Tax Avoidance

[lenny]

Don't necessarily agree with all this but some interesting points:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/07/tax-bono-harming-world-poorest-glastonbury-avoidance-paradise-papers

Tax rogues like Bono are harming the world's poorest people

In 2011 I organised a protest at U2's headline gig at Glastonbury. As Bono sang The Fly, a 9ft wide, 24ft high balloon was inflated at the front of the audience bearing the words U PAY TAX 2?. The protest was prompted by U2's decision in 2006 to move their tax affairs from Ireland to the Netherlands, after the Irish government decided to cap the tax-free exemption on royalties at €225,000 (before this, artists in Ireland were not obliged to pay any tax on royalties). The aim of the action was to highlight the impact of transnational tax dodging on the developing world. In a chilling report, Christian Aid estimated that $160bn is lost to the developing world each year as profits made in poorer countries are shifted to wealthier tax havens.

A few days before the protest, the co-founder of Bono's charity One, Jamie Drummond, telephoned me to try to persuade me to call off the action, citing worries that we might undermine Bono's campaigning efforts. We had a long conversation in which I eventually suggested that, regardless of what we do, Bono's tax affairs will inevitably cast a shadow over his campaigning. At this point Drummond became slightly aggressive, and insisted that it was our actions alone that were doing damage.

With the recent Paradise Papers revelations concerning Bono's finances, it looks like my prediction has come to pass. Bono chose to invest in a company based in ultra-low tax Malta, which incorporated a Lithuanian company – in order to buy a shopping centre – which has paid no tax in Lithuania despite having made profits. The company was later transferred to zero-tax (on company profits) Guernsey. To be fair to Bono, he is not creating artificial structures in order to avoid paying tax on his income (the kind of practice adopted by some of the stars of Mrs Brown's Boys). However, by making this investment, he supported ultra-low tax jurisdictions and elaborate structures for cheating tax. And it is these things which are so harmful, not only to ordinary people in developed countries but also to the developing world.

I am now a philosophy professor, using teaching and writing to campaign instead of massive balloons. And if anything, my research has shown how the harm caused to the developing world is now even more undeniable. Perhaps six years ago Bono could be forgiven for not accepting the message of our campaign. But in a dramatic turn around, even the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is now warning of the damage to the developing world caused by profit shifting. Bono has responded by expressing horror that a company he has invested in has broken rules. However, it is at best naive not to assume that elaborate company structures involving low-tax jurisdictions are set up for the purpose of shifting profits.

Of course this is partly about regulation. The international tax rules were designed for an era before globalisation and technological advances made global profit-shifting possible, and they are no longer fit for purpose. But while lax regulation makes tax cheating possible, when wealthy individuals like Bono "shop around" different countries for the best tax deal they fan the flames of tax competition, putting ever more pressure on countries around the world to cut their tax rates.

This leads to a race to the bottom in which around the world there is ever less money for schools, hospitals and the public good. Tax competition also undermines democratic self-determination. It ought to be the prerogative of legitimate governments to decide on the appropriate level of tax. By creating the downward pressure of tax competition, wealthy individuals limit the choices of sovereign states.

The rallying cry for Brexit was to "take back control". In fact, it is not the EU that is sapping our self-determination, but the wealthy individuals and transnational corporations that hold countries to ransom through the mechanism of tax competition. Bono and Drummond have good intentions. But what they can't see is that our current economic system is not working either for the developing world or for ordinary people in the developed world. If we want to help the developing world, we need to oppose that system – not encourage it.

• Philip Goff is associate professor in philosophy at Central European University in Budapest

He does make some valid points about the "race to the bottom" and tax laws not keeping up with technology. But my view is that this is a governance issue and its the legislators who should be held to account for it, not the individuals. Pay the money to employ some proper, shit hot tax advisers to draft the legislation (not some career civil servant) or engage a Big 4 firm on a proper, incentivised contract (% of tax saved??) to close the loopholes. You can bet that if KPMG/PWC/Deloitte were getting a £ for every £100 saved through closing some of these schemes they would have things locked down pretty tight.

