American Sports Thread

[Syferus]

Perfect

[Muck Savage]

OK, lets go over this for anyone that doubts Belichick

Scenario 1 - At say 50 sec the Pats cal TO, Seattle run it on 2nd down and don't get in, Pats burn 2nd TO with 40 Sec on the clock. Seattle run it again and don't get in, NE are now out of timeouts with 30 odd seconds on the clock. Seattle let the clock run down to 3 seconds and call a TO with one play to go, 4th down. Now NE don't get the ball back at all.

Scenario 2 (as it happened) - Bold Bill lets the clock run down to 26 secs, now forcing Seattle to throw as they don't want to call TO if they don't get in on a 2nd down run and basically be left with trying to run two plays in 20 Sec, two run plays. So there was a possibility that they would run out of time on 4th down, causing much embarrassment to Pete.

Scenario 3 - If they got in on 2nd down then ~20 Sec on the clock his team would have a couple of shots  with two TO's left. If they didn't get in now he burns a TO stopping the clock at 20 sec, if they get in then he has 15 Sec and one TO left for Brady.  They have another shot at 3rd down and say they again don't get in Seattle burn a TO, or he burns a TO at 10 sec. He has now got 1 shot to stop them and win or Brady has one shot to win the other way if they do score. Either way he leaves his team with a shot

Only other Scenario was to let them score and leave themselves with 50 Sec and the ball, with a TO.

So he forced them into a throw on 2nd down, he knew they would throw and his players knew they would throw the ball. They had seen the formation before so had an idea what was coming so it as about jumping then

Yes he gambled but if he called the TO then he was beat. Like I said in an earlier post, he was calm all through this time while leaping Pete thought he had won the SB with that stupid smile on his face. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time.

[J70]

One of the best for sure, but how do you weigh the accomplishments of coaches and players from different eras? Is Belichick a better coach than Lombardi or Shula and the like? Was Ferguson better than Busby or Shankly or Paisley?  Is Brady better than Montana or Elway or Marino?

[Muck Savage]

The way I measure excellence is longevity of a career and being able to get back to the Super Bowl with not just the same team over 2-3 years but a number of times with different teams. Added to this the ability to make an ordinary player a game winner, that is how I believe you measure coaches against each other.

But you'll always get the loyal fan that wants to believe his team has the best of all time at one time.

[AZOffaly]

I'm sure Belichick had a reason for not calling the timeout, I don't think he just had a brain fart. However I think you may be giving him too much credit. For a start, he couldn't know they were going to throw until he saw the formation, and that was at least 10 seconds off the clock from the previous play. Secondly, as I outlined above, there was a fairly easy way for Seattle to run 3 plays with one timeout, even all runs if they wanted. Thirdly, they could have lined up in run formation, went play action and rolled Wilson out.

No, in my humble opinion Belichicks gamble was along the lines of, f**k this I'm not taking a TO and giving Pete time to think. Let's see if they can keep their cool here. When he saw the formation, I'd say he and his D knew they had a chance.

[AZOffaly]

The way I measure excellence is longevity of a career and being able to get back to the Super Bowl with not just the same team over 2-3 years but a number of times with different teams. Added to this the ability to make an ordinary player a game winner, that is how I believe you measure coaches against each other.

But you'll always get the loyal fan that wants to believe his team has the best of all time at one time.

Agree with all this, and adding the salary cap complications of this era makes his accomplishments even better.

[Clov]

OK, lets go over this for anyone that doubts Belichick

Scenario 1 - At say 50 sec the Pats cal TO, Seattle run it on 2nd down and don't get in, Pats burn 2nd TO with 40 Sec on the clock. Seattle run it again and don't get in, NE are now out of timeouts with 30 odd seconds on the clock. Seattle let the clock run down to 3 seconds and call a TO with one play to go, 4th down. Now NE don't get the ball back at all.

