do you think these photographs get taken, other than by journalists and photographers?
Some people would be well advised to direct their anger in the direction of those who were responsible for the deeply unsafe environment in which these tragic deaths happened, or in a constructive way towards the health and safety authorities and the politicians who should now be pressured heavily to legislate so that such a disaster never happens again, rather than at journalists doing their job.
Some people really can't see the wood for the trees.
Some journalists are absolute scum. There were two toddlers killed in an accident close to where I live. They held the wake at the house. Two people showed up who no one knew, went inside and we're caught trying to take pics of the little kids in their coffins. They were swiftly removed and from reports got a few digs going out the front gate and rightly so. Don't know what kind of sicko you'd need to be to do something like that.
Things going from bad to worse for the police regarding the tragedy at the Greenvale last week as it now emerges that the 1st police to arrive at the scene withdrew until the ambulance arrived. This is turning into a shambles for the police so far.
Quote from: give her dixie on March 26, 2019, 01:30:09 PM
Things going from bad to worse for the police regarding the tragedy at the Greenvale last week as it now emerges that the 1st police to arrive at the scene withdrew until the ambulance arrived. This is turning into a shambles for the police so far.
I see it's been referred to the Police Ombudsman. There's no doubt that Murray (Chief investigating officer) is appearing in the media to get his speak in first. From the outside the response and the investigation would appear to have major flaws.
Quote from: give her dixie on March 26, 2019, 01:30:09 PM
Things going from bad to worse for the police regarding the tragedy at the Greenvale last week as it now emerges that the 1st police to arrive at the scene withdrew until the ambulance arrived. This is turning into a shambles for the police so far.
Probably didn't have the correct risk assessments in place >:( Their handling of this since the first phone call appears to have been piss poor.
Quote from: give her dixie on March 26, 2019, 01:30:09 PM
Things going from bad to worse for the police regarding the tragedy at the Greenvale last week as it now emerges that the 1st police to arrive at the scene withdrew until the ambulance arrived. This is turning into a shambles for the police so far.
GOP are claiming total vindication based on Barr but refusing to allow the full report to be issued
Sounds like their story is makey uppy
Actually disgusted to see people creating social media profiles of the dead today in the Irish News. I actually had to read it twice.
Unbelievable. No idea why someone would do that. So depressing to think this is what someone is doing in their spare time.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 26, 2019, 03:13:22 PM
Actually disgusted to see people creating social media profiles of the dead today in the Irish News. I actually had to read it twice.
Unbelievable. No idea why someone would do that. So depressing to think this is what someone is doing in their spare time.
Seriously?! What the fcuk is wrong with people?!
I've seen that before. Seriously messed up.
Also is it just me being paranoid or on occasions like this do people use social media to hype up how amazing their family are.
Since Cookstown I've seen numerous family photographs with hold them tight etc etc....as if somehow glorifying their circumstances.
Maybe its just me!
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 26, 2019, 04:30:24 PM
Also is it just me being paranoid or on occasions like this do people use social media to hype up how amazing their family are.
Since Cookstown I've seen numerous family photographs with hold them tight etc etc....as if somehow glorifying their circumstances.
Maybe its just me!
Don't bother with facebook for reasons close enough to this. Such a false social media tool - Good for keeping in touch if you live abroad, that's about it.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on March 26, 2019, 04:30:24 PM
Also is it just me being paranoid or on occasions like this do people use social media to hype up how amazing their family are.
Since Cookstown I've seen numerous family photographs with hold them tight etc etc....as if somehow glorifying their circumstances.
Maybe its just me!
Agree with you 100%, social media coming down with this type of nonsense this past week or so.
Don't use FB but I've seen others posts on occasions such as Mother's Day, Christmas, birthdays etc. Posts like "happy birthday to the greatest mum in the world. You mean so much, etc etc". And it's maybe been posted while their ma is in the next room. Can you not just pop your head around the door and tell her face to face? Ffs
Public display of affection, I think they call it. Load of balls.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 26, 2019, 05:40:26 PM
Don't use FB but I've seen others posts on occasions such as Mother's Day, Christmas, birthdays etc. Posts like "happy birthday to the greatest mum in the world. You mean so much, etc etc". And it's maybe been posted while their ma is in the next room. Can you not just pop your head around the door and tell her face to face? Ffs
Public display of affection, I think they call it. Load of balls.
