The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[imtommygunn]

Someone cited the word "consent". I merely responded that "consenting" to do something that is morally wrong doesn't make it right.

50 years ago homosexuality was a crime,now it is about to be fully "normalised" and given full and equal status with normal heterosexual relationships.And some people think my analogy of marrying your dog is a tad far fetched?

Someone cited the word "consent". I merely responded that "consenting" to do something that is morally wrong doesn't make it right.

50 years ago homosexuality was a crime,now it is about to be fully "normalised" and given full and equal status with normal heterosexual relationships.And some people think my analogy of marrying your dog is a tad far fetched?

Well to pick holes in your analogy then... did the third person consent to be killed? So you have went from two consensual adults to one adult and one dog or two adults conspiring against one. Hardly the analogies of someone with a rational point.

It's not that it's far fetched - it's that it doesn't make any sense. The comparison illustrates, and reeks of, homophobia.

I guess two out of three in your analogy is a democracy though. Though what people like you would do in case a democratic decision goes against them is to raise a petition of concern first just in case it doesn't suit you so I guess the third person could do that and be safe anyway!

Reading between the lines it seems like you wouldn't be against homosexuality being criminalised either. Is that the case?

[topcuppla]

Exactly.Society was a hell of a lot better 50 years ago,before wealth,greed and anything goes took over.Politicians were generally motivated by public service and conviction and not in the back pocket of corporates.People looked out for each other,and there was a definite sense and distinction between right and wrong, underpinned by a strong moral compass.

Is that 50 years ago when children could be passed around priests to be raped and abused without any fear of retribution?

[topcuppla]

10. Women and marriage domesticate men.

Men who are married earn more, work harder, drink less, live longer, spend more time attending religious services, and are more sexually faithful. They also see their testosterone levels drop, especially when they have children in the home.

That has to be the biggest bullshit statement ever, the divorce rate is nearly 50% in UK and America, and that's not because the men or women are going to mass, drinking hot chocolate and settling for the odd ride on their birthday!

[gallsman]

Exactly.Society was a hell of a lot better 50 years ago,before wealth,greed and anything goes took over.Politicians were generally motivated by public service and conviction and not in the back pocket of corporates.People looked out for each other,and there was a definite sense and distinction between right and wrong, underpinned by a strong moral compass.

Is that 50 years ago when children could be passed around priests to be raped and abused without any fear of retribution?

Oh don't get Tony started on the Church and sexual abuse. In his eyes, only individuals, not the church as an institution, have a case to answer there.

[muppet]

Here's some arguments for you J70 just for some light reading. I'm happy enough with all the points and I'll stand by my original point from the article I first posted a few pages back. Broken homes aren't cause to create more broken homes.

Ten Arguments From Social Science Against Same-Sex Marriage
By Family Research Council

A large and growing body of scientific evidence indicates that the intact, married family is best for children. In particular, the work of scholars David Popenoe, Linda Waite, Maggie Gallagher, Sara McLanahan, David Blankenhorn, Paul Amato, and Alan Booth has contributed to this conclusion.

This statement from Sara McLanahan, a sociologist at Princeton University, is representative:

If we were asked to design a system for making sure that children's basic needs were met, we would probably come up with something quite similar to the two-parent ideal. Such a design, in theory, would not only ensure that children had access to the time and money of two adults, it also would provide a system of checks and balances that promoted quality parenting. The fact that both parents have a biological connection to the child would increase the likelihood that the parents would identify with the child and be willing to sacrifice for that child, and it would reduce the likelihood that either parent would abuse the child.

Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur, Growing Up with a Single Parent: What Hurts, What Helps (Boston: Harvard University Press, 1994) 38.

The following are ten science-based arguments against same-sex "marriage":

1. Children hunger for their biological parents.

Homosexual couples using in vitro fertilization (IVF) or surrogate mothers deliberately create a class of children who will live apart from their mother or father. Yale Child Study Center psychiatrist Kyle Pruett reports that children of IVF often ask their single or lesbian mothers about their fathers, asking their mothers questions like the following:"Mommy, what did you do with my daddy?" "Can I write him a letter?" "Has he ever seen me?" "Didn't you like him? Didn't he like me?" Elizabeth Marquardt reports that children of divorce often report similar feelings about their non-custodial parent, usually the father.

Kyle Pruett, Fatherneed (Broadway Books, 2001) 204.

Elizabeth Marquardt, The Moral and Spiritual Lives of Children of Divorce. Forthcoming.

I stopped reading after this. It deliberately muddles single-mothers, IVF, surrogates and same-sex couples all into one religious pariah and says 'will someone think of the children?' again, while firmly pointing the finger at same-sex marriages. If the rest is anything like that it is not worth wasting time over.

Iceman, no one from the No side has addressed the 'right' of children not to be born to serial killers, rapists and oh say fathers who work abroad. How about parents who work in the military? Not a dickie bird about being a child of a Dad in Afghanistan. Life sucks sometimes, but the above is pretending that every straight person lives a wonderful idyllic childhood with two loving parents always on hand to guide and nurture.