There is an attempt through the OECD/ G20 Base Erosion and Profit Shifting (BEPS) legislation to eliminate  tax planning strategies that exploit gaps and mismatches in tax rules to artificially shift profits to low or no-tax locations where there is little or no economic activity. Although some of the schemes used are illegal, most are not. I think about 100 jurisdictions have signed up but the issue in this is the "unilateral" element, i.e. act 1st and you get stung. The Irish experience is pretty fresh in terms of the investment that can attracted through a low tax regime and other countries dont want to move first in case it jeopardized the multinationals setting up in their parish. Ironically the USA were probably the one country that could tax the corporates a sensible amount because people wanted to trade there so badly. However, with the current moron at the helm over there he is seeking to redress this and  in his usual overreacting manner giving a big f**k You to everyone else.

Yeah right, always blame the legislators and not the people who know what the law is about and the spirit of the laws and just choose to completely disregard what is right. It's exactly the same principle with those people who use loopholes in the rules of gaelic games to get players off when they are completely guilty and deserve punishment. These papers show that there are always people who will try to get round the laws no matter how tightly they are written and society should be ostracising these people.

[Avondhu star]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

[Therealdonald]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

Typical middle-class generalisation there.

[stew]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.

[Asal Mor]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

Most people on benefits aren't wasters. They're people with f**k all opportunity. They have the choice of working some sh!t job for a pittance or getting a pittance for doing nothing. Sometimes they could end up with less if they work, especially if it means loss of rent allowance. If they had a chance to earn a decent standard of living they'd jump at it. I have more sympathy for the working poor than the unemployed poor but either way, the system is cruel.

[lenny]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.

These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.

[imtommygunn]

The tories will continue to take from the poor. What would they have done with the money anyway. They are stripping the nhs for their own personal gains and even selling of buildings and making money of them ( from what i can gauge this would actually be private money). Even if they had more money they still wouldn't put it into these services.

While these people shouldn't get away with this i very much doubt the tories are overly bothered. These are the kind of people who are their donors.

I also see rumours that may is ,or was, worried that her husband may have been caught in it.

[manfromdelmonte]

you shouldn't be able to avoid paying your fair share of taxes, just because you are super rich and can afford the best legal and accounting advice and can move your wealth between different jurisdictions

[TabClear]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.

These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.

Are you for real? The "spirit" of tax law? It's not somebody coughing  on the downswing in golf ffs. It shouldn't be subjective and It shouldn't be up to companies to interpret what the law was "supposed" to do.  If the tax authorities or governments wanted to they could make legislation much more unambiguous, for whatever reason they don't.

[Avondhu star]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

Typical middle-class generalisation there.

Or maybe the opinion of someone who hits the road around 6.30 every morning while the local scum on benefits are sleeping off their Dutch Gold.
Of course the Shinners defend the dole merchants rather than the tax payer

[Wildweasel74]

Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything

if someone can avoid it fair play to them, we still get taxed the same regardless

if the govt would go after google, starbucks, amazon, microsoft and all the multi nationals and not just small individual person (although rich ones) maybe
the common person wouldn't feel so hard done by.

Irish govt as big an offender as anybody, to the point then didn't want the multi billion dollar tax fine issued from the EC, its not as if we couldn't do with the money

[armaghniac]

Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything

That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?

[lenny]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.

These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.

Are you for real? The "spirit" of tax law? It's not somebody coughing  on the downswing in golf ffs. It shouldn't be subjective and It shouldn't be up to companies to interpret what the law was "supposed" to do.  If the tax authorities or governments wanted to they could make legislation much more unambiguous, for whatever reason they don't.

Ah sure you're probably right. We'll all take that attitude and f**k the health service and education. The spirit of the law is why we don't you p***k. I'm glad to pay taxes and contribute to society and the majority of people I'm pretty sure feel the same.

[magpie seanie]

Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything

That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?

I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.

[TabClear]

Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.

That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more

It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.

These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.

Are you for real? The "spirit" of tax law? It's not somebody coughing  on the downswing in golf ffs. It shouldn't be subjective and It shouldn't be up to companies to interpret what the law was "supposed" to do.  If the tax authorities or governments wanted to they could make legislation much more unambiguous, for whatever reason they don't.

Ah sure you're probably right. We'll all take that attitude and f**k the health service and education. The spirit of the law is why we don't you p***k. I'm glad to pay taxes and contribute to society and the majority of people I'm pretty sure feel the same.

I don't even know where to start with that.  People pay taxes because it is the law. No spirit involved.  These companies as far as I can see have mainly operated within the law. If the taxes raised aren't enough to cover the public services a government needs they raise more taxes by increasing rates or closing loopholes. I.e something the people drafting the legislation can control.  You certainly don't depend on the goodwill of every company to interpret legislation you drafted.