A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[johnnycool]

there are huge swathes of nationalist kids in both Derry and Belfast not in the gaa fold, surely the aim should be get all our own first before licking the holes of any loyalist knackers to play GAA

Fair play to you for setting out how you feel. I get the impression there are others who agree with you but are too embarrassed to admit to it.

By setting out that Catholic kids outside the GAA fold our "own" but Protestants living alongside them are not you are already setting out the organisation as a catholic one. An unhelpful starting position.

To dress up some minor changes you are being asked to make as "licking the holes of some loyalist knackers" probably means you are not going to be at the vanguard of moving this place forward

The GAA can't and won't be forced to make the necessary changes. But if it takes that intransigent stance then it will come at a price

We know that the UK civil service is looking at housing, schooling and public expenditure in NI to try to reduce the long term deficit. In that regard there is a realisation that funding segregated housing, segregated schooling and capital projects that maintain cultural separation is a bad use of public funds (as more funds have to be found to manage the ongoing impacts of the lack of social cohesion).

If you don't reach out to unionism you won't be able to reach out for the cheque. The choice is yours

Google "Cantrell Close"

Know it only too well.

It's the problem writ large

So what are going to do about it

Sit back and do nothing and your cowardice betrays the generation coming behind you.
Retaliation that displays the same bigotry is even more cowardly and betrays society to an even greater extent.

This society needs to move forward together. There will be knuckle staggers on both sides. Recognise them for what they are, call them out, by all means engage with them to try to shift them along the evolutionary spectrum but we can only stall so much and for so long

I suppose in a normal society the police would do their job and remove the offending flags once a complaint is received, but the pass the buck when it comes to these types of flags. Harder still when the sitting MLA for the area sees no issue with them in what is meant to be a "shared" housing scheme.

Throw up a tricolour and they'll be round in double quick time.

[smelmoth]

Wonder how many clubs are actively supporting the Irish language or traditional music, song etc?
Time for the basic aim to be the promotion of the Gaelic games of football, hurling....etc.
Leave politics to the politicians,  Traditional music to Comhaltas, The language to Conradh and so on.

Agreed. No need for the GAA to act like it's the sporting equivilent of the Wolfe Tones (not a bad auld group, but not exactly agents of cross-community understanding). The one positive of the new age corporate GAA bean counters is that they will likely shy away from the jingoism over the next few decades and try to appeal to other ethnic groups in the country. Money tends to be a powerful motivation.

The club I'm from promotes all of the above. I would imagine they will continue to do so. If this puts people from a different background from joining our club then I'm sorry about that but this is what we are. Take it or leave it.

Fine. Don't make any effort to make Protestants feel welcome. Don't try to grow your club by recruiting from an under-represented demographic. Stick to your little clique and shun all outsiders, newcomers, and everyone who doesn't look like you. But don't come crying to me when unionists keep attacking Irish culture because they think it's alien or threatening to them.

So you think our club should stop the Irish language evening classes?  We should stop teaching kids how to play Irish music so they can enter Scor?

Where did I say anything remotely close to that? If I had my way there'd be a lot more protestants attending said Irish language evening classes, learning Irish music, and participating in Scór. But it's not going to happen in your club if it's named after an INLA man.

I'm sorry but I don't see why the club should have to change its name to suit a handful of Protestants? Kevin Lynch means more to the people of Dungiven and the rest of the North than what it would mean to have a few Protestants join the club. Leave the clubs as they are. If anyone new wants to join, then come ahead. If not, then stay away. You take away names, take away the anthem, take away the flag. Jesus men, have some pride in yourselves.

Lynch was a renegade, a bully and a thug. He means very little to the majority of the people in NI

Did you know him?

My parents did. Aul fella wouldn't have a great word for him.

Ah right. Your daddy told you. 

What's your problem?

[smelmoth]

there are huge swathes of nationalist kids in both Derry and Belfast not in the gaa fold, surely the aim should be get all our own first before licking the holes of any loyalist knackers to play GAA

Fair play to you for setting out how you feel. I get the impression there are others who agree with you but are too embarrassed to admit to it.

By setting out that Catholic kids outside the GAA fold our "own" but Protestants living alongside them are not you are already setting out the organisation as a catholic one. An unhelpful starting position.