[andoireabu]

I couldn't give a shite what gays get up to in their own time. I just don't agree with same sex "marriage". It doesn't mean I'm anti-gay, nor anyone else who thinks likewise, but that's how it's portrayed.

If you don't care what they get up to on their own time why do you care if they do things as a married couple rather than a civil partnership?  Genuine question as I can't see why anybody who has no issue with gay people living their lives would have an issue with them being married.

[muppet]

http://daneohiggins.com/2015/04/24/5-reasons-to-vote-no/

5 REASONS TO VOTE NO

APRIL 24, 2015 DAN HIGGINS   

There's a referendum coming up, just in case you didn't know. The referendum concerns two issues:

Should the age of a Presidential Candidate be lowered from 35 to 21 years of age and;
Should marriage be extended equally to all persons regardless of sex.
The second one, as you would imagine, is gathering more interest. What with it concerning all people having equal rights and all. Here are 5 reasons you should vote No on number 2, maybe even number 1.

1. You like things just the way they are: Change, why would you change anything at all? You like things the way they are. Everything in its place. Change is scary after all. The fact is that if this passes and we as a country vote Yes then Ireland will slip off the shelf and plunge into the Atlantic...FACT!

2. Standards of Weddings: If we allow everyone to have equal rights and marry who they love then the fact is that the LGBT community will probably set the standard for Weddings impossibly high. There will be colours and themes that the average Irish man could never dream of or indeed live up to. Look at Panti Bliss for example. That chick knows how to throw a party. Imagine that. Shindigs like the country has never seen before.

3. Increase in Tourism: Ireland voting No in this referendum will send a clear signal to the world that we are still that country which likes to segregate people, push people to the fringes of society and deny equality to all. We could see an increase in visitors from groups such as the Neo-Nazis, the KKK and perhaps even The Westboro Baptist Church.

4. Parenting: Voting yes in this referendum might give LGBT people more power to have, raise, adopt and love children of their very own. Two people of the same sex raising a child couldn't possibly do a good job of that. Never before in human history have we seen two people of the same sex raising a child. Nope, never. It would be a disaster. Like a Mother helping her Daughter raise her child or a Father giving advice to his Son. Imagine a child having two loving Mothers or two adoring Fathers? Awful stuff altogether.

5. You're a moron: That's right. You should definitely vote No if you are a moron. If you believe it is absolutely paramount to deny equality to all people then you should vote no. If you believe that not all people deserve happiness then vote no. If you believe you have the right to interfere in other peoples decisions and who they can marry then vote no.

Ireland is on the verge of change right now. We have some very draconian traditions and laws which quite simply have no place in the modern world. Love is one of those things you don't choose, it just happens. To live in a country where you are made to feel like a second class citizen because you are denied a basic right afforded to others must be heart breaking and utterly demoralising.

I became a father recently. My little girl is on the verge of turning 6 months old. I want nothing but happiness for her in her future. If she grows up and decides that she would like to marry the love of her life then I hope she can do so without impediment. It shouldn't matter if that person is a male or a female, it should only matter that she loves them and that they love her.

I'll be voting Yes in this election. My generation and the generations before me still refer to people as straight people, gay people, lesbian people, transgender people and bisexual people. Maybe a yes vote will take us one step closer to my Daughters generation just having people. One big group of happy people.

[deiseach]

Bloody hell. If I were undecided, I'd definitely vote No after reading that.

[macdanger2]

[2. Standards of Weddings: If we allow everyone to have equal rights and marry who they love then the fact is that the LGBT community will probably set the standard for Weddings impossibly high. There will be colours and themes that the average Irish man could never dream of or indeed live up to. Look at Panti Bliss for example. That chick knows how to throw a party. Imagine that. Shindigs like the country has never seen before.

Farrandeelin will definitely be voting No so, a Yes vote will cost him a(nother) bomb in the wedding 

[screenexile]

Why does this Gay Couple parenting thing keep rearing its head in this debate both in here and on posters all over Dublin about surrogacy.

The referendum is about Gay marriage can we not just debate the actual issue.

My own view is I think it'll pass as our Country has moved out of the dark ages of being supressed by the Church telling us what's wrong and what's right. The No campaign have their reasons and while many are homophobic I don't think that all are.

Ignorant yes but I don't think inherently homophobic they have been brought up in a certain way that the Church is too important and they can't seem to think for themselves outside of it to form their own opinions. This is changing though and I think within the next 100 years Ireland including the North will be free from that nonsense and not have a draconian Catholic Church dictating how we should live our lives.

We are definitely progressing!!

[nrico2006]

Marriage has been for defined for centuries as being between a man and a woman, therefore I don't see how two women or two men being united can be deemed to be 'marriage'.  Why try and redefine something?  The union of two people of the same sex should be something that is available to anybody who wants it, but it should have its own identity.   