Sure doing it in person doesn't drum up any likes or shares. Why would you bother.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 26, 2019, 05:40:26 PM
Don't use FB but I've seen others posts on occasions such as Mother's Day, Christmas, birthdays etc. Posts like "happy birthday to the greatest mum in the world. You mean so much, etc etc". And it's maybe been posted while their ma is in the next room. Can you not just pop your head around the door and tell her face to face? Ffs
Public display of affection, I think they call it. Load of balls.
Deleted it for this reason over a year ago and have t looked back. It's ridiculously false and a sad state of affairs for society as a whole. Have you ever been on a night out where everyone is on their phones and then take pictures and videos to show how good a time they're having? Then back to the phones.
The social media complainer group are as annoying as the 'best mum in the world' types.
Social media benefits outweigh the negatives in my view, but stuff like this just seems to cause people to jump on the grief bandwagon and then plaster it all over their profile.
http://www.tyronecourier.co.uk/news/2019/06/13/news/greenvale-hotel-to-be-demolished-4948/
:o
Quote from: WT4E on June 13, 2019, 01:37:40 PM
http://www.tyronecourier.co.uk/news/2019/06/13/news/greenvale-hotel-to-be-demolished-4948/
:o
The Greenvale Hotel in Cookstown - where three young people died in March - is to remain open and continue trading after plans were revealed to demolish the building.
Lauren Bullock (17), Morgan Barnard (17) and 16-year-old Connor Currie, died outside the Cookstown hotel before a St Patrick's day disco on March 18.
Police said around 600 people were in the queue at the time.
Three months on from the tragedy, the venue's owner Michael McElhatton has submitted a planning application to bulldoze the hotel.
The proposal, received by Mid Ulster District Council on Tuesday, seeks to replace the Greenvale Hotel with five new detached houses and garages.
In a statement, the Greenvale Hotel said: "The owner of the Greenvale Hotel, Mr Michael Mc Elhatton, has today confirmed an application has been made for planning permission for the redevelopment of the Greenvale Hotel site. The application was placed yesterday with the Mid Ulster Council.
"There are no immediate plans for a change of use of the premises which will continue with its current operations for the foreseeable future.
Knocked down for houses - probably the best business decision you could make at this stage really.
Fake news. Not being demolished.
Quote from: tyrone girl on June 13, 2019, 04:30:40 PM
Fake news. Not being demolished.
You do know what fake news means? This is probably the direct opposite to fake news.
Quote from: tyrone girl on June 13, 2019, 04:30:40 PM
Fake news. Not being demolished.
The report says it has plans in for demolition and houses to be built. Nothing more or less so nothing fake about it. Whether it happens now or in 5 years or never at all. It's in black and white the plans have been submitted for approval.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62740190 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62740190)
2 being charged with corporate manslaughter, including hotel oowner Micky McElhatton
Mmm. None of the police tho eh....
Ah i dont know enough about it overall...
Cops copped out, cowards, And protected. Muck
Quote from: Dire Ear on September 25, 2022, 12:47:10 AM
Cops copped out, cowards, And protected. Muck
Agreed.
Mcelhatton is as good a man ur likely to meet but I suppose as the owner he has to carry the can. From what I heard he wasn't there at the time but rushed back and I think as well as the cops sitting on there hands at the bottom of the drive one of the bouncers was particularly bad in the situation.
Cops getting off is a disgrace.... don't forget they also tried to blacken mcelhattons name In the days after an obvious distraction tactic from them to him
Quote from: WT4E on September 25, 2022, 08:23:53 AM
Quote from: Dire Ear on September 25, 2022, 12:47:10 AM
Cops copped out, cowards, And protected. Muck
Agreed.
Mcelhatton is as good a man ur likely to meet but I suppose as the owner he has to carry the can. From what I heard he wasn't there at the time but rushed back and I think as well as the cops sitting on there hands at the bottom of the drive one of the bouncers was particularly bad in the situation.
Cops getting off is a disgrace.... don't forget they also tried to blacken mcelhattons name In the days after an obvious distraction tactic from them to him
Mickey is a good fella. But 3 children died on his premises and whatever about the response from the Cops the blame lies with him unfortunately.
It's hard to believe that there wasn't a proper queuing system in place. Something so simple avoids this.