To dress up some minor changes you are being asked to make as "licking the holes of some loyalist knackers" probably means you are not going to be at the vanguard of moving this place forward

The GAA can't and won't be forced to make the necessary changes. But if it takes that intransigent stance then it will come at a price

We know that the UK civil service is looking at housing, schooling and public expenditure in NI to try to reduce the long term deficit. In that regard there is a realisation that funding segregated housing, segregated schooling and capital projects that maintain cultural separation is a bad use of public funds (as more funds have to be found to manage the ongoing impacts of the lack of social cohesion).

If you don't reach out to unionism you won't be able to reach out for the cheque. The choice is yours

Google "Cantrell Close"

Know it only too well.

It's the problem writ large

So what are going to do about it

Sit back and do nothing and your cowardice betrays the generation coming behind you.
Retaliation that displays the same bigotry is even more cowardly and betrays society to an even greater extent.

This society needs to move forward together. There will be knuckle staggers on both sides. Recognise them for what they are, call them out, by all means engage with them to try to shift them along the evolutionary spectrum but we can only stall so much and for so long

I suppose in a normal society the police would do their job and remove the offending flags once a complaint is received, but the pass the buck when it comes to these types of flags. Harder still when the sitting MLA for the area sees no issue with them in what is meant to be a "shared" housing scheme.

Throw up a tricolour and they'll be round in double quick time.

We don't live in a normal society. So no, the police do not always do their job. They pass the buck. It's partially explained by resourcing but not fully

You seem to think this is because of the flag in question. Where is this example of the tricolour being forceably taken down in double quick time?


P.S. completely agree on Pengelly

[Orior]

On the one hand I hear:

- Population change and religious headcount swaying towards a catholic/nationalist majority
- Unionism will self implode as too many chiefs fight each other
- England wants to jettison this expensive and troublesome colony for which they get no benefit
- United Ireland is only a matter of years away
- an easy solution to Brexit is that England drops its claim to the occupied six counties

On the other hand:
- A United Ireland is as far away as ever
- SF do more damage to re-unification than bring it closer
- Ireland does not want burdened with the occupied six
- A lot of six county catholics prefer to suckle off mother England's nipple

So which is it?

[smelmoth]

On the one hand I hear:

- Population change and religious headcount swaying towards a catholic/nationalist majority
- Unionism will self implode as too many chiefs fight each other
- England wants to jettison this expensive and troublesome colony for which they get no benefit
- United Ireland is only a matter of years away
- an easy solution to Brexit is that England drops its claim to the occupied six counties

On the other hand:
- A United Ireland is as far away as ever
- SF do more damage to re-unification than bring it closer
- Ireland does not want burdened with the occupied six
- A lot of six county catholics prefer to suckle off mother England's nipple

So which is it?

Demographics bit is probably true. It doesn't fully explain what would happen in a border poll though
The DUP certainly could implode. Can't see them maintaining discipline among the factions
GB won't jettison NI. They will let it go if it votes to leave. In the interim it is looking at the cost. It's not just a matter of cutting the spending (although the general austerity impacts are felt here as much as anywhere) but positively trying to do things that manage down the running costs
England dropping its claim to resolve Brexit issues. Where did you hear that?
There is no serious debate in ROI about the cost of a United Ireland. SF ask you to consider aUI in a hazy dreamlike stupor
People north and south would have serious economic implications to consider if there ever was a serious UI debate

[OgraAnDun]

A figure of speech.
One that I thought you might have been familiar with.

Increasingly I find that young people are disinterested in the details of the troubles

I think that was true until the flag protests and the recent crocodile stuff. I was still in school around the time of the flag protests and I saw attitudes to politics change almost overnight among my peers.

[Keyser soze]

Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

[smelmoth]

Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you consider that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?

[smelmoth]

A figure of speech.
One that I thought you might have been familiar with.

Increasingly I find that young people are disinterested in the details of the troubles

I think that was true until the flag protests and the recent crocodile stuff. I was still in school around the time of the flag protests and I saw attitudes to politics change almost overnight among my peers.

Completely disagree re the crocodile stuff. Crass stupidity on Arlene 's part but dismissed as such by most people. Didn't hear anyone reference the troubles in that context

The flags I can kind of see where you are coming from. That issue did politicise and along traditional lines but I would disagree that brought debate of the troubles to the fore

[johnnycool]

A figure of speech.
One that I thought you might have been familiar with.

Increasingly I find that young people are disinterested in the details of the troubles

I think that was true until the flag protests and the recent crocodile stuff. I was still in school around the time of the flag protests and I saw attitudes to politics change almost overnight among my peers.