Scenario 2 (as it happened) - Bold Bill lets the clock run down to 26 secs, now forcing Seattle to throw as they don't want to call TO if they don't get in on a 2nd down run and basically be left with trying to run two plays in 20 Sec, two run plays. So there was a possibility that they would run out of time on 4th down, causing much embarrassment to Pete.

Scenario 3 - If they got in on 2nd down then ~20 Sec on the clock his team would have a couple of shots  with two TO's left. If they didn't get in now he burns a TO stopping the clock at 20 sec, if they get in then he has 15 Sec and one TO left for Brady.  They have another shot at 3rd down and say they again don't get in Seattle burn a TO, or he burns a TO at 10 sec. He has now got 1 shot to stop them and win or Brady has one shot to win the other way if they do score. Either way he leaves his team with a shot

Only other Scenario was to let them score and leave themselves with 50 Sec and the ball, with a TO.

So he forced them into a throw on 2nd down, he knew they would throw and his players knew they would throw the ball. They had seen the formation before so had an idea what was coming so it as about jumping then

Yes he gambled but if he called the TO then he was beat. Like I said in an earlier post, he was calm all through this time while leaping Pete thought he had won the SB with that stupid smile on his face. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time.

The reason you call timeout at 1:06 if you are the Pats is that if Seattle scores on 2nd down (or 3rd down) it leaves you around a minute to tie the game. Once it is 2nd and goal from the 1yd line the odds of Seattle scoring are so high that if you're the Pats you have to play for another possession. In fact i think you can make the argument that the best thing for them to do would be to let Seattle score. In any case letting 40s drain of the clock does not strike me as the smart thing to do. He got away with it because his 5th string corner back made the play of his life. (Of course part of the genius of Belichek is that he had the nerve to bench his starter Arrington half way through the game and put an undrafted rookie in there in his place).

[gallsman]

Letting them score when up by 4 would have been daft in my opinion. Make a stop and you win the game.

[AZOffaly]

OK, lets go over this for anyone that doubts Belichick

Scenario 1 - At say 50 sec the Pats cal TO, Seattle run it on 2nd down and don't get in, Pats burn 2nd TO with 40 Sec on the clock. Seattle run it again and don't get in, NE are now out of timeouts with 30 odd seconds on the clock. Seattle let the clock run down to 3 seconds and call a TO with one play to go, 4th down. Now NE don't get the ball back at all.

Scenario 2 (as it happened) - Bold Bill lets the clock run down to 26 secs, now forcing Seattle to throw as they don't want to call TO if they don't get in on a 2nd down run and basically be left with trying to run two plays in 20 Sec, two run plays. So there was a possibility that they would run out of time on 4th down, causing much embarrassment to Pete.

Scenario 3 - If they got in on 2nd down then ~20 Sec on the clock his team would have a couple of shots  with two TO's left. If they didn't get in now he burns a TO stopping the clock at 20 sec, if they get in then he has 15 Sec and one TO left for Brady.  They have another shot at 3rd down and say they again don't get in Seattle burn a TO, or he burns a TO at 10 sec. He has now got 1 shot to stop them and win or Brady has one shot to win the other way if they do score. Either way he leaves his team with a shot

Only other Scenario was to let them score and leave themselves with 50 Sec and the ball, with a TO.

So he forced them into a throw on 2nd down, he knew they would throw and his players knew they would throw the ball. They had seen the formation before so had an idea what was coming so it as about jumping then

Yes he gambled but if he called the TO then he was beat. Like I said in an earlier post, he was calm all through this time while leaping Pete thought he had won the SB with that stupid smile on his face. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time.

The reason you call timeout at 1:06 if you are the Pats is that if Seattle scores on 2nd down (or 3rd down) it leaves you around a minute to tie the game. Once it is 2nd and goal from the 1yd line the odds of Seattle scoring are so high that if you're the Pats you have to play for another possession. In fact i think you can make the argument that the best thing for them to do would be to let Seattle score. In any case letting 40s drain of the clock does not strike me as the smart thing to do. He got away with it because his 5th string corner back made the play of his life. (Of course part of the genius of Belichek is that he had the nerve to bench his starter Arrington half way through the game and put an undrafted rookie in there in his place).

