Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:09:33 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

longrunsthefox

#436
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:17:53 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:09:33 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

What are you?... a sex therapist?  :o  I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:24:09 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

longrunsthefox

#438
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:27:04 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:24:09 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.

The name calling and insults cut no ice with Mr Fox  8) ... stop making excuses about celebacy for paedophiles.

Fear ón Srath Bán

A childish, rabble-raiser and mob ruler. Tabloid trash.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

longrunsthefox

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:33:50 AM
A childish, rabble-raiser and mob ruler. Tabloid trash.

Is too serious a subject to give that the reply it merits. Goodnite       

Sandino

#441
In my opinion the celibacy issue is a discourse it has little bearing in relation to sex attacks on children. most people who abuse children are married hetrosexual men. I have also read somewhere that the percentage of abusers within the church is equal to most other professions.
"You can go proudly. You are history. You are legend''

longrunsthefox

Quote from: Sandino on November 27, 2009, 12:41:24 AM
In my opinion the celibacy issue is a discourse it has little bearing in relation to sex attacks on children. most people who abuse children are married hetrosexual men. I have also read somewhere that the persentage of abusers within the church is equal to most other professions.

Good luck Sandino... Strabane man will give you hell for that opinion  :o

Sandino

I disagree with celibacy but i think that it  is a different issue from the abuse of children.
"You can go proudly. You are history. You are legend''

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: Sandino on November 27, 2009, 12:41:24 AM
In my opinion the celibacy issue is a discourse it has little bearing in relation to sex attacks on children. most people who abuse children are married hetrosexual men. I have also read somewhere that the persentage of abusers within the church is equal to most other professions.

I'd like to see the stats on that Sandino.  I'm talking about percentages, not absolute figures, i.e., there are many more married heterosexual men than priests, so by the law of averages alone that would be expected, but I'd say there's more than the law of averages at work. Again, I'd like to see stats on the professions.

And bear in mind that a lot of the abuse within the Church is only coming to light now, i.e., whenever those statistics were gathered it might still have been the case that there was no abuse within the Catholic Church at all, virtually, or very little, i.e., no more than the equal of other professions.

And I agree, that celibacy is no excuse, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a vocation such as the priesthood that involves and embodies the care, protection and support of all in society, especially for the most vulnerable, but which ends up actually being the greatest persecutor of the most vulnerable and needful in society represents something more than a statistical aberration. It represents a perversion.
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

rossie mad

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...


As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past. 

Pangurban

Well said Rossie Mad, the church is bigger than any Pope,Bishop,Priest or pervert. Sweeping changes will be required, but the Church will survive because people like you recognise the postive contributions it has and  can make to society. Trust no Pope,Bishop or Priest, let our trust be in God alone

ludermor

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:27:04 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:24:09 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.
Whether you are meaning it or not it sounds to me that you are using celibacy as an excuse ( or an explaination). You may have a point but its more like a theory unless you can back it up woth some stats.

mylestheslasher

Quote from: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 01:57:23 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...


As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

You have completely missed the point. But at least you replied unlike most of the other devout catholics on the board. I presume that you are a christian first and foremost. That is believe in Jesus Christ, son of god sent to earth to save us. As a Christain you believe in the bible as the word of god. That is my starting point.

All a church is, is a vehicle for you to express the above beliefs is it not? There are many christian organised churches and there are many christians that live their lives by the bible without the need for any church.

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

A very simple analogy - I love GAA and am a member of a club. If that club were shown to be harbouring child abusers I would leave that club without hesitation. I might join another club or I might not but it doesn't stop me still loving the GAA does it?


Rois

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 08:20:13 AM

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.



Maybe it isn't your intention myles but it upsets me that others are insinuating that by not disassociating yourself from the Church in the wake of this means you are somehow condoning or at least excusing or ignoring what's gone on.

Well if you're going to use the GAA in this context, could I also liken parishes to clubs - the Catholic Church to me is more than a hierarchy - it's a community thing, much like the GAA club. 
I had a fantastic experience with those involved in the church while growing up, and since.  I don't want to see my parish community disintegrate.  The nuns and priests who had a bearing on my life were nothing but inspiring in their Christian values. 
And that to me is the Catholic Church - if any of those clergy that I had contact with on a regular basis were involved in any cover-up or directly in abuse, then I'd be disgusted on a personal level (and am with those I've never had any contact with), but I also won't forget how much comfort their colleagues brought me after a bereavement, the investment they put into teaching Christian behaviours and the joy and friendships they encouraged through involvement in parish life. 

What's being uncovered now is sad and the perpitrators (in whatever sense) should be held accountable, hopefully beginning with the replacement of those guilty parties still involved in the Church.  But on a daily basis, this affair will not change my memories or practices with the Church, and I hope that people don't try to make me feel guilty for it.