[screenexile]

Marriage has been for defined for centuries as being between a man and a woman, therefore I don't see how two women or two men being united can be deemed to be 'marriage'.  Why try and redefine something?  The union of two people of the same sex should be something that is available to anybody who wants it, but it should have its own identity.   

Orangemen have marched the streets of Northern Ireland traditionally for hundreds of years... why are we trying to change it? If it's tradition we should just let them keep at it!

Slavery as well. It's allowed in the bible and has been a tradition for thousands of years before it was abolished we should go back to that!!

[BennyCake]

http://daneohiggins.com/2015/04/24/5-reasons-to-vote-no/

5 REASONS TO VOTE NO

APRIL 24, 2015 DAN HIGGINS   

There's a referendum coming up, just in case you didn't know. The referendum concerns two issues:

Should the age of a Presidential Candidate be lowered from 35 to 21 years of age and;
Should marriage be extended equally to all persons regardless of sex.
The second one, as you would imagine, is gathering more interest. What with it concerning all people having equal rights and all. Here are 5 reasons you should vote No on number 2, maybe even number 1.

1. You like things just the way they are: Change, why would you change anything at all? You like things the way they are. Everything in its place. Change is scary after all. The fact is that if this passes and we as a country vote Yes then Ireland will slip off the shelf and plunge into the Atlantic...FACT!

2. Standards of Weddings: If we allow everyone to have equal rights and marry who they love then the fact is that the LGBT community will probably set the standard for Weddings impossibly high. There will be colours and themes that the average Irish man could never dream of or indeed live up to. Look at Panti Bliss for example. That chick knows how to throw a party. Imagine that. Shindigs like the country has never seen before.

3. Increase in Tourism: Ireland voting No in this referendum will send a clear signal to the world that we are still that country which likes to segregate people, push people to the fringes of society and deny equality to all. We could see an increase in visitors from groups such as the Neo-Nazis, the KKK and perhaps even The Westboro Baptist Church.

4. Parenting: Voting yes in this referendum might give LGBT people more power to have, raise, adopt and love children of their very own. Two people of the same sex raising a child couldn't possibly do a good job of that. Never before in human history have we seen two people of the same sex raising a child. Nope, never. It would be a disaster. Like a Mother helping her Daughter raise her child or a Father giving advice to his Son. Imagine a child having two loving Mothers or two adoring Fathers? Awful stuff altogether.

5. You're a moron: That's right. You should definitely vote No if you are a moron. If you believe it is absolutely paramount to deny equality to all people then you should vote no. If you believe that not all people deserve happiness then vote no. If you believe you have the right to interfere in other peoples decisions and who they can marry then vote no.

Ireland is on the verge of change right now. We have some very draconian traditions and laws which quite simply have no place in the modern world. Love is one of those things you don't choose, it just happens. To live in a country where you are made to feel like a second class citizen because you are denied a basic right afforded to others must be heart breaking and utterly demoralising.

I became a father recently. My little girl is on the verge of turning 6 months old. I want nothing but happiness for her in her future. If she grows up and decides that she would like to marry the love of her life then I hope she can do so without impediment. It shouldn't matter if that person is a male or a female, it should only matter that she loves them and that they love her.

I'll be voting Yes in this election. My generation and the generations before me still refer to people as straight people, gay people, lesbian people, transgender people and bisexual people. Maybe a yes vote will take us one step closer to my Daughters generation just having people. One big group of happy people.

Ah, the moron card has been played. That's right, if you don't vote Yes, you're a moron. Regardless of your opinion, religion, beliefs, morals, you're a moron.

This is what I was referring to.

[BennyCake]

I couldn't give a shite what gays get up to in their own time. I just don't agree with same sex "marriage". It doesn't mean I'm anti-gay, nor anyone else who thinks likewise, but that's how it's portrayed.

If you don't care what they get up to on their own time why do you care if they do things as a married couple rather than a civil partnership?  Genuine question as I can't see why anybody who has no issue with gay people living their lives would have an issue with them being married.

Like nrico said, it's not marriage. If gays want to sign a form stating their pension goes to the other, that's fair enough. It's their pension to do as they please. But there should be no "marriage" ceremony. No adoption or ivf either.

The next thing they'll want is gay "marriages" in churches. I'm not religious but that is a massive no no. But of course they'll get this vote and the church will be under pressure to give in to it. And if they decline, it'll be the old draconian church response again.

[nrico2006]

Marriage has been for defined for centuries as being between a man and a woman, therefore I don't see how two women or two men being united can be deemed to be 'marriage'.  Why try and redefine something?  The union of two people of the same sex should be something that is available to anybody who wants it, but it should have its own identity.   

Orangemen have marched the streets of Northern Ireland traditionally for hundreds of years... why are we trying to change it? If it's tradition we should just let them keep at it!

Slavery as well. It's allowed in the bible and has been a tradition for thousands of years before it was abolished we should go back to that!!

Bif of a difference.  Nobody is trying to redefine marching or slavery.  They are what they are.