Wasn't it the Patriots and Giants where this happened before. Remember the Giants running back nearly falling down on the one to run the clock?

[AZOffaly]

This is it. I knew there was something, but I couldn't remember the details. Uncanny that it was Belichick again. I wonder was this in his head?

https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/the-super-bowl-bill-belichick-and-letting-your-opponent-score/

[Clov]

OK, lets go over this for anyone that doubts Belichick

Scenario 1 - At say 50 sec the Pats cal TO, Seattle run it on 2nd down and don't get in, Pats burn 2nd TO with 40 Sec on the clock. Seattle run it again and don't get in, NE are now out of timeouts with 30 odd seconds on the clock. Seattle let the clock run down to 3 seconds and call a TO with one play to go, 4th down. Now NE don't get the ball back at all.

Scenario 2 (as it happened) - Bold Bill lets the clock run down to 26 secs, now forcing Seattle to throw as they don't want to call TO if they don't get in on a 2nd down run and basically be left with trying to run two plays in 20 Sec, two run plays. So there was a possibility that they would run out of time on 4th down, causing much embarrassment to Pete.

Scenario 3 - If they got in on 2nd down then ~20 Sec on the clock his team would have a couple of shots  with two TO's left. If they didn't get in now he burns a TO stopping the clock at 20 sec, if they get in then he has 15 Sec and one TO left for Brady.  They have another shot at 3rd down and say they again don't get in Seattle burn a TO, or he burns a TO at 10 sec. He has now got 1 shot to stop them and win or Brady has one shot to win the other way if they do score. Either way he leaves his team with a shot

Only other Scenario was to let them score and leave themselves with 50 Sec and the ball, with a TO.

So he forced them into a throw on 2nd down, he knew they would throw and his players knew they would throw the ball. They had seen the formation before so had an idea what was coming so it as about jumping then

Yes he gambled but if he called the TO then he was beat. Like I said in an earlier post, he was calm all through this time while leaping Pete thought he had won the SB with that stupid smile on his face. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time.

The reason you call timeout at 1:06 if you are the Pats is that if Seattle scores on 2nd down (or 3rd down) it leaves you around a minute to tie the game. Once it is 2nd and goal from the 1yd line the odds of Seattle scoring are so high that if you're the Pats you have to play for another possession. In fact i think you can make the argument that the best thing for them to do would be to let Seattle score. In any case letting 40s drain of the clock does not strike me as the smart thing to do. He got away with it because his 5th string corner back made the play of his life. (Of course part of the genius of Belichek is that he had the nerve to bench his starter Arrington half way through the game and put an undrafted rookie in there in his place).

Wasn't it the Patriots and Giants where this happened before. Remember the Giants running back nearly falling down on the one to run the clock?

That's right, Belichek has form in that regard!
The difference that time compared to this, is that the Pats were only up by one or two points at the time. If my memory serves me right the Giants could have drained the clock to a few secs and then kicked the winning field goal. Up 4pts like they were this time it would be a much ballsier call as the seahawks needed a td. Still think it might have been the thing to do considering the ball was on the 1yd line.

[Canalman]

OK, lets go over this for anyone that doubts Belichick

Scenario 1 - At say 50 sec the Pats cal TO, Seattle run it on 2nd down and don't get in, Pats burn 2nd TO with 40 Sec on the clock. Seattle run it again and don't get in, NE are now out of timeouts with 30 odd seconds on the clock. Seattle let the clock run down to 3 seconds and call a TO with one play to go, 4th down. Now NE don't get the ball back at all.

Scenario 2 (as it happened) - Bold Bill lets the clock run down to 26 secs, now forcing Seattle to throw as they don't want to call TO if they don't get in on a 2nd down run and basically be left with trying to run two plays in 20 Sec, two run plays. So there was a possibility that they would run out of time on 4th down, causing much embarrassment to Pete.

