Apple's data centre in Athenry

[magpie seanie]

We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.

Sorry to nit-pick but isn't the ECB the lender of last resort in the Eurozone?

Who bailed out Anglo and AIB?
Lender of Last Resort does what it says on the tin.

Lender of last resort was the Irish taxpayer.

[Eamonnca1]

While Apple and co are big tax evaders, it is the rest of the world they are scamming, including the US and Europe. By enabling it, we are benefiting - they are still one of our biggest tax payers and employers and were early investors in Ireland. We cannot however see that and we'll ultimately be the authors of our own misfortune. We are only being squeezed by Europe, US and international media because the tax being avoided is on profits outside our territory. Our tax laws are terrible for the rest of the world. So effing what. If they were good for the world, they would not be in lil old Ireland.

Point of order: If it's illegal then it's "evasion." If it's legal then it's "avoidance."

But yes. Running the place as a tax haven is not sustainable.

[Syferus]

No, it's pretty sustainable given we also have unique advantages being the only English speaking member of the EU and a highly skilled workforce to meet the demands of these high-skilled jobs.

In general our pro-business approach has been a massive success in high-value industries like technology, although being so pro-business also enabled the property boom and bust. We're the envy of many countries, including our EU partners who tried their dambedest to use the bailout to get us to cave on our corporation tax and thankfully failed miserably.

Our biggest mistake would be concerning ourselves with the opinions of vested interests like US sentators or the EU. I couldn't give a toss what any journalist thinks about our tax system and nor, I imagine, do the government. We need someone to mow the lawn, not landscape the garden.

[Hound]

Maybe i am missing a point here but why would Apple campaign for the cap to be widened to all IP ?

Perhaps because Apple have moved the old IP elsewhere, but want to bring some new IP?

To widen the 80% cap to all IP will mean Apple will pay more tax in Ireland. That's now what they want. They don't want bad publicity so they feel a low sustainable tax rate is much better than paying no tax or minimal tax from an optical point of view. 

[Hound]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

[seafoid]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

[TabClear]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.

[seafoid]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.

Companies are being systematically stripped of cash. Around $6bn per year in the top 500 US companies. Revenues have been flat going back 5 years for most MNCs.

A big drop in marketing spending from some of the world's largest consumer products companies forced leading ad agency WPP to issue its second sales warning of the year in august

The top 50 global consumer goods companies have falling revenues. Nestlé is under pressure to pay a higher dividend. It is happening everywhere.

[TabClear]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.

Companies are being systematically stripped of cash. Around $6bn per year in the top 500 US companies. Revenues have been flat going back 5 years for most MNCs.

A big drop in marketing spending from some of the world's largest consumer products companies forced leading ad agency WPP to issue its second sales warning of the year in august

The top 50 global consumer goods companies have falling revenues. Nestlé is under pressure to pay a higher dividend. It is happening everywhere.

Not disputing that companies are under pressure to generate cash.  But if the long term plan stacks up this is a good thing.  If they cant demonstrate to investors that they can provide a return they can't raise money for investment when needed. 

There is more focus on cost savings than revenue growth in recent years which does cause issues at a macro economic level. As for WPP they could take a look at Martin Sorrel''s remuneration package to save a few quid!

[Tony Baloney]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.

Companies are being systematically stripped of cash. Around $6bn per year in the top 500 US companies. Revenues have been flat going back 5 years for most MNCs.

A big drop in marketing spending from some of the world's largest consumer products companies forced leading ad agency WPP to issue its second sales warning of the year in august

The top 50 global consumer goods companies have falling revenues. Nestlé is under pressure to pay a higher dividend. It is happening everywhere.

Not disputing that companies are under pressure to generate cash.  But if the long term plan stacks up this is a good thing.  If they cant demonstrate to investors that they can provide a return they can't raise money for investment when needed. 

There is more focus on cost savings than revenue growth in recent years which does cause issues at a macro economic level. As for WPP they could take a look at Martin Sorrel''s remuneration package to save a few quid!

There was a headline earlier in the year saying that Martin Sorrell's FY16-17 salary had "plunged" from £70 million to £48 million  I'll take it if he doesn't want it!

[TabClear]

There was a headline earlier in the year saying that Martin Sorrell's FY16-17 salary had "plunged" from £70 million to £48 million  I'll take it if he doesn't want it!

I know. Poor Martin. 

[Hound]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.

[magpie seanie]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.

Yes but Trump is going to slash US CT and that's what all these big corporations are waiting for. They'll be able to pull in funds at a vastly reduced tax rate if this bozo gets his way and I'm pretty sure this is the main reason he has got elected. Bizarrely, if this happens, cash will flood back into the US and might result in more jobs there.......Trump is a genius.

[Syferus]

Trump can barely pass wind let alone tax reform.

[seafoid]

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.

The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.

They can use capital based in the US to pay dividends and buybacks. Money is fungible. The key point for Apple is that it is not taxed.

US wealth distribution :

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/557ef766ecad04fe50a257cd-960/