Completely disagree re the crocodile stuff. Crass stupidity on Arlene 's part but dismissed as such by most people. Didn't hear anyone reference the troubles in that context

The flags I can kind of see where you are coming from. That issue did politicise and along traditional lines but I would disagree that brought debate of the troubles to the fore

It certainly brought the "them and us" home to a lot of young nationalists who hitherto weren't overly interested or understanding of the fault lines in NI, the millennials so to speak were awakened and the Shinners gained.

[smelmoth]

A figure of speech.
One that I thought you might have been familiar with.

Increasingly I find that young people are disinterested in the details of the troubles

I think that was true until the flag protests and the recent crocodile stuff. I was still in school around the time of the flag protests and I saw attitudes to politics change almost overnight among my peers.

Completely disagree re the crocodile stuff. Crass stupidity on Arlene 's part but dismissed as such by most people. Didn't hear anyone reference the troubles in that context

The flags I can kind of see where you are coming from. That issue did politicise and along traditional lines but I would disagree that brought debate of the troubles to the fore

It certainly brought the "them and us" home to a lot of young nationalists who hitherto weren't overly interested or understanding of the fault lines in NI, the millennials so to speak were awakened and the Shinners gained.

That bit I do agree with

[Keyser soze]

Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?

So just a criminal then?

[Owen Brannigan]

The problem that we find now is that there is no way forward because both sides have declared on a subject on which neither can retreat any further.

On one hand SF has made major concessions from its January 2017 stance:

1. A very diluted ILA compared to its previous ministerial position and to the minimum required by the various Irish language organisations that thought they were leading the way.

2. Depend on DUP not using the PoC to allow SSM when the Assembly returns.

3. No mention of excluding Foster until she is 'cleared' by the inquiry, in fact no mention of RHI at all

In return, DUP has failed to deliver:

1. Not even any hint that legislation on the Irish language would be accepted where it might be construed in any fudge as an ILA for SF

2. No reformation of the PoC and while it cannot use it alone to block SSM it can count on TUV and a few UUP to use this legislation as it needs it.

DUP is trying to shift its stance to using UK parliament and show it doesn't need the Assembly in the hope that as a GE approaches in RoI, SF will want to be in government to show it is a capable coalition partner in the south.

UK government continues to support DUP as it has major problems with its own rebel remainer MPs.  Sets a budget for 2018-19 and lets NICS run the show for another 12 months.  The sky didn't fall in over the last 400+ days and the public didn't make much of a fuss other than to prefer that MLAs had their pay cut.

The problem causing this stasis is the lack of a competitive electoral system brought in by DUP and SF at the St Andrews Agreement whereby the FM would belong to the largest party and not the largest community representation or even voted for by the whole Assembly. 

SF agreed to this as a way of demanding all nationalist votes to try to take the position and nearly made it at the last election.  DUP wanted this to destroy the UUP by ensuring maximum vote could be pulled out for DUP to prevent a SF FM.

This crazy situation needs to be removed to allow competitive elections rather than creating parallel one party systems that we now have and have allowed the current impasse to occur.

[BennyCake]

Reading this thread is like listening to the Nolan show.

[east down gael]

I would say up until the flag protests that the question of the future of 'northern ireland' had been largely settled. The young people/millennials had no interest in the petty squabbling which passes for politics here. Stormont,while not ideal, seemed to be working.
   In the background I'm convinced the DUP were acutely award of the changing demographics which included the catholic population becoming the majority. In order to prevent this becoming a nationalist/republican majority,they had to make Northern Ireland a working entity,where Catholics didn't mind living and felt appreciated. Peter Robinson seemed to be doing this,with gestures of going to pairc esler, and his friendship with MMG.and it was working.all sorts of polls were showing that people were identifying themselves as northern Irish,and large percentages of Catholics would vote to maintain status quo etc. I honestly believe if this course had been continued,the constitutional question would have faded.
For some reason tho the DUP did an about turn. The flag protests were a disaster.all of a sudden a generation of Catholics that had no memory of the troubles,or drumcree even,were made to think maybe Northern Ireland can't work.things have got rapidly worse since then.
Without mapping out everything that has led to where we are now,I believe the DUP have been incapable of allowing Northern Ireland to become a place where irishness is viewed as equal to Britishness.every attempt to do this has been dressed up as a concession,when it's only what the DUP should have been doing to secure the union.when you add in their position on brexit,I honestly can't think of anything more they could have done to bring about an end to the union they profess to maintain.