Scenario 3 - If they got in on 2nd down then ~20 Sec on the clock his team would have a couple of shots  with two TO's left. If they didn't get in now he burns a TO stopping the clock at 20 sec, if they get in then he has 15 Sec and one TO left for Brady.  They have another shot at 3rd down and say they again don't get in Seattle burn a TO, or he burns a TO at 10 sec. He has now got 1 shot to stop them and win or Brady has one shot to win the other way if they do score. Either way he leaves his team with a shot

Only other Scenario was to let them score and leave themselves with 50 Sec and the ball, with a TO.

So he forced them into a throw on 2nd down, he knew they would throw and his players knew they would throw the ball. They had seen the formation before so had an idea what was coming so it as about jumping then

Yes he gambled but if he called the TO then he was beat. Like I said in an earlier post, he was calm all through this time while leaping Pete thought he had won the SB with that stupid smile on his face. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time.

Yet if the SS player had caught that ball then Carroll would have "outfoxed" him . Very thin margins here and ultimately imo anyway came down to exceptional defensive work from the NEP guy.

Can see why now how the term "Monday morning quarterback" got traction in the States.

Btw, I wonder if the SS quarterback is getting some heat over the affair or is the coach taking all the flak.

[gallsman]

Against the Giants they were up by two. Giants could have wasted time and kicked a FG from PAT range to win it. Completely different complexion on it.

[AZOffaly]

Against the Giants they were up by two. Giants could have wasted time and kicked a FG from PAT range to win it. Completely different complexion on it.

True.

[AZOffaly]

OK, lets go over this for anyone that doubts Belichick

Scenario 1 - At say 50 sec the Pats cal TO, Seattle run it on 2nd down and don't get in, Pats burn 2nd TO with 40 Sec on the clock. Seattle run it again and don't get in, NE are now out of timeouts with 30 odd seconds on the clock. Seattle let the clock run down to 3 seconds and call a TO with one play to go, 4th down. Now NE don't get the ball back at all.

Scenario 2 (as it happened) - Bold Bill lets the clock run down to 26 secs, now forcing Seattle to throw as they don't want to call TO if they don't get in on a 2nd down run and basically be left with trying to run two plays in 20 Sec, two run plays. So there was a possibility that they would run out of time on 4th down, causing much embarrassment to Pete.

Scenario 3 - If they got in on 2nd down then ~20 Sec on the clock his team would have a couple of shots  with two TO's left. If they didn't get in now he burns a TO stopping the clock at 20 sec, if they get in then he has 15 Sec and one TO left for Brady.  They have another shot at 3rd down and say they again don't get in Seattle burn a TO, or he burns a TO at 10 sec. He has now got 1 shot to stop them and win or Brady has one shot to win the other way if they do score. Either way he leaves his team with a shot

Only other Scenario was to let them score and leave themselves with 50 Sec and the ball, with a TO.

So he forced them into a throw on 2nd down, he knew they would throw and his players knew they would throw the ball. They had seen the formation before so had an idea what was coming so it as about jumping then

Yes he gambled but if he called the TO then he was beat. Like I said in an earlier post, he was calm all through this time while leaping Pete thought he had won the SB with that stupid smile on his face. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time.

Yet if the SS player had caught that ball then Carroll would have "outfoxed" him . Very thin margins here and ultimately imo anyway came down to exceptional defensive work from the NEP guy.

Can see why now how the term "Monday morning quarterback" got traction in the States.

Btw, I wonder if the SS quarterback is getting some heat over the affair or is the coach taking all the flak.

This is not purely MMQB really, because when the call was made I'd say there was a collective roar of 'What!!??'. I know I did at the time. MMQB is usually lads looking back with loads of time and trying to be clever. This was an instant reaction.

As regards Wilson, I don't think it was a bad throw as such. I think the DB did brilliantly, but if I was looking for a Seattle player to have a go at, it might be the WR who was out muscled for the ball. I don't think someone like Larry Fitzgerald would have been beaten for that ball in that situation, or if he was he would have made sure the DB couldn't catch it at least. The DB had brilliant closing speed in